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[arntson]

Cybercat999 wrote...

arntson wrote...
you killed a rapist and his guard sten kills a farmer and some CHILDREN and his wife

Qun dont see children in the same way as humans.

more reason for them to get annihilated

[kormesios]

Vergil_dgk wrote...
Huh, I guess that's some kind of explanation. Still isn't a very good one - why would that make him kill children as well as adults? Sounds more like rampage than panic to me.

No, it's not a good explanation, as Sten himself understands.  He went unhinged.  Everything became a threat.  Panic, rampage, rage, any word that implies total lack of reason works.

Once he calmed down, he was willing to die for his crimes.  Heck, he thought his death was necessary as a "Weak mind is a dangerous weapon."  If you have him with you when you see the guardian, he'll start going on, and Sten will simply respond: "I've always admitted that I failed."

That attitude, plus a personality that pushes back and expects to be pushed, makes him an interesting character IMHO.  Even his terseness when he doesn't trust you is interesting--he's serving to atone for his crimes, not to make you like him.

Whether he should be locked back up for the murders once the blight is over is a different question.

Modifié par kormesios, 29 décembre 2009 - 10:44 .

[Seagloom]

I dislike Sten. I'm tempted to leave it at that, as he deserves no elaboration considering he rarely offers the same.

Sten is plain boring in my opinion. It's too easy to gain high approval with him once you realize his quirks; which if you are perceptive, can be accomplished after two, maybe three conversations. He questions your actions on a regular basis, even with high approval, and barely evolves despite being shown evidence running contrary to his cultural beliefs.

He is also sexist and I find it very difficult... nigh impossible, to like a character that cannot wrap his head around the concept of a woman wanting to aspire to be more than his list of four possibilities.

Sten's subplot is, quite frankly, lame. Yes, I understand Quanari hail from an alien culture compared to Fereldans. No, that does not excuse a pigheaded attitude towards the people that gave your murdering self a chance at redemption. Redemption that is barely even deserved considering he killed those farmers and children over losing a blade he *knew* they did not have. For a man who claims to be in control of his own actions, and constantly rails against you for a lack of dedication, he sure slipped when his own resolve was tested.

He also claims everyone has their place, but is all too eager to gainsay your leadership, and during one quest even fights you to supplant it. So not only is Sten lacking in social niceties, adaptability, and shame, but he is also a hypocrite. He practically forgets about his past actions after finding his sword too. Ah well, I found my sword. I'm whole again. Mass murder? Oh, that doesn't bother me anymore. Let's just stop the Blight quickly so I can get back home.

Sten has two things going for him: his banter with other party members; which can be amusing admittedly. And his high strength that makes him a competent damage dealer after a few levels. The whole concept of a stranger in a strange land has not only been done to death, but more effectively and with better justification.

Despite all that I *have* used Sten a few times for a change of pace, but he is only one rung above Morrigan on my list of unlikeable party members.

Modifié par Seagloom, 29 décembre 2009 - 10:47 .

[tmp7704]

Seagloom wrote...

He also claims everyone has their place, but is all too eager to gainsay your leadership and during one quest even fights you to supplant. So not only is he lacking in social situations, adaptability, and shame, but he is also a hypocrite.

But his actual place in Qunari hierarchy is to be the squad leader*, that's his position when he came to Ferelden on his scout mission. So rather he's struggling with adapting to a role which isn't "him" than anything else.

*) "sten" is equivalent of "platoon commander" according to dev info, just to be exact.

Modifié par tmp7704, 29 décembre 2009 - 10:49 .

[Vergil_dgk]

Adanu wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

Huh, I guess that's some kind of explanation. Still isn't a very good one - why would that make him kill children as well as adults? Sounds more like rampage than panic to me.

Well, it's sort of panic-induced rampage. And yes, it's definitely not supposed to be good explanation (i.e. the sort warranting his reaction) which is why he chooses to accept the punishment for it, and waits for it to come. He regrets what he did and acknowledges his reasons did not excuse him.

Ok... I guess I agree with him... and my character agrees with him... He can stay in his cage and wait to feed the spawn.

You *want* to give the darkspawn more bodies? The guy *knows* he did something wrong. Sten is probably more honorable than the rest of your party combined save Leliana. Alistair is immature and uses humor to cover up his insecurities. Morrigan is a liar and a thief indirectly. The rest are hiding from their past. Sten accepts his past, regrets it, and does not go off on a whiny rant.

In fact, the only real fault I find with Sten would be that he is so rigid at times that he does not see battle in terms of a general, but rather a Sargeant... but in time you can change that. His people have no morale problems because of their duty.

If you leave him because of that, you are far worse than he is with honor.

Well, *knowing* you did something wrong doesn't make it right in my book. Some things are beyond redemption or at least beyond my wishing to be part of the journey towards it. My character is busy and can't help everyone and Sten comes off as one of the least deserving.

[kormesios]

Seagloom wrote...
He also claims everyone has their place, but is all too eager to gainsay your leadership and during one quest even fights you to supplant. So not only is he lacking in social situations, adaptability, and shame, but he is also a hypocrite. He practically forgets about his past actions after finding his sword too. Ah well, I found my sword. I'm whole again. Mass murder? Oh, that doesn't bother me anymore. Let's just stop the Blight quickly so I can get back home.

You are free to dislike Sten for the other reasons you mention, the murder and the unenlightened chauvinism, which are really quite adequate causes for disdain.  But this paragraph is pretty overboard.

There is no hypocrisy in him challenging you.  His "place" is warrior, not "servant of the PC," and while it may be inconvenient for you that is clearly how he views himself.

His shame and guilt are profound, he's never expressed any hurry to get home again to me, and he never says or implies the murders have stopped bothering him.

[arntson]

also he thinks mages are animals so **** him...

[arntson]

kormesios wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
He also claims everyone has their place, but is all too eager to gainsay your leadership and during one quest even fights you to supplant. So not only is he lacking in social situations, adaptability, and shame, but he is also a hypocrite. He practically forgets about his past actions after finding his sword too. Ah well, I found my sword. I'm whole again. Mass murder? Oh, that doesn't bother me anymore. Let's just stop the Blight quickly so I can get back home.

You are free to dislike Sten for the other reasons you mention, the murder and the unenlightened chauvinism, which are really quite adequate causes for disdain.  But this paragraph is pretty overboard.

There is no hypocrisy in him challenging you.  His "place" is warrior, not "servant of the PC," and while it may be inconvenient for you that is clearly how he views himself.

His shame and guilt are profound, he's never expressed any hurry to get home again to me, and he never says or implies the murders have stopped bothering him.

but the thing is once you free him he should be your slave like or at least prisoner but he acts as if hes just the same rank as everyone else which hes not sandal is a higher rank to me

[Vergil_dgk]

Jeez, I didn't wanna instigate a hate-fest, I was just wondering about this character that is all, and it may turn out he is not to my liking, but that others are fine with him. That ought to be ok with everyone, right?

[Herr Uhl]

Vergil_dgk wrote...

Jeez, I didn't wanna instigate a hate-fest, I was just wondering about this character that is all, and it may turn out he is not to my liking, but that others are fine with him. That ought to be ok with everyone, right?

This is the internets, it feeds on nerd-rage.

[ReubenLiew]

The power of the universe flows in the rage of nerds everywhere.

If one can but harness it, one could overturn the heavens itself.

[Obadiah]

Vergil_dgk wrote...
I think he says he "killed 8 people, including the children" - or maybe that was actually "apart from the children". That is really what puts me off him, seeing as I'm a 30 year old guy with two young kids and who works with torture victims. He reminds too much of certain psychopaths I've encountered at work... but, hey, that's just me!

Sten is disturbing. Here is the way I looked at it: Sten is not sorry that he killed a bunch of "innocent" people because it is wrong, he is sorry that he has dishonored himself and the Qunari by failing his mission, and by killing people that were absolutely no threat to him out of panic (I'm not sure if there's even anything called innocent civilian in Qunari society, and humans and elves are their enemy). In the Qunari rigid social structure death is a suitable punishment for this.

Sten does not empathise with people because he isn't human, and we are "it's" (completely objectified) to him, at least when you first meet him.

[bobsmyuncle]

Seagloom wrote...
He is also sexist and I find it very difficult... nigh impossible, to like a character that cannot wrap his head around the concept of a woman wanting to aspire to be more than his list of four possibilities.

Aspiration is not permitted in Qunari culture. Also, a minor nitpick, he's not sexist so much as he comes from a sexist culture. Qunari kids are taken from their parents and sent to education camps at a young age so I'm not surprised that he simply views your culture as inferior for allowing not just women to do anything they want to. Honestly, I was disappointed with his response to me asking if he was flirting when he asked if I was a woman, because I'm pretty sure Qunari don't court mates. It's probably all arranged by the same guy who assigns them their job in life.

Of course, my mage had enough of that "do as we tell you" tripe from the Chantry while she was in the Circle, so she argues with Sten constantly. She likes hearing about the Qun even if she'd never convert, though. She's insatiably curious.

In terms of storytelling, "foreigner with an alien culture" is older than sin and I can't really blame the writers for using it. I don't think it was done poorly, personally, but obviously YMMV.

[Residentz]

Not going to bother what everybody else wrote, but Sten + any other party member is super-funny. On the combat-front you need to boost his str to the max, dex to 18. The next thing you wanna do is have him flanking the enemies, therefor you need a solid tank to keep the enemies busy when Sten pulls of swings of 100+ dmg in their back of their skull. Have your mage freeze enemies and sten do a critcal strike = instant death (and win) Did I mention he plays with kittens? Ask leliana

[KnightofPhoenix]

arntson wrote...

also he thinks mages are animals so **** him...

While talking with Shale, he expressed a bit of disgust at Shale's hatred and bloodlust towards mages. He says that the Qunari do this to mages becaus it's necessary, not because they take pleasure in it. And judging from what we have seen, it seems  safer to just put the mages in chains.
He also says that the mages have a place in the Qun. That means that they aren't total trash.   

As for his crimes. Not once have Sten denied that what he did was wrong. He regrets what he did.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2009 - 11:08 .

[Fleapants]

ReubenLiew wrote...

The power of the universe flows in the rage of nerds everywhere.
If one can but harness it, one could overturn the heavens itself.

Here it is, Ladies and Gents.

The Tevinters did not use magic to visit the Golden City, oh no.

They used the Internet Hate Machine!

[Seagloom]

kormesios wrote...

You are free to dislike Sten for the other reasons you mention, the murder and the unenlightened chauvinism, which are really quite adequate causes for disdain.  But this paragraph is pretty overboard.

There is no hypocrisy in him challenging you.  His "place" is warrior, not "servant of the PC," and while it may be inconvenient for you that is clearly how he views himself.

His shame and guilt are profound, he's never expressed any hurry to get home again to me, and he never says or implies the murders have stopped bothering him.

His place is servant of the PC. He agrees to help you defeat the Blight after you release him. Emphasis on *help* defeat the Blight. Not do it for you. Not blatantly go back on his word by challenging you because he feels your decisions are a waste of time. You did not offer to bring him along as an advisor, guide, nor leader. It is clear from that first conversation that you only bring him for his combat skill.

At first, he does not express any interest in returning home. It comes across more as a death wish than anything. But after you give Sten his sword he is happy about the idea of returning and, if possible, relating a favorable report of resounding success against the Blight. His whole motivation changes from having a deathwish over a guilty conscience to picking up where he left off in the span of a sentence.

I consider issuing challenges and going back on his word hypocrisy when he all but gives you an oath to serve, and his attitude after finding his sword implies those murders bothered him more because he lost control and brought dishonor to himself, than the actual act of killing those people.

Modifié par Seagloom, 29 décembre 2009 - 11:20 .

[MatronAdena]

My nature is quite in line with a Buddhist lay out, and it's impossible for me to dislike him directly, ignoring what he is, his culture, his view of things is just as ignorant and wrong as his actions....He lost his " soul" when he lost his sword...that is what a blade is in his culture, it is who he is......

was it a act that had reason? yeah...not a good one, but it did

does he regret it? yes, and does in his heart want to atone for it...saving others is a good step



but lastly even in our world, you see people freak out in a fit of panic over even more mundane reasons



to me, in my view points, not allowing him to try and help protect, and ease the suffering of others is no different than as if I were the one who personally slaughtered the farmer, or at the very least did nothing to show respect to them....



find something about my idea to want to argue, and disagree with? That is perfectly fine, and it just prove a point about truly understanding what differs, and seeing things in a different light versus taking a one sided conclusion out of complacency.



once I understood what the sword means to his people...the more it made sense how he can panic and do what he did...it was a mistake, it was done in a moment of blindness....but we all do things similar as well...it was easier for me to see a different side of him.. his drive to make up for it is an act of compassion... if saving billions of lives is what it takes, then so be it...Allowing him to confront, and ease his own suffering accomplishes more than letting him be eaten by darkspawn will do. he knows what he's done, and will always carry that burden.

[Seagloom]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
He is also sexist and I find it very difficult... nigh impossible, to like a character that cannot wrap his head around the concept of a woman wanting to aspire to be more than his list of four possibilities.

Aspiration is not permitted in Qunari culture. Also, a minor nitpick, he's not sexist so much as he comes from a sexist culture. Qunari kids are taken from their parents and sent to education camps at a young age so I'm not surprised that he simply views your culture as inferior for allowing not just women to do anything they want to. Honestly, I was disappointed with his response to me asking if he was flirting when he asked if I was a woman, because I'm pretty sure Qunari don't court mates. It's probably all arranged by the same guy who assigns them their job in life.

Of course, my mage had enough of that "do as we tell you" tripe from the Chantry while she was in the Circle, so she argues with Sten constantly. She likes hearing about the Qun even if she'd never convert, though. She's insatiably curious.

In terms of storytelling, "foreigner with an alien culture" is older than sin and I can't really blame the writers for using it. I don't think it was done poorly, personally, but obviously YMMV.

Yes, I'm well aware of the differences in Qunari culture. Thing is, I have no issues taking an ethonocentric stance here because this is purely a matter of personal opinion. Sten approaches you in camp as if you are the first woman warrior he has ever seen; despite being in Ferelden for awhile. He finds the concept utterly unacceptable after brooching the same subject with other female party members, and despite the plethora of female warriors you meet during the game.

I understand his culture instilled those attitudes into him, but I find it hard to accept that he cannot adapt to a new concept when proof to the contrary is all around him. Being the product of a sexist culture does not make him feel less than sexist to me, and it is one of several reasons that he feels like an oddly contradictory character that is unchanging in some ways and illogically quick to cast aside his claimed beliefs in others.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well as a pragmatist, I find it difficult to justify to myself why I can't take Sten along to fight the Blight. He is useful. I am not going to turn away his help because "Oh he is so different", or "omg, he is sexist!". I don't really give a damn. He can kill darkspawn. That's good enough for me. He has his own culture and his own beliefs and he is welcomed to believe in them, as long as he fights the blight. Period.

That's lore wise.



Gameplay wise, he isn't the best. But I bring him along anyhow, as he usually agrees with my actions.

[Seagloom]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well as a pragmatist, I find it difficult to justify to myself why I can't take Sten along to fight the Blight. He is useful. I am not going to turn away his help because "Oh he is so different", or "omg, he is sexist!". I don't really give a damn. He can kill darkspawn. That's good enough for me. He has his own culture and his own beliefs and he is welcomed to believe in them, as long as he fights the blight. Period.
That's lore wise.

Gameplay wise, he isn't the best. But I bring him along anyhow, as he usually agrees with my actions.

Hey, I can play the pragmatist too. That is why I brought him along rather than leaving him to rot in Lothering. All I'm saying is that from an OOC perspective I dislike him for various reasons. Now, from an IC perspective, my PC would still dislike him after that fateful conversation in camp. Well, maybe not all of them. But I can see how a Human Noble, City Elf, Dalish Elf, Dwarven Commonor, or Dwarven Noble would not be keen on his view of women. Particularly the two noble and elven origins that had combat training and are reminded by NPCs over and over again how they excel it compared to almost everyone else around them.

So yes, I would use Sten. But I do not like him. There is a difference.

Modifié par Seagloom, 29 décembre 2009 - 11:29 .

[Tirigon]

Sten has strong views. They might not be the views I consider to be the best, but it´s a nice change compared to the rest of your party, whom you have to tell what to believe all the time (and, even worse, if it´s not what they want to hear, they disapprove). Besides of that, he is a very good 2handed warrior.

[IAuronI]

I took it at my first playtrough, but second I just let him be on cage because i didn't need 2h warrior... And don't really see any good at it

[Fleapants]

Seagloom wrote...
Yes, I'm well aware of the differences in Qunari culture. Thing is, I have no issues taking an ethonocentric stance here because this is purely a matter of personal opinion. Sten approaches you in camp as if you are the first woman warrior he has ever seen; despite being in Ferelden for awhile. He finds the concept utterly unacceptable after brooching the same subject with other female party members, and despite the plethora of female warriors you meet during the game.

I understand his culture instilled those attitudes into him, but I find it hard to accept that he cannot adapt to a new concept when proof to the contrary is all around him. Being the product of a sexist culture does not make him feel less than sexist to me, and it is one of several reasons that he feels like an oddly contradictory character that is unchanging in some ways and illogically quick to cast aside his claimed beliefs in others.

He's a fundamentalist.
Just as fundamentalists in our world have a hard time imagining women do such things as vote, drive cars or speak out against their husbands in public even though they know it happens in other countries, Sten have a hard time seeing women as anything but artists and such.
He can obviously see what's going on around him, but his Qun teachings tells him that it's wrong and unacceptable.

[KnightofPhoenix]

double post, sorry.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2009 - 11:34 .