126 réponses à ce sujet

[PJN161]

BlarkW wrote...

You know, maybe it’s a generation gap or something but I have never read so much whining and complaining about a game in all my life. I’ve been playing computer games since SSI made computer games way back when.

I for one find the game completely awesome!! Sure there maybe a few very trivial gliches or bumps but nothing game ruining. People complaining of no decent robes ruining there immersion or a small bug ruining the game and selling it. Content not released right on the date it said it would be. Or DLC costing a whole FIVE dollars. Come on people, I mean I know that todays age group wants everything for free and are spoiled but man, cut Bioware a break. They made THE game of the year and for good darn reason!

Yes, I am a bit older then most of you kids here and someone needs to say it so I did. I also say, THANK YOU BIOWARE for making such a great game!

Hear Hear!
I can recall playing Colossal Cave adventure on a BBC-B back in 1983, and that hooked me into the CRPG genre.
There seems to be an awful lot of complaining because DA.O isnt "perfect"?
Funny that...because some of the greatest computer games of the last 25 years that are still talked about (and sometimes played) had major flaws.
The amazing Fallout 3 came as a result of the Oblivion Engine, both have glaring flaws, both are great games.
FO3 took years to arrive on back of two of the greatest games ever made..and I do mean "ever"....Fallouts 1 & 2.
Both of which were plagued with bugs, glitches, and graphical disasters.
You play ROUND faults in a good game, you play THROUGH minor niggles to feel the beating heart of the characters and the game itself.
If youre finding a game like DA.O disappointing, then youre perfectly entitled to do so, but to be fair, you sound like the kid who`s ripping open his christmas presents whilst asking his parents what he`s getting for his birthday...
Its always "next one must be bigger, better, brighter, louder."
I for one am finding DAO a real refreshing change.
I loved Morrowind, Oblivion, FO3...but having only half a dozen voice actors to cover hundreds and hundreds of NPCs was just tragic. The social interactions between party members is humerous and believable, the NPCs deliver their quest driven lines with believable gravitas, and the graphics arent shoddy.
All in all, whether is IS a worthy successor (spiritual or actual) to the brilliance of the Forgotten realms series, is irrelevent.
What is relevent is... good CRPGs are hardly being churned out on a weekly basis are they? so for me, apart from "the Witcher" , nothing has come close to a good CRPG since NWN1.

Ok, Old middle aged fart rant done now.

[Sir Hawkmoon]

i agree in all points with Sel

sp0lh4us wrote...
...

While I'm playing quite like so. It's like when I'm reading a book. I used to lost in it.
Reality cease to exist and I become my character. For a while. I'm quite sure I'm not the only one... Am I?

No - u are not alone man. 

[BlarkW]

Sir Hawkmoon wrote...

i agree in all points with Sel

sp0lh4us wrote...
...

While I'm playing quite like so. It's like when I'm reading a book. I used to lost in it.
Reality cease to exist and I become my character. For a while. I'm quite sure I'm not the only one... Am I?

No - u are not alone man. 

I feel the same. I can completely lose myself in ths game. It's a great escape from reality!

[DragonRageGT]

PJN161 wrote...

BlarkW wrote...

... stuff
Yes, I am a bit older then most of you kids here and someone needs to say it so I did. I also say, THANK YOU BIOWARE for making such a great game!

Hear Hear!
... stuff
What is relevent is... good CRPGs are hardly being churned out on a weekly basis are they? so for me, apart from "the Witcher" , nothing has come close to a good CRPG since NWN1.

Ok, Old middle aged fart rant done now.

You guys are not alone either!

[Allen63]

I agree with the original post items 2 and 3.

I was spoiled by the attention to detail, provision of details, and open worlds in Oblivion, Two Worlds, Fallout 3. Then there were the shooters Far Cry, Crysis, Far Cry 2. And the various war-based games ... etc.

Wait, maybe I wasn't spoiled. Maybe that's what game worlds are supposed to be like post 2005AD -- a better facsimilie of "living worlds".

Still, I am not disappointed in the sense of feeling cheated. I got a lot of hours of entertainment out of DA. Rather, Bioware being one of the world class developers, I was hoping for more.

Modifié par Allen63, 30 décembre 2009 - 09:55 .

[biowherewolf]

i'm with you Allen63 and the OP.

It's a good game. A really, really *good* game, imho. Just... not a great one.

I give it a B+. Above average, sure. "Almost" great.. yeah. Just .. not quite.



I think it's my own fault, though. I fell for Bioware's marketing. I was/am waiting for Old Republic. When it got delayed, I actually bought a new laptop just to play Dragon Age (well, ok ... not *just* to play DAO, but that was my excuse).

So my expectations were probably too high.

Ah well. Not everything can be an "A"

--B.Where.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Wrath of Dagon wrote... The interactivity is making a decision at the end of the major quests, and fight mob after mob after mob. I want more variety of gameplay from an RPG, and that can only be accomplished through quests. And the quest design in DAO is sorely lacking. Yes I'd agree story is the most important factor, but only if that story is presented interactively, so that you feel you're fully participating. Same old gather 4 doohickeys in 4 places just doesn't cut it as a great interactive plot anymore.

Considering that you can influence by quite a lot the outcome of the story and the fate of it's characters, you can chose who to romance and all that, I'd say that DA:O offers more interactivity in the field of storytelling that most offerings of the same genre.

  It's like watching a movie which occassionally pauses to let you decide the fate of some of the characters. Except instead of watching a movie you're fighting mobs.

[Zabaniya]

PJN161 wrote...

BlarkW wrote...

You know, maybe it’s a generation gap or something but I have never read so much whining and complaining about a game in all my life. I’ve been playing computer games since SSI made computer games way back when.

I for one find the game completely awesome!! Sure there maybe a few very trivial gliches or bumps but nothing game ruining. People complaining of no decent robes ruining there immersion or a small bug ruining the game and selling it. Content not released right on the date it said it would be. Or DLC costing a whole FIVE dollars. Come on people, I mean I know that todays age group wants everything for free and are spoiled but man, cut Bioware a break. They made THE game of the year and for good darn reason!

Yes, I am a bit older then most of you kids here and someone needs to say it so I did. I also say, THANK YOU BIOWARE for making such a great game!

Hear Hear!
I can recall playing Colossal Cave adventure on a BBC-B back in 1983, and that hooked me into the CRPG genre.
There seems to be an awful lot of complaining because DA.O isnt "perfect"?
Funny that...because some of the greatest computer games of the last 25 years that are still talked about (and sometimes played) had major flaws.
The amazing Fallout 3 came as a result of the Oblivion Engine, both have glaring flaws, both are great games.
FO3 took years to arrive on back of two of the greatest games ever made..and I do mean "ever"....Fallouts 1 & 2.
Both of which were plagued with bugs, glitches, and graphical disasters.
You play ROUND faults in a good game, you play THROUGH minor niggles to feel the beating heart of the characters and the game itself.
If youre finding a game like DA.O disappointing, then youre perfectly entitled to do so, but to be fair, you sound like the kid who`s ripping open his christmas presents whilst asking his parents what he`s getting for his birthday...
Its always "next one must be bigger, better, brighter, louder."
I for one am finding DAO a real refreshing change.
I loved Morrowind, Oblivion, FO3...but having only half a dozen voice actors to cover hundreds and hundreds of NPCs was just tragic. The social interactions between party members is humerous and believable, the NPCs deliver their quest driven lines with believable gravitas, and the graphics arent shoddy.
All in all, whether is IS a worthy successor (spiritual or actual) to the brilliance of the Forgotten realms series, is irrelevent.
What is relevent is... good CRPGs are hardly being churned out on a weekly basis are they? so for me, apart from "the Witcher" , nothing has come close to a good CRPG since NWN1.

Ok, Old middle aged fart rant done now.

This is kinda why they say listen to your elders.

[StrangeCat Productions]

PJN161 wrote...

BlarkW wrote...

You know, maybe it’s a generation gap or something but I have never read so much whining and complaining about a game in all my life. I’ve been playing computer games since SSI made computer games way back when.

I for one find the game completely awesome!! Sure there maybe a few very trivial gliches or bumps but nothing game ruining. People complaining of no decent robes ruining there immersion or a small bug ruining the game and selling it. Content not released right on the date it said it would be. Or DLC costing a whole FIVE dollars. Come on people, I mean I know that todays age group wants everything for free and are spoiled but man, cut Bioware a break. They made THE game of the year and for good darn reason!

Yes, I am a bit older then most of you kids here and someone needs to say it so I did. I also say, THANK YOU BIOWARE for making such a great game!

Hear Hear!
I can recall playing Colossal Cave adventure on a BBC-B back in 1983, and that hooked me into the CRPG genre.
There seems to be an awful lot of complaining because DA.O isnt "perfect"?
Funny that...because some of the greatest computer games of the last 25 years that are still talked about (and sometimes played) had major flaws.
The amazing Fallout 3 came as a result of the Oblivion Engine, both have glaring flaws, both are great games.
FO3 took years to arrive on back of two of the greatest games ever made..and I do mean "ever"....Fallouts 1 & 2.
Both of which were plagued with bugs, glitches, and graphical disasters.
You play ROUND faults in a good game, you play THROUGH minor niggles to feel the beating heart of the characters and the game itself.
If youre finding a game like DA.O disappointing, then youre perfectly entitled to do so, but to be fair, you sound like the kid who`s ripping open his christmas presents whilst asking his parents what he`s getting for his birthday...
Its always "next one must be bigger, better, brighter, louder."
I for one am finding DAO a real refreshing change.
I loved Morrowind, Oblivion, FO3...but having only half a dozen voice actors to cover hundreds and hundreds of NPCs was just tragic. The social interactions between party members is humerous and believable, the NPCs deliver their quest driven lines with believable gravitas, and the graphics arent shoddy.
All in all, whether is IS a worthy successor (spiritual or actual) to the brilliance of the Forgotten realms series, is irrelevent.
What is relevent is... good CRPGs are hardly being churned out on a weekly basis are they? so for me, apart from "the Witcher" , nothing has come close to a good CRPG since NWN1.

Ok, Old middle aged fart rant done now.

What the heck?  Man Ultima Series had more going for it then DAO.  DAO is just a dissapointment to me I can't believe it!   I look to Indie groups to now to fill in the gaps where major Game developers can't even get basic machanics done right for a world and characters.
DAO's world is so dull it's a like a giant dull shallow world.  DAO's character interaction and choices of what to say is so pathetic, dark rpg?  Hardly!  Mature rpg?  not even.  It's written like a game for teens with some blood thrown in.
There is such a lack of atmosphere it's unbelievable!
I once again cannot believe that this is the team that created the Baldur's Gate series.  Oh well keep on developing your high end intereactive games.

Last good games i played was The Witcher and Mask of the Betrayer.

Maybe I'll check out DAO's expansion though just to see if they have learned anything with there huge talanted group of people they have.

 

[TyroneTasty]

I enjoyed it thoroughly. The companions were all very unique and well thought out, particularly Alistair who had a great arch through out. The plot was engaging, there were several heavy choices to be made, battles were intense, tactics were satisfying without being overpowered. I liked it. Second only to Baldur's Gate II.

These threads always seem so pointless to me. I guess I just don't see the point in trying to convince anyone why X game is so good. I'm sorry you are dissapointed in it, however.

Modifié par TyroneTasty, 23 janvier 2010 - 07:06 .

[Derengard]

Del wrote...


Ever since Bioware got into the console business, their crgps
have suffered in my opinion. Whether coincidence or not, I can not say.

I think that has rather to do with advanced technology that needs more overall resources (time, adjusting) in the development. Also the interest in trying new settings, shifting focus and producing more games in shorter time. I doubt it can be put down to a single reason.

Modifié par Derengard, 23 janvier 2010 - 09:35 .

[Coldcall01]

I do agree with the OP on some issues regarding linearity, though I dont see how DAO is any different than BG2 from a style and mechanics point of view. Bioware have continued with their set pattern of a linear story-led main plot with non-linear side quests. BG2 was no different in that mix of fixed main plot with some open ended capacity depending on timing of quests. So BG2 was no more open or non-linear than is DAO. However i can live with a linear plot-line if there is enough non-plot non-linearity allowing me to dip in and out of the main questline and make it *seem* more open ended than it really is.



I'm now almost at end of my 2nd playthrough and i have to admit being pretty bored now and unlikely to start a third playthrough until Awakenings and a few more DLCs are produced. The reason being i know the main plot and most sidequests very well now and I dont see a huge way to play the game differently than i did the first time (other than class and origin). The problem i think DAO will face will be a lack of integrational DLCs, which wont add to the overall game but instead come out in drips and drabs as disparate adventures for end of game charcter to continue. I personally would not playthrough the whole game again just to have a few extra hours adventuring after having defeated the archdemon. One would have to chug through say 40 hours of gaming just to get to the new content.



Okay i could be wrong and there will be great expansions and DLCs which eventually provide enough content (much of it available from the start of game) which will make it a 100 hour game with alot of choice of how to earn one's xp in whatever order.



But seeing how scripted the game is i fear there are going to be problems with expanding DAO so that all extra content can be explored at the time and choosing of the PC.



I guess the point i am trying to make is that DAO could be a great game if the extra content could be packed into the main game thereby giving us gamers a much greater capacity for non-linearity. So far i dont see it happening, unfortunately.

[Condge]

SPOILERS POSSIBLE:

I have to agree with his point on equipment. Uldred, the Redcliffe Castle Vault, Winterfang, Broodmother/Branka, Completion of Urn of Sacred Ashes Quest (Excluding High Dragon cause you don't actually have to do it) gave no interesting loot.

The gear my AW/BM is currently using is. Warden Commander - DLC, Helm of Honnleath - DLC, Lifegiver - Vendor, Andruil's Blessing - Vendor, etc. very little gear is really from the main BOSS

  Another Example: The massive armor sets: Juggernaut, Effort, and Legion of the Dead. None come from a "main quest" really.

Modifié par Condge, 23 janvier 2010 - 10:31 .

[Dragon Age1103]

[Sam -stone- serious]

Eisberg1977 wrote...

Del wrote...

I understand Bioware is known for story-based games as opposed to 'sandbox' games but even BG1 had vast areas to explore with little rhyme or reason. And remember chapter 2 of BG2? Amazing stuff. Although I do like a great big seamless world to explore, I also can appreciate a tight story-line that runs through it. In other words, it's all about balance to me and this game doesn't have it.

It was much much easier and less time consuming to make very large maps in the late 90s, since everything was 2D, and not a 3D rendered world with 3D rendered characters/NPCs.  Not to mention all the animations that need to be done.  Things are more focused now.

Thats only an excuse. Considering what CDproject red created with the -first- Aurora engine (modified of course but still) with the Witcher is more than just a reminder of what can be done in a reasonable ammount of time. We are not asking to be offered fully exporable square miles of land and villages/ cities. All we ask is to be able to explore each of the tile designed spaces we are offered and let us be free within this same boundary.

I mean Denerim.....a freakin CAPITAL  city....with only 6 doors for you to enter and less than 20 people combined...yeah..... Another one, Brecilian Forest......."forest" you say?  You mean 5 circles that are no bigger than 8 meters in diameter linked together via "stony" narrow passages is a "forest"? Even damn F.E.A.R. has bigger spaces to wonder about than this and its an FPS set in offices and such....

[Macadami]

Not as many 'world changing' choices as in The Witcher, not nearly as much variety and complexity in character builds as in NWN2, not near as epic of a story as BG2 nor sheer enjoyment out of companions personalities, and lacks the difficulty, randomness, and variety of encounters and truthfully really only has 1 or 2 direct paths for locations depending on if your melee or a mage.

Very obviously DA:O isn't a bad game, but it's just not the best game in really any relevant point. Perhaps it's strongest area is it's 'user-friendliness' The skills are simple to understand and encoporate in any battle, party AI is easily controllable and tailorable via the tactics setup, and by the time your lvl 15 or 16 you know exactly what you should change or want to try out in your next playthrough.  There are no difficult gear decisions, no complex character skill and stat interractions. It's all very 'for this class put every point in this stat' and even on nightmare the most poorly built character will never run into a brickwall. Replay's are about tweaking ever so slightly everything that you've already done, and never a truely new experience with new paths you should take, or new gear to be found.

I think perhaps the real problem is just that by this point in video game history, great games have already been made, and we the consumer hoped that Bioware would just combine the strongest points from each and create a new epic saga to quench that need to replay the classics. It's perhaps just too large of an undertaking especially with publishers pushing the console so strongly these last few years.

To me, BG2>Oblivion>The Witcher>NWN2>Torment>DA:O>Morrowwind>BG1>NWN1  It's a good game, but I think I'll skip on all the new DLC's and just don't expect DA:O to 'call to me' as BG2 or oblivion has over and over. Yes...yes.. Oblivion isn't even in the same category but these are video games meant for entertainment and that is exactly what the greats provide over and over.

Modifié par Macadami, 23 janvier 2010 - 04:01 .

[Jacody]

Modifié par Jacody, 23 janvier 2010 - 05:57 .

[Valmy]

Del wrote...

* EDIT: To avoid further confusion, I didn't mean to suggest that I was expecting a sandbox-style game. Rather something more along the lines of chapter 2 in BG2 where freedom to explore a dynamic world was embedded within the context of a stuctured story.

Um...maybe you played a different BG2 but chapter 2 in BG2 was just a bunch of side quests and points of interest...just like DAO.  Most of BG2 was almost completely linear.  There wasn't very much freedom of exploration in BG2 there was the city and a small number of wilderness maps each with side quests.  This was done because people did NOT like the whole freedom of exploration thing in BG1 where most of the maps were empty.

[Valmy]

Allen63 wrote...
I was spoiled by the attention to detail, provision of details, and open worlds in Oblivion, Two Worlds, Fallout 3. Then there were the shooters Far Cry, Crysis, Far Cry 2. And the various war-based games ... etc.

Well I find Bethesda games pretty generic and boring.  But alot of people love them.  That is great but I simply have no desire to play Oblivion or Fallout 3 but isn't it great that not every game is an exact copy of each other?  You can play Bethesda and I can play Bioware.

[Thekratos]

Del wrote...

As a fan of Bioware since BG1, I regret to say that I'm disappointed with Dragon Age. Although I haven't finished the game yet, I have very little motivation to keep playing, which is part of the problem. Billed as the 'spiritual successor of the BG series,' I find Dragon Age to be much more like Mass Effect, which I couldn't finish either. Yes the atmosphere is great. The story is compelling enough. And combat can be thrilling at times. It can also be a repetitive grind. My major complaints are as follows:

1. Character creation and development is extremely weak compared to the D&D standard. There is very little room for unique and compelling character builds. Three classes and four-tiered skill branches?! More importantly, there aren't any synergistic rewards for committing to a certain path. The way specializations are handled is very poor as well. Big disappointment here.

2. Lots of combat for very little reward. Most of the best items are for sale or unavoidable on the main plot. This means tons of vendor trash and a couple of giant leaps in equipment upgrades rather than more satisfying incremental increases.

3. Lack of an open-ended world to freely explore. Jumping around the world map from 'point of interest' to 'point of interest' quickly made me lose interest. You get some say in the order you do things but for the most part, the game is extremely linear. We are spoonfed the adventure instead of getting to create our own adventure (to the extent that is reasonably possible in a crpg).*

Ever since Bioware got into the console business, their crgps have suffered in my opinion. Whether coincidence or not, I can not say. Keep in mind this assessment is coming from somebody who would stubbornly argue with Dave G and others about implementing 'damage vs. size' in BG2. So I love complexity in my crpgs. Dragon Age just doesn't cut it in my opinion. Here's to hoping that a real D&D-based BG/NWN 3 hybrid will see the light of day in the not so distant future. Cheers!


* EDIT: To avoid further confusion, I didn't mean to suggest that I was expecting a sandbox-style game. Rather something more along the lines of chapter 2 in BG2 where freedom to explore a dynamic world was embedded within the context of a stuctured story.

Maybe you are just to used with BG grapich?   i'm used to to it  so dragon age was great, i also like BG's and NwN ect.. but if i go back to BG now i don't think il find it so great anymore 

[TheMadCat]

To me, BG2>Oblivion>The Witcher>NWN2>Torment>DA:O>Morrowwind>BG1>NWN1 It's a good game, but I think I'll skip on all the new DLC's and just don't expect DA:O to 'call to me' as BG2 or oblivion has over and over. Yes...yes.. Oblivion isn't even in the same category but these are video games meant for entertainment and that is exactly what the greats provide over and over.

Did you really just rate NWN2 and Oblivion higher then Planescape: Torment? I mean I understand personal preferences and individual opinions, but really?

I mean Denerim.....a freakin CAPITAL city....with only 6 doors for you to enter and less than 20 people combined...yeah..... Another one, Brecilian Forest......."forest" you say? You mean 5 circles that are no bigger than 8 meters in diameter linked together via "stony" narrow passages is a "forest"? Even damn F.E.A.R. has bigger spaces to wonder about than this and its an FPS set in offices and such....

Agree, I fully understand the emphasis should always be put primarily on the story in a Bioware game but I much rather see fewer areas which are more fleshed out then a bunch of areas which are mostly dull, constrained, and uninteresting.

[macrocarl]

In response to Del:



1. I thought the game was amazing! I thought making a character where it's open to what decisions you made made them more meaty and 'real' than AD&D...... Alignments are so 80's. I think the specializations could be tweaked a bit, but there was nothing I found that stopped immersion in the plot.



2. More varied loot would be cool, but I actually found myself focusing on stat development and tactics much more. Again, a big breath of fresh air from loot heavy AD&D games like NW2 etc.



3. I never got why open ended worlds are so popular. Getting lost and farting around seems to weaken the plot IMHO. I found the 3rd expansion in NW2 super weak and don't get me started on the Morrowind franchise! Totally boring! Larger areas with more hidden stuff would be a great addition though.....



For mew the big win for DA:O is the complexity of relationships, the moral greyness of the varied plot points and the Oh *hit cards Bioware pulls ever 5 minutes! I loves me some betrayal! Morigan is the richest, most complex romance option I've ever experienced......

[kasanza]

I seem to remember BG, BG2 and BG: TOB being linear with going from "point of interest" to "point of interest" as well. It wasn't like WOW where you can go most anywhere by foot. But I love that you chose how you want to accomplish the main story and the fact that there are a ton of side quest to push the 60hr mark if you listen to all the dialogue. I'm on my fourth playthrough and still having a blast (though this will be my last). The items may not be as random as Diablo 2, but that would require online play to work. This is the best all-around RPG I've ever played on a console. The only way it could've been better is if it was MMO, and that would require monthly fees.
 
I would suggest you continue playing and harbour no pre-conceived notions about the game. You will enjoy it more, I'm sure. I say this because in the first two weeks, I was turned off by this game as well. I was hoping for WOW and so I kept moving my character around the screen thinking he would keep attacking enemies. Also, I hated (and still hate) the targeting system on the console. I don't hate it as much now that I'm used to it, but my god is it hard to target yourself with a Force Field! I had my gripes but picked up the controller one weekend and made it into the Kokari Wilds. That's when the game got fun to me. Daveth and Jory had so much personality, as did Duncan, Alistair and Morrigan. The fighting was awful that early on on a first play-through, but on subsequent visits I find it to be one of the most enjoyable sections of the game.

My point is this: you've bought the game so why not delve deep and try to enjoy it?

Modifié par kasanza, 23 janvier 2010 - 06:41 .

[Wishpig]

I see Dragon Age very similar to Mass Effect. Mass Effect very good game, a borderline classic even. However it had some big flaws, and despite it's VERY strong strengths these flaws kept it from being one of the best. But it was a new franchise, new engine, and flaws are to be expected.



Now Mass Effect 2 seems to have conquered these flaws and if the reviews, videos, and such are any indication it will be amongst the best, a classic hands down.



I would bet on Dragon Age 2 doing the same as long as the devs prove capable of admitting and addressing the flaws.

[kasanza]

Bonkz wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

I'm still amazed at how many people keep doing technical comparisons between the BG series and DA:O as if they are actually similar in terms of development, cost, ect.

I really like Dragon Age, I think its a great game. I've played through once already as a warrior and i intend to play again. People just point out stuff on another Bioware game (BG2)  that made it excellent and it still is excellent to this day. I have also found myself wondering why things i expected aren't in DA but were in BG, it's only natural.
There will always be comparison of Bioware RPG's with BG2 to be honest because as it is till this day, BG2 is the greatest RPG they created. DA came close if you ask me. Its just the little things that are missing

As for the development/cost terms I agree that they can't be the same but Bio spoke about the spiritual succesor of BG way too much and got people to start comparing

Anyway i still believe that Bio has the ability to create an even greater game than DA in the future with the correct improvements

The only thing I liked more about  the BG series were the major villains. Sarevok and Irenicus and your other half siblings were all so cool and individualistic that they really stand out compared to most of the major baddies in DA:O. Even though Loghain was hounding you all game, it wasn't the same as when Sarevok and Jon were doing so. Amelisan's identity coming to light was also a shocker for me. The allies in DA:O seem fleshed-out better than the ones in BG, but the villains are the other half of the coin that's missing in this game.