238 réponses à ce sujet

[Trogdorx]

Again I must ask. If you're going to use an AR without scope/stability mods and gear, and therefore aren't going to engage at long range with it, why not just take a shotgun? The damage bonus from EB/piercing isn't enough to make it out-perform a shotgun at close range, esp. the piranha, and the lower burst damage means you're spending more time exposed to the enemy, rather than evading while reloading. So to me, that means ARs are best used at medium to long range, which means you need mods that keep your AR from fighting you.

Unless you guys are magically able to connect with every bullet at long range despite wide spread and muzzle climb. In which case I apparently must remove my hat in recognition of your skill.

But assuming that's not the case, the damage boost from any barrel/piercing mod would have to be significantly higher to make it worth having bullets miss at those ranges, or to make it as effective as a shotgun at close range.

Modifié par Trogdorx, 10 octobre 2012 - 07:00 .

[JSLfromBx]

upinya slayin wrote...

JSLfromBx wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

The Assault Rifle High-Velocity Barrel was never intended to increase weapon damage. We intended for it to be a heavier version of the existing penetration mod, so you get higher penetration for some extra weight. In hindsight, we should have called it something other than High-Velocity Barrel, as this seems to be leading to some confusion. We are looking into the possibility of renaming it.

+50 weight for some measly centimeters more penetration and a bit more anti-armor effectivity?


You're kidding, right?

Don't underestimate the benefits of armor reduction. On Gold/Platinum and even on Silver, the DPS of fast-firing assault rifles on armored targets can literally double (or more!) going from 0% to 90% penetration.

Such arguements I have thrown at these guys for months (Especially back when people were obsessed with the black widow, and the metagame was still "Black widow, or GTFO")

They don't learn very well

Anyone who can play already figured out that using the 0 weight AP mod with ANY rank of AP ammo, even AP I which you can get in a recruit pack already give you 100% armor penetration, there is nothing new  to learn here.

People really need to get out of their system that is new heavyweight mod increase their damage against armor, because it doesn't, unless you never use consumable.

true but if you get 90% form your mod plus warp rounds (which will give you the 100% debuff to armor) plus 60% damage plus 100% biotic damage is more powerfull of a combo. just saying

Wrong, you don't understand how warp ammo work at all, it doesn't mattter anyway, the point is the same, warp ammo IV has such a strong armor weakening effect that there would be no noticable damage difference betwen the 65% ap mod and the 90% heavy one.

I am going to say it, AGAIN, in simplier term:

65% AP mod+ AP ammo = 100% armor penetration

65% AP mod+ Warp ammo = 100% armor penetration

65% AP mod+ Drill ammo = 100% armor penetration

65% AP mod+ Cryo ammo = 100% armor penetration

It's a choice betwen either 100 % AP with no penalty OR 100% AP with extra weight and no possibility to use extended barrel.

That's no choice at all.

Modifié par JSLfromBx, 10 octobre 2012 - 07:10 .

[Cyonan]

Trogdorx wrote...

Again I must ask. If you're going to use an AR without scope/stability mods and gear, and therefore aren't going to engage at long range with it, why not just take a shotgun? The damage bonus from EB/piercing isn't enough to make it out-perform a shotgun at close range, esp. the piranha, and the lower burst damage means you're spending more time exposed to the enemy, rather than evading while reloading. So to me, that means ARs are best used at medium to long range, which means you need mods that keep your AR from fighting you.

Unless you guys are magically able to connect with every bullet at long range despite wide spread and muzzle climb. In which case I apparently must remove my hat in recognition of your skill.

But assuming that's not the case, the damage boost from any barrel/piercing mod would have to be significantly higher to make it worth having bullets miss at those ranges, or to make it as effective as a shotgun at close range.

The majority of ARs are acccurate enough to enagage enemies at longer ranges without needing the scope, and stability comes down to the player. I personally find that I don't need stability on any AR, not even the Revenant.

They may not hit Sniper Rifle effective range(some of them actually do, like the Sabre), but they're well out of reach of the shotguns except maybe a hipfired Wraith(and even that is pushing it) and of course the GPS/Crusader which are an exception.

[xBotharix]

                     Weight    ROF     Bullet DMG      50DPS     Armor DPS
Phaeston X                  0.8     600      52.4       5     524       50
Avenger X                   0.5     500      48.2       5   401.7     41.7
Geth Pulse Rifle X          0.5     800      34.2       5     456     66.7
Collector Assault Rif       1.2     500      69.2    19.2   576.7      160
Particle Rifle V            1.7     800      22.2       5     296     66.7
N7 Typhoon V               2.25     600      50.2       5     502       50

                                                     17.5DPS     Armor DPS
                     Phaeston X              65.5      48     655      480
                     Avenger X              60.25   42.75   502.1    356.3
DAMAGE WITH PIERCE   Geth Pulse Rifle X     42.75   25.25     570    336.7
AND EXTENDED         Collector Assault       86.5      69   720.9      575
                     Particle Rifle V       27.75   10.25     370    136.7
                     N7 Typhoon V           62.75   45.25   627.5    452.5


                                                5Armor DPS
                                             47.4     474
                                             43.2     360
DAMAGE WITH NEW                              29.2   389.4
Pierce mod                                   64.2     535
                                             17.2   229.4
                                             45.2     452

There's exactly one weapon that benefits from the new piercing mod? The DPS values are burst dps values. And i've left the typhoon and particle at V since they're UR. Also, these are without any class bonuses to damage. I'm pretty sure any more bonuses to base damage would only help the extended barrel even more right? Don't know for sure if the calculations are right though..

Edit: Oh it also helps the GPR.

Modifié par xBotharix, 10 octobre 2012 - 07:37 .

[Doctor Proctor]

Trogdorx wrote...

Again I must ask. If you're going to use an AR without scope/stability mods and gear, and therefore aren't going to engage at long range with it, why not just take a shotgun? The damage bonus from EB/piercing isn't enough to make it out-perform a shotgun at close range, esp. the piranha, and the lower burst damage means you're spending more time exposed to the enemy, rather than evading while reloading. So to me, that means ARs are best used at medium to long range, which means you need mods that keep your AR from fighting you.

Unless you guys are magically able to connect with every bullet at long range despite wide spread and muzzle climb. In which case I apparently must remove my hat in recognition of your skill.

But assuming that's not the case, the damage boost from any barrel/piercing mod would have to be significantly higher to make it worth having bullets miss at those ranges, or to make it as effective as a shotgun at close range.

Off the top of my head, here's some examples of why someone might do just such a thing...

1) Stability Gear increases accuracy
2) Stability Equipment increases accuracy
3) Marksman increases accuracy
4) Devastator Mode increases accuracy
5) Some classes, I think the Turians, get big damage buffs to ARs, but not Shotguns
6) Someone might be using a Crusader (highly accurate non-pellet based) or Geth Shotgun (ditto) and needs the AR for engaging amored targets at short to medium range

[Rifneno]

It's a mediocre improvement for the PPR. It sucks for anything else. People keep saying typhoon but I don't see how. The EB is much better. No faction has enough armored enemies to make it an overall improvement over the EB. Sure, this stacks with the piercing but exactly how often do you think "damn, if only I had 3 meters of piercing even at the cost of both mod slots and a bunch of weight"?

[Maker MEDA]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Granted, these mods aren't for every kit. The kits that care a lot about power recharge speed will probably have a hard time finding a use for them.

Probably use it on my Krogan or Destroyer then, good to know, these pointers are really helpful!

[xBotharix]

Fixed calculations layout.

[ichyscrachy]

Thalamask wrote...

Ever consider that maybe the purpose of these mods (and a ton of the gear) is not to be useful, but to simply give you something else to spend time unlocking? [/tinfoilhat]

This.

[Rifneno]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

It's a mediocre improvement for the PPR. It sucks for anything else. People keep saying typhoon but I don't see how. The EB is much better. No faction has enough armored enemies to make it an overall improvement over the EB. Sure, this stacks with the piercing but exactly how often do you think "damn, if only I had 3 meters of piercing even at the cost of both mod slots and a bunch of weight"?

The answer:

Sniper rifles.

But HEY, they got +damage too, how marvellous! Case in point, BioWare is trolling assault rifle users.

Hanlon's razor. 

[BleedingUranium]

Rifneno wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

It's a mediocre improvement for the PPR. It sucks for anything else. People keep saying typhoon but I don't see how. The EB is much better. No faction has enough armored enemies to make it an overall improvement over the EB. Sure, this stacks with the piercing but exactly how often do you think "damn, if only I had 3 meters of piercing even at the cost of both mod slots and a bunch of weight"?

The answer:

Sniper rifles.

But HEY, they got +damage too, how marvellous! Case in point, BioWare is trolling assault rifle users.

Hanlon's razor. 

Exactly. I said this long before the mods came out: If they are damage and piercing, they'll be useful, but if they're piercing only, they'll suck. Looks like I was right.

I'd want to use the HVB on something with a lot of damage to maximize damage, but that's pretty useless if I have to lose 25% damage in the process. That's the real issue here.

[Lord Rosario]

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but this indeed could be quite helpful for Volus as they are short. Being able to shoot through the cover is very helpful, though, reductions to damage for shooting through cover is rather annoying for that niche..

[78stonewobble]

Uhm just throwing this out there... as an idea.

Assault rifles and/or smg's should slow targets down a bit while you "put the pepper" on the target?

Just as something to give a bit more incentive to using AR's.

[Valiantheart99]

The math on this mod is simple. On Gold, any gun that does more than 63 damage per bullet is better off with the regular AP mod and Heavy Barrel.

Any gun under 63 damage per bullet see a small benefit from the Heavy Velocity Barrel. The Avenger, Phaeston, Geth Pulse Rifle are the only weapons that qualify.

The lower the armor gate the lower the damage per bullet needs to be.

Keep in mind this is only against armored enemies. Against all others the Extended Barrel is always the winner regardless of bullet damage.

It is a dead mod without the damage + armor pen that the other guns get with theirs.

[Quething]

xBotharix wrote...

Edit: Oh it also helps the GPR.

So the two weapons it's useful for are the two ARs that only a caster would ever carry. That makes the weight penalty a little hilarious, doesn't it?

[xBotharix]

Quething wrote...

xBotharix wrote...

Edit: Oh it also helps the GPR.

So the two weapons it's useful for are the two ARs that only a caster would ever carry. That makes the weight penalty a little hilarious, doesn't it?

My JustAss would never be caught dead with a PPR... or a GPR for that matter.. (well .. actually they might just.. seeing as they're such crappy guns for casters.)

Any gun under 63 damage per bullet see a small benefit from the Heavy
Velocity Barrel. The Avenger, Phaeston, Geth Pulse Rifle are the only
weapons that qualify.

63? nope .. less than 50 damage per bullet. At 50 damage per bullet, the EB adds 12.5 damage per bullet. Which just happens to be the exact different between .65 and .90 armor pierce mods on gold armor.

Modifié par xBotharix, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:17 .

[Valiantheart99]

You can stack the two AP mods though currently.

50*.1*.35=1.75

[Farosyrn]

I was really looking forward to a few more sniper mods - so far, the only really useful mod on, say, a Widow X was the barrel, and maybe the Ammo mod, just so you could really kick back and wait til the end of every 2nd round to run to the next ammo crate.
But this thermal scope is just ridiculous. There is just no infiltrator who would trade 50% weight increase, which is at least a second on TC, for just the ability to see through walls (and not even that on the Javelin, since it's nothing new) and a toned down screen shake (which is something that does not belong in the game in the first place...worst idea ever!). Accuracy and stability sound nice, but it's useless on a one shot SR. Maybe on a Valiant/BW...but still...not worth 50% weight increase...

[Quething]

xBotharix wrote...

My JustAss would never be caught dead with a PPR... or a GPR for that matter.. (well .. actually they might just.. seeing as they're such crappy guns for casters.)

Well, would you rather use the GPR on a turian soldier?

[OneTrueShot]

Farosyrn wrote...

I was really looking forward to a few more sniper mods - so far, the only really useful mod on, say, a Widow X was the barrel, and maybe the Ammo mod, just so you could really kick back and wait til the end of every 2nd round to run to the next ammo crate.
But this thermal scope is just ridiculous. There is just no infiltrator who would trade 50% weight increase, which is at least a second on TC, for just the ability to see through walls (and not even that on the Javelin, since it's nothing new) and a toned down screen shake (which is something that does not belong in the game in the first place...worst idea ever!). Accuracy and stability sound nice, but it's useless on a one shot SR. Maybe on a Valiant/BW...but still...not worth 50% weight increase...

At least the scope has a visible and ACTUAL benefit to the weapon, instead, of, ya know, doing nothing unless it's on a weapon no one even cares about...

[78stonewobble]

With only a gpr x, extended barrel, regular ap mod and no points in weight reduction my gethgineer have a power recharge speed of 190 % though.

[Grunt_Platform]

 OK, so, let's take the light weight gun most likely to benefit from this the most: The Geth Pulse Rifle. This is a rare AR with a high rate of fire and significant loss of damage to armor (83%). With machinelike reload canceling it has a meager 54.54 DPS against armored targets on Gold.
Let's put it on the character most hit by armor effects; A turian soldier with Marksman specced for rate of fire. With a maxed out Marksman bonus, the gun has a 50% higher rate of fire, giving the Geth Pulse Rifle a rate of fire at 1200rpm, and this turian won't be scoring any headshots, but he has a 30% damage bonus from Turian Veteran.

In one kit, the High Velocity Barrel with a Magazine upgrade, on the other, an Extended Barrel with an AP Mod.

Here are the numbers:

________________________Damage__v.Armor_ROF_____Mag.____C.DPS___v.Armor_Armor Loss
GPR_____________________30.1____5_______800_____80______328.33__54.54___83.4%
.Marksman+Turian________39.1____5_______1200____80______586.88__57.97___90.1%
.M+T with HVB + Mag_____39.1____34.13___1200____144_____660.27__575.9___12.7%
.M+T with EB+AP_________46.7____29.15___1200____80______699.74__437.27__37.5%
Phaeston________________52.4____5_______600_____50______465.35__44.4____90%
.M+T with EB+AP_________81.2____63.72___900_____50______1024.59_677.39__33.8%

So, assuming no consumables are used, he will be dealing roughly 30% more damage to armored targets with the High Velocity Barrel and a Magazine Upgrade, but ~6% less damage against everything else.

Unfortunately, the added weight puts it in the same weight class as the Phaeston, which with Extended Barrel and an AP mod beat the Geth Pulse Rifle in every single way. I could repeat this with every single gun you could put the HVB on, and the same issues will crop up. It'll start looking good.. then you compare it to similar weapons in its new higher weight class. With an HVB, the Phaeston is competing with the Revenant and the Harrier... and the Phaeston can't win that one.

EDIT: OK, the formatting is driving me crazy. Also, terms: C.DPS is "damage per second with reload cancel."

My numbers here might actually be slightly off, since I think I failed to account for the interaction between ROF and initiating reload, but I did include the impact of refire times, which is why they might seem lower than you expect just using just rate of fire and reload times.

Modifié par EvanKester, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:40 .

[xBotharix]

Valiantheart99 wrote...

You can stack the two AP mods though currently.

50*.1*.35=1.75

... the 3.5 damage per bullet difference is less than a 10% bonus to the lowest bullet damage (GPR) where its possibly the MOST effective. Would never use that over say an extended mag.

[xBotharix]

Quething wrote...

xBotharix wrote...

My JustAss would never be caught dead with a PPR... or a GPR for that matter.. (well .. actually they might just.. seeing as they're such crappy guns for casters.)

Well, would you rather use the GPR on a turian soldier?

Uh.. how about you'd never catch a single of my characters with a GPR? But ya that one (or destroyer) could actually use it (marksman with ROF increase)