243 réponses à ce sujet

[-JP-]

The game is a lot easier if you've got UR's at level X.

[Persona RED]

I really doubt they hate it. The multiplayer is definitely focusing on more entrenched squad combat, but I've been doing just fine. Last night I was playing as my Turian Ghost and it was simply amazing. Sure, a lot of your shots aren't going to actually be, "Long Range", but, we aren't talking about a lone sniper here.

Your position is under-siege from incoming forces. It's not the best scenario for snipers. I find what works best is having a few people run interference while picking your shots.


(Also, Glacier does have sniping opportunities. Adjust yourself at the right angle with the Widow and you can snipe through the glass near the landing area.)

[78stonewobble]

frostycyke wrote...

Nothing has changed, you cans till hold the line, on practically every map. It'll just take teamwork and communication for all people involved. My and my 3 friends all can hold a quarter or even a half of the map together., each watching the others back, calling out enemy movement and request for reinforcement if their side gets overran. The long range character do their jump and the short range fighters cover the flank or hold a chokepoint. and since we are spread out but within helping distance of each other, we also control the spawn point and force the enemy to not be able to spawn behind us.

nothing has changed. only now, you can no longer have all 4 people sit in one room, you need teamwork and cooperation and mics to really hold the line. For some people who only play with randoms, this is sometimes impossible, I know that. But a good team can handle anything.

for instance. on Glacier we hold the entire upper floor, all enemies spawn below on one of the three maps, one person each holds a doorway with another being a free floating safety. but we also don't just sit there, we know when to fall back and circle around. You can still camp, you just have to do it smarter and with team work.

I know it's still possible but it's hard to find likeminded people in random play. Maybe like 10-20 percent play like that "naturally".

PS: Obviously I could get an actually working headset so I could befriend people / or talk tactics.
PPS: That last part came one helluva lot easier in l4d due to the text chat. 9/10 would atleast say hello, gg and so on. Followed by ... "hmm lets try xyz..." Due to the little breaks in the saferoom. I know it's not same game type but that part functioned really well there.

[Skyance]

As a player who uses a SI with Widow X pretty frequently, it is possible to snipe from all of the maps. Some maps are easier than others (read: safer) due to their size and the fact that you can quickly escape if a mob converges on you. CQC with SR is just much faster than carefully lining up a shot from 40m+ out.

Cloak, power, and shot are probably all done in less than half a second on Glacier; headshots are secondary to me if I'm desperate just to knockback an enemy. On a bigger map like Hydra, I will actually take my sweet time to line up a headshot.

[YapperFlapper]

Jos, I absolutely agree with you that there are good sniping spots on each map. On the other hand, I can see why people don't like playing as a sniper with the meta-game the way it is. MP is supposed to be a co-op mode, but that's not how it's necessarily played with randoms. With friends who coordinate, I agree with your comment...randoms, not so much.

[Skyance]

YapperFlapper wrote...

Jos, I absolutely agree with you that there are good sniping spots on each map. On the other hand, I can see why people don't like playing as a sniper with the meta-game the way it is. MP is supposed to be a co-op mode, but that's not how it's necessarily played with randoms. With friends who coordinate, I agree with your comment...randoms, not so much.

Find better randoms. 

[78stonewobble]

Just for the sake of clarification.

I agree you can snipe on all maps and no I don't think bioware hates longrange combat.

Maybe I could describe my position better in that I think it is a bit under utilised in random public play.

It's a personal preference thing to be sure but I think the high mobility offers a bit too much advantage versus other playstyles.

[VaultingFrog]

I dont want map changes to be more sniper friendly. I enjoy the tough shots. What I hate is my Widow not being able to kill a basic trooper with a body shot. Its a bloody cannon and it doesnt phase basic troopers. A vanilla Widow should easily toast basic troopers with one shot no matter where it lands. Same thing with all the other high damage snipers such as the BW, Jav, Mantis...ect. The Viper and other rapid fire ones I understand not doing it as they take away power for speed but come on give me my powerhouse back.

[AwesomeBabyLion]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

 On the levels side of things I'm going to disagree with you there. While certain levels are more suited for snipers while others are more suited for closer range combat to varying degrees (no level should be the same), pretty much every level has key locations for a sniper to do his/her thing.
The entire point of there being a bit of both in each level is that we cater to all play styles, and since this is a cooperative multiplayer experience for most, the idea is that those who aren't snipers in your squad cover the routes that would compromise the sniper.

• White has the exterior area.
• Giant has fairly long sightlines from top to lower floor, and from bunker to bunker across the level.
• Glacier has the exterior area and the diagonal through the labs.
• Ghost has several long sightlines in the courtyards.
• Dagger has long sightlines from the central interior room, and in several places on the catwalks outside.
• Reactor has long sightlines from the extraction to the core and side, and several specific spots throughout.
• Hydra was designed from the ground up to be a sniper level and it's almost hard to find spots that you can't snipe from.
• Condor has the high ground to low ground sightlines, and several other sightlines (from pipes to start location)
• Jade has the upper balcony looking down across the level, and the upper labs looking towards the stairs.
• Goddess has the lab corner looking down to central hall, central hall looking out, lab looking to exterior, and a couple smaller spots.
• London has the balcony. Yes it's not safe, but making that a safer spot than it is would've upset the level's balance negatively. Additionally London has plenty of long sightlines on the street level.
• Vancouver is filled with long sightlines from corner to corner of the map.
• Rio can easily be sniped if sticking to either the middle with backup or the open side while hanging back.

A quantitative comparison between short range and long range is not a very interesting approach to seeing how viable long range combat is in a game. As a player who plays almost exclusively as a Salarian Infiltrator with a Valiant X/Widow X (and have done for about a year and a half now) I can safely say that every level we've put out so far has had a sweet spot for snipers.
Making the comparison is rendered more moot by the fact that long range classes are far more restrictive than short range classes are. The range requirement for them automatically makes them less versatile than a short range combatant, regardless of what surrounding area you put them in. While snipers have relatively fewer spots in each level to do their thing, they usually are very effective in those spots.
Lastly, you are both correct and incorrect to say that hazards do not affect each class equally. Yes, the sandstorm will have a potentially bigger impact on snipers (though seeing as I helped set up the storm's density and I'm still fine as a sniper), they get treated equally. The sandstorm isn't more dense or less dense for any different player class. 

Considering I've worked on most of the DLC MP levels, mostly coming into them as a sniper myself first and foremost, I do not understand the argument being delivered as far as the level design is concerned. 

Well said, I agree completely with this. I am loving the levels both as a sniper and a non-sniper. I play every kind of characters from efficient to wacky, from sniper to melee and I always go with unknown map. I never have issues with any characters on any maps. Learn and adapt.

[Yate]

I think the main problem isn't that LR is underpowered, but to make LR work you HAVE to have a SR teammate watching your back. SR on the other hand doesn't need any help, it's a completely self-sufficient way of playing. You can win with an all SR team, but all LR is going to have trouble.

[cuzIMgood]

Sniping is still easy and useful in this game. Being a mobile sniper isn't hard and is just as effective as using a shotgun.

[palker]

Hydra was designed from the ground up to be a sniper level and it's almost hard to find spots that you can't snipe from.

That is why ravagers and Primes are really irritating on Hydra

[Fox-snipe]

Yate wrote...

I think the main problem isn't that LR is underpowered, but to make LR work you HAVE to have a SR teammate watching your back. SR on the other hand doesn't need any help, it's a completely self-sufficient way of playing. You can win with an all SR team, but all LR is going to have trouble.

Meh, you just need to be aware of your surroundings and bring a sidearm(!)  People who don't at least bring a Predator (one of the better pistols actually) or some SMG are just asking for trouble.  No excuse anymore with ULM working.

cuzIMgood wrote...

Sniping is still easy and useful in this game. Being a mobile sniper isn't hard and is just as effective as using a shotgun.

Oh hell no.  Shotguns are always better up-close.  The bigger issue is they are still the better choice even at distance in some cases, which is where a scoped weapon should excel with no contest.

[cuzIMgood]

Fox-snipe wrote...

cuzIMgood wrote...

Sniping is still easy and useful in this game. Being a mobile sniper isn't hard and is just as effective as using a shotgun.

Oh hell no.  Shotguns are always better up-close.  The bigger issue is they are still the better choice even at distance in some cases, which is where a scoped weapon should excel with no contest.

I didn't say that shotguns weren't better up close.  I said being a mobile sniper is still easy and effective.  I do agree that the range/accuracy on some shotties is a bit ridiculous though.

Modifié par cuzIMgood, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:09 .

[Thalamask]

Everybody's getting hung up on the idea that "long-range" = sniper. That's not what I said in my OP, and it's not what I've said elsewhere. Debating the finer points of sniping is doomed to an endless back 'n forth of people making the same points. Some people like it, some don't. Whatever works for you.

While Jos makes some good points on the maps, he's still completely failed to address the original point - Why are so many changes being made with the express purpose of forcing players into aggressive, run 'n gun tactics (where it just happens that shotty's are usually better than ranged weapon... but ignore this bit!)?

If you want to charge around as a Krogan going MRWAHAHAHA! you're catered for. If you want to BLAM! stuff with a shotty that's bigger than you are, you're catered for. If you want to cut an enemy in half with a blistering hail of bullets, the 'cane's got your back.

If you want to stay further back, having a calmer, more relaxed playstyle.... SCREW YOU! POP MORE RITALIN! COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE!!

And that's kinda crap.

Modifié par Thalamask, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:10 .

[White Flag]

Everybody who says sniper rifles are ineffective just can't handle them properly. I consistently top the scoreboard with my Valiant, even on Gold.

[78stonewobble]

titusthelegendaryfox wrote...
Well said, I agree completely with this. I am loving the levels both as a sniper and a non-sniper. I play every kind of characters from efficient to wacky, from sniper to melee and I always go with unknown map. I never have issues with any characters on any maps. Learn and adapt.

One thing though... The tactical cloak gives quite a bit of freedom.

What quite often happens to me in random games (play with friends I know) is that I decide to cover a snipers side/rear and if we get overwhelmed from his side he can cloak and maneuvre around the enemies.

Not aggro whining or anything like that it's just that... I can't maneuvre out of there as easily and follow him. So in a way it went from teamwork to every man for himself in an instant.

Did that make sense (just trying to describe my gaming experiences)?

[Binary_Helix 1]

VaultingFrog wrote...

I dont want map changes to be more sniper friendly. I enjoy the tough shots. What I hate is my Widow not being able to kill a basic trooper with a body shot. Its a bloody cannon and it doesnt phase basic troopers. A vanilla Widow should easily toast basic troopers with one shot no matter where it lands. Same thing with all the other high damage snipers such as the BW, Jav, Mantis...ect. The Viper and other rapid fire ones I understand not doing it as they take away power for speed but come on give me my powerhouse back.

The ME2 Widow was a one shot one kill weapon because it was exclusive to infiltrators and soldiers. Even the uproar over the Krysae was due to how OP infiltrator was with it. It should have been a non-infiltrator sniper rifle instead it was nerfed into uselessness. A lot of ME3's weapon weaknesses are due to it's "anyone can use anything" design flaws. The same weapons that were in ME2 don't even function like they used to come ME3. Too many changes and more people need to be asking why.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:22 .

[Jos Hendriks]

Thalamask wrote...

While Jos makes some good points on the maps, he's still completely failed to address the original point - Why are so many changes being made with the express purpose of forcing players into aggressive, run 'n gun tactics (where it just happens that shotty's are usually better than ranged weapon... but ignore this bit!)?

Sorry, but saying I failed to address something implies I tried addressing it. I merely commented on the levels side of things, because that's my work.

[Thalamask]

PLEASE! Enough with the whole snipers good / snipers bad thing...

I'm trying to get a discussion going on the very basics of playstyle. The vast majority of changes and updates encourage (or even require) extremely aggressive play. A fair few of the changes actively punish defensive gameplay.

It's extremely concerning to me that MP seems to be heading into an "aggressive play is the only play" direction, rather than allowing players to make their own decisions

Jos Hendriks wrote...

Thalamask wrote...

While Jos makes some good points on the maps, he's still completely failed to address the original point - Why are so many changes being made with the express purpose of forcing players into aggressive, run 'n gun tactics (where it just happens that shotty's are usually better than ranged weapon... but ignore this bit!)?

Sorry, but saying I failed to address something implies I tried addressing it. I merely commented on the levels side of things, because that's my work.

1. At the risk of offending... English 101 - "failed to address" = "did not cover". "failed to address" =/= "did not cover satisfactorily".

2. While I appreciate the comments on the maps (which were really good - but then... that IS your job ), it still contributes to essentially derailing the thread.

Sure, there are sniping spots on every map. Sure, sniper rifles can be used more-or-less effectively (just not as effectively as a shotgun... perish the thought) on every map.

But the fact remains that whether you're using a sniper, an AR or the Crusader (which should be reclassified and given a scope!) you're still required to play offensively and mobile rather than defensively. Designing a game's combat system usually comes down to trade-offs. Increased mobility results in lower damage. Low mobility results in higher damage. High accuracy requirements = lotsa damage, low accuracy requirements = lower damage. It isn't particularly realistic, but it's good design and it makes choices meaningful.

Unfortunately, the current system puts most of the benefits on one playstyle, while putting penalties on the other, and that's poor design in my opinion.

And before people go "why play it then?", I play it because I like it (mostly) and it's got a lot of potential. Stuff only improves if you point out flaws, hold reasoned discussions etc.

Modifié par Thalamask, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:27 .

[kyles3]

The levels aren't the problem, the screen-shaking and scopes are. Most sniper rifles zoom in way more than necessary for the size of the maps in this game. Only sniper rifle I ever touch is the Indra because the scope is perfect.

[Nitrocuban]

Thalamask wrote...
If you want to stay further back, having a calmer, more relaxed playstyle.... SCREW YOU! POP MORE RITALIN! COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE!!

I really don´t see why you feel like this. Only because there are some kits that allow a cqc playstyle to a certain degree does not mean BW does not want you to snipe.
You can choose to be the melee monster or you can choose to be the friendly sniper that takes out targets for that crazy Vanguard over there who just overestimated his capabilities.
I for one am thankfull when my Asari gets some help and heads pop left right and left to me while I unload my Hurricane on that Trooper right in front of me.

[Fox-snipe]

Thalamask wrote...

While Jos makes some good points on the maps, he's still completely failed to address the original point - Why are so many changes being made with the express purpose of forcing players into aggressive, run 'n gun tactics (where it just happens that shotty's are usually better than ranged weapon... but ignore this bit!)?

I think that's a contributing factor though.  If shotguns weren't the more-or-less ultimate weapon that they currently are, you wouldn't be able to be as effective being the run-n-gunner.  Close-combat would be a bit more dangerous and people would need to put some distance between them and the enemy.

Whether that then lead to shotguns becoming almost as powerful at range could be debated, but it's an interesting point to consider.  Meanwhile, snipers aren't as great at range as they (c/sh)ould be, and assault rifles also suffer, but not necessarily because they are bad.  It could just be that the enemies are too powerful for the bulk of the rifles to handle.

If shotguns were taken down a couple notches (probably in damage & spread), the enemies could be dropped a bit as well.  Shotguns wouldn't really notice it since they can remain just as devestating  up-close as they were previously.  At the same time, the slightly weaker enemies will mean rifles (assault & snipers) will be able to do more damage at their peak performance distance.

Of course, then you'll have people complaining that a sniper can run-n-gun up-close; the fix to that is to increase hip-fire penalty (seriously, you should not be using them that close, get off it!).  Assault rifles won't really need to be change too much I think since their scopes aren't as powerful, so while they are usable at range, they aren't ideal, even with a tight bullet spread.

Meh. 

[Edit] Enemies could also be slowed down a bit across the board.  Right there you'd have more time to be at-range before you get overwhelmed and forced into close-combat.  Enemy evasion could be toned down as well, which would help powers that have travel-time.

Modifié par Fox-snipe, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:27 .

[Reorte]

Several Collector units have nice big heads for sniper headshots. So far my Javelin is the thing I've had the most success with in dealing out damage to Scions. Always liked sniping in ME, still do, and there are still cases where if I'm playing a short range character everyone else has killed everything before I get in range.

[Javo2357]

I agree with you OP. Hard cover in this game isn't anywhere near as useful as soft cover or using right-hand advantage. I believe that's what you were trying to point out.

YES snipers are/can be effective.
YES levels are designed with snipers in mind.
But does the game reward or promote players that stay in cover? Absolutely not.

It is far easier to complete waves moving around and taking out enemies up close with almost any class. In my experience, using hard cover is only really useful if you want to regen shields. But staying in cover in one spot, even if it isn't for too much time, will just get you swarmed and I also believe it's one of the reasons so many newbies end up wiping, especially now that nearly every enemy attacks aggressively and flushes you out of cover.

Modifié par Javo2357, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:32 .