243 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

Thalamask wrote...

Everybody's getting hung up on the idea that "long-range" = sniper. That's not what I said in my OP, and it's not what I've said elsewhere. Debating the finer points of sniping is doomed to an endless back 'n forth of people making the same points. Some people like it, some don't. Whatever works for you.

While Jos makes some good points on the maps, he's still completely failed to address the original point - Why are so many changes being made with the express purpose of forcing players into aggressive, run 'n gun tactics (where it just happens that shotty's are usually better than ranged weapon... but ignore this bit!)?

If you want to charge around as a Krogan going MRWAHAHAHA! you're catered for. If you want to BLAM! stuff with a shotty that's bigger than you are, you're catered for. If you want to cut an enemy in half with a blistering hail of bullets, the 'cane's got your back.

If you want to stay further back, having a calmer, more relaxed playstyle.... SCREW YOU! POP MORE RITALIN! COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE!!

And that's kinda crap.

You can still sit back and pick things off at range(not neccesarly sniping, but still long range).

It's just that you wont stay safe in one spot for the entire game, and chances are that the enemy is going to have a unit that can still exchange shots with you.

I regularly play with longer ranged weapons like the Javelin, Black Widow, Sabre, Mattock/Harrier, etc. and I don't feel like I'm gimping myself because it wasn't my Piranha, Reegar, Wraith, or Claymore.

[cuzIMgood]

Thalamask wrote...

I'm trying to get a discussion going on the very basics of playstyle. The vast majority of changes and updates encourage (or even require) extremely aggressive play. A fair few of the changes actively punish defensive gameplay.

It's extremely concerning to me that MP seems to be heading into an "aggressive play is the only play" direction, rather than allowing players to make their own decisions

What?  What is aggressive vs defensive gameplay?  The only way I see it is smart vs stupid gameplay.  If the enemy is pushing you hard then you run away.  Sniping, ars, playing at range, holding down an area are all still very viable and useful tactics.  Yes you can't just sit in one place the whole game anymore (your idea of defensive gameplay?) but that just made the game more fun imo.

[Arppis]

Sniper only maps are boring for everyone else. Just like Wasteland and Estate were in MW2.

Maps need to have variety. And there are sniper spots and even maps where they are pretty good to use on.

[Farosyrn]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

 As a player who plays almost exclusively as a Salarian Infiltrator with a Valiant X/Widow X (and have done for about a year and a half now) [....]

And I love you for this.
Just coming out of the sandstorm with my sniper, however, I have to admit I was practically useless. Espesially with the brown-ish colours of the collectors it is incredibly hard to snipe, let alone headshot anything (I was litterally wondering a couple of times if I was shooting the Scion's head or bum. Admittedly, they are ugly, but...). At times I was just shooting at the red squares that appear when you have a target in your sights.

I also think a GI with a Javelin should be able to actually kill mooks in one cycle. As it is, my SI is the only infiltrator I enjoy sniping on, thanks to shield drain. Gave it a try on the GI, but he's getting back his claymore.

[DC69]

I really can't disagree too much with the OP on this. For the most part the snipers that do the most damage are the heaviest so any backup weapon must be light (pistol or SMG with mods) or you suffer a greater cooldown time on your powers as hip firing in a pinch does less damage. Following on from this at higher difficulties anyone using a sniper rifle is dependant on having a power or team mate strip off shields or barriers before their primary weapon is useable. Add to this that on higher difficulties unless you're cloaked you have to deal with homing rockets, stun locks, etc. too and sniping suddenly becomes a less appealing prospect.
It seems that BioWare is following a trend in shooters (first and third person) which is that taking cover, holding a position and making the enemy work to kill you is taking second place to who has the better twitch reactions up close. 

K. S. Black wrote...

It also seems that Bioware is looking down at players being defensive, trying to make everyone more offensive. What's the use of a supply pylon now if you have to be constantly on the move to stay alive?

Let's have a small lesson in combat/war. The group that tries to take a stronghold is the group more likely to lose, or at least lose most of their men/women.

Yup. And in the attrition grind-fest that is Platinum your enemies have a lot more bodies to throw at you than you do at them.

[Cyonan]

Farosyrn wrote...
And I love you for this.
Just coming out of the sandstorm with my sniper, however, I have to admit I was practically useless. Espesially with the brown-ish colours of the collectors it is incredibly hard to snipe, let alone headshot anything (I was litterally wondering a couple of times if I was shooting the Scion's head or bum. Admittedly, they are ugly, but...). At times I was just shooting at the red squares that appear when you have a target in your sights.

I also think a GI with a Javelin should be able to actually kill mooks in one cycle. As it is, my SI is the only infiltrator I enjoy sniping on, thanks to shield drain. Gave it a try on the GI, but he's getting back his claymore.

If you know you're going into the sandstorm, then best to pack an Enhanced Scope unless you're using the Javelin.

If not, then you're pretty much screwed or have to risk most likely wasting a mod slot =P

What difficulty do you play on? My GI + Javelin X can 1 shot trash on gold if I get them in the head. QFI can do it with consumables(haven't tried without, so I don't know if it still will).

[78stonewobble]

The alamo, where the americans rushed out from behind the walls and won.

PS: The mental image I got.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:43 .

[Thalamask]

cuzIMgood wrote...
What?  What is aggressive vs defensive gameplay?  The only way I see it is smart vs stupid gameplay.  If the enemy is pushing you hard then you run away.  Sniping, ars, playing at range, holding down an area are all still very viable and useful tactics.  Yes you can't just sit in one place the whole game anymore (your idea of defensive gameplay?) but that just made the game more fun imo.

Biased, much?

Your entire comment is based on the concept "This is how the game is, therefore this is how we should react." My point was "This is how the game is, and that's poor design, so it should be changed."

I'm well aware that there are good spots on every map with good sight lines. I'm well aware that when the enemy gets close, you need to move.

Why do you think hack objectives are often the hardest? It's because you're stuck in one position while the enemy swarms you and the game is designed around making it impossible to hold your ground (even if you're a class/kit/weapon that's supposed to do exactly that). Yes, you can kite them around and then come back to the circle, but again you're working within the confines of the game rather than recognising that the confines are both limited and biased and working to change them.

Snipers are build around the concept of holding ground (See this street? That's MY street!).
Turian Soldiers are build around the concept of holding ground (Awww... you ate a bullet? WELL I GOT ANOTHER HUNDRED FOR YOU! HAHAHAHA!
Devastators and Demolishers are the epitome of holding ground.

Why even put these concepts in, if all you're looking for is an arena shooter. Give everyone a jetpack and call it Tribes.

Sorry, but you've completely missed the point.

Modifié par Thalamask, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:44 .

[Thalamask]

death_for_sale wrote...

Jos Hendriks wrote...

Thalamask wrote...

While Jos makes some good points on the maps, he's still completely failed to address the original point - Why are so many changes being made with the express purpose of forcing players into aggressive, run 'n gun tactics (where it just happens that shotty's are usually better than ranged weapon... but ignore this bit!)?

Sorry, but saying I failed to address something implies I tried addressing it. I merely commented on the levels side of things, because that's my work.

ouch

Not so much a "BURN!" as an English-fail. But he's probably American, so I guess I can't hold it against him.

[ValorOfArms777]

I don't think the problem is snipers though I do agree the snipers THEMSELVES need a bit of a boost notably single shooters

and the reload cancel needs tuning notably on a gun like the claymore cause it's been showing the world that it's reload animationt he time the ammo clicks in far surpasses the nifty wraith whom I love dearly and want to have 3 rounds like it's brother Evicerator wich I get away with on the Destroyer whom always weidls a wraith V with somethign speedy

antoehr issue atm is the amount dmg the cover busters do and the addition of "Dragoons" whom use a gun at ranged and charge at us so fast and in groups scarily reminiscent of phantoms combined with brutes... they also dodge .... I don't think they need to dodge honestly bad enough they come at you then STOMP youpyros were fine getting that cause what they do is a medium ranged move these guys are jsut too well they are WAY to fast and need to act closer to brutesand their gun habits... umm yeah cut that down massively or cut down their guns dmg allot..... then again the guns the least of my issues I rather they stop being better than brutes...I can't hit them worth much cause of the thin body they dodge and they charge so harshly ... also note Cerbs and sniping them is a task very hard Why the HECK do they twitch when I aim at them when they shouldn't "Notice me even in cloak they do it it's liek they have a 6th sense of "sniper looking at me" reapers don't do it nor do geth IDK about collectors but they have a bigger head anyways and they don't seem to twitch int eh annoying fashion...

[tMc Tallgeese]

Wish I had a Valiant X.....So Hendricks, getting sleepy? I could take the first watch and use that rifle.

[Erixxxx]

It's generally agreed that sniper rifles are substantially less useful than other weapon classes, particularly shotguns.

My Valiant would like to disagree with you. 

[78stonewobble]

I've used the example of actually holding the hackcircle on higher difficulties. Not evading / wearing down but holding it and covering a teammate that has to do the hacking.

[Caldari Ghost]

If you're good wih a claymore you will be even better with a widow. I do it all the time and it is very good for your aim. Reload-cancel and quickscope. Best part: no damage reduction over range with exact same mechanics.
Edit: and armor piercing.

Modifié par Caldari Ghost, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:50 .

[Razerath]

I read your OP and all I can say is you're full of **** and mad. Not to call you an average player but you sound like one. Distance should hardly matter to a decent sniper anyways.

[GGW KillerTiger]

Jos Hendriks wrote...
The entire point of there being a bit of both in each level is that we cater to all play styles, and since this is a cooperative multiplayer experience for most

So what you're saying is all those balance changes and any updates that made the game harder are just lies? Yea right ..... 

[Pyth the Bull]

Try aiming. It makes the Sniper Rifles a lot better.

[cuzIMgood]

Thalamask wrote...

Biased, much?

No...

Thalamask wrote...

Your entire comment is based on the concept "This is how the game is, therefore this is how we should react." My point was "This is how the game is, and that's poor design, so it should be changed."

No that is your opinion, you can still play however you want and most playstyles are just as effective.  The playstyle of "sitting in one spot the whole game" was nerfed I suppose but that doesn't make long range fighting any less effective.

Thalamask wrote...

Why do you think hack objectives are often the hardest? It's because you're stuck in one position while the enemy swarms you and the game is designed around making it impossible to hold your ground (even if you're a class/kit/weapon that's supposed to do exactly that). Yes, you can kite them around and then come back to the circle, but again you're working within the confines of the game rather than recognising that the confines are both limited and biased and working to change them.

I don't think hack objectives are the hardest.  Again, you can easily hold down an area you just can't stay there all game.  It forces smarter gameplay but doesn't make you play one certain way.

Thalamask wrote...

Snipers are build around the concept of holding ground (See this street? That's MY street!).
Turian Soldiers are build around the concept of holding ground (Awww... you ate a bullet?
Devastators and Demolishers are the epitome of holding ground.

This is 100% your opinion.

Modifié par cuzIMgood, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:52 .

[Thalamask]

Erixxxx wrote...

It's generally agreed that sniper rifles are substantially less useful than other weapon classes, particularly shotguns.

My Valiant would like to disagree with you. 

In my experience:
Scimitar's good, Eviscerator isn't bad, Reegar is godly, Graal is fairly good, GPS is awesome (and you can snipe with it!) , Wraith is OK, Claymore is EVIL and Pirahna is who GOD reports to.
Haven't used the Raider much yet, so dunno about that one. Katana's fairly poor and Disciple is a bit meh mostly.
Crusader IS a sniper rifle. They just misclassified it and forgot the scope.

Do the same for snipers... I bet they don't measure up.

[cuzIMgood]

Thalamask wrote...

In my experience:
Scimitar's good, Eviscerator isn't bad, Reegar is godly, Graal is fairly good, GPS is awesome (and you can snipe with it!) , Wraith is OK, Claymore is EVIL and Pirahna is who GOD reports to.
Haven't used the Raider much yet, so dunno about that one. Katana's fairly poor and Disciple is a bit meh mostly.
Crusader IS a sniper rifle. They just misclassified it and forgot the scope.

Do the same for snipers... I bet they don't measure up.

Scimitar is bad, Evisc is bad, Reeger is good but close range, Graal is good, GPS is ok (doesn't have a headshot bunus), Wraith is good, Claymore is great, Pirahna is good and fairly close range, Raider is good and close range.  Only a few of these guns (Graal, Wraith, and Claymore) really move into sniper territory.

The Widow, Black Widow, Javelin, Indra, and Valiant are all very good guns.

[Caldari Ghost]

So again, use the widow like you would use the claymore. It is more useful.

[78stonewobble]

@Thalamask:

Could you mention some other games you would wish me3 mp was more like?
And other games you think it is too much like?


That might give people, atleast me, a better understanding of what you're thinking.

[xGunKungFUx]

Alls i have to say is yes the enemies do like to bum rush you.... bringing their assault rifles to close range...

Its not that Bioware hate long range... or that level design is bad.... they are just trying to deliver a challenging game and are trying to appease the masses who call for a harder game. I mean come on, if they made the enemies sit back and try to out gun you this game wouls be way to easy.

[Thalamask]

cuzIMgood wrote...
No that is your opinion, you can still play however you want and most playstyles are just as effective.  The playstyle of "sitting in one spot the whole game" was nerfed I suppose but that doesn't make long range fighting any less effective

Ummm... no. Either you don't play higher difficulties, or you're lying. Certain playstyles are WAY more effective than others. There's a darned good reason that GI+Pirahna was OP, and is still one of the more powerful styles. Unless I'm playing with total scrubs, I can do WAY better with a CQC shotty than I can with anything else... and I don't even like that playstyle.

cuzIMgood wrote...
I don't think hack objectives are the hardest.  Again, you can easily hold down an area you just can't stay there all game.  It forces smarter gameplay but doesn't make you play one certain way.

Really? REALLY? You can stay in the circle the whole time while playing Gold Reapers or Gold Collectors? You can lay down so much fire that none of the Banshees, Brutes, Scions, Praetorians etc. get close enough to hugz you?

I'd love to know what classes and kits you're playing...

cuzIMgood wrote...

Thalamask wrote...
Snipers are build around the concept of holding ground (See this street? That's MY street!).
Turian Soldiers are build around the concept of holding ground (Awww... you ate a bullet?
Devastators and Demolishers are the epitome of holding ground.

This is 100% your opinion.

Umm... no actually.

Snipers aren't really relevant for this game. The best real-world comparison would be the designated marksman. His job is to shoot everything that's outside of the squad's engagement range. That lasts for about the first 20 seconds of a round, after which the rest of the round is AHHH! RUN AWAY! SHOOT THE THING THAT'S TRYING TO EAT MY FACE!

Turian Soldiers and Devastators are designed around a weight-of-fire concept. It's right there in their skills. They're supposed to put more lead (or quantum particles, or whatever we shoot in ME) downrange than any other class. But they have to spend so much time hiding and running away that they don't get the chance to fire continuously and even when they do, there are basically no spam-weapons (e.g. Revenant, Phaeston) that can compare to shotty's. The Typhoon can ALMOST compare, but you can't really assume maxed out UR's for the purposes of balance discussions.

And the Demolisher's little tower station is DESIGNED around being in one place for reasonable periods of time. Half the time, by the time I'm done setting it up the Banshee's / Phantoms have already caught up with me.

Sorry... you're just wrong.