127 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Seagloom wrote...
Hey, I can play the pragmatist too. That is why I brought him along rather than leaving him to rot in Lothering. All I'm saying is that from an OOC perspective I dislike him for various reasons. Now, from an IC perspective, my PC would still dislike him after that conversation. Well, maybe not all of them. But I can see how a Human Noble, City Elf, Dalish Elf, Dwarven Commonor, or Dwarven Noble would not be keen on his view of women. Particularly the two nobles and elves that had combat training and are reminded by the game over and over again how they excel it compared to just about everyone else around them.

So yes, I would use Sten. But I do not like him. There is a difference.

My comment wasn't aimed at you in particular.
Of course, you can always dislike him.

Now say, if I met a woman from the mythical Amazon cultures who hates men, I don't think it's impossible for me to like her, while still disagreeing with her.
Furthermore, I think, and correct me if I am wrong, even as a female he ends up calling you "kadan" if he likes you enough. And if you make the ultimate sacrifice, he goes back to his lands and says that there was only one person who impressed him, which could be a female Warden.
That shows that he can change his views, or at least reform them.

And he isn't sexist as in "women are trash". The Qun believe in equality. All are equal. They just have specific tasks that they should stick to. He doesn't deny that women can be great. He just doesn't see why women want to do a task that is taken care of by others.
But at no point did he seem, at least to me, to say that women are inferior.   

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2009 - 11:33 .

[Seagloom]

Fleapants wrote...

He's a fundamentalist.
Just as fundamentalists in our world have a hard time imagining women do such things as vote, drive cars or speak out against their husbands in public even though they know it happens in other countries, Sten have a hard time seeing women as anything but artists and such.
He can obviously see what's going on around him, but his Qun teachings tells him that it's wrong and unacceptable.

Normally I would be in agreement here. I have secondhand experience with this sort of cultural thinking through one of my sisters. Thing is, Sten does not have to imagine it. He can see it firsthand. He fights alongside women that can not only pull their own weight, but can likely hold their own against him if it came to that. Yet he does not display even the slighest hesitation when faced with that. I find that hard to believe; especially considering the high possibility any of them can die during the quest.

I suppose Sten could merely be incredibly stubborn in his beliefs, but it takes a great suspension of my disbelief to accept that as an explantion.

[MatronAdena]

actually it's that mentality of " turning things around to make it sound that women are hated" that made me walk out of a women history class in university.... they were talking about a very prominent female chieftain in Scottish society, but utterly warped history to make it sound she was there because they knew her role was a death sentence....and warped the reason why women during the bronze and dark ages were homebodies more often.....takig away the real reason to put in a " we are the victims" reasons * lol*



but when it comes to sten I don't see sexism...What I see is someone from a culture where BOTH men and women have NO say in what they become, his culture women typically become priests, and such....which culturally is a VERY VERY VERY powerful place to be... What Sten has problems seeing is not so much the issue of your sex...what it boggling his mind is how people in ferelden have the choice do decide what they want to be, and can change that at any time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MatronAdena wrote...

actually it's that mentality of " turning things around to make it sound that women are hated" that made me walk out of a women history class in university.... they were talking about a very prominent female chieftain in Scottish society, but utterly warped history to make it sound she was there because they knew her role was a death sentence....and warped the reason why women during the bronze and dark ages were homebodies more often.....takig away the real reason to put in a " we are the victims" reasons * lol*

but when it comes to sten I don't see sexism...What I see is someone from a culture where BOTH men and women have NO say in what they become, his culture women typically become priests, and such....which culturally is a VERY VERY VERY powerful place to be... What Sten has problems seeing is not so much the issue of your sex...what it boggling his mind is how people in ferelden have the choice do decide what they want to be, and can change that at any time.

Presicely! I think I love you lol
No but seriously. At no point did Sten say "lol women are inferior and useless".
It's a society built upon tasks. Every class and every gender has a specific task. No one has a say in it. It just is that way.

Perhaps in the Qunari specie, the female is usually, physically weaker than the male (just like humans, eh). Hence why it doesn't make sense for them to make Qunari females fight when they are not "built" to do so. It's not sexism as in thinking that males are superior to females in every way. 
  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2009 - 11:47 .

[Seagloom]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My comment wasn't aimed at you in particular.
Of course, you can always dislike him.

Now say, if I met a woman from the mythical Amazon cultures who hates men, I don't think it's impossible for me to like her, while still disagreeing with her.
Furthermore, I think, and correct me if I am wrong, even as a female he ends up calling you "kadan" if he likes you enough. And if you make the ultimate sacrifice, he goes back to his lands and says that there was only one person who impressed him, which could be a female Warden.
That shows that he can change his views, or at least reform them.

And he isn't sexist as in "women are trash". The Qun believe in equality. All are equal. They just have specific tasks that they should stick to. He doesn't deny that women can be great. He just doesn't see why women want to do a task that is taken care of by others.
But at no point did he seem, at least to me, to say that women are inferior.

Ah, I apologize then. I was doing so many things at once, I assumed it was a response to me seeing as there were three others upthread. I like some things about Sten. Specifically his dry humor and ability to convey some complex ideas in extremely succinct ways. I just find it hard to look past the rest. My opinion on Sten would probably be more favorable if he was fleshed out more.

Ah, well, since I have not read that epilogue I could not base anything on it. I stand corrected on the reforming bit then. The Kadan part, I'm not s impressed by. It's a sign of respect for having found his sword and earning his favor, but... it feels diminished when you cannot revisit those past conversation topics or hear anything that implies a changing view. Then the whole Sacred Ashes thing really throws a wrench in it. Still, I like him just a bit more based on that ending.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Perhaps in the Qunari specie, the female is usually, physically weaker than the male (just like humans, eh). Hence why it doesn't make sense for them to make Qunari females fight when they are not "built" to do so. It's not sexism as in thinking that males are superior to females in every way.   

I still wonder how they look 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

From a game mechanics POV, I rarely ever take Sten along because he just dies to easy. I really hate two-handed talents, they take so frigging long to execute.



From an RP point of view, it's a shame, because Sten has a very alien and strange view on life that really adds to the RP experience. Of all your companions, his belief system is the most foreign, most out of place, and how he sees and views things is an interest contrast and commentary on life in Ferelden. I myself find the Qun to be as repugnant as the Chantry crap, (not because of his views on women, but because it resembles a borg-like absolutism spread by the sword) yet it is this opposition and his concrete adherence to his world view that makes him all the more interesting.



And of course, he likes cookies. The part where he bribes the templar at the Circle docks with cookies for passage, and tells you he stole them from some fat kid "for his own good" just made me wish their was a mighty "high five, bro" option.

[MatronAdena]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MatronAdena wrote...

actually
it's that mentality of " turning things around to make it sound that
women are hated" that made me walk out of a women history class in
university.... they were talking about a very prominent female
chieftain in Scottish society, but utterly warped history to make it
sound she was there because they knew her role was a death
sentence....and warped the reason why women during the bronze and dark
ages were homebodies more often.....takig away the real reason to put
in a " we are the victims" reasons * lol*

but when it comes to
sten I don't see sexism...What I see is someone from a culture where
BOTH men and women have NO say in what they become, his culture women
typically become priests, and such....which culturally is a VERY VERY
VERY powerful place to be... What Sten has problems seeing is not so
much the issue of your sex...what it boggling his mind is how people in
ferelden have the choice do decide what they want to be, and can change
that at any time.

Presicely! I think I love you lol
No but seriously. At no point did Sten say "lol women are inferior and useless".
It's a society built upon tasks. Every class and every gender has a specific task. No one has a say in it. It just is that way.

Perhaps
in the Qunari specie, the female is usually, physically weaker than the
male (just like humans, eh). Hence why it doesn't make sense for them
to make Qunari females fight when they are not "built" to do so. It's
not sexism as in thinking that males are superior to females in every
way. 
  

awh flattery

well again and " like humans" Females tend to live very very short lives....a role as a priestess, sage, Chieftain is a powerful place to be.... but I assume they also don't breed, so they live quite a long time....in an age like this, most women do NOT survive childbirth and should we survive the first one we tend to die of malnutrition, and fatigue after another 1, or 2 pop out. Forgetting the fact Females were the ones themselves who largely decided that WE dictate and take care of home life, so the males could hunt, and war...there is also the knowledge that we wont live long, and so women are kept in " safer" positions and tasks because we were cherished, keeping us alive as long as possible...

this is also most likely why Qunari females take on similar roles...priestess, sage, story tellers...if you think about it that way....we ( as women) are keepers of their culture, we are their identity...and a good mother is respected more than a warrior any day

Modifié par MatronAdena, 29 décembre 2009 - 11:55 .

[arntson]

from an rp prospective my i hate him he likes to rush convos to much and he thinks your inferior in the beggining

from a gameplay perspective ohgren is better. also ohgren+morrigan is wynne

Modifié par arntson, 29 décembre 2009 - 11:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Seagloom wrote...
Ah, I apologize then. I was doing so many things at once, I assumed it was a response to me seeing as there were three others upthread. I like some things about Sten. Specifically his dry humor and ability to convey some complex ideas in extremely succinct ways. I just find it hard to look past the rest. My opinion on Sten would probably be more favorable if he was fleshed out more.

Ah, well, since I have not read that epilogue I could not base anything on it. I stand corrected on the reforming bit then. The Kadan part, I'm not s impressed by. It's a sign of respect for having found his sword and earning his favor, but... it feels diminished when you cannot revisit those past conversation topics or hear anything that implies a changing view. Then the whole Sacred Ashes thing really throws a wrench in it. Still, I like him just a bit more based on that ending.

No apologies needed

As for the "kadan" part. I think him saying kadan is very serious business. "Kadan" is almost like a hero figure for the Qun. Even as a male PC, he tells me at the end that he never thought he would call a human a "Kadan". So him calling a female "Kadan" is a big deal for him. You might not think it is for you, but from his perspective, it is.
In fact, I ended up smiling when Sten called my PC kadan, because I know how important this is to him. It's like the Qunari way of saying "I love and admire you" lol. In fact, kadan means: "Term for something one values highly. Or sometimes the center of the chest. (Literally, "where the heart lies.") "
Isn't that sweet?
You can compare it to the dwarven paragon title I think.

[Cybercat999]

Vergil_dgk wrote...

Jeez, I didn't wanna instigate a hate-fest, I was just wondering about this character that is all, and it may turn out he is not to my liking, but that others are fine with him. That ought to be ok with everyone, right?

I am fine with him. I would be more fine with him if he had one more spec point but its not game breaking. I used respec mod to swap him with Alistair in my last few games.

[Fleapants]

Seagloom wrote...

Fleapants wrote...

He's a fundamentalist.
Just as fundamentalists in our world have a hard time imagining women do such things as vote, drive cars or speak out against their husbands in public even though they know it happens in other countries, Sten have a hard time seeing women as anything but artists and such.
He can obviously see what's going on around him, but his Qun teachings tells him that it's wrong and unacceptable.

Normally I would be in agreement here. I have secondhand experience with this sort of cultural thinking through one of my sisters. Thing is, Sten does not have to imagine it. He can see it firsthand. He fights alongside women that can not only pull their own weight, but can likely hold their own against him if it came to that. Yet he does not display even the slighest hesitation when faced with that. I find that hard to believe; especially considering the high possibility any of them can die during the quest.

I suppose Sten could merely be incredibly stubborn in his beliefs, but it takes a great suspension of my disbelief to accept that as an explantion.

He knows that his culture is correct, and that the non-Qun are incorrect - at least until a certain point where he grudgingly admits that the hero does infact kick ass despite being female. So he does change a bit over time, but it's his conviction in the Qun that makes him stubborn.

I see a lot of similarities between how someone like Sten thinks and a distant family member of mine who believes in Christian Science, but I really don't want to drag any potential touchy real life comparisons into this ^^

[KnightofPhoenix]

MatronAdena wrote...
awh flattery

well again and " like humans" Females tend to live very very short lives....a role as a priestess, sage, Chieftain is a powerful place to be.... but I assume they also don't breed, so they live quite a long time....in an age like this, most women do NOT survive childbirth and should we survive the first one we tend to die of malnutrition, and fatigue after another 1, or 2 pop out. Forgetting the fact Females were the ones themselves who largely decided that WE dictate and take care of home life, so the males could hunt, and war...there is also the knowledge that we wont live long, and so women are kept in " safer" positions and tasks because we were cherished, keeping us alive as long as possible...

this is also most likely why Qunari females take on similar roles...priestess, sage, story tellers...if you think about it that way....we ( as women) are keepers of their culture, we are their identity...and a good mother is respected more than a warrior any day

Agreed. There is not a single culture that inherently hates women or think they are inferior in absolute (contrary to modern propaganda bs).




  

[kormesios]

Seagloom wrote...

kormesios wrote...

You are free to dislike Sten for the other reasons you mention, the murder and the unenlightened chauvinism, which are really quite adequate causes for disdain.  But this paragraph is pretty overboard.

There is no hypocrisy in him challenging you.  His "place" is warrior, not "servant of the PC," and while it may be inconvenient for you that is clearly how he views himself.

His shame and guilt are profound, he's never expressed any hurry to get home again to me, and he never says or implies the murders have stopped bothering him.

His place is servant of the PC. He agrees to help you defeat the Blight after you release him. Emphasis on *help* defeat the Blight. Not do it for you. Not blatantly go back on his word by challenging you because he feels your decisions are a waste of time. You did not offer to bring him along as an advisor, guide, nor leader. It is clear from that first conversation that you only bring him for his combat skill.

No, you're just wrong on that.  You don't like the Qunari, fine, but you're making up a version of their culture that isn't in the game, then saying Sten is a hypocrite for not fitting into your invented rules.

First, "place" is defined by profession in the conversations.  Sten mentions farmer, merchant, warrior.  None of the examples relate to position in the hierarchy.  There's no hint that soldiers, say, never get promoted or merchants don't grow rich. 

Second, he does not swear an oath to follow you, or say that he's going to be a loyal sword arm, at least in my options.  He doesn't emphasize the word "help".  He leaves because fighting the blight is a valid way to seek atonement, though he will say oturight in one of the options that if you don't lead him to his atonement, he'll seek it out elsewhere.

I'm sorry that in your mind you thought you were getting an obedient slave shackled to your will by his guilt.  But that's not what Sten was offering, and it's not his fault you mis-interpreted what you were getting.

His whole motivation changes from having a deathwish over a guilty conscience to picking up where he left off in the span of a sentence.

Does the motivation change or the topics of conversation?  Is there some line of conversation if he has the sword in which he expresses indifference to the crimes all of a sudden?  Or do you not just talk about it anymore?

I always give him the sword late in the game, long after I've worn out the the guilt topics.  When I have given him the sword, he says he can go home now, but volunteers to stay.  And he *never*, sword or no, indulges in self-flagellation for his own or anyone else's benefit, so you're not going to find him volunteering stuff either way.

I consider issuing challenges and going back on his word hypocrisy when he all but gives you an oath to serve,

Again, there's no oath to serve when I've recruited him.  He says "Very well, I will seek my atonement with you."  That is a statement of intent, again made more clear in one option where he says he'll leave if he's not finding what he want.

and his attitude after finding his sword implies those murders bothered him more because he lost control and brought dishonor to himself, than the actual act of killing those people.

I do think there is some level of truth to this; I don't think the "more" part is true but the failure at his duty, and to the qunari, is a signficant factor. 

As I said, hating him for the murders is sufficient reason to dislike the man.

[AtreiyaN7]

If you talk to Sten, it's clear that he's remorseful about the murders. He even waited around to be arrested. The problem may be that his culture is so alien to yours that you can't see past what he did to learn more about him. I was intrigued enough by what he said about it that I saved him and gave him a way to atone. I used him much more on my second or third playthrough but my usual lineup is Alistair, Leliana & Wynne. Anyhow, the Qunari philosophy and culture are interesting.

[fantasypisces]

Vergil_dgk wrote...

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

Chains-Gore wrote...

Sten is pretty awesome in my opinion. The banter he has with the other party members while you travel is pretty great, and I'm into his deep seeded sense of honnor. As far as the murder goes he turned himself in and was accepting of his fate. He knew he had done something wrong and his only real drive to join you in the first place is to face almost certain doom against the blight in order to repent for his crimes. He may be cold at first but thats because of his cultural background. The dude wanted to die because he had lost his honnor in a few ways, and through the course of the adventure you have the opportunity to help him regain that lost honnor.

Ok, I'll come out and ask why he killed that family. This is the spoiler forum after all, and unless there was a really good reason for that act, I just don't to associate with the guy.

He and his scouting squad were attacked by darkspawn, he was the only survivor. Their bodies were picked over for loot by scavengers. Then some farmers found them and realized Sten was alive, so they took him back to their farmhold to take care of him. When he woke up, his sword was gone, he panicked and killed everyone around him. Then when he realized what he'd done, he stayed at the farm until templars came to see what happened, and he chose not to resist arrest. When he's in the cage he will refuse any offers of food and water and believes that being eaten by darkspawn is his just desert. You get him to join you by trying to convince him to do some good with his death, that is, fight the horde to protect innocents in order to regain his lost honor.

Re: the sword, because he was assigned to be a warrior in Qunari society, losing his sword is like abandoning the Qun. He panicked when he couldn't find it and believed the farmers were keeping it from him, though later in the cage he acknowledges that such a notion is ridiculous and that they had no reason to hide his sword. This is why he submits to punishment, because he believes he has dishonored his people.

Huh, I guess that's some kind of explanation. Still isn't a very good one - why would that make him kill children as well as adults? Sounds more like rampage than panic to me.

Oh I dunno why don't you actually... I dunno, TRY TALKING TO HIM!
Yes he killed a family, he regrets it, that is why he wants to stay in the cage. That doesn't intrigue you at all? Shoot, I don't like Sten (for different reasons) but I at least talked to him in camp, it isn't very hard to bring the conversation up.

It's literally:
Have a conversation with him about why he was in the cage, he doesn't really tell you.
Give him two paintings or a couple other gifts.
Beat one quest-line (mage-twoer, forest, redcliffe, whatever) then when he confronts you for wasting time, tell him your not there to impress him.
Boom, he announces you Kadan, and tells you his reason.
It doesn't take long at all.

[tmp7704]

Seagloom wrote...

His place is servant of the PC. He agrees to help you defeat the Blight after you release him. Emphasis on *help* defeat the Blight. Not do it for you. Not blatantly go back on his word by challenging you because he feels your decisions are a waste of time.

Actually... the conversation after his release goes like:

Sten: And so it is done. I will follow you into battle. In doing so I shall find my atonement.
PC:  And what if I don't lead you to your atonement?
Sten: Then I will find it myself. May we proceed? I am eager to be elsewhere.

this is quite different from what you think he said, wouldn't you agree?

there's a fair warning there he won't follow you blindly no matter where you wish to go. And technically, there's also no promise he'll specifically help you defeat the Blight. Sten is very literal in his everyday talk, if you read more into what he says than what he actually says, then it's not really his problem but the player's.

edit: though on the other hand it is possible to have him tell you he'll follow you to fight the Blight specifically, in the dialogue while he's still imprisoned. Would guess it's one of these cases where the dialogue tries to cover multiple situations.

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 décembre 2009 - 01:28 .

[Rivie]

I usually take him along at some point. He's a fairly good warrior.

I have him specced berserker. With his two hander it does rather decently.

[Tirigon]

One thing to remember about his crime: While killing 3 families with bare hands is a serious crime, it does also show he is a great warrior. I mean, killing even a single person barehanded is not easy.

I think he is typical "Warden material": A great fighter, who, because of his crimes and (as one later finds out) because of the loss of his sword cant get back to his former life. He has nothing to loose, nor anything that can keep him from his task to defeat the blight. Just what the wardens need. Ser Jory shows what happens if you try to recruit people who have their own life.

[Skellimancer]

Vergil_dgk wrote...

But what is it that makes him awesome? Please, I want to understand:huh:

He is the only henchman i didn't want to stab to death towards the end. Quite an achivement!

[Tirigon]

Skellimancer wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

But what is it that makes him awesome? Please, I want to understand:huh:

He is the only henchman i didn't want to stab to death towards the end. Quite an achivement!

But you *did* want to slap him every now and then at least, I hope? Would be quite shocking if you didnt.

[Skellimancer]

Tirigon wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...

But what is it that makes him awesome? Please, I want to understand:huh:

He is the only henchman i didn't want to stab to death towards the end. Quite an achivement!

But you *did* want to slap him every now and then at least, I hope? Would be quite shocking if you didnt.

No, i thought he was the most interesting person in the game. I enjoyed our duel, our debates and learning about his people.

[Exploding8]

Sten is awesome. I haven't used him much ingame because Alistair is a better tank, but the conversations and story behind him are the best in the game imo. You have to earn his loyalty and respect, but once you do he's with you to the end. Like a wookie, but more hairy.



... wait.....

[robertthebard]

Seagloom wrote...

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
He is also sexist and I find it very difficult... nigh impossible, to like a character that cannot wrap his head around the concept of a woman wanting to aspire to be more than his list of four possibilities.

Aspiration is not permitted in Qunari culture. Also, a minor nitpick, he's not sexist so much as he comes from a sexist culture. Qunari kids are taken from their parents and sent to education camps at a young age so I'm not surprised that he simply views your culture as inferior for allowing not just women to do anything they want to. Honestly, I was disappointed with his response to me asking if he was flirting when he asked if I was a woman, because I'm pretty sure Qunari don't court mates. It's probably all arranged by the same guy who assigns them their job in life.

Of course, my mage had enough of that "do as we tell you" tripe from the Chantry while she was in the Circle, so she argues with Sten constantly. She likes hearing about the Qun even if she'd never convert, though. She's insatiably curious.

In terms of storytelling, "foreigner with an alien culture" is older than sin and I can't really blame the writers for using it. I don't think it was done poorly, personally, but obviously YMMV.

Yes, I'm well aware of the differences in Qunari culture. Thing is, I have no issues taking an ethonocentric stance here because this is purely a matter of personal opinion. Sten approaches you in camp as if you are the first woman warrior he has ever seen; despite being in Ferelden for awhile. He finds the concept utterly unacceptable after brooching the same subject with other female party members, and despite the plethora of female warriors you meet during the game.

I understand his culture instilled those attitudes into him, but I find it hard to accept that he cannot adapt to a new concept when proof to the contrary is all around him. Being the product of a sexist culture does not make him feel less than sexist to me, and it is one of several reasons that he feels like an oddly contradictory character that is unchanging in some ways and illogically quick to cast aside his claimed beliefs in others.

Why do you find it hard to accept?  You are doing much the same thing to him he's doing to your PC.  Culture shock FTW?  He finds it hard to believe a lot of things he sees in our culture, such as children playing, Merchants trying to be Nobles and Nobles trying to be warriors.  Let alone female warriors.  Frankly, I found that whole conversation funny.  Anyway, his culture is just as alien to you as Ferelden culture is to him, and you act as if he should change who he is to suit you.  Neither of you have to change, he is who he is, and frankly, getting respect from Sten is far more important to me that getting respect from anyone else in the camp, or the game.  Dog and Sten are the two true warriors, well, maybe Oghren, when he's sober, that first five minutes in the morning... 

My current party is the Ashes Trailer party, and I'm loving it.  PC is another dual wield rogue, I love that class.  Alistair hasn't been out of camp since Lothering, and won't, until Eamon spills his beans.  I'll have to have Oghren and Shale for part of Orzammar, but I see me taking this party everywhere else, save the Circle, where I'll use Wynne for Morrigan, until we finish.  Then it's right back to that group as long as I can ride it out.  I'm self sacrificing this party, and it's going to be easy with my male PC, and Alistair at 14ish approval.

[B33ker]

Having Sten around can lead to some of the best party banter you'll hear in game, such as this gem here.....

rapidshare.com/files/323697273/Sten_Morrigan_Sex.mp3

"You will need armor I think, and a helmet, and something to bite down on...." 

That made me LOL for a good 10 minutes when I first heard it.