126 réponses à ce sujet

[Abriael_CG]

GEWill wrote...
QFT. I never saw the point in why people were so enthralled with Oblivion.

For many (like for me) it's the high degree of moddability, but DA:O comes with the most advanced toolset ever released with a PC RPG, so it's just a matter of time before those people forget Oblivion.

[screwoffreg]

I do agree that the side quests were lackluster compared to BG 2. Also, it bothered me that party interaction was more "as you want it" rather than an ever present part of the game like Baldur Gate. Hearing Viconia and Jaheira fight it out regularly was worth it and made each replay worthwhile. Still, Dragon Age is the Best RPG SINCE Baldurs Gate II, in my opinion. As for Oblivion and the like, those are very different types of games. Morrowind is one of my favorites, but you don't play a game like that expecting the depth and character development like you would a Bioware game.

[metatheurgist]

Del wrote...
Here's to hoping that a real D&D-based BG/NWN 3 hybrid will see the light of day in the not so distant future.

Just wondering, have you seen what's happened to D&D recently? 4e plays like it was designed by Sandal. It's oversimplified mechanics disguised by heaps of flavor text. It's even more limited than DA, though the flavor-text disguise seems to have fooled many into thinking it's got depth. If this is your "only hope" for RPGs, I'd suggest you fall on your sword now.

[KCat]

valleyman88 wrote...

Del wrote...
1. Character creation and development is extremely weak compared to the D&D standard. There is very little room for unique and compelling character builds. Three classes and four-tiered skill branches?! More importantly, there aren't any synergistic rewards for committing to a certain path. The way specializations are handled is very poor as well. Big disappointment here.

I partially agree. For the rogues and warriors, character progression is boring and doesn't allow any originality. You just pick your weapon and max out the talents that come with it. The only decision is in which order you take them. The specializations didn't change the way you played your rogue or warrior at all. What's the difference between a berserker and a non-berserker? A berserker activates the berserk talant at the start of a fight. That's it. The idea of having people in the world react different to you based on your sepcialization would have been interesting. 

This. The idea of specializations emerging from baser classes is great. But overall, the abilities were dull. Not only in use, but also in actually getting them, too. I thought it was rather cool that you needed to talk to people and get them to like you enough (or not) to be taught (some) specializations. It gave the specialization more impact, the feeling that these were actual skills and abilities passed down from those more knowledgeable, not just check marks on a stat sheet. But that was ruined by how learning the specialization is really just a profile option unlock. Learn it once, and all your future characters and previous saves can use it with no questions asked (don't like the choice you have to make to get a Blood Mage? just save, make the choice, get the spec, reload old save, voila; screw consequences).

I could describe a really good reason for how this ruined what could've been great role-playing moments, but this is a no-spoilers forum. Suffice it to say, it turned what would've been great personal plot devices into a cheap way to simply enable new abilities. And that the game is designed around the unlock-once-useful-for-all approach also makes it difficult to be fixed with a mod.

Del wrote...
3. Lack of an open-ended world to freely explore. Jumping around the world map from 'point of interest' to 'point of interest' quickly made me lose interest. You get some say in the order you do things but for the most part, the game is extremely linear. We are spoonfed the adventure instead of getting to create our own adventure (to the extent that is reasonably possible in a crpg).

As others have pointed out already, this isn't feasable for a game with modern graphics. I don't get the appeal of exploration when theres the army of evil baddies at the gates anyway. You did get to explore the world in a way through the many codex entries.

The main issue for me isn't so much that you go from POI to POI, but it's that there's so few POIs. You visit just about all of them during the main quest, or during the DLCs' quests. There's no hidden areas that aren't involved some way with the MQ, which really kills the sense of exploration and open-endedness as there's no places to "discover". You'll eventually get there anyway, and when you clear out an area, there's little reason to go back to it. It's the epitome of linearity.

[DragonRageGT]

Well, with 97% of world explore I'm still missing some damn hidden 3% for my achievement and that char is gone... I mean, ended the game already! Grrrr!

[Del]

metatheurgist wrote...

Just wondering, have you seen what's happened to D&D recently? 4e plays like it was designed by Sandal. It's oversimplified mechanics disguised by heaps of flavor text. It's even more limited than DA, though the flavor-text disguise seems to have fooled many into thinking it's got depth. If this is your "only hope" for RPGs, I'd suggest you fall on your sword now.

No, I know nothing of 4th edition. I sure did like 3-3.5 though, particularly as implemented in NWN 1 and 2. Much more flexibility than the earlier editions.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, very disappointing game, 90% of the time you're clearing out rooms, woopee! There's almost no quest design at all. I'm through with Bio as an RPG company, may be they can make good shooters now, we'll see.

[LDB10671]

Im somehwat disappointed as well. I would prefer to be out exploring and questing rather than spending 75% of the time watching cinematics and playing the converstational game.

Im also disappointed with the invisiable walls when im exploring the linear world. 

No being to step in ankle deep water is annoying.
 
Not being able to get to that abandoned tower in the middle of the small pond due to the invisible wall surrounding said pond is lame.

Not being able to run down a hill that is only two feet long at a 45 degree angle is also lame.

Also the character and world detail is bland. reminds me of morrowind.

Modifié par LDB10671, 30 décembre 2009 - 05:56 .

[Abriael_CG]

LDB10671 wrote...
Also the character and world detail is bland. reminds me of morrowind.

Can't really disagree more with this.

Also, the "omg invisible walls!" argument is starting to get stale. Not every game needs to be a big sandbox world (actually a *small* sandbox world, we saw it with Oblivion, whose world is an "empire" more or less as big as a modern city... lol).
Dragon Age offers an awesome background, a great story, lovely storytelling and characters and the best modding potential ever saw in a computer game thanks to the extremely advanced toolset.
The rest is just nitpicking.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 30 décembre 2009 - 06:06 .

[Wrath of Dagon]

Those would make a good movie, not a game (well, except for modding, but I don't care). And the very limited mobility is annoying in a modern game, but it's only a fairly minor point for me.

[Morkaeleb]

I have to agree with a lot of points here. I have heard the purile "OMG it's not a sandbox WTFBBQDancingbear argoomunt iz stale FTW!!!111" and have to discard it. The reality is that such a game is the standard, and this game does not live up to standard. It's like comparing WoW to EQ2. WoW is the child's version, EQ2 is for grownups. I would need to see a LOT more content to this game to be able to take it seriously.

In order to be current, modern, and up to standard, the game MUST allow open ended questing mechanics, free movement across the landscape, and enough content to remain involving.  If it does not offer those things, then it's about ten years too late to be taken seriously.

I'll give Mass Effect2 a shot, but after that, I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to wash my hands of Bioware forever.  They continue to promise big, but disappoint in just about every way that matters.

Modifié par Morkaeleb, 30 décembre 2009 - 06:25 .

[Abriael_CG]

Wrath of Dagon wrote...

Those would make a good movie, not a game (well, except for modding, but I don't care). And the very limited mobility is annoying in a modern game, but it's only a fairly minor point for me.

There's plenty interactivity to make it a game and not a movie. But storytelling IS one of the most important factors in a good game, and even more so an RPG, i don't think it's farfetched to say it's THE most important factor in an RPG actually. That's where DA:O excels. And that's where games "without invisible walls" sorely lack and have always lacked.

Morkaeleb wrote...
 The reality is that such a game is the standard, and this game does not live up to standard.

And pray tell, who decides what "the standard" is? because looking at how successful the game is being, it definitely seems that the "standard" you're talking about isn't that important for most gamers, besides a few sandbox elitists. actually the success of games like Uncharted and others seems to indicate that good storytelling is the "standard" not a big semi-empty square of land where you can more or less go everywhere but in the end you'll experience a dull story and poorly characterized actors.

I had to giggle at your "wow vs everquest" comment too. While i'm definitely not a fan of WoW, maybe you think that Everquest 2 is "the standard" too? Because it seems pretty much dead in the water, commercially speaking, expecially if compared to wow.  
I'm afraid that age has no bearing on the kind of games one likes, so arguments like "for grownups vs for kids" fall a tad short, at least between actual grownups Most of them prefer the "fun vs not so fun" argument.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 30 décembre 2009 - 06:35 .

[Torias]

Ummm, just to make sure, does everyone realise that there are different computer games?

Like, not all computer games are intended to be the same.

Each game developer has a vision for their game, and they implement it.

If you don't like their vision, well that's your loss.

But it is factually incorrect to say that the game "sucks" or "fails" because you want something that the game is not intended to be.

The game is as it is. It is as exactly as bioware designed it. They very clearly described what it is. There is a long history and pedigree to this style.

If you were to complain that "Dragon Age is not a sandbox game!", that's just like complaining that "this romantic comedy doesn't have enough fight scenes!".

[Wrath of Dagon]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Wrath of Dagon wrote...

Those would make a good movie, not a game (well, except for modding, but I don't care). And the very limited mobility is annoying in a modern game, but it's only a fairly minor point for me.

There's plenty interactivity to make it a game and not a movie. But storytelling IS one of the most important factors in a good game, and even more so an RPG, i don't think it's farfetched to say it's THE most important factor in an RPG actually. That's where DA:O excels. And that's where games "without invisible walls" sorely lack and have always lacked.

The interactivity is making a decision at the end of the major quests, and fight mob after mob after mob. I want more variety of gameplay from an RPG, and that can only be accomplished through quests. And the quest design in DAO is sorely lacking. Yes I'd agree story is the most important factor, but only if that story is presented interactively, so that you feel you're fully participating. Same old gather 4 doohickeys in 4 places just doesn't cut it as a great interactive plot anymore.

[Abriael_CG]

Wrath of Dagon wrote... The interactivity is making a decision at the end of the major quests, and fight mob after mob after mob. I want more variety of gameplay from an RPG, and that can only be accomplished through quests. And the quest design in DAO is sorely lacking. Yes I'd agree story is the most important factor, but only if that story is presented interactively, so that you feel you're fully participating. Same old gather 4 doohickeys in 4 places just doesn't cut it as a great interactive plot anymore.

Considering that you can influence by quite a lot the outcome of the story and the fate of it's characters, you can chose who to romance and all that, I'd say that DA:O offers more interactivity in the field of storytelling that most offerings of the same genre.

PS: Quite well said, Torias. I'm starting to get the same feeling i get when people complain that Final Fantasy Games aren't like Planescape Torment lol.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 30 décembre 2009 - 06:43 .

[feroxthegreywarden]

My major gripe with dragon age is the gameplay and mechanics themselves... just not very good, I think the world they created and the lore is TOP notch though.



to be quite honest with you I don't even play it anymore because I bought " the witcher"  for 13 bucks on steam and I enjoy the gameplay mechanics MUCH more on the Witcher then DA:O.

[Torias]

feroxthegreywarden wrote...

My major gripe with dragon age is the gameplay and mechanics themselves... just not very good, I think the world they created and the lore is TOP notch though.



to be quite honest with you I don't even play it anymore because I bought " the witcher"  for 13 bucks on steam and I enjoy the gameplay mechanics MUCH more on the Witcher then DA:O.

Keep in mind that you aren't married to one game :-)

You could play with The Witcher (awesome game) for a while, and then come back to Dragon Age afterwards, focusing on the lore and so on :-)


I just played Borderlands and I am replaying Mass Effect (all my saves were on my old pc, so playing it one. more. time. to get ready for the sequal)...

I'm going to have another go through of Dragon Age later on after that though :-)

[Abriael_CG]

Torias wrote...

Keep in mind that you aren't married to one game :-)

Are you sure?

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 30 décembre 2009 - 07:06 .

[Liquid Wolf]

Disappointment means there was expectation, which is the first mistake a RPG lover can make. You approach any new game or series fresh. No comparison, no expectations.

Baldur's Gate was just that, Baldur's Gate. Whatever someone told you, or whatever you wanted to believe about DAO being anything like, or based off of, BG or BG II... it was wrong. This world, the system, and it's lore stand alone. While it may be similar to D&D, it is not the same, nor was it intended to be the same.

Your critiques, requested changes, or complaints are only good for one thing:

Making your own game.

DAO is based off of someone's dreams, plans, and desires. It was not made to fit the expectations of everyone... or anyone other than the creator (s) for that matter. It is the difference between creativity and a formula.

I recommend you go back through the game and begin to find the things you like about DAO and stop looking for the things you don't like. Do this for every game you come across, because otherwise everything will continue to look worse than the one before it.

And there is only one person you can blame for that: Yourself.

Modifié par Liquid Wolf, 30 décembre 2009 - 07:12 .

[Norman Ellis]

even if Bioware will do everything that everyone has "suggested", people will still be disappointed with it, people will still whine about it, and people will still be asking for more. just human nature i guess.

[Abriael_CG]

Norman Ellis wrote...

even if Bioware will do everything that everyone has "suggested", people will still be disappointed with it, people will still whine about it, and people will still be asking for more. just human nature i guess.

Rule 1 from the Games Developer's Manual: 
"Everyone will always think they can do your job better than you"

[Dieover]

Torias wrote...


Keep in mind that you aren't married to one game :-)

You could play with The Witcher (awesome game) for a while, and then come back to Dragon Age afterwards, focusing on the lore and so on :-)


I just played Borderlands and I am replaying Mass Effect (all my saves were on my old pc, so playing it one. more. time. to get ready for the sequal)...

I'm going to have another go through of Dragon Age later on after that though :-)

beautiful mind think alike ; )

*kiss*

Currently taking a break from DAO and start playing TF2 and Torchlight again.

Modifié par Dieover, 30 décembre 2009 - 10:15 .

[metatheurgist]

Del wrote...
No, I know nothing of 4th edition. I sure did like 3-3.5 though, particularly as implemented in NWN 1 and 2. Much more flexibility than the earlier editions.

If you're a fan of 3rd and it's flexibility, odds are you'll hate 4th with a passion. It's pretty much a straight jacket system - play a class WotC's way or the highway. So I'd give up on your third point of hoping for a NWN3 hybrid. Not to mention the recent lawsuit between Hasbro and Atari may lock out D&D games for years.

You'd be better off supporting DA and trying to get Bioware to add complexity to this system. I'm sure they're open to suggestions. DA is a first gen system, I don't think they believe it's perfect either.

[Bonkz]

TheMadCat wrote...

Bonkz wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Bonkz wrote...

Oh no, that wasn't anything directed at you man, sorry if it came out that way .You just brought up a couple of interesting things I wanted to expand on a bit.

No worries, just making conversation

By the way, i agree with Torias that not all games are not the same, it's just that some people (including me) are so much in love with the BG2 style that tend to compare it with all new Bio RPG's. I guess that's the first mistake we do DA is great in its own way

[Haplose]

Well I have only two gripes with DAO.

Del wrote...
1. Character creation and development is extremely weak compared to the D&D standard. There is very little room for unique and compelling character builds. Three classes and four-tiered skill branches?! More importantly, there aren't any synergistic rewards for committing to a certain path. The way specializations are handled is very poor as well. Big disappointment here.

That's partially true. While overall the systems seems to work good enough and combat is extremly fun, the character building aspect seems seriously lacking. And it happens to be very important for me. Still it's much better then older DnD incarnations - before 3.0.

I wouldn't really mind being limited to 3 classes with specializations and talents. The problem is that there is very little room for variety. All dual-wielders end with the same talents, all 2h warriors end with the same talents, all archers end with the same talents, etc. At least with Rogues you get choice whether to be Dex-based or Cunning-based (well, even Str is possible, but not really optimal).

Also there is no balance in the Talents. Some low tier Talents are very good, while many high tier Talents are almost useless (and expensive and with high requirements to get them). In general it's a huge mixup mess in the Talent trees.

Mages have it slightly better. They don't loose anything by cherrypicking the spells they want from any trees they wish. Perhaps they have it too good infact. There is no lost opportunity cost for not specializing and no restictions in spell access. The attribute requirements for high Tier spells are also ridiculously easy to meet - and contrary to martial Talents have no minimum level requirement. So it's entirely possible to chave chosen "best" spell by level 4 or 5.

I think some more restrictive, exclusive specializations (like healer - Creation, illusionitst/enchanter - CC, warlock - Hexes, sorceror - Primal, theurge/shaman - Spirit) could serve the Mage class well.
Currently they seem too much like Swiss Army knives.

3. Lack of an open-ended world to freely explore. Jumping around the world map from 'point of interest' to 'point of interest' quickly made me lose interest. You get some say in the order you do things but for the most part, the game is extremely linear. We are spoonfed the adventure instead of getting to create our own adventure (to the extent that is reasonably possible in a crpg).

I don't mind linearity in a story-driven game. I fully accept it. But DAO was seriously lacking in the sidequest department. A job board, a "Thank you" and 0,2-5 gold coins.. and that mostly all?? Common....
Optional, hidden discoveries were also too few (but there actually were some... and no, Tab does not reveal everything).

A city that actually feels a bit like one and doesn't consist of tiny, closed spaces would also be very welcome. Bioware could learn a lot from The Witcher here.