243 réponses à ce sujet

[Thalamask]

As per the title. I've had this game pretty much since launch, and I've been watching the evolution of MP since about April when I decided to give it a go. Over that time, it's become increasingly clear that BW is pushing an in-your-face, run 'n gun combat style by actively penalising range and immobility. That's a pretty odd choice, given that Mass Effect is, ya know, a third-person, cover-based shooter and not an arcade-based UT-type shooter.

In support of my position:

• It's generally agreed that sniper rifles are substantially less useful than other weapon classes, particularly shotguns.
• Once you start to climb the difficulty ladder, most AR's are drastically underpowered. There are exceptions, but those are SO good at lower difficulties that they're perpetually under the damoclean-sword of the nerf-bat.
• As difficulty rises, damage increases and the ability to be "out of cover" drops. Which is fine. But that universally promotes high spike-damage weapons (like shotguns and sniper rifles... oh wait... not sniper rifles, 'cause they're not up to snuff, so just shotguns) and mobility so that you can keep right-cornering the stuff charging towards you.
• All enemies have units designed to force you into mobility. Banshees, Brutes, Pyro's (esp. post-buff!), Hunters, Phantoms, Dragoons, Scions and Praetorians.
• All enemy units that are designed to keep you IN cover (Atlas, Nemesis, Marauders, Ravagers, Rocket Troopers, Primes etc.) are usually better solved by mobility (moving out of their line of fire and ignoring them until you've got nothing better to do) than by actually using cover, which completely defeats the purpose.
• If you consider all the maps, there's a general trend towards short-range combat, or neutrality. There are almost no maps where short-range combat is a penalty. See map analysis below.
• Hazards that doesn't affect everybody equally (e.g. the reactor core) tend towards penalising long-ranged combat more than short-ranged. Even something like acid rain (which would tend to keep people inside, and therefore looks like a boost for long-range) will penalise long-range more than short-range. Given the enemy programming to bum-rush you, it's virtually guaranteed that they'll all be inside with you LONG before the wave is over, and short-range combat rules the roost again...

So yeah... I'd love for them to respond to this. I, for one, am not loving the direction MP is heading in, even if I do love some aspects of it.

• Dagger is good for long-range, but it twisty enough that you can short-range easily enough if you want to. 1/2 point to LR.
• Ghost has both long-range and short-range areas. No winner.
• Giant has both long- and short-range sections. No winner.
• Glacier is almost exclusively short-range. +1 SR.
• Reactor has some good LR sightlines, but it's so twisty that the second any short-range dudes run off, the enemy starts spawning behind you and SR can move and fight freely anyway. +1/2 SR.
• White (esp the new one!) is very much a close-range, indoor battle. You still have that long-range outside bit, but there are so many more ways to approach your position now that you can't concentrate and clear the enemies that way. +1 SR.
• Condor is pretty clearly a long-range map. SR can still succeed, but LR is generally more useful. +1 LR.
• Hydra looks like a strong LR contender but, given that it's SO open, you're generally taking too much fire to be really useful. If you're playing LR, you basically HAVE to have SR backup weapons, but if it's relatively easy for SR's to use the buildings to force the enemies to come to them. No winner.
• Goddess. +1 SR. Like I need to explain that.
• Jade is basically in the same boat as Hydra. Looks like a LR map, but when played basically comes out even. No winner.
• London is a nice LR map. Lack of choke-points makes SR backup vital. +1/2 LR.
• Rio is only an LR map if you're a loonie and playing on low difficulties.  For the rest of us, it's short-medium range. +1/2 SR.
• Vancouver has long, open sight-lines, but the abundance of cover generally makes a good, corner-humping shotgun far and away your best friend. +1/2 SR.
• Dagger Hazard, +1 SR.
• Reactor Hazard, +1/2 SR.

Final Scores:
Long-range - 2 points
Short-range - 5 1/2 points

[Mandalore313]

Oh trust me, they hate melee combat as well.
Have you tried the turian havoc in a melee spec?
Don't.

[DVS27t]

How so? Geth Primes are perfect shots at range guaranteed... Rocket troopers can curve a rocket up your arse from a mile away!

[Yoshiyuki Ly]

I'm sick of saying this. Sniper Rifles have a steeper learning curve and are more punishing to misuse. It doesn't matter which map you're on, which character you are using. If you like a particular playstyle, you will find a way to make it work no matter the situation.

[Achertontem]

I think you have some point here.
I do sometimes hope for more sniperfriendly maps.
But on the other hand, all those short-range maps forced me to become a better sniper.
I never pick a map to play since i only do random pugs, i just adjust my combat style.

Off topic: Very nicely written!

[Nanostronghold]

Counterpoint: Pretty much every DLC map released has been pretty big with longer sight lines which favor snipers.

Also, if you're a good sniper you know to carry a short range sidearm. If you're trying to make this point based on the fact that you struggle when running only 1 gun then you are hindering yourself at least as much as the game is. Tactical Cloak's cool down is heavily influenced by the time you spend cloaked. As most snipers cloak and fire straight away weight isn't as big a factor as you might think it is.

Modifié par Nanostronghold, 10 octobre 2012 - 05:05 .

[Fox-snipe]

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

I'm sick of saying this. Sniper Rifles have a steeper learning curve and are more punishing to misuse. It doesn't matter which map you're on, which character you are using. If you like a particular playstyle, you will find a way to make it work no matter the situation.

That may be, but it's a discusion for another day.

Good points on the maps, though I can't say I ever have a lot of trouble on any with my Widow (Dagger Hazard notwithstanding, still getting a feel for it).  Still doesn't change the fact that sniper rifles are almost universally outclassed by shotguns when it comes to overall utility.

[sdsdv10]

DVS27t wrote...

How so? Geth Primes are perfect shots at range guaranteed... Rocket troopers can curve a rocket up your arse from a mile away!

This...

[VaultingFrog]

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

I'm sick of saying this. Sniper Rifles have a steeper learning curve and are more punishing to misuse. It doesn't matter which map you're on, which character you are using. If you like a particular playstyle, you will find a way to make it work no matter the situation.

I rock the sniper all the time, even been kicked for it (whats wrong with my salarian infil with a widow?) but I have to say it is one of the most punished weapons out there. The Indra made up for it a bit with its rapid fire but even so some times it feels like I am shooting spit balls instead of 20mm shells like a widow should.

If feels like there is no love for the sniper most of the time, granted because most rush off and try to be rambo (so many rez's its not even funny). Give us back the OHK with heavy snipers on the trash (not higher level mooks like engineers, marauders, captains, hunters/pyros) without mods and headshots and not specing into it. Makes up for RoF and keeps it even with the "tougher" guys.

[ChStapeler]

Bah. Put a Widow on your Volus Adept and never look back.

[Xerorei]

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

I'm sick of saying this. Sniper Rifles have a steeper learning curve and are more punishing to misuse. It doesn't matter which map you're on, which character you are using. If you like a particular playstyle, you will find a way to make it work no matter the situation.

I've been a sniper since the demo, guess what, you're only a quarter right.

As of Retaliation I've noticed enemies spawn right behind me whenever they want even if the full team is at that point, I've had things NOT appear on hunter vision even when in the open, and I have the rank 6 vision/speed evolution.
I've had things that should be affected by a headshot (Widow X, Extended Barrel + extra thermal clips, AP ammo IV) take a headshot and keep coming and I'm talking about Rocket Troopers, I shot a geth pyro tank last night, no flame, not at all, took THREE widow shots dead on to make him start leaking flaming gel.


Add in Cerberus Dragoons, Geth Bombers, and every collector but the bubble-backs and you end up with a close to mid range skirmish game now, period.

I do better with the Indra II and just automatic firing without scope at mid-range on my sniper than I do with a widow, something is WRONG there.

Things are moving faster now, leading is possible by the time you zoom in to fire, the enemy has moved out of vision point.

I can still do it, it's challenging, it's fun, but on the other side of the coin enemies get in your face way too quickly now if you're  a sniper.

Modifié par Xerorei, 10 octobre 2012 - 05:09 .

[fishcurry]

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

I'm sick of saying this. Sniper Rifles have a steeper learning curve and are more punishing to misuse. It doesn't matter which map you're on, which character you are using. If you like a particular playstyle, you will find a way to make it work no matter the situation.

he's not just talking about sniper rifles buddy, he's talking about all ranged combat in general. As in, there's more than a few meters of distance between you and the other guy.

And I agree, just about every single unit I can think of has some way to flush you out of cover, and all the maps are built with short range combat in mind.

As such, assuming equal skill levels, the shotgun player will always outdo the sniper

[Sihmm]

Sniper rifles are harder than ever to use thanks to new, exciting sources of screen shake and ultra aggressive enemies with erratic movement. They were already a very unattractive choice and I honestly don't understand why the game punishes them so much.

The new DLC has a big focus on pushing players out of hard cover and preventing camping (so transparently so that they even removed one of the best features of the Glacier map because a few players were using it to camp in, sigh), which makes the game seem a little contradictory. But it also elevates even further the use of powerful, multishot, close- to mid-range weapons that hit hard enough to not have to stay out of "soft" cover for long but have enough shots in the clip that misses due to screen shake (sigh) and enemy interference aren't fatal.

On the plus side, at launch we couldn't really point to any assault rifle (well, after the falcon nerf) and say "this is good". Now they've got some of the best weapons in the game.

[Dilandau3000]

• White is an excellent sniper map from the top or the back, although with the changes you do need to watch your six more.
• Ghost is an excellent sniper map from either left or right side.
• Dagger is an excellent sniper map (though less so against reapers, as banshees tend to force you away from array control and sniping from anywhere else is hard).
• Reactor is a bad sniper map. Too much heavy cover, and most places that give a good line of sight have a spawn point behind you. Still doable as a mobile sniper though.
• Glacier is an okay sniper map. Stay near the spawn point and watch the enemy spawn across the landing area, or the other side on inside. Can be annoying if your team mates move to block those spawns, though.
• Giant is an excellent sniper map, from either the center area (somewhat dangerous), the top of the ramp, or behind the thin cover in the back corner.
• Hydra is one of my favourite sniper maps. Stand in the corner near the spawn point, and you barely ever need to move.
• Condor is an okay sniper map. Don't be fooled into sniping from the center balcony, you'll just get flanked, but the top of the hill is okay.
• Goddess is an okay sniper map, but you need to be a mobile sniper; you can snipe, just don't do it from the same place for too long (and definitely don't do it from the raised platform).
• Jade is an excellent sniper map. Either stand near the LZ and snipe enemies in the opposite corner, or stand near the hallway next to the LZ and snip enemies coming up the stairs. Banshees can force you away from there as on Dagger, but unlike Dagger, you can snipe from nearly anywhere on this map.
• Rio is an excellent sniper map. You can snipe either side from the center; just make sure someone is also watching the other side.
• Vancouver is an okay sniper map. The top of the ramp at the back is less good than it initially looks, but going from corner to corner sniping as you go works well.
• London is a bad sniper map. The balcony area is way too dangerous and offers no good "pop-out" cover, and on the ground there's too much heavy cover spread around.

I really don't see the problem. Also, despite your claim of sniper rifles being lackluster, the Black Widow is probably my favourite gun in the game by far. Multiple shots to get around shield gate, built-in piercing so guardians are a joke even without a precise mailslot shot, good ammo capacity (I only ever run out on hacks) and very, very powerful.

[Adragalus]

DVS27t wrote...

How so? Geth Primes are perfect shots at range guaranteed... Rocket troopers can curve a rocket up your arse from a mile away!

Around a corner from their arse before they even spawn.

Balance! 

[78stonewobble]

You have some good points in there. Especially regarding the maps.



EDIT: Though you can snipe on most of the maps it is rather dependent on the teams.

PS: It's been quite a while since I've seen a close range class stay back and cover a sniper. Outside of farming and then it was probably more out of selfish reasons.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 10 octobre 2012 - 05:23 .

[fishcurry]

Dilandau3000 wrote...
I really don't see the problem. Also, despite your claim of sniper rifles being lackluster, the Black Widow is probably my favourite gun in the game by far. Multiple shots to get around shield gate, built-in piercing so guardians are a joke even without a precise mailslot shot, good ammo capacity (I only ever run out on hacks) and very, very powerful.

And how about every other sniper rifle in the game that isn't an ultra-rare?

uncommon snipers are a joke.

rare snipers get nerfed on a regular basis

of the ultra-rare snipers, only the black widow and javelin are actually any good.

[GGW KillerTiger]

BioWare hates ranged combat because then we aren't close enough for the enemies to sync kill. They want to force us to cqc and melee enemies when they'll just sync kill/stun lock us. It's BioWare's way of saying we want to make the game irritating and not fun at all. It's also working considering most average players can't even go past silver anymore.

[Adragalus]

Sihmm wrote...
On the plus side, at launch we couldn't really point to any assault rifle (well, after the falcon nerf) and say "this is good". Now they've got some of the best weapons in the game.

What about the Sabre?

[mrcanada]

Mandalore313 wrote...

Oh trust me, they hate melee combat as well.
Have you tried the turian havoc in a melee spec?
Don't.

[mrcanada]

Sniper rifles are really map dependent.

[Dilandau3000]

bakamatsu222 wrote...

And how about every other sniper rifle in the game that isn't an ultra-rare?

Widow is usable, but pretty much requires a shield stripping power. This is true for all single-shot rifles in this game, and that's where I'll agree there's a problem. Valiant is also good but as it's promotional it's even harder to get.

uncommon snipers are a joke.

I really like the Viper actually. I used it a lot before I got the Black Widow (and that was before it got buffed).

rare snipers get nerfed on a regular basis

You mean the krysae gets nerfed, which isn't a proper sniper rifle anyway.

of the ultra-rare snipers, only the black widow and javelin are actually any good.

I like the Indra too. Somewhat unusual and does require a slightly different playstyle, but it does pretty decent damage (not great, admittedly) and it way more forgiving if your aim isn't too great. It's rapid fire rate also means that shield gate isn't an issue.

[Sihmm]

Adragalus wrote...

Sihmm wrote...
On the plus side, at launch we couldn't really point to any assault rifle (well, after the falcon nerf) and say "this is good". Now they've got some of the best weapons in the game.

What about the Sabre?

The Sabre has been heavily buffed since release, when not only was it incredibly unusual for anyone to have at a high level (being as it is UR) but it did much lower damage than it does now.

Modifié par Sihmm, 10 octobre 2012 - 05:27 .

[LeeVEGETA]

You do realise that you can't compare a shotgun to a sniper rifle?
A shotgun, anyone can use, it has spread and not only that but shotguns deal more damage as they should due to the style of ammo they use, where as a sniper rifle needs practice to use, especially the one shot rifles where a missed shot is very costly.