243 réponses à ce sujet

[NuclearTech76]

I think they need to buff the SR damage on TC but no they don't hate snipers. There are some really good SRs. Shotguns are more forgiving as far as accuracy but a good sniper who can headshot will do fine. The biggest problem is people don't know how to play the game. If you want to snipe fine but you're gonna have to reposition at times and be able to deal with in your face enemies.

[Thalamask]

DVS27t wrote...

How so? Geth Primes are perfect shots at range guaranteed... Rocket troopers can curve a rocket up your arse from a mile away!

And? Short-range fighters (if they're doing their jobs) will keep corner hopping these dudes. Stepping out just long enough to BLAM! them and getting back into cover to reload. The people that suffer from these guys most are the ones that should have the least trouble with them.

Short-range fighters are supposed to be afraid of long-ranged fighters because they can be shot at while being unable to shoot back. But there's so much cover on the maps, that short-ranged guys can get around easily enough without exposing themselves too much. On top of that, since the enemy is universally aggressive, all you have to do to force them into short-range is stand behind a corner and wait.

Long-range fighters are supposed to be afraid of short-range ones (which they are...) and be able to take on long-range ones on equal terms. But sniper rifles don't put out enough DPS to prevent Primes, Hunter-packs or Pyro-packs from getting into close range, and AR's generally require you to be exposed to far more fire even than close-range fighters. If you're rocking a Revenant, between Prime blasts and rocket-spam, if you can duck out of cover long enough to fire 10 rounds, you're doing well... and 10 Revenant rounds are nothing when you're meant to be laying down serious fire.

Mandalore313 wrote...

Oh trust me, they hate melee combat as well.
Have you tried the turian havoc in a melee spec?
Don't.

To me, melee is simply one of the tools in a short-range combat toolset. With the exception of a well-played, no-lag Krogan, pretty much nobody can go full melee all the time. When there's a ton of enemies, you don't charge in. You blow them away one-by-one with your shotty as they round the corner you're camping. If you run out of ammo, you can smash them in the face. And if there's STILL 5 left over, you fall back to the next corner.

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

I'm sick of saying this. Sniper Rifles have a steeper learning curve and are more punishing to misuse. It doesn't matter which map you're on, which character you are using. If you like a particular playstyle, you will find a way to make it work no matter the situation.

Yes, they're harder to use right than most other weapons. But you'd expect that the learning curve would result in some decent power, rather than being required just to make you slightly less useful than everybody else, rather than utterly attrocious. Yes, they CAN be used everywhere. But just because something CAN be used, doesn't necessarily make it effective.

Fact of the matter is that, in general, shotguns are both more powerful and easier to use. Some of them (I'm looking at you, GPS) don't even force you to get in close. Even those that DO are generally better off than sniper rifles, because almost every enemy on the map is trying to chew your nipples off.

Nanostronghold wrote...

Counterpoint: Pretty much every DLC map released has been pretty big with longer sight lines which favor snipers.

Also, if you're a good sniper you know to carry a short range sidearm. If you're trying to make this point based on the fact that you struggle when running only 1 gun then you are hindering yourself at least as much as the game is. Tactical Cloak's cool down is heavily influenced by the time you spend cloaked. As most snipers cloak and fire straight away weight isn't as big a factor as you might think it is.

But what I'm getting at is that the game seems designed to permit you to choose between:
1. Only short-range combat which, from my experience, is perfectly viable even under U/U conditions; and
2. Mixed long- and short-range combat.

Why is there no option that allows you to successfully play long-range only?

And if you play higher difficulties, you're pretty much forced into a maximum-spike-damage playstyle, which renders sniper rifles ('cause they can't compete with shotguns), most AR's and SMG's ('cause they require you to be exposed too much), and most pistols (not enough DPS to use as a primary damage source) utterly irrelevant.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My concern still remains that the whole of multiplayer seems to be designed around invalidating a significant portion of it's own content, and that seems to be a really poor design choice, and it's something I'd like to see BW considering in future.

[heybigmoney]

Not necessarily ranged combat. The majority of weapons are bad period. Most snipers, ARs, melee, and smgs suck. Overall shotguns are just incredibly dominant.

[mpompeo27]

I think it's only the single shot snipers that are completely outclassed. Valiant? Excellent. Indra? Awesome. It's also highly character dependent. Some characters just have no business carrying a sniper, and some have no business carrying a shotgun.

[Riot Inducer]

bakamatsu222 wrote...

And how about every other sniper rifle in the game that isn't an ultra-rare?

uncommon snipers are a joke.

rare snipers get nerfed on a regular basis

of the ultra-rare snipers, only the black widow and javelin are actually any good.

What?

The mantis is the best common weapon and is one of the best sniper rifles for casters

All uncommon snipers have been universally buffed across the board, they're not showstoppers but very few uncommons are.

Of the three (four now with the collector one) rare snipers only the Krysae has been nerfed, and that was more to do with it being an explosive weapon than a sniper rifle (see the falcon nerf). The others have been untouched (though I concede this means they've fallen behind the power creep).

"only the black widow and javelin are any good" I'm sorry but is the Indra not still considred the best SR/AR hybrid? The valiant is also one of the most well respected snipers as well.

[K. S. Black]

It also seems that Bioware is looking down at players being defensive, trying to make everyone more offensive. What's the use of a supply pylon now if you have to be constantly on the move to stay alive?

Let's have a small lesson in combat/war. The group that tries to take a stronghold is the group more likely to lose, or at least lose most of their men/women.

Modifié par K. S. Black, 10 octobre 2012 - 05:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

I remember when an SI with a Widow or Black Widow would get me the top score in 90% of the randoms I played.

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

I just don't like that with higher difficulties you are FORCED to spec into fitness. Otherwise you can't even spend enough time out of cover without being blown to shreds to deal with incomming enemies.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Agreed. I especially liked your sword of damocles reference.

As someone who likes ARs I've been keenly aware of the ridiculous bias against them.

[78stonewobble]

K. S. Black wrote...

It also seems that Bioware is looking down at players being defensive, trying to make everyone more offensive. What's the use of a supply pylon now if you have to be constantly on the move to stay alive?

Agreed.


Personally I like camping. No, not bottom fb white geth or the room in glacier (that I actually never tried at all).

High ground, cover, covered flanks, leading the enemy through a chokepoint and a steadily rising pile of dead bodies below our feet.

It's is not my idea of fun of chasing after speedy or warping classes to try to cover them. Especially when half the the time they charge of in different directions.

Or taking out masses of enemies that I "magically" knew would pop up together and before they get a chance to use their different strengths/weaknesses.

Other people might and are obviously allowed to enjoy the game like that but it's just not for me.

...


Carry on everyone...

[Binary_Helix 1]

heybigmoney wrote...

Not necessarily ranged combat. The majority of weapons are bad period. Most snipers, ARs, melee, and smgs suck. Overall shotguns are just incredibly dominant.

This was a natural consequence of removing weapon restrictions on classes. When they have to be balanced around everyone instead of just one or two classes they're made weak.  I've also argued the mod system is to blame as well. The strengths innate to each weapon must now be added piecemeal. Overall ME3 suffers from bad design much of it well intentioned but bad in practice. Why scrap what worked so well in the first two games for a new weapon system in ME3?

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 10 octobre 2012 - 06:08 .

[Operator m1]

bakamatsu222 wrote...

Dilandau3000 wrote...
I really don't see the problem. Also, despite your claim of sniper rifles being lackluster, the Black Widow is probably my favourite gun in the game by far. Multiple shots to get around shield gate, built-in piercing so guardians are a joke even without a precise mailslot shot, good ammo capacity (I only ever run out on hacks) and very, very powerful.

And how about every other sniper rifle in the game that isn't an ultra-rare?

uncommon snipers are a joke.

rare snipers get nerfed on a regular basis

of the ultra-rare snipers, only the black widow and javelin are actually any good.

Is there some sort of hate for the valiant these days or something?

[mpompeo27]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

heybigmoney wrote...




Not necessarily ranged combat. The majority of weapons are bad period. Most snipers, ARs, melee, and smgs suck. Overall shotguns are just incredibly dominant.

This was a natural consequence of removing weapon restrictions on classes. When they have to be balanced around everyone instead of just one or two classes they're made weak. 

So much this. As much as I love the Saber or Indra on my Geth Engie, I think the game would've been better if the restrictions remained in place or if they had maybe done it on a per character basis (e.g. Salarian Infy can carry sniper and pistol, Quarian can carry sniper and SMG, Turian Ghost gets AR and SMG).

[Ziegrif]

Adragalus wrote...

DVS27t wrote...

How so? Geth Primes are perfect shots at range guaranteed... Rocket troopers can curve a rocket up your arse from a mile away!

Around a corner from their arse before they even spawn.

Balance! 

I have seen this happen. The rocket troopers rocket came from right between his buttocks and then he turned to face me and shot another.
I wish I had a picture because WTF WAS THAT!? Was my reaction.

[essarr71]

Last few patches/updates have benefited sniper players.

Modifié par essarr71, 10 octobre 2012 - 06:25 .

[Striker93175]

DVS27t wrote...

... Rocket troopers can curve a rocket up your arse from a mile away!

Or 2... or 3... if multiple rocket troopers...  they can curve a couple of them (6, 7, 8, 9 lol) 
Yeah, rocket troopers TRUE missile glitchers of Mass Effect for sure!!!

Modifié par Striker93175, 10 octobre 2012 - 06:51 .

[Thalamask]

essarr71 wrote...

Last few patches/updates have benefited sniper players.

The fact that they've slightly buffed a few weapons/powers (or whatever you're referring to) simply doesn't address the basic issue that BW is, through the very design of the game, trying to force everybody into an in-yo'-face, aggressive style of play.

[known_hero]

mpompeo27 wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

heybigmoney wrote...





Not necessarily ranged combat. The majority of weapons are bad period. Most snipers, ARs, melee, and smgs suck. Overall shotguns are just incredibly dominant.

This was a natural consequence of removing weapon restrictions on classes. When they have to be balanced around everyone instead of just one or two classes they're made weak. 

So much this. As much as I love the Saber or Indra on my Geth Engie, I think the game would've been better if the restrictions remained in place or if they had maybe done it on a per character basis (e.g. Salarian Infy can carry sniper and pistol, Quarian can carry sniper and SMG, Turian Ghost gets AR and SMG).

I think the scope mod is to blame. What's the point of using a heavy SR when you can just toss a scope on a pistol?

Modifié par known_hero, 10 octobre 2012 - 06:39 .

[frostycyke]

78stonewobble wrote...

K. S. Black wrote...

It also seems that Bioware is looking down at players being defensive, trying to make everyone more offensive. What's the use of a supply pylon now if you have to be constantly on the move to stay alive?

Agreed.


Personally I like camping. No, not bottom fb white geth or the room in glacier (that I actually never tried at all).

High ground, cover, covered flanks, leading the enemy through a chokepoint and a steadily rising pile of dead bodies below our feet.

It's is not my idea of fun of chasing after speedy or warping classes to try to cover them. Especially when half the the time they charge of in different directions.

Or taking out masses of enemies that I "magically" knew would pop up together and before they get a chance to use their different strengths/weaknesses.

Other people might and are obviously allowed to enjoy the game like that but it's just not for me.

...


Carry on everyone...

Nothing has changed, you cans till hold the line, on practically every map. It'll just take teamwork and communication for all people involved. My and my 3 friends all can hold a quarter or even a half of the map together., each watching the others back, calling out enemy movement and request for reinforcement if their side gets overran. The long range character do their jump and the short range fighters cover the flank or hold a chokepoint. and since we are spread out but within helping distance of each other, we also control the spawn point and force the enemy to not be able to spawn behind us.

nothing has changed. only now, you can no longer have all 4 people sit in one room, you need teamwork and cooperation and mics to really hold the line. For some people who only play with randoms, this is sometimes impossible, I know that. But a good team can handle anything.

for instance. on Glacier we hold the entire upper floor, all enemies spawn below on one of the three maps, one person each holds a doorway with another being a free floating safety. but we also don't just sit there, we know when to fall back and circle around. You can still camp, you just have to do it smarter and with team work.

[Sir_Alan_]

I really enjoy sniping in whatever game i play but i must admit that when it comes to ME3 multiplayer i find it hard to justify using a sniper when i can kill soo much faster with other weapons such as shotties and SMGs both of which, as you say, are in your face weapons.

I don't mind going toe-to-toe with an enemy but for the most part it feels as though (bar Banshees), if i want to post top score or kill enemies really really fast, there are only a handful of classes and weapons that i'll select from, all of which are built for CQC

Pretty much all the maps will have you fighting in close quarters for a large chunk of the match, rarely do i find a situation where i can pick enemies off from across the map for prolongued periods of time (obviously objectives waves are not being included here).

I'm not saying i want to camp for a full game but there are nights where i want to take it easy, maybe not run 20 miles in a game, you know? Maybe it's the lack of really big maps, maybe it's cus the enemies always rush or maybe the snipers just need to be able to one hit kill more stuff...

[Yes i'm aware "ranged combat" does not equal sniper rifles only and yes i can quick scope enemies with the Black Widow but i'm hoping that was not what it was intended for.]

[CitizenThom]

Fox-snipe wrote...

Yoshiyuki Ly wrote...

I'm sick of saying this. Sniper Rifles have a steeper learning curve and are more punishing to misuse. It doesn't matter which map you're on, which character you are using. If you like a particular playstyle, you will find a way to make it work no matter the situation.

That may be, but it's a discusion for another day.

Good points on the maps, though I can't say I ever have a lot of trouble on any with my Widow (Dagger Hazard notwithstanding, still getting a feel for it).  Still doesn't change the fact that sniper rifles are almost universally outclassed by shotguns when it comes to overall utility.

The Kishok has most of the benefits of a shotgun, but is classified and can be used as a Sniper Rifle. It's a toss up between the Kishok and the Valiant when I'm picking a Sniper Rifle... but I'm not a top tier Sniper by any stretch.

[Jos Hendriks]

 On the levels side of things I'm going to disagree with you there. While certain levels are more suited for snipers while others are more suited for closer range combat to varying degrees (no level should be the same), pretty much every level has key locations for a sniper to do his/her thing.
The entire point of there being a bit of both in each level is that we cater to all play styles, and since this is a cooperative multiplayer experience for most, the idea is that those who aren't snipers in your squad cover the routes that would compromise the sniper.

• White has the exterior area.
• Giant has fairly long sightlines from top to lower floor, and from bunker to bunker across the level.
• Glacier has the exterior area and the diagonal through the labs.
• Ghost has several long sightlines in the courtyards.
• Dagger has long sightlines from the central interior room, and in several places on the catwalks outside.
• Reactor has long sightlines from the extraction to the core and side, and several specific spots throughout.
• Hydra was designed from the ground up to be a sniper level and it's almost hard to find spots that you can't snipe from.
• Condor has the high ground to low ground sightlines, and several other sightlines (from pipes to start location)
• Jade has the upper balcony looking down across the level, and the upper labs looking towards the stairs.
• Goddess has the lab corner looking down to central hall, central hall looking out, lab looking to exterior, and a couple smaller spots.
• London has the balcony. Yes it's not safe, but making that a safer spot than it is would've upset the level's balance negatively. Additionally London has plenty of long sightlines on the street level.
• Vancouver is filled with long sightlines from corner to corner of the map.
• Rio can easily be sniped if sticking to either the middle with backup or the open side while hanging back.

A quantitative comparison between short range and long range is not a very interesting approach to seeing how viable long range combat is in a game. As a player who plays almost exclusively as a Salarian Infiltrator with a Valiant X/Widow X (and have done for about a year and a half now) I can safely say that every level we've put out so far has had a sweet spot for snipers.
Making the comparison is rendered more moot by the fact that long range classes are far more restrictive than short range classes are. The range requirement for them automatically makes them less versatile than a short range combatant, regardless of what surrounding area you put them in. While snipers have relatively fewer spots in each level to do their thing, they usually are very effective in those spots.
Lastly, you are both correct and incorrect to say that hazards do not affect each class equally. Yes, the sandstorm will have a potentially bigger impact on snipers (though seeing as I helped set up the storm's density and I'm still fine as a sniper), they get treated equally. The sandstorm isn't more dense or less dense for any different player class. 

Considering I've worked on most of the DLC MP levels, mostly coming into them as a sniper myself first and foremost, I do not understand the argument being delivered as far as the level design is concerned. 

[kipac]

^ Whaat?! Hendriks has valiant X?!!

[Ziegrif]

Jos Hendriks wrote...
Valiant X. 

A well compiled argument.
Just 1 thing. Valiant X.
Calling HAAAAAAX!!!

Sniper rifles can also be used close range with quick scoping and as long as the husk ain't in your face you can kill the thing quickly. 5- 10 meters and a quick aim is all a sniper needs really.
Biggest problem snipers actually have that they, surprise!, Get shot at and die pretty easy when they're stationary. So I think just solving that makes a sniper much more effective.

Ways I've handled the problem of getting shot at.
Krogan Sentinel: He's tough enough to still stand after getting shot.
Drell Vanguard: Spam Pull as a distraction power.
Infiltrator: Cloak obviously.

It's more that the game and level design reward quick movement, quick aim, going into the fray and moving constantly even if it's just from cover to open to take a quick shot and back to cover.

Being stuck in cover against a close range phantom that managed to flank you is kind of an uphill battle.

Well that's my 2 cents into the pile.

[dnapayne]

kipac wrote...

^ Whaat?! Hendriks has valiant X?!!

He is a dev