426 réponses à ce sujet

[ReubenLiew]

YMMV?

[Creature 1]

seramiran wrote...
Boyscouts are a pain in the long-run and I have that niggling doubt about him from the beginning. Side-by-side with the good stuff, but there, niggling, poking at me, warning me that he's gonna be a disappointment in the end.

Perhaps making it worse is that he's *not* really a boy scout.  He grumps at you if you do things that are wrong, but he never really does anything about it. 

[PunkNouveau13]

Also for a female character (imo) he's the first companion you get to know and start a relationship with, and I love it whenever he says "Your desire is my command" *sigh*

[AnniLau]

DariusKalera wrote...

Endearing: No.  Him being endearing would not cause me to leave him in camp all the time nor would it be so easy for me to let Loghain live.

I find him incredibly endearing and keep him in my party at all times unless I'm running around trying to trigger party chat with some of the other Companions. I've yet to let Loghain live and probably only will in the future for the achievements.

Funny:  Not really.  Not in my opinion at least but every one has a different sense of humor.

He definitely suits my sense of humor.

Honest: Absolutely not.  He lies to the PC pretty much from the beginning and only tells the truth when you find it out for yourself and corner him on it.

Er, when? If you're talking about the royal bastard thing, he volunteers that info all on his own, although you do have the option to question him on why he didn't mention it sooner. Personally, I understand his reasons for keeping it to himself until he got to know the PC better.

Hero:  Heroes do not ditch out on their party when things do not go their way, nor do they throw a fit when it happens.  Oghren is much more of a hero than Alistair is. 

I think the entire party is heroic for even considering doing any of this. Does Alistair see things in pretty black-and-white terms (understandable with his upbringing) and react in an immature manner in the heat of the moment? Sure, but that doesn't negate everything that's gone before and I bet he regrets it  eventually.

[errant_knight]

Have the people who have such a problem with Alistair's possible reaction at Landsmeet truly never gotten so angry that they said or did something that was against their best interests, walked away from something that had worth? Never felt so hurt/betrayed that they said something that might seem unforgivable, or cut off their nose to spite their face? It seems unlikely, but perhaps I just have a particularly hot temper.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 janvier 2010 - 06:30 .

[ejoslin]

AnniLau wrote...

I think the entire party is heroic for even considering doing any of this. Does Alistair see things in pretty black-and-white terms (understandable with his upbringing) and react in an immature manner in the heat of the moment? Sure, but that doesn't negate everything that's gone before and I bet he regrets it  eventually.

Heh, if he doesn't marry Anora you can find out just how much he does end up regretting it.  It ruins his life, even moreso than if the PC sacrifices herself if he ever loved her.

[DariusKalera]

AnniLau wrote...

Honest: Absolutely not.  He lies to the PC pretty much from the beginning and only tells the truth when you find it out for yourself and corner him on it.

Er, when? If you're talking about the royal bastard thing, he volunteers that info all on his own, although you do have the option to question him on why he didn't mention it sooner. Personally, I understand his reasons for keeping it to himself until he got to know the PC better.

Hero:  Heroes do not ditch out on their party when things do not go their way, nor do they throw a fit when it happens.  Oghren is much more of a hero than Alistair is. 

I think the entire party is heroic for even considering doing any of this. Does Alistair see things in pretty black-and-white terms (understandable with his upbringing) and react in an immature manner in the heat of the moment? Sure, but that doesn't negate everything that's gone before and I bet he regrets it  eventually.

Then we have had two very different experiences during our play throughs.  He will not mention any thing at all about being Maric's son, to me at least, until I have saved Eamon and dug up the dirt on him.  At which point I get a dialogue option that goes something like "So when were you going to tell me that you were the king's son?"

Then he goes on saying he kept it a secret because he wanted you to like him for being him, not for being an heir.

If a person's heroic actions in the past are not negated by new less than heroic actions in the present, then Loghain is still a hero.

[nyxocity]

AnniLau wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

Endearing: No.  Him being endearing would not cause me to leave him in camp all the time nor would it be so easy for me to let Loghain live.

I find him incredibly endearing and keep him in my party at all times unless I'm running around trying to trigger party chat with some of the other Companions. I've yet to let Loghain live and probably only will in the future for the achievements.

Funny:  Not really.  Not in my opinion at least but every one has a different sense of humor.

He definitely suits my sense of humor.

Honest: Absolutely not.  He lies to the PC pretty much from the beginning and only tells the truth when you find it out for yourself and corner him on it.

Er, when? If you're talking about the royal bastard thing, he volunteers that info all on his own, although you do have the option to question him on why he didn't mention it sooner. Personally, I understand his reasons for keeping it to himself until he got to know the PC better.

Hero:  Heroes do not ditch out on their party when things do not go their way, nor do they throw a fit when it happens.  Oghren is much more of a hero than Alistair is. 

I think the entire party is heroic for even considering doing any of this. Does Alistair see things in pretty black-and-white terms (understandable with his upbringing) and react in an immature manner in the heat of the moment? Sure, but that doesn't negate everything that's gone before and I bet he regrets it  eventually.

This. Alistair is always my first picked party member whenever I go anywhere. Not just for his dialogue options and funny commentary (You smell great! Is that death you're wearing? It really suits you.) but because he makes an awesome tank if you build up his strength, dex and con and keep building on his sword and board skills. I keep him as my second even when I'm playing a warrior. This all holds true even when I'm playing a male character.

Agreed. He does withold info for his own reasons which are understandable, but he also volunteers it the second it might become important.

The traditional hero DOES see things in black and white; this is usually what makes them a hero. I completely understand his anger at sparing Loghain after everything Loghain has done. I'm not really sure how a human noble or a city elf COULD spare Loghain when Howe is Loghain's right hand man and Howe is directly responsible for a lot of pain on the PC's part. I've yet to spare Loghain, myself and I'm not sure I ever could. But then I tend to play traditional heroes, and in their minds there's really no forgiveness for Loghain for abandoning everyone at Ostagar. He should have told them he wouldn't support them if he wasn't going to. Not deceive them and leave them to die. So yeah, I'm with Alistair on that one.

[AnniLau]

DariusKalera wrote...

Then we have had two very different experiences during our play throughs.  He will not mention any thing at all about being Maric's son, to me at least, until I have saved Eamon and dug up the dirt on him.  At which point I get a dialogue option that goes something like "So when were you going to tell me that you were the king's son?"

Try talking to him? I mean, what reason does he have to share the biggest secret of his life with you if you aren't at least friendly? He's always confessed it voluntarily to me before we made it to Redcliffe, even when I wasn't romancing him.

If a person's heroic actions in the past are not negated by new less than heroic actions in the present, then Loghain is still a hero.

Right, because having a snit at an inopportune moment is comparable to abandoning your king in battle, plunging the country into civil war during a Blight, then cheerfully trying to kill the only people who have a chance of stopping said Blight. Not to mention the whole selling people into slavery thing...

Even so, that doesn't invalidate Loghain's heroism in the past.

Modifié par AnniLau, 22 janvier 2010 - 08:29 .

[nyxocity]

DariusKalera wrote...

Then we have had two very different experiences during our play throughs.  He will not mention any thing at all about being Maric's son, to me at least, until I have saved Eamon and dug up the dirt on him.  At which point I get a dialogue option that goes something like "So when were you going to tell me that you were the king's son?"

Then he goes on saying he kept it a secret because he wanted you to like him for being him, not for being an heir.

If a person's heroic actions in the past are not negated by new less than heroic actions in the present, then Loghain is still a hero.

Then it might be because you never talk to him to get his approval rating up high enough to tell you voluntarily. I've never not had him tell me the second we enter Redcliffe.

Mmm. I think think the difference is that Loghain plotted to do what he has done, has done questionable things (as pointed out above). It doesn't negate his past, but he is not that person anymore. It's true that Alistair would no longer be that heroic person if he quits all together, but being as I've never seen fit to spare Loghain I've never had to experience that. The very reason I do not spare Loghain is because I agree with Alistair, and I wouldn't blame Alistair for leaving one bit if I did spare him. The only thing I take issue with is that he stops fighting the Blight altogether if this happens. I guess it just cuts the heart out of him to see the PC spare Loghain after everything he's endured up to this point.

[Caelamia]

Another one of these topics? Someone needs to start a "Why I hate Morrigan" or "What do guys see in the Witch of the Wilds" topic up to even it out a little. 



I love Alistair, but I realise that many people also hate him. There are any number of reasons for this and everyone is entitled to an opinion. For example, I don't get why some women go crazy over Cullen or Teagan, so there you go. Different things appeal to different people.

In the end, we just have to be happy we've been given such immerseful characters and stories to get into these discussions with.

[Ilvra]

"I hate Alistair" also seems to have as its counterpart "and I love Loghain." I'm actually quite impressed with both of them, for different reasons. I don't find Loghain particularly sympathetic, but he's a very well-rounded, well-written character, and I do find him fascinating. Matter of fact, I find most of the major characters interesting, and I'd love to hold a dinner party and invite them all. Wouldn't that be a hoot -- I'd have to manage the seating arrangements damned carefully, though.

My PCs, on the other hand, have different opinions than I do, and have difficulty finding any reason to let Loghain live, but that's the roleplay and not the roleplayer.

Modifié par Ilvra, 22 janvier 2010 - 08:58 .

[SusanStoHelit]

AnniLau wrote...

Try talking to him? I mean, what reason does he have to share the biggest secret of his life with you if you aren't at least friendly? He's always confessed it voluntarily to me before we made it to Redcliffe, even when I wasn't romancing him.

Yep, he's done this with all my pcs so far, even the male ones. It has nothing to do with either romance or gender, if you talk to him and get to know him, go through the dialogues with him, he always confesses before Redcliffe.

[nyxocity]

Caelamia wrote...

Another one of these topics? Someone needs to start a "Why I hate Morrigan" or "What do guys see in the Witch of the Wilds" topic up to even it out a little.

Right? I keep wondering why we rarely see this. In fact I was looking at a poll the other day for "Who do you find most interesting in the game" and Morrigan was by far the winner. I can only assume this is because the game is played by a male majority who find her hot. I mean, I don't hate her, I've even played a male who romanced her, but there's really not that much to her. She mostly keeps you at a distance, and does have moments that get somewhat emotional, but I can't say I ever felt like I really got to know her or connected with her.

And yes, everyone's mileage varies. I'm really pleased that they've created such interesting characters that we can have these kinds of discussions about them.

[nyxocity]

Ilvra wrote...

"I hate Alistair" also seems to have as its counterpart "and I love Loghain." I'm actually quite impressed with both of them, for different reasons. I don't find Loghain particularly sympathetic, but he's a very well-rounded, well-written character, and I do find him fascinating. Matter of fact, I find most of the major characters interesting, and I'd love to hold a dinner party and invite them all. Wouldn't that be a hoot -- I'd have to manage the seating arrangements damned carefully, though.

My PCs, on the other hand, have different opinions than I do, and have difficulty finding any reason to let Loghain live, but that's the roleplay and not the roleplayer.

See, I've yet to let Loghain live, but from what I've read about him after he joins the party, he does seem somewhat interesting. My characters just never want to let him live. I did have a moment, just one moment the first time I played where I thought about sparing him for one split second when he tells Anora to hush and accepts his death with utter dignity and says he can go to the Maker knowing Ferelden is in my hands... and then I remembered that he abadoned everyone on the battlefield, allowed Howe to murder my characters parents etc.and nope, off with his head.

[Ilvra]

thenyxie wrote...

Ilvra wrote...

"I hate Alistair" also seems to have as its counterpart "and I love Loghain." I'm actually quite impressed with both of them, for different reasons. I don't find Loghain particularly sympathetic, but he's a very well-rounded, well-written character, and I do find him fascinating. Matter of fact, I find most of the major characters interesting, and I'd love to hold a dinner party and invite them all. Wouldn't that be a hoot -- I'd have to manage the seating arrangements damned carefully, though.

My PCs, on the other hand, have different opinions than I do, and have difficulty finding any reason to let Loghain live, but that's the roleplay and not the roleplayer.

See, I've yet to let Loghain live, but from what I've read about him after he joins the party, he does seem somewhat interesting. My characters just never want to let him live. I did have a moment, just one moment the first time I played where I thought about sparing him for one split second when he tells Anora to hush and accepts his death with utter dignity and says he can go to the Maker knowing Ferelden is in my hands... and then I remembered that he abadoned everyone on the battlefield, allowed Howe to murder my characters parents etc.and nope, off with his head.

I've actually only managed to let him live once. My personal feeling is that he's an intriguing character, but not that he shouldn't have to pay for what he did. And I'm definitely not in the camp that thinks making him a hero again by sacrificing him to kill the archdemon is a punishment. I understand that viewpoint, I just don't agree with it.

The only reason I kept him alive the once was metagaming. It was a strain to pull off from an RP perspective, but  I  (not my PC, me) very much wanted to interrogate him, and there simply was no other way to do it.

[Ilvra]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Try talking to him? I mean, what reason does he have to share the biggest secret of his life with you if you aren't at least friendly? He's always confessed it voluntarily to me before we made it to Redcliffe, even when I wasn't romancing him.

Yep, he's done this with all my pcs so far, even the male ones. It has nothing to do with either romance or gender, if you talk to him and get to know him, go through the dialogues with him, he always confesses before Redcliffe.

He doesn't even have to like you. In my "Quest for the Whine" playthrough, I was doing everything I could think of to make him hate me. He was well into hostile by the time we got to Redcliffe, and he STILL told me the second we got there.

Edit: The quest failed by the way. Nope, no whine here.

Modifié par Ilvra, 22 janvier 2010 - 10:13 .

[MOTpoetryION]

Holy Moly there are like 100 more responses, someone must of did an Allister search LOL. Because the thread was already in the land of obscurity. But i finished and it still stands hes a little winer , that even an 8 year old could boss around.

He didn't even want to be king for makers sake. Right Like what guys going to pass that up. And after morrigan , Annora don't look to bad In his eyes at least . I think he even had a better cut scene then i did dammit grrrr: ) I loved the one where he cried and left at the LM .I took all the gear off him first lmao.

I want to make a response option for him . The one you want some cheese and crackers with that whine..Well i been through way worse things growing up then the little princess did . And i have no problems with showing emotions . IMO he just shows to much .

And the amount of time he was crying over Duncan was pathetic. He didn't even know they guy that long. After he started all the whining i just left him at camp after that . The bears are better tanks anyways IMO

edit: my first playthru i was friendly talking to him and he told me right when we got to redcliff . when he couldn't keep the secret any longer
 
Edit Edit:   And that was right after a convo with him about his father     PC   So  do you know  who your father is  ...cricket ...   cricket .   FROM that point on he was on   N.C  status   Nothing  Comming

Modifié par MOTpoetryION, 23 janvier 2010 - 05:04 .

[errant_knight]

thenyxie wrote...

Caelamia wrote...

Another one of these topics? Someone needs to start a "Why I hate Morrigan" or "What do guys see in the Witch of the Wilds" topic up to even it out a little.

Right? I keep wondering why we rarely see this. In fact I was looking at a poll the other day for "Who do you find most interesting in the game" and Morrigan was by far the winner. I can only assume this is because the game is played by a male majority who find her hot. I mean, I don't hate her, I've even played a male who romanced her, but there's really not that much to her. She mostly keeps you at a distance, and does have moments that get somewhat emotional, but I can't say I ever felt like I really got to know her or connected with her.

And yes, everyone's mileage varies. I'm really pleased that they've created such interesting characters that we can have these kinds of discussions about them.

Oh, there's plenty of Morrigan hate. I find the whole 'slap Morrigan' thing pretty repugnanat. I can't help but feel that the notion that it's funny to smack wonen who say things we don't like, and that Alistair isn't 'manly' enough come from the same slightly disturbing place.

[ejoslin]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Try talking to him? I mean, what reason does he have to share the biggest secret of his life with you if you aren't at least friendly? He's always confessed it voluntarily to me before we made it to Redcliffe, even when I wasn't romancing him.

Yep, he's done this with all my pcs so far, even the male ones. It has nothing to do with either romance or gender, if you talk to him and get to know him, go through the dialogues with him, he always confesses before Redcliffe.

Heh, I just went to Redcliff with him with an approval of -68 (yes, negative 68, oh, he hates my city elf, who in turns hates all male humans for obvious reasons) and Alistair confessed.  You do need him in the party, though.  It doesn't matter what your approval is, if he's in your party the first time you go to Redcliff, he confesses, but if he isn't, he doesn't.

Edit: Incidentally, it's far easier to get Alistair to negative 100 than positive 100.  After Redcliff was done, I had max hostility, and i probably would have gone lower had that been possible.  Now the trick is seeing if I can get him back to positive.  I have my doubts.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 janvier 2010 - 09:08 .

[JKJEDIKNIGHT]

Women love Alistair because he's a "sensitive guy" that by the end of the game, they can tell him to be a man and he does. He's the best of both worlds. Plus, they get to tell him what to do all game long.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thenyxie wrote...
Then it might be because you never talk to him to get his approval rating up high enough to tell you voluntarily. I've never not had him tell me the second we enter Redcliffe.

I think some people keep him in the camp all the time and don't bring him along. And then they wonder why he
doesn't tell them anything.

***

The difference between Al and Loghian is that Al doesn't really murder, kill or try to murder kill nor does he outright betray anyone. And walking out with a notice is NOT a betraly. He tells you beforehand.

If you consider not fighting the blight betrayl, then you should hunt down every ferelden man and woman who fled the blight and kill them.

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Incidentally, it's far easier to get Alistair to negative 100 than positive 100.  After Redcliff was done, I had max hostility, and i probably would have gone lower had that been possible.  Now the trick is seeing if I can get him back to positive.  I have my doubts.

That would depend entirely on your character and whether you keep him in your party. I gave him only one gift in Lothering to have him at 100 by the start of the urn quest.  He went up or down a few times after that, but it balanced out with him approving more than disapproving. That's doing it in the order suggested: Lothering, Redcliff, Mage's circle to get help with Conner, back to Redcliff with mages, Urn. Next playthrough, I'm only going to give any of the characters the plot gifts and see how that works. I suspect that will only be a problem with Morrigan, and to make it work, I'll have to leave her in camp much more than usual.

[ejoslin]

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Incidentally, it's far easier to get Alistair to negative 100 than positive 100.  After Redcliff was done, I had max hostility, and i probably would have gone lower had that been possible.  Now the trick is seeing if I can get him back to positive.  I have my doubts.

That would depend entirely on your character and whether you keep him in your party. I gave him only one gift in Lothering to have him at 100 by the start of the urn quest.  He went up or down a few times after that, but it balanced out with him approving more than disapproving. That's doing it in the order suggested: Lothering, Redcliff, Mage's circle to get help with Conner, back to Redcliff with mages, Urn. Next playthrough, I'm only going to give any of the characters the plot gifts and see how that works. I suspect that will only be a problem with Morrigan, and to make it work, I'll have to leave her in camp much more than usual.

But Redcliff is the first place I went . . .  

Edit: I have on every other play through gotten Alistair max approval.  This is the first time I had him maxed the other direction.  It truly is FAR easier.  Any gap you may have by the end of Redcliff can soon be fixed if you had Isolde kill Connor and answer in ways to tick him off.  

Second edit: The voice acting is absolutely fabulous.  I've for the most part only heard the happy, cheery side of everyone.  Oh, when they hate you, it's even more powerful.  Just amazing.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 janvier 2010 - 09:58 .

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Incidentally, it's far easier to get Alistair to negative 100 than positive 100.  After Redcliff was done, I had max hostility, and i probably would have gone lower had that been possible.  Now the trick is seeing if I can get him back to positive.  I have my doubts.

That would depend entirely on your character and whether you keep him in your party. I gave him only one gift in Lothering to have him at 100 by the start of the urn quest.  He went up or down a few times after that, but it balanced out with him approving more than disapproving. That's doing it in the order suggested: Lothering, Redcliff, Mage's circle to get help with Conner, back to Redcliff with mages, Urn. Next playthrough, I'm only going to give any of the characters the plot gifts and see how that works. I suspect that will only be a problem with Morrigan, and to make it work, I'll have to leave her in camp much more than usual.

But Redcliff is the first place I went . . .  

Edit: I have on every other play through gotten Alistair max approval.  This is the first time I had him maxed the other direction.  It truly is FAR easier.  Any gap you may have by the end of Redcliff can soon be fixed if you had Isolde kill Connor and answer in ways to tick him off.  

Second edit: The voice acting is absolutely fabulous.  I've for the most part only heard the happy, cheery side of everyone.  Oh, when they hate you, it's even more powerful.  Just amazing.

I guess I don't know what you mean by easier. It sounds like we did things in the same order, and I made no particular effort, making all the choices I would have made anyway, made almost no use of gifts.... What could be easier?  It seems to me that all you can really say is that with a different kind of character, it's just as easy to get him to negative 100.

I can well believe the second edit. I've only delved into a little of that, out of curiosity, and I felt so bad I immediately reloaded! I'm don't think I can take it, especially when, on a player level, I think Alistair is right, and I'm wrong.

Modifié par errant_knight, 23 janvier 2010 - 10:03 .