426 réponses à ce sujet

[_Aine_]

I much of Alistair's insecurity is based on a fear of failing people because he *cares* so much rather than not wanting to lead. He is afraid he will fail, and so follows as its safe for him, and in many respects, he is happy with this. He is smarter than many give him credit for, he is just ruled heavily by his heart, but he lets his sense of duty and responsibility rule over even that.



Spoilerific:



A person who does not see the good in Alistair, needs to make a female elf pc, harden him, make him King and marry Anora, get dumped for all the right crappy wrong reasons and then take him to the final battle and say you are going to kill the archdemon yourself after saying you still love him. *sniff*



NEVER have I been so gutted Yes I know it's a video game! And yet still there was I, feeling absolutely in the game, shamed at the depth and meaning in all of these very emotionally charged final moments. You know in the Dalish origin where Zathrian is kneeling and says to the Lady of the Forest " Spirit, you shame me." (or something like that) *that* is how I think that was meant. No matter what, I can't look at Alistair the same way again, and I have played many many playthroughs that should have worked up a callous in that regard, but it didnt FANTASTIC ending, the kind where you want to cry and mope for a while but have to admit that it was just SO well done. Cheers to Alistair, and to the Bioware team that did absolute justice to the guy in the end.

[gatekeeper780]

I've only done the final battle with refusing Morrigan's help once, and I could not bring myself to let Alistair sacrifice himself. I don't understand why so many people seem to dislike him.



I totally get what you are saying about being in the moment while in the game. The first time I romanced him, and then he broke it off with me due to his sense of duty, I was devastated too. He is a very well written character, and so very easy to fall for.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

In my dwarf noble playthrough, I did not romance Alistair at all, and was quite mean to him, since I was playing a ruthless, cold ****. That playthrough, while fun, had the least emotional involvement for me. About the only really nice part to it was kissing and romancing Zevran.



But a game with no Alistair love just seems...kinda empty, and difficult for me to get deeply immersed in.



Even more so since she spared Loghain and forced Alistair to marry his shrew daughter. It just isn't the same. Alistair just....rocks.

[TripLight]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

In my dwarf noble playthrough, I did not romance Alistair at all, and was quite mean to him, since I was playing a ruthless, cold ****. That playthrough, while fun, had the least emotional involvement for me. About the only really nice part to it was kissing and romancing Zevran.

But a game with no Alistair love just seems...kinda empty, and difficult for me to get deeply immersed in.

Even more so since she spared Loghain and forced Alistair to marry his shrew daughter. It just isn't the same. Alistair just....rocks.

Exactly:pinched:! You hit the nail on the head. It's the reason why I can't romance anyone except Alistair.

[ejoslin]

*grin* I have the same feeling about the Zevran romance. It's funny how things just hit people differently.

I may be one of the few women who HATES the Alistair proposition. There's no talk of love beforehand, no talk of commitment, just Alistair wanting to lose his virginity to the Warden in the camp, and the line, "Even though I'm not human like you?" "Especially because of that," makes me feel like the warden is an object. I far prefer the alternative to that, when he hits love AFTER you two have been in the tent. It's far sweeter and far more loving.

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 février 2010 - 05:29 .

[Gilded Age]

errant_knight wrote...

Y'know I'm certain that there are as many people who like Alistair as like the other characters. In fact given what I see on other forums and on blogs, more. And yet, while there are multiple threads devoted to fandom of Zevran, and less prolific, but still frequent threads devoted to Leiliana and Morrigan, there are few attempts to discuss Alistair anymore. Now why do you suppose that is? Could it be that it's impossible to start such a thread or have any such discussion at all without a tidal wave of mockery and character hate? I suppose the real question is, why do people feel such a need to do that at the expense of others?

Wait -- what?  Like you said, in and outside of Bioware Social, Alistair is an extremely popular character.  I've never seen a "tidal wave of mockery and character hate" in regards to him; I mean, it's about equal to that of the other companions.  Some people like him, others don't.

In the end, though, Alistair has an entire, very busy Livejournal community devoted entirely to him, has copious amounts of fan art on Deviant Art and he's the most popular character on Fanfiction.net to write fanfic about.  He's gotten a lot of love in the fandom. 

Modifié par Gilded Age, 07 février 2010 - 05:40 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

*grin* I have the same feeling about the Zevran romance. It's funny how things just hit people differently.

I may be one of the few women who HATES the Alistair proposition. There's no talk of love beforehand, no talk of commitment, just Alistair wanting to lose his virginity to the Warden in the camp, and the line, "Even though I'm not human like you?" "Especially because of that," makes me feel like the warden is an object. I far prefer the alternative to that, when he hits love AFTER you two have been in the tent. It's far sweeter and far more loving.

After reading the novels, I'm thinking the Theirin men just have a thing for elves.    And they made it a generic line so it could be used for dwarves, too.

And I agree, having run the Alistair romance a few times, it is sweeter when you seduce him first.  He still fumbles a lot, but at least you've helped him with one big obstacle.

[errant_knight]

Gilded Age wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Y'know I'm certain that there are as many people who like Alistair as like the other characters. In fact given what I see on other forums and on blogs, more. And yet, while there are multiple threads devoted to fandom of Zevran, and less prolific, but still frequent threads devoted to Leiliana and Morrigan, there are few attempts to discuss Alistair anymore. Now why do you suppose that is? Could it be that it's impossible to start such a thread or have any such discussion at all without a tidal wave of mockery and character hate? I suppose the real question is, why do people feel such a need to do that at the expense of others?

Wait -- what?  Like you said, in and outside of Bioware Social, Alistair is an extremely popular character.  I've never seen a "tidal wave of mockery and character hate" in regards to him; I mean, it's about equal to that of the other companions.  Some people like him, others don't.

In the end, though, Alistair has an entire, very busy Livejournal community devoted entirely to him, has copious amounts of fan art on Deviant Art and he's the most popular character on Fanfiction.net to write fanfic about.  He's gotten a lot of love in the fandom. 

Yes, which makes the vitrol that's appeared here so very odd.... I guess you've just been lucky enough to miss the worst of it.

[Gilded Age]

errant_knight wrote...
Yes, which makes the vitrol that's appeared here so very odd.... I guess you've just been lucky enough to miss the worst of it.

Hopefully, I'll keep on missing it!    But, I really think that Bioware Social isn't a true reflection of fandom consensus.  The most vocal posters here are usually hating on stuff -- characters, gameplay mechanics, what not.  Really, if you look at the Mass Effect boards, for example, it's nothing but posts from people about how much the game sucks...and everyone else, everywhere, is pretty much in universal consensus that the game is excellent.

I imagine it's the same thing for Alistair and DAO...

[RobinMichelleB]

ejoslin wrote...

I may be one of the few women who HATES the Alistair proposition. There's no talk of love beforehand, no talk of commitment, just Alistair wanting to lose his virginity to the Warden in the camp, and the line, "Even though I'm not human like you?" "Especially because of that," makes me feel like the warden is an object. I far prefer the alternative to that, when he hits love AFTER you two have been in the tent. It's far sweeter and far more loving.

It was very sweet on my HNF, but maybe because she was an HNF... LoL I think I was sitting in front of the TV with little hearts floating around my head and my boyfriend glowering behind me. LoL He didn't say I love you until afterwards, but we had both clearly implied to each other beforehand that that was how we felt.

That said, I am looking forward to my next character, who will romance Zevran. I have heard a lot of good things about it, and I am excited, even though it will be hard to leave Alistair alone!

[ejoslin]

RobinMichelleB wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I may be one of the few women who HATES the Alistair proposition. There's no talk of love beforehand, no talk of commitment, just Alistair wanting to lose his virginity to the Warden in the camp, and the line, "Even though I'm not human like you?" "Especially because of that," makes me feel like the warden is an object. I far prefer the alternative to that, when he hits love AFTER you two have been in the tent. It's far sweeter and far more loving.

It was very sweet on my HNF, but maybe because she was an HNF... LoL I think I was sitting in front of the TV with little hearts floating around my head and my boyfriend glowering behind me. LoL He didn't say I love you until afterwards, but we had both clearly implied to each other beforehand that that was how we felt.

That said, I am looking forward to my next character, who will romance Zevran. I have heard a lot of good things about it, and I am excited, even though it will be hard to leave Alistair alone!

You don't need to leave Alistair alone -- you can complete the Alistair romance AND complete the Zevran romance, IF you break up with Alistair.  Well, complete the Alistair romance without going through the landsmeet part.  You can get to 100 love, get the "where are we going speech."  You actually CAN do the landsmeet part, but i like the Zevran romance done slowly as well. 


The one thing you cannot do is finish the Zevran romance while having anyone else at 71+ adore or love.  There are people who like having two or three of the romance partners at 100 love at the end and then avoid talking to the characters.  But the Zevran  romance, unlike the Leliana one, requires initiating conversation with Zevran at the end.  Specifically, asking him to your tent.

[Chasseresse]

I TRIED getting into the Zevran romance and just wasn't "feeling it", lol. I'm a straight female irl and I found the gay Leliana romance far preferable to Zev's, not sure what is so off-putting about him but... bleh. I gave up on the character that I had planned to go the Zev route with after I got sick of him, had instead wound up with Leli and was too far into the playthrough and too jaded to start in with Al.



It was sooo nice making a new character, rushing through the starter quests and once at Ostagar, practically knocking both Cailan and Duncan down in my rush to go give an exuberant HI to my favorite character.

[ejoslin]

Zevran is definitely not to everyone's tastes, especially since it ends so late in the game. He is a tough character to get to know, and you have to be willing to take some approval loss in conversations to get some better insights into his views on being an assassin and such. If you just go for maximum approval, saying "OOOOOH! I love poison, I love violence, I want to kill kill kill" you won't get his most interesting or insightful answers (nor will nasty or snobby answers get that either). But you can find out, for instance, that being cold does not come naturally to him. You can learn that he has deep regrets, and that he wants out of the life he's in, not to just continue doing it in a new place.



But you have to be willing to dig, to take the approval dings (which are very easy to make up). And then you also have to be willing to accept the full love and devotion if your warden does win his heart, which can also be off putting. I like the romance, every gritty part of it, and I love learning, as you do with Leliana as well, that things are not all as they seem on the surface. I constantly see people here refer to Leliana as seeking redemption, but if you talk to her, you find out she LOVES killing men, she misses her old life and found the Chantry boring. You see her torn to shreds and lying at the Gauntlet and learn some very interesting things about her and her beliefs.



Leliana chose the life of a bard -- she had all sorts of options, but she loved the excitement, the hunt. Zevran was a slave, bought as a very young child after being in a **** house; being an assassin was all he knew at the point when the warden picked him up. It was a better life than most elves ever got a shot at -- of course he enjoyed it. But if you dig deeper, you learn that since he was given a chance, he wants to begin again. And as cold and as amoral as he seems, there are times he is by far the most compassionate person in your party. And he is by far the most loyal, provided you take the time to get to know him.



Anyway, I truly do understand why people don't like the Zevran romance. It does start off shallow (though not as shallow as you may believe), and he has some very harsh and ugly things to say. You don't get the beautiful words that you get with Alistair and Leliana, that is true. I find what you do end up getting far better, but that's not for everyone.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I dunno. I haven't really gotten far as an elf, and personally, I have no desire to play as an elf. Dwarves, yes, I've played them. But I don't fond anything interwsting or compelling as an elf, so I haven't played as one very far. I'm ne of the few on this forum that has no real elf love, as far as PC's gameplay goes.



I've romanced Alistair as a human, both mage and noble. I romanced him as a dwarf commoner. In all playthroughs, even being dumped, i found that particular romance to be...well...fullfilling. Even the dump part, if you don't harden him, or if you do, it doesn't matter. It still has far more emotional impact.



The Zevran romance is fun. And eventually, it ends up quite serious and involved. Quite devoted. For those who think the Zevran romance is just fun and games in your tent, you haven't truly explored all. Our little kinky elf assassin has far more to his character than is let on. And honestly, I think the Zevran romance is a very interesting and rather passionate experience. I get annoyed by people who simply decide top write him off and kill him because he's "a ******" or some other nonsense. Whether playing a male or female, whether you want to love him or befriend him, Zevran is an awesome addition to a party. I've never killed him once, and have never regretted letting him join.



Yet dear Alistair...even at his worst, possessess a quirlkieness and uniqueness of character that is so very alluring and inticing, especially in the annoyingly macho world of video games. With all it's highs and lows, the Alistair romance is, in my opinion, the most fulfilling in game. And, for me, the most intense, because it is such a fragile, yet beautiful thing to experience. Perhaps it is because he is not unlike some of the people in my life I have cherished most, who were intensely emotional and deeply flawed, marked by their past yet willing to carry a certain youthful and innocent humor with them.



In the end, though, thick and thin, I have to admit a certain preference for Alistair. Like i said...he just...rocks, and in the end, I find romancing him and the consequences slightly more preferable to the end result of romancing Zevy. For numerous, difficult to describe reasons.



I still will defend Zev from people who call him "greasy" or "scummy", because that is simply not the case.

[Sarielle]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I dunno. I haven't really gotten far as an elf, and personally, I have no desire to play as an elf. Dwarves, yes, I've played them. But I don't fond anything interwsting or compelling as an elf, so I haven't played as one very far. I'm ne of the few on this forum that has no real elf love, as far as PC's gameplay goes.

Me either, honestly. Chloe is one because I wanted her to be short. -shrug- I did really enjoy the origin after I played it, though.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarielle wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I dunno. I haven't really gotten far as an elf, and personally, I have no desire to play as an elf. Dwarves, yes, I've played them. But I don't fond anything interwsting or compelling as an elf, so I haven't played as one very far. I'm ne of the few on this forum that has no real elf love, as far as PC's gameplay goes.

Me either, honestly. Chloe is one because I wanted her to be short. -shrug- I did really enjoy the origin after I played it, though.

The origin was alright, but beyond that, i couldn't really get into playing an elf, of either origin. I found it easier to play as, and sympathize more with dwarves, who basically have do deal with darkspawn, politics, and class/caste as a matter of existance.

In mage origins, I always play as a human. All my mages are human. It just seems to work better, from an RPG stance.

Anything else, I play as a human noble or a dwarf, noble or common. Just a personal preference for myself, i think.

[Sarielle]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I dunno. I haven't really gotten far as an elf, and personally, I have no desire to play as an elf. Dwarves, yes, I've played them. But I don't fond anything interwsting or compelling as an elf, so I haven't played as one very far. I'm ne of the few on this forum that has no real elf love, as far as PC's gameplay goes.

Me either, honestly. Chloe is one because I wanted her to be short. -shrug- I did really enjoy the origin after I played it, though.

The origin was alright, but beyond that, i couldn't really get into playing an elf, of either origin. I found it easier to play as, and sympathize more with dwarves, who basically have do deal with darkspawn, politics, and class/caste as a matter of existance.

In mage origins, I always play as a human. All my mages are human. It just seems to work better, from an RPG stance.

Anything else, I play as a human noble or a dwarf, noble or common. Just a personal preference for myself, i think.

Eh, I used it as a reason to have a massive chip on her shoulder, and be very "I'm out for myself" type personality. But I guess several of the origins would work for a selfish manipulative ****, so really, I guess any origin would have worked for me.

I don't understand wanting to RP an elf much either. One thing I loved about LotR was that while elves were all pretty and lived a long time, humans were just as badass.

I think I have problems identifying with the dwarves because they're too short. I'm pretty tall for a girl IRL (5-10ish) so it just frustrates me seeing an avatar that tiny, LOL.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

lol! I'm short for most people, being barely 5'0. I've made up for it in life, being an evil little ****. So I can identify with dwarves in this game more. they are not malformed misshapen little stone chippers, they are tough little buggers with a rather interwsting culture and history.



My dwarf noble was a total ruthless **** by design, my dwarf commoner, however, so eager to escape her past and truly be something more than a "brand", was quite a Duncan/Grey warden fan who is willing to do alot and take alot of punishment to be worthy of the title.



My two favorite origins, however, are human. I love playing human in many RPG universes, simply because, it takes alot more to end up being "something else". And in DA, naturally, my humans, for good or ill, end up falling in love with Alistair, as does my dwarf commoner. In the end.



Even in RPG universes where elves are more "special" I still prefer playing more mundane, more gritty races. in DA, I love being a dwarf!



Even my human mage could not help but end up with Alistair. She hated the circle and was an embarassment to it, he was an almost templar without the hardcore mentality to go with it. Both were failures in their own right, and thus, both seemed almost destined for one another.



You are right, any origin can be quite self interested or selfless, depending on how you roleplay

[SusanStoHelit]

I've loved playing both humans and dwarves - but I like the elves best. Not in all worlds/games, but in DAO. I can identify with them strongly;.



Physically, I suppose I'm more like the elves (have always been very slender) - and I'm fairly tall too. But I grew up out in the bush, in rural areas, low population (even by Australian standards). In fact, lmao, for the first five years of my life we lived out of the back of a utility, camping, and travelling around. And I'm a pagan living in a Christian society. So, yes, I'm Dalish. Although, in fact, the City Elf origin has by far the biggest emotional impact for me.



Alistair, though, despite my liking for elves, is the guy for me in this game. He has qualities that I admire in real men - not the childishness and immaturity, which he'll grow out of - like openness, emotional honesty, a willingness to communicate. I don't want to have to pry information out of someone, I want them (when they've learned to know and trust me) to be open with me. I detest being treated like a mushroom - irl or ingame.



And I really, really, really, detest and despise macho men stereotypes with every bone in my body. As a straight woman, I'd rather have gay sex with a slightly crazy religious freak like Leliana than with a He-Man type.

[errant_knight]

Heh, not really interested in playing a dwarf. I'm only 5', so part of the fantasy is being tall! I haven't played an elf yet, except for the Dalish origin story. I kind of liked that, but I'm really put off by the idea of playing a character who's carting a giant chip around on her shoulder.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

Heh, not really interested in playing a dwarf. I'm only 5', so part of the fantasy is being tall! I haven't played an elf yet, except for the Dalish origin story. I kind of liked that, but I'm really put off by the idea of playing a character who's carting a giant chip around on her shoulder.

You don't need to play it that way.  I think the game gives you some clues that your PC can be laid-back about things, such as the cute interlude where you can undermine children's story time about the history of the Dales.  I found it satisfying to see my Dalish warden go through the RP transformation of encountering human society for the first time close-up.  She ended up much more able to cope with certain things than my city elf, because she had grown up free and confident and without the horrible crisis brought on by the city elf origin.  (I still get PTSD every time one of my characters goes through the Arl of Denerim's kitchen and bedroom.)  So, she fell in love with Alistair, felt more confident running in circles of human power, and had more equanimity about the Chantry than either my city elf or mages.  If I had to pick which of my characters was the best at being a Grey Warden, she'd be it.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 février 2010 - 04:12 .

[Sarielle]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

lol! I'm short for most people, being barely 5'0. I've made up for it in life, being an evil little ****. So I can identify with dwarves in this game more. they are not malformed misshapen little stone chippers, they are tough little buggers with a rather interwsting culture and history.

-grin- This is pretty funny. Longterm boyfriend is actually Filipino (well born here, but ethnically speaking) and while he and his family are hugely tall for Filipinos, at their big shindigs I always feel like a great lunking amazon walking around because I'm dwarfing them all. It's worse when I don't think about it and wear heels (which I do, often). <_<

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I've loved playing both humans and dwarves - but I like the elves best. Not in all worlds/games, but in DAO. I can identify with them strongly;.

Physically, I suppose I'm more like the elves (have always been very slender) - and I'm fairly tall too. But I grew up out in the bush, in rural areas, low population (even by Australian standards). In fact, lmao, for the first five years of my life we lived out of the back of a utility, camping, and travelling around. And I'm a pagan living in a Christian society. So, yes, I'm Dalish. Although, in fact, the City Elf origin has by far the biggest emotional impact for me.

I love finding out cool stuff like this about people; why they identify with certain characters, and others who want "the fantasy" of being totally different from themselves.

And I really, really, really, detest and despise macho men stereotypes with every bone in my body. As a straight woman, I'd rather have gay sex with a slightly crazy religious freak like Leliana than with a He-Man type.

I will have to agree here. I did the whole macho thing for awhile in college with a firefighter -shudder- Give me laid back, and not overly protective of their manliness, please.


edited because of dumb typos

Modifié par Sarielle, 08 février 2010 - 04:18 .

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Heh, not really interested in playing a dwarf. I'm only 5', so part of the fantasy is being tall! I haven't played an elf yet, except for the Dalish origin story. I kind of liked that, but I'm really put off by the idea of playing a character who's carting a giant chip around on her shoulder.

You don't need to play it that way.  I think the game gives you some clues that your PC can be laid-back about things, such as the cute interlude where you can undermine children's story time about the history of the Dales.  I found it satisfying to see my Dalish warden go through the RP transformation of encountering human society for the first time close-up.  She ended up much more able to cope with certain things than my city elf, because she had grown up free and confident and without the horrible crisis brought on by the city elf origin.  (I still get PTSD every time one of my characters goes through the Arl of Denerim's kitchen and bedroom.)  So, she fell in love with Alistair, felt more confident running in circles of human power, and had more equanimity about the Chantry than either my city elf or mages.  If I had to pick which of my characters was the best at being a Grey Warden, she'd be it.

Hmmm.... I can see that. Perhaps I'll give it another go.

[Sandtigress]

My Dalish had no chips on her shoulder. :-) I played her as a slightly tarnished white knight - Alistair's type of girl but a little more practical (I let her do the assassin quests, for instance, because I think she could see the purpose in assassinating a few people who needed killing for a better cause. My HNF flat out refused to do it.)



She took being a Warden fairly seriously, because her clan had sent her to this role, not just to save her life, but also to make them proud and fulfill her destiny. Of all my play-throughs, she's the one with the least desire for vengeance because she's always been the proud Dalish who does not and has no need to submit.

[Sarielle]

Sandtigress wrote...

She took being a Warden fairly seriously, because her clan had sent her to this role, not just to save her life, but also to make them proud and fulfill her destiny. Of all my play-throughs, she's the one with the least desire for vengeance because she's always been the proud Dalish who does not and has no need to submit.

Oh yeah. City elf Chloe definitely overcompensates.