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[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

Siradix wrote...
I thought the Landsmeet was suppose to be the climax for Alistair's character development. In any case, he does get pissy after the voting for me no matter what I do.

There's a difference between character development and approaching marriage as purely political whether he loves the PC or not. I'm just not buying it. And if there's no change in dialogue, I still go with "game mechanics." His dialogue tree is already complicated enough around the Landsmeet events anyway, that adding a new tree for "in love" or just "meh" would likely be more trouble than it's worth. If I were a writer, the thing I'd try to do in a game with this much voice acting is make a response suitable for as many situations as possible. While the "in love" response isn't the most romantic there is, it fits multiple situations.

There ARE changes in the dialog.  Just a lot of similarities as well.  A Theirin/Cousland marriage would, by its nature, be highly political -- the joining of the two oldest and most powerful families in Ferelden, though both are damaged at that point.  However, you know, no matter what, the Couslands will get their old lands and titles back (even if you pick Anora, she if asked will make that very clear), and the Couslands still have the support of the other noble families.

If Alistair is in love, more the better, but the marriage itself is political.  I like the idea of not marrying him and being his mistress, even if HNF, as it shows not only that the love is for him, not for the power, but how much he is willing to put aside to be with her as well.

[Sandtigress]

Personally, I don't like tarnishing Alistair's white knight by letting him take a mistress on.  Only one of my characters so far even started down that path, and she surprised me so that it didn't work out.

I'll let my HNF just be very convincing of it being a love match.   No reason why politics and love have to be mutually exclusive, and I've got four levels of coercion, so he'll believe her eventually!

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...
*sigh* You missed my point entirely  Obviously he's pixels and has no actual thoughts.  It was more, and I will be FAR more careful in this wording, that his reaction to the engagement is exactly the same whether at 0 neutral or 100 love, therefore it seems that it is viewed as a political match no matter what.  In the following dialogs, you can indicate to the character that it is a love match, and his responses are happier, but the conversation also ends on the same note, whether at 100 love or 0 neutral.

*grin* I hope that was more clear!

What I'm saying is that Alistair's thoughts aren't the same through each playthrough. His thoughts are what you make of them. If you're HNF and he loves you, then, in my mind, he wants to marry you because he loves you. If you're HNF and he doesn't love you, then it's political. I don't think he's politically savvy enough (hardened or not) to have his first thought about the engagement be that it must be political if he loves you.

[SurelyForth]

I would say that it's hard to feel romantic about the marriage just because he's willing to marry Anora, who he doesn't like or trust. You don't even really have to know he'll marry a HN at 0 to get a sense that his criteria for his queen is pretty much "female and noble".

I've never felt like being his mistress was tarnishing him. Unless you marry him to Anora, you're technically just his lover (as you are anyway until you marry him). He wouldn't let it happen if he didn't want it badly enough, and there is always the chance that he'll dump you as soon as he gets married. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 08 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[Sandtigress]

SurelyForth wrote...

I would say that it's hard to feel romantic about the marriage just because he's willing to marry Anora, who he doesn't like or trust. You don't even really have to know he'll marry a HN at 0 to get a sense that his criteria for his queen is pretty much "female and noble".

Yes, its much more romantic to be a non-HNF at this scene - then you know that he's marrying Anora out of duty even though he would rather have you.  I LOVE his "But so are you.  You're more important to me than anything.  I don't want anyone else, not even for pretend" line when you tell him that he should marry Anora because "This is important".

I just imagine that my HNF didn't consider herself eligible for the throne at first because of her Warden duties, but changes her mind last minute because Anora's in no better a position, Alistair still needs someone to help him rule, and she has just realized how much she loves him.

Modifié par Sandtigress, 08 février 2010 - 06:46 .

[ejoslin]

He doesn't even require fidelity, but he's far more accepting of being told that if he is NOT in love, obviously. Suggest it while he's in love, you get -15 and a really mad betrothed. Suggest it otherwise, you get -5 but he seems to think it's a good idea.

Edit: I actually DO like Alistair.  I do the romance quite often, even knowing the most likely tragic ending.  In fact, that may be what I like best about it.  Because his heart is so pure and so good, it just is so warm and fuzzy.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 février 2010 - 06:48 .

[Monica21]

SurelyForth wrote...

I would say that it's hard to feel romantic about the marriage just because he's willing to marry Anora, who he doesn't like or trust. You don't even really have to know he'll marry a HN at 0 to get a sense that his criteria for his queen is pretty much "female and noble".

To be fair, the criteria for the king of Ferelden's wife is "female and noble" so it's not really Alistair's decision.

Approaching each playthrough with the knowledge of what he will do through each decision is meta-gaming, not to mention strapping him with undeserved baggage. If you RP a female who loves him, then what you get back is an Alistair who loves the PC. The same is true if it's political. There's no reason to tack on "but he does this if." Yes, he does, but those are all RP decisions your character makes. Those decisions and actions don't hold true for every playthrough. They're there so the PC has options, not so the PC can decide what kind of person Alistair is. He's what he is in the playthrough you're in, not in the playthrough you had two characters ago.

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

My last HN, despite her potential for being an awesome queen, is his mistress and chancellor. There are several reasons why this route was taken, but one of the main ones is that she never wants him to doubt her intentions towards him. Since she couldn't talk to him about it beforehand, she wasn't about to walk into the Landsmeet to declare herself queen and risk planting that seed of doubt.

Edit: His immediate reaction is different though, isn't it?  He won't say he likes the idea if he's not in love.

You could interpret the post-tent conversation as an implied discussion about becoming queen, if your PC says "we stay together no matter what."  It does make for an awkward RP situation, though.  How likely is it that your Cousland character would not bring up the fact, when you two are talking about your future, "hey you know, I am royal material too"?  Not very likely.

Perhaps the game mechanics reflect the fact that the marriage, for a king, has to be political.  It's part of Alistair's story arc of having things outside himself controlling his life.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 février 2010 - 06:52 .

[Thor Rand Al]

This is the reason why I made a comment in either this post or another one lol that I wish we had the option when he asks you are you sure you want to marry him where you could say "Do I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you as your wife, then yes I'm sure I want to marry you."

That lets him know that it's not political reason's you married him but deep-down true love. It would of been nice if there would of been an option to let him know that it wasn't for politics when he asks if your sure.

N the closest you get to even saying anything like that, that I've found so far is when you ask him where do you see this going between us n my response is "I won't let you go no matter what" most of the time, last time "I said if we care about each other why should it matter." I liked the never let you go better though, lets him know how serious I really am lol...


Edit: See my pc's never look at it as politics, she see's this guy, she's fallen in love with him n she want's to spend the rest of whatever life they have together.  When it comes to the landsmeet I always dread that cause if I hardened Alistair then it's obvious he wants the throne, but at the same time my pc's dreading it cause now where draging politics into it but that's not what she wants.  It's a no win situation no matter how you look at it for the pc lol unless you are out to get the throne for political reasons.

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 08 février 2010 - 07:00 .

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

My last HN, despite her potential for being an awesome queen, is his mistress and chancellor. There are several reasons why this route was taken, but one of the main ones is that she never wants him to doubt her intentions towards him. Since she couldn't talk to him about it beforehand, she wasn't about to walk into the Landsmeet to declare herself queen and risk planting that seed of doubt.

Edit: His immediate reaction is different though, isn't it?  He won't say he likes the idea if he's not in love.

You could interpret the post-tent conversation as an implied discussion about becoming queen, if your PC says "we stay together no matter what."  It does make for an awkward RP situation, though.  How likely is it that your Cousland character would not bring up the fact, when you two are talking about your future, "hey you know, I am royal material too"?  Not very likely.

Perhaps the game mechanics reflect the fact that the marriage, for a king, has to be political.  It's part of Alistair's story arc of having things outside himself controlling his life.

lol My poor HNF has been very confused this whole playthrough.  She didn't want to be a Warden, at ALL.  Duncan forced her, and she's carried this chip on her shoulder about the whole business for awhile.  Only the fact that she has a good heart has kept her going helping all these people and gathering the necessary treaties.  She didn't really see a romance with Alistair going anywhere because she still considered herself a noble, and him a commoner.  She liked him, but she had the future of the Couslands in mind.

Just before helping Eamon (fortunate timing on my behalf), Wynne gave her "the talk" about being a Warden, which actually reconciled her to the idea of being a Warden and that it wasn't so different from being a noble.  So now, she embraces life as a title-less Warden, and sees a romance going somewhere, and Alistair turns out to be the next king of Ferelden, with all the political implications that she, being a former noble, is very well aware of.

So she's stalled the romance again, though she is definitely attracted to him, and not until just before Landsmeet with Goldanna will she realize how much she cares for him.  Poor thing!

[Addai]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

This is the reason why I made a comment in either this post or another one lol that I wish we had the option when he asks you are you sure you want to marry him where you could say "Do I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you as your wife, then yes I'm sure I want to marry you."

Well, your answer does imply a romantic commitment in that case. He asks "are you sure about this?" (all of it) and when you answer "sure that I want to marry you?  yes" you are telling him that your motive is marrying him and not just "becoming queen."  That dialogue goes away if you're not in a romance with him, as I found out in my current dumped-Alistair-become-queen playthrough!  Granted, he does not react with warm fuzzies even then; in fact, to me his "saves having to ask you, I guess" sounds rather unhappy.  But I think his unhappiness is with the fact that, once again, his choices are being made for him.  Not that he wouldn't want to marry HNF warden anyway, but that he didn't get to choose the circumstances.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 février 2010 - 07:09 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67, a dumped Alistair gives you the worst of the two royal wedding endings.  Well, at least from my point of view. BUT you may enjoy how it ends up anyway.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 février 2010 - 07:23 .

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

This is the reason why I made a comment in either this post or another one lol that I wish we had the option when he asks you are you sure you want to marry him where you could say "Do I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you as your wife, then yes I'm sure I want to marry you."

Well, your answer does imply a romantic commitment in that case. He asks "are you sure about this?" (all of it) and when you answer "sure that I want to marry you?  yes" you are telling him that your motive is marrying him and not just "becoming queen."  That dialogue goes away if you're not in a romance with him, as I found out in my current dumped-Alistair-become-queen playthrough!  Granted, he does not react with warm fuzzies even then; in fact, to me his "saves having to ask you, I guess" sounds rather unhappy.  But I think his unhappiness is with the fact that, once again, his choices are being made for him.  Not that he wouldn't want to marry HNF warden anyway, but that he didn't get to choose the circumstances.

I didn't think he sounded unhappy at all, just relieved. In some dialogue chains we can find out just how much he doesn't want to be marrying Anora, and there is no such dialogue in relation to playing the PC. I see the 'Are you sure?' as Alistair asking if she's marrying him, or the king, and not a political thing at all. The opposite, in fact. He wants to know it isn't a political thing.

This can be interpreted in many ways, and I think it's fair to say that those who want a political marriage will see it as so, and those who don't, won't.

That's a very good point about him possibly feeling bad about not getting to do the asking. He's quite the romantic. Maybe he had something nice planned.

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 février 2010 - 07:20 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Addai67 wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

This is the reason why I made a comment in either this post or another one lol that I wish we had the option when he asks you are you sure you want to marry him where you could say "Do I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you as your wife, then yes I'm sure I want to marry you."

Well, your answer does imply a romantic commitment in that case. He asks "are you sure about this?" (all of it) and when you answer "sure that I want to marry you?  yes" you are telling him that your motive is marrying him and not just "becoming queen."  That dialogue goes away if you're not in a romance with him, as I found out in my current dumped-Alistair-become-queen playthrough!  Granted, he does not react with warm fuzzies even then; in fact, to me his "saves having to ask you, I guess" sounds rather unhappy.  But I think his unhappiness is with the fact that, once again, his choices are being made for him.  Not that he wouldn't want to marry HNF warden anyway, but that he didn't get to choose the circumstances.

You know i was kinda disappointed with the fact that he doesn't ask lol... I kind of had the same feeling myself about that, n if you remember when he makes the tent proposition he wasn't happy about that either only because of it not being the right time, he wanted it to be more special is what I gathered but unfortunately with everything goin on there's no such thing as more special so once again that's out of his hands... Poor Alistair, nothings going right for him lmao

Edit

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 08 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[Thor Rand Al]

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

This is the reason why I made a comment in either this post or another one lol that I wish we had the option when he asks you are you sure you want to marry him where you could say "Do I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you as your wife, then yes I'm sure I want to marry you."

Well, your answer does imply a romantic commitment in that case. He asks "are you sure about this?" (all of it) and when you answer "sure that I want to marry you?  yes" you are telling him that your motive is marrying him and not just "becoming queen."  That dialogue goes away if you're not in a romance with him, as I found out in my current dumped-Alistair-become-queen playthrough!  Granted, he does not react with warm fuzzies even then; in fact, to me his "saves having to ask you, I guess" sounds rather unhappy.  But I think his unhappiness is with the fact that, once again, his choices are being made for him.  Not that he wouldn't want to marry HNF warden anyway, but that he didn't get to choose the circumstances.

I didn't think he sounded unhappy at all, just relieved. In some dialogue chains we can find out just how much he doesn't want to be marrying Anora, and there is no such dialogue in relation to playing the PC. I see the 'Are you sure?' as Alistair asking if she's marrying him, or the king, and not a political thing at all. The opposite, in fact. He wants to know it isn't a political thing.

This can be interpreted in many ways, and I think it's fair to say that those who want a political marriage will see it as so, and those who don't, won't.

That's a very good point about him possibly feeling bad about not getting to do the asking. He's quite the romantic. Maybe he had something nice planned.

You're right about that, playing a female pc I've never looked at the throne politically, in fact the only reason is because of Alistair, n my pc loves him n wants him to be happy. But playing a male pc that's different n the one I did wasn't about ever falling in love with Anora cause I kept Leliana on as my mistress lol

This kind of reminds me of Cammen n his girl in the Dalish elves quest getting those two together.  I always wondered what Alistair was thinking when I talked to Cammen's girl n told her if you love him then thats all that should matter, if you love him then help him succeed, cause everytime I'm saying that, in the back of my pc's mind she's kinda throwing some hints at Alistair at the same time.

[errant_knight]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I didn't think he sounded unhappy at all, just relieved. In some dialogue chains we can find out just how much he doesn't want to be marrying Anora, and there is no such dialogue in relation to playing the PC. I see the 'Are you sure?' as Alistair asking if she's marrying him, or the king, and not a political thing at all. The opposite, in fact. He wants to know it isn't a political thing.

This can be interpreted in many ways, and I think it's fair to say that those who want a political marriage will see it as so, and those who don't, won't.

That's a very good point about him possibly feeling bad about not getting to do the asking. He's quite the romantic. Maybe he had something nice planned.

You're right about that, playing a female pc I've never looked at the throne politically, in fact the only reason is because of Alistair, n my pc loves him n wants him to be happy. But playing a male pc that's different n the one I did wasn't about ever falling in love with Anora cause I kept Leliana on as my mistress lol

This kind of reminds me of Cammen n his girl in the Dalish elves quest getting those two together.  I always wondered what Alistair was thinking when I talked to Cammen's girl n told her if you love him then thats all that should matter, if you love him then help him succeed, cause everytime I'm saying that, in the back of my pc's mind she's kinda throwing some hints at Alistair at the same time.

I've always seen that whole exchange as being a direct tie-in the the PC-Alistair relationship as well.

[Cazlee]

There is some discussion of the political marriage to Alistiar option which is of interest to me because my HNF recently took that route and I am wondering if I encountered were bugs.   My HNF was 90+ friendly with all of her companions, completed all the personal quests and never entered a romantic relationship with any of them, but didn't shut anyone down entirely either (she still had the option of calling Alistair handsome or asking Zevran about the way he looks at her).  All along the way, Alistair is flirting with her ex. calling her cute when she's upset, pretty, a beautiful woman, hoping that she likes him for who he is, telling her that he has "lines" for her, that she's the reason he feels lucky, etc. and she's just brushed him off playfully.

After the landsmeet, Alistair made his "strange story" speech and approved +2 from 95 to 97, and Leliana is all of a sudden dumping me?? Before the landsmeet she was hardened and at 100 Friendly.  Everything else looks okay, but when I talk to Alistair about Morrigan's proposal there's an option "I know we're not friends, but you need to trust me", this at 100 approval. And at the end of the game, at 100 approval, Alistair says "I know we're not exactly friends". 

I've played through the political marriage route a few times now, keeping him hard or soft, changing my answers, and at the post-coronation he always says "I know we're not exactly friends". Is this the normal dialogue? 

[ejoslin]

Cazlee wrote...

I've played through the political marriage route a few times now, keeping him hard or soft, changing my answers, and at the post-coronation he always says "I know we're not exactly friends". Is this the normal dialogue? 

Yes it is.  You get it at 100 friendly, you get it at 0 neutral.  And when I get around to it, I'll see if you get it at -100 hostile (soon I'll test it).

[Cazlee]

ejoslin wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

I've played through the political marriage route a few times now, keeping him hard or soft, changing my answers, and at the post-coronation he always says "I know we're not exactly friends". Is this the normal dialogue? 

Yes it is.  You get it at 100 friendly, you get it at 0 neutral.  And when I get around to it, I'll see if you get it at -100 hostile (soon I'll test it).

Hmm.... any rational on why he says that? He gives no indication earlier in the game that he disapproves of the arrangement, or that the relationship has changed for the worse.

[errant_knight]

Maybe he means that your relationship has changed from on of friendship to a political alliance. He may have different feelings about that depending on the playthrough, and mean the 'not friends' in a positive light sometimes, negative in others, but it's always true. I''ve never married him without love, so I haven't heard it myself.

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 février 2010 - 08:32 .

[ejoslin]

I tend to agree, they're not exactly friends -- they're betrothed at that point. It's not necessarily a negative statement. When they don't like each other, it is, but they're not really friends, they're not lovers -- they're allies. My PC made clear (on the few play throughs I did that way) that the only reason she was doing it was she was a better alternative than Anora. Of course, when the subject of an heir comes around, she also answers, "Not YOUR heir," as she does have a lover. I like to think that it's three adults entering into a less than optimal situation with their eyes wide open -- but it's not what any of them really wants.



I think the HNF in a political alliance is a sad ending, but I love it anyway. She and Allistair are doing what they have to do to rebuild Ferelden, both making a heavy sacrifice.

[Cazlee]

I think you're both right. I was just hoping for something a little more romantic from Alistair than Jowan's "But we're friends how strange!" But the epilogue card mentions Alistair giving his bride a certain amount of "leeway" and I'm assuming that means that he expects her to have someone on the side so from his standpoint it's purely political.

[Aynslie]

He's a dorky romantic, and I have a soft spot for dorky romantics. Also my Alistair rocked the battle field I have no idea how yours didn't.

[ejoslin]

Cazlee wrote...

I think you're both right. I was just hoping for something a little more romantic from Alistair than Jowan's "But we're friends how strange!" But the epilogue card mentions Alistair giving his bride a certain amount of "leeway" and I'm assuming that means that he expects her to have someone on the side so from his standpoint it's purely political.

Yeh, at the ending of my human noble play throughs (except one), my warden is madly in love with Zevran, which is why I say all three go into it with their eyes wide open, though none are very happy about it.  But you know, I always took the "leeway" comment to mean to rule as she saw fit as she was the savior and new ruler and so popular with the people.  But I bet you're right.  Because it says act as she wished, not rule as she wished.

Oh, thank you. I like that a lot.

[Randomname1212]

I have always found Alistair likeable, as a straight guy here, he seems like a cool guy to be around with. And he does have a funny sense of humour.