243 réponses à ce sujet

[ValorOfArms777]

It is hard to aim when dragoons are the tiwchiest pricks ever... notably all cerbs cept maybe engineers and atlas have some sorta twitch ability they "know" when you aim at them when they are in cover etc. it's kind a lame....when you get hte lock then... nope esspecialy cause I was a fan of the Jav

all the single shots sinpers need a buffer up and the claymore needs it's reload animation whent he ammo clicks in increased to make some other shotties more viable in use without drastic changes

[Farosyrn]

Cyonan wrote...

If you know you're going into the sandstorm, then best to pack an Enhanced Scope unless you're using the Javelin.

If not, then you're pretty much screwed or have to risk most likely wasting a mod slot =P

What difficulty do you play on? My GI + Javelin X can 1 shot trash on gold if I get them in the head. QFI can do it with consumables(haven't tried without, so I don't know if it still will).

Gold, and the game threw me right into the middle of the action, so yeah, I was screwed. :>

Sadly, I only have the Javelin IV, and I have to admit I find it hard to reliably pull of headshots with the Javelin. While that's a lack of skill on my end, it's just so much easier to take a SI & Widow X...

Dilandau3000 wrote...

London is a bad sniper map. The balcony area is way too dangerous and
offers no good "pop-out" cover, and on the ground there's too much heavy
cover spread around.

Disagree. You can see the enemies approaching you from every direction except via the stairs next to the starting position. You can also shoot them from further away than on any other map, so I'd say one sniper up there can heavily shift the balance of battle, two snipers can control the map. Most team mates sort of hold the enemy off the stairs anyway. Might actually be my favourite sniping map.

Also, someone said a skilled sniper would always take a sidearm...disagree with that, too. With some practice you can fend off the lone enemy pretty well at close range before you go at back at distance. Otherwise you easily end using nothing but your SMG in this game...

[ErrorTagUnknown]

If you remember, however, there was a time when snipers were overpowered. I will admit though, sniping seems like an underpowered option.... but that could be largely due to xbox. I've had some great games using sniper rifles, and I can only imagine them being better on pc...... ah well. I think what it boils down to is run and gun is "high risk, high reward" and for the strongest players, the risk is heavily mitigated by skill. Its supposed to be a team game. A sniper on, say, dagger in the round room, supported by cqc characters covering the entrances would be powerful indeed

[Homey C-Dawg]

Mandalore313 wrote...

Oh trust me, they hate melee combat as well.
Have you tried the turian havoc in a melee spec?
Don't.

Mine is specced for melee. He's a lot of fun on gold. 

[Nanter]

Thalamask wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Jos Hendriks wrote...

Thalamask wrote...

While Jos makes some good points on the maps, he's still completely failed to address the original point - Why are so many changes being made with the express purpose of forcing players into aggressive, run 'n gun tactics (where it just happens that shotty's are usually better than ranged weapon... but ignore this bit!)?

Sorry, but saying I failed to address something implies I tried addressing it. I merely commented on the levels side of things, because that's my work.

ouch

Not so much a "BURN!" as an English-fail. But he's probably American, so I guess I can't hold it against him.

No means of offense, but your behavior rather seems to be like the intention of this popular image below (Ok, adding an image didn't work. It simply said:" If you can't win an argument, correct their grammar instead"). I think that's why you rather get negative response.
And concerning your issue: I play rather CQC but synergize well with snipers by keeping enemies off their flanks while staggering and delaying enemies entering mid-range combat within their line of sight (ballistic blades ftw ) So in my opinion, your only "disatvantage" is that you need teamwork in order to wreck your enemies as a sniper.

Modifié par Nanter, 10 octobre 2012 - 09:13 .

[scheherazade]

1) Sniper rifles are still amazing - far better than most guns. But te best sniper rifles are not better than the best shotguns. So you end up not using sniper rifles... even though they are good.

2) The varying armor DR between difficulty settings makes it impossible to balance fast firing low damage weapons across difficulty settings..

Fast+weak weapons are more affected by armor DR.

100 dmg 10x a second = 1000 dps.
if you have -50 DR, then it's 50dmg 10x a second = 500 dps, -50%

1000 dmg 1x a second = 1000 dps.
if you have -50 DR, then it's 950dmg 1x a second = 950 dps, -5%

One gun's DPS is hurt more than another.

And that's A-OK - in general.
You make some weapons better against armor.



But the problem is this :

- Balance guns with low DR.
- Increase DR
- Fast guns have their DPS devastated, slow guns are almost unaffected.
- What was balanced at low DR, is no longer balanced at high DR.

Effetively, in order to make ARs useful in gold/platinum, you need to bump their damage so high that they would be useful under high DR conditions. Unfortunarely, they would become ungodly death hoses on bronze with low DR.

Basically, you can not EVER balance the guns so long as armor DR changes between difficulty settings.

You need to fix armor DR to one level, and then alter enemy health to make higher difficulty enemies tougher to kill.

Then you can balance all guns once and for all across all difficulties.

-scheherazade

Thalamask wrote...

As per the title. I've had this game pretty much since launch, and I've been watching the evolution of MP since about April when I decided to give it a go. Over that time, it's become increasingly clear that BW is pushing an in-your-face, run 'n gun combat style by actively penalising range and immobility. That's a pretty odd choice, given that Mass Effect is, ya know, a third-person, cover-based shooter and not an arcade-based UT-type shooter.

In support of my position:
[list=1][*]It's generally agreed that sniper rifles are substantially less useful than other weapon classes, particularly shotguns.[*]Once you start to climb the difficulty ladder, most AR's are drastically underpowered. There are exceptions, but those are SO good at lower difficulties that they're perpetually under the damoclean-sword of the nerf-bat.[*]

Modifié par scheherazade, 10 octobre 2012 - 09:13 .

[Major Durza]

Mandalore313 wrote...

Oh trust me, they hate melee combat as well.
Have you tried the turian havoc in a melee spec?
Don't.

I do, on Gold, and it rocks if you play your cards right.
Anyway, as you were.  Back on topic, passive playstyle is discouraged, GO.

[78stonewobble]

ErrorTagUnknown wrote...

If you remember, however, there was a time when snipers were overpowered. I will admit though, sniping seems like an underpowered option.... but that could be largely due to xbox. I've had some great games using sniper rifles, and I can only imagine them being better on pc...... ah well. I think what it boils down to is run and gun is "high risk, high reward" and for the strongest players, the risk is heavily mitigated by skill. Its supposed to be a team game. A sniper on, say, dagger in the round room, supported by cqc characters covering the entrances would be powerful indeed

Today, for the first time in ages, there was 2 infiltrators in my game. I think both used assault rifles though.

[Thalamask]

cuzIMgood wrote...

Scimitar is bad, Evisc is bad, Reeger is good but close range, Graal is good, GPS is ok (doesn't have a headshot bunus), Wraith is good, Claymore is great, Pirahna is good and fairly close range, Raider is good and close range.  Only a few of these guns (Graal, Wraith, and Claymore) really move into sniper territory.

The Widow, Black Widow, Javelin, Indra, and Valiant are all very good guns.

So... to analyse your post:
Reegar - Rare
Graal - Rare
GPS - Rare
Wraith - UR
Claymore - Rare
Pirahna - Rare
Raider - Rare

Widow - Rare
BW - UR
Javelin - UR
Indra - UR
Valiant - Promo

Shotguns - 7 total, 1 UR
Snipers - 5 total, 3 UR + 1 Promo

And you wonder why I have a problem with this?!

78stonewobble wrote...

@Thalamask: 

Could you mention some other games you would wish me3 mp was more like? 
And other games you think it is too much like?


That might give people, atleast me, a better understanding of what you're thinking.

I suppose that my concern centres on how the game seems, with every patch and update, to become more and more like the things I hate most about CoD and less and less about how it was in the single player campaign.

If I had to select games for it to be more like (assuming it stays with TPS and cover-based), I'd probably think of the ARMA series and Operation Flashpoint series in terms of how combat flows.

For a cover-based TPS, they've spent a ton of time and effort trying to prevent people from using hard cover - you know... the mechanic around which the combat system is based?!

I don't really hate arena shooters (they aren't my thing, but they're OK) and I've played COD, BF, TF2 etc. I suppose I'm just annoyed that, coming here to play a cover-based shooter, I'm actively punished for using cover.

If they really want it to be arena based, FINE. But then make the enemies less accurate and slower firing so that we can DODGE the fire. Remove the cover so that we stop gluing ourselves into it when we're running along.

In a cover based shooter, you use cover. In an arena shooter, you dance.  It's just silly to mix the two the way it's being done.

[Cyonan]

Farosyrn wrote...
Gold, and the game threw me right into the middle of the action, so yeah, I was screwed. :>

Sadly, I only have the Javelin IV, and I have to admit I find it hard to reliably pull of headshots with the Javelin. While that's a lack of skill on my end, it's just so much easier to take a SI & Widow X...

Javelin takes some getting used to, though I use it all the time over my Widow since I play QFI, and even with a Sniper Rifle Amp III I can't 1 shot things like Marauders unless I use Disruptor Ammo(or the new Phasic Rounds).

Though your Javelin IV probably isn't strong enough to pull off 1 shot kills without DA either. Once you get it to Javelin X it is glorious. I can 1 shot Phantoms with it =P

[ValorOfArms777]

Thalamask wrote...

cuzIMgood wrote...
No that is your opinion, you can still play however you want and most playstyles are just as effective.  The playstyle of "sitting in one spot the whole game" was nerfed I suppose but that doesn't make long range fighting any less effective

Ummm... no. Either you don't play higher difficulties, or you're lying. Certain playstyles are WAY more effective than others. There's a darned good reason that GI+Pirahna was OP, and is still one of the more powerful styles. Unless I'm playing with total scrubs, I can do WAY better with a CQC shotty than I can with anything else... and I don't even like that playstyle.

cuzIMgood wrote...
I don't think hack objectives are the hardest.  Again, you can easily hold down an area you just can't stay there all game.  It forces smarter gameplay but doesn't make you play one certain way.

Really? REALLY? You can stay in the circle the whole time while playing Gold Reapers or Gold Collectors? You can lay down so much fire that none of the Banshees, Brutes, Scions, Praetorians etc. get close enough to hugz you?

I'd love to know what classes and kits you're playing...

cuzIMgood wrote...

Thalamask wrote...
Snipers are build around the concept of holding ground (See this street? That's MY street!).
Turian Soldiers are build around the concept of holding ground (Awww... you ate a bullet?
Devastators and Demolishers are the epitome of holding ground.

This is 100% your opinion.

Umm... no actually.

Snipers aren't really relevant for this game. The best real-world comparison would be the designated marksman. His job is to shoot everything that's outside of the squad's engagement range. That lasts for about the first 20 seconds of a round, after which the rest of the round is AHHH! RUN AWAY! SHOOT THE THING THAT'S TRYING TO EAT MY FACE!

Turian Soldiers and Devastators are designed around a weight-of-fire concept. It's right there in their skills. They're supposed to put more lead (or quantum particles, or whatever we shoot in ME) downrange than any other class. But they have to spend so much time hiding and running away that they don't get the chance to fire continuously and even when they do, there are basically no spam-weapons (e.g. Revenant, Phaeston) that can compare to shotty's. The Typhoon can ALMOST compare, but you can't really assume maxed out UR's for the purposes of balance discussions.

And the Demolisher's little tower station is DESIGNED around being in one place for reasonable periods of time. Half the time, by the time I'm done setting it up the Banshee's / Phantoms have already caught up with me.

Sorry... you're just wrong.

I'm going to value your point of view  a tad but again even SHOTGUNS have an issue a duely noted issue here is big clip shotguns are rampant slow while low cliped snipers are not really that fast and must be aimed down sight for full dmg (tad confused why aim deals with dmg and not purely accuracy) notably a player thats been stun locked massivly cannot contue to do anything and can be stuned over and over.. this is very unreasonable in soem standards as you are sentanced to death stoping all auto weapon fire jaming up powers etc. but over that anyways

shotguns ignore shield gate-snipers do not unless they are soemwhat multi fire (Valiant) or BW or the VIper sorta which is a diffrent sorta sniper it's a light sniper ment for mroe power users a notable thing is snipers most all have the penalty from hip fire (I think it's dumb honestly) snipers are mor universally useable than shotties as many of the infiltrators have sniper boosters but this is why they also don't get buffs very often... snipers are useful be more so if they remove the "negative from hip fire" it's really got them down in the dumps at times

some shotties arnt all "that" examples are crusader whom is a sniper rifle shotgun but inable ot get a scope or a good pierce mod unlike grand master Saber (I think shotguns need soem sorta aimer honestly like a shotgun scope that helps cut down the spread a tiny bit or better yet cuts down just the "spread max" but thats off subject

snipers are viable but they are not main combatants they are "supporters" you have to watch them carefully to make sure they don't get jammed in return they phwack big units hard and chip away small units old snipers from teh day were over done due to the longevity cloak AND power now you choose power over cloak duration me I take duration cause personally safty first and doing objectives

I noticed one thing all sniper locals are fairly established and I even found a few that the guy never mentioned I call any zone with a okay view for a sniper a vista point or a spotters zone and at least 2 exist on each map but agian one must be WATCHED when sniping it's not a game of a loner

[ValorOfArms777]

[quote]scheherazade wrote...

1) Sniper rifles are still amazing - far better than most guns. But te best sniper rifles are not better than the best shotguns. So you end up not using sniper rifles... even though they are good.

2) The varying armor DR between difficulty settings makes it impossible to balance fast firing low damage weapons across difficulty settings..

Fast+weak weapons are more affected by armor DR.

100 dmg 10x a second = 1000 dps.
if you have -50 DR, then it's 50dmg 10x a second = 500 dps, -50%

1000 dmg 1x a second = 1000 dps.
if you have -50 DR, then it's 950dmg 1x a second = 950 dps, -5%

One gun's DPS is hurt more than another.

And that's A-OK - in general.
You make some weapons better against armor.



But the problem is this :

- Balance guns with low DR.
- Increase DR
- Fast guns have their DPS devastated, slow guns are almost unaffected.
- What was balanced at low DR, is no longer balanced at high DR.

Effetively, in order to make ARs useful in gold/platinum, you need to bump their damage so high that they would be useful under high DR conditions. Unfortunarely, they would become ungodly death hoses on bronze with low DR.

Basically, you can not EVER balance the guns so long as armor DR changes between difficulty settings.

You need to fix armor DR to one level, and then alter enemy health to make higher difficulty enemies tougher to kill.

Then you can balance all guns once and for all across all difficulties.

-scheherazade
[quote]

small note each gun is ment for a section of difficulty

Commons-bronze
Uncommon-SIlver
Rare-Gold
UR-semi platnium though plat is a unique type that all guns are in section order of quility of rare cause it also scales...hgiehr than gold whcih I think it shoudn't cause it mixes groups

what the notably thing is a common weapon use in gold is useable but not exceptional unless primed in focus

agold gun will divstate bronze but thats to be expeted and the developers knew this the point is though guns trend to follow the ranks of difficulty not all "simulate this" based on some builds what teh notable thing is ppl don't see is that the addition of the Dragoon in example changed play style

next ppla re FORCING collector matches mostly cause well ya know new content have to play it but again... this is fine I expect it we have to wait for them to fix up the stuff they'll adjsut every group and fix it up so it's back to normal cause again this week is the "test week"

[Thalamask]

Nanter wrote...
No means of offense, but your behavior rather seems to be like the intention of this popular image below (Ok, adding an image didn't work. It simply said:" If you can't win an argument, correct their grammar instead"). I think that's why you rather get negative response.

You can only have a debate/argument if the person actually addresses the points under discussion. To simply the comments made, the discussion went like this:

Me: Politics is evil. Also, they're taxing my smokes.
Jos: Why you smoke ciggies... pipes are better.
Me: That's probably true, but you kinda missed the point.
Jos: Why you say I missed the point? I didn't even talk about politics.
Me: Yeah... politics was the point... that's why I said you missed it.

So no. If you actually read the posts, you'd see that he wanted to know why I said he'd "failed", and I pointed out that I only said he hadn't "tried". There was no grammar correction there, simply a clarification on the meaning of my comment.

Nanter wrote...
And concerning your issue: I play rather CQC but synergize well with snipers by keeping enemies off their flanks while staggering and delaying enemies entering mid-range combat within their line of sight (ballistic blades ftw [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]) So in my opinion, your only "disatvantage" is that you need teamwork in order to wreck your enemies as a sniper.

You realise that even this supports my argument? CQC can be played totally solo, or with a team. Ranged combat requires teamwork and somebody to watch your back.

Nice balance, there.

death_for_sale wrote...

Um, he is from the Netherlands and lives in Canada, but nice try.

So I guessed wrong. Big deal. Either way, he's not a native English speaker (and no... Americans don't speak English, they speak American! ).

My original comment to him was simply to clarify that what I'd said was "you have not addressed my issue" rather than "you tried to address my issue and screwed up."

The other comment was a fairly low-brow put-down on the dude that completely missed the point. Naturally it was less than totally respectful.

Modifié par Thalamask, 10 octobre 2012 - 09:35 .

[78stonewobble]

@Thalamask: Ah in that way. I haven't really played any "hard" cover shooters before so I don't know about that.

I actually thought somewhat of counterstrike from the early betas (from when you actually tried to play like a swat team/terrorists) and in regards to objectives. Versus when it turned into some weird team deathmatch.

[ValorOfArms777]

Thalamask wrote...

Nanter wrote...
No means of offense, but your behavior rather seems to be like the intention of this popular image below (Ok, adding an image didn't work. It simply said:" If you can't win an argument, correct their grammar instead"). I think that's why you rather get negative response.

You can only have a debate/argument if the person actually addresses the points under discussion. To simply the comments made, the discussion went like this:

Me: Politics is evil. Also, they're taxing my smokes.
Jos: Why you smoke ciggies... pipes are better.
Me: That's probably true, but you kinda missed the point.
Jos: Why you say I missed the point? I didn't even talk about politics.
Me: Yeah... politics was the point... that's why I said you missed it.

So no. If you actually read the posts, you'd see that he wanted to know why I said he'd "failed", and I pointed out that I only said he hadn't "tried". There was no grammar correction there, simply a clarification on the meaning of my comment.

Nanter wrote...
And concerning your issue: I play rather CQC but synergize well with snipers by keeping enemies off their flanks while staggering and delaying enemies entering mid-range combat within their line of sight (ballistic blades ftw [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]) So in my opinion, your only "disatvantage" is that you need teamwork in order to wreck your enemies as a sniper.

You realise that even this supports my argument? CQC can be played totally solo, or with a team. Ranged combat requires teamwork and somebody to watch your back.

Nice balance, there.

just liek real life dude.. you think a SNIPER is a one man team? usually a sniper if working in a high enemy field with teh task of heavy fire they pick off targets while the main team kilsl the weaker units or the left over or heavily harm the big unit it's a SUPPORT ROLE not a main combat role no direct means are applicable esspecialy if snieprs have tha negative to their hip fire which is stupid as switchign a gun mid CQGC (CLose Quarter Gun Combat) or CQC results in you almost always falling down what is respectfully intresting about this is you seem to not get the real meaning fo beign a sniper... the perks of it is NOT top score...NOT being the killer king but making the foes chiped weakend and sizably outdo the heavy units like a few well palced head shots ot a Prime good shots to a atlas how about a shifty shot to the phantom fighting your friends? ( trend to miss those shots unless it's a boob a lucky head or  a knee shot ) (thansk twitch cerbs) it's the meat shield and special blast units that are supposed to watch you... you are not a real sniper...till you learn that snipers arn't "Badarses" they are support also did you know MR. Rogers was a sniper <that was a joke he wasn't really one)

Modifié par ValorOfArms777, 10 octobre 2012 - 09:46 .

[Maker MEDA]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

Thalamask wrote...

While Jos makes some good points on the maps, he's still completely failed to address the original point - Why are so many changes being made with the express purpose of forcing players into aggressive, run 'n gun tactics (where it just happens that shotty's are usually better than ranged weapon... but ignore this bit!)?

Sorry, but saying I failed to address something implies I tried addressing it. I merely commented on the levels side of things, because that's my work.

Awesome explaination by a dev, BSN is great, you get to pick the brains of the guys who actually made and invented the game.  Now I'm seeing these maps alittle differently, with some key insight.

I don't ususally play snipers the mentality that go on around that escape me.  This is nice, I might pick up that Widow X I had, that I haven't touch like 3 months ago.

[Thalamask]

ValorOfArms777 wrote...
just liek real life dude.. you think a SNIPER is a one man team? usually a sniper if working in a high enemy field with teh task of heavy fire they pick off targets while the main team kilsl the weaker units or the left over or heavily harm the big unit it's a SUPPORT ROLE not a main combat role no direct means are applicable esspecialy if snieprs have tha negative to their hip fire which is stupid as switchign a gun mid CQGC (CLose Quarter Gun Combat) or CQC results in you almost always falling down what is respectfully intresting about this is you seem to not get the real meaning fo beign a sniper... the perks of it is NOT top score...NOT being the killer king but making the foes chiped weakend and sizably outdo the heavy units like a few well palced head shots ot a Prime good shots to a atlas how about a shifty shot to the phantom fighting your friends? ( trend to miss those shots unless it's a boob a lucky head or  a knee shot ) (thansk twitch cerbs) it's the meat shield and special blast units that are supposed to watch you... you are not a real sniper...till you learn that snipers arn't "Badarses" they are support also did you know MR. Rogers was a sniper

Apparently I'm a grammar **** because I clarify MY meanings, so.... yer grammar sucks.
Now that that's out of the way... 

You realise we're playing a GAME, right? This ISN'T real life, so direct comparisons are less than useful.

Unless a game is built around teamwork (and this one really, REALLY isn't), then every character needs to be able to stand on it's own. A real teamwork game is : nobody can rez except the medic, nobody can suppress except the support dude, nobody can repair except the engineer etc. In that sort of game, nobody can stand alone. The engineer may not put out as much raw damage as the assault, but he's the only one that can deal with tanks. Snipers don't get as many kills, but they can take out other snipers and enemy engineers threatening YOUR tanks. THIS is teamwork design.

In ME3, teamwork can make you BETTER, but it is in no way required. Suggesting that certain classes or weapons are only good if other people are there to back you up simply demonstrates that those classes or weapons are not well thought out.

[Seekerr047]

Btw, this game has precisely nothing to do with real life so any comparison to it is utterly meaningless. If this were real life all guns would kill infantry in in one, or possibly two shots. The combat mantra these days is double-tap, not "empty magazine after magazine into the enemy".

Also, my Widow anti-materiel rifle should be able to smoke any infantry in a single shot. And your assault rifles, shotguns, smgs, etc. should be 100% worthless against an Atlas (also known as a tank).

Thus real life comparison = fail.

[scheherazade]

ValorOfArms777 wrote...

scheherazade wrote...

1) Sniper rifles are still amazing - far better than most guns. But te best sniper rifles are not better than the best shotguns. So you end up not using sniper rifles... even though they are good.

2) The varying armor DR between difficulty settings makes it impossible to balance fast firing low damage weapons across difficulty settings..

Fast+weak weapons are more affected by armor DR.

100 dmg 10x a second = 1000 dps.
if you have -50 DR, then it's 50dmg 10x a second = 500 dps, -50%

1000 dmg 1x a second = 1000 dps.
if you have -50 DR, then it's 950dmg 1x a second = 950 dps, -5%

One gun's DPS is hurt more than another.

And that's A-OK - in general.
You make some weapons better against armor.



But the problem is this :

- Balance guns with low DR.
- Increase DR
- Fast guns have their DPS devastated, slow guns are almost unaffected.
- What was balanced at low DR, is no longer balanced at high DR.

Effetively, in order to make ARs useful in gold/platinum, you need to bump their damage so high that they would be useful under high DR conditions. Unfortunarely, they would become ungodly death hoses on bronze with low DR.

Basically, you can not EVER balance the guns so long as armor DR changes between difficulty settings.

You need to fix armor DR to one level, and then alter enemy health to make higher difficulty enemies tougher to kill.

Then you can balance all guns once and for all across all difficulties.

-scheherazade

small note each gun is ment for a section of difficulty

Commons-bronze
Uncommon-SIlver
Rare-Gold
UR-semi platnium though plat is a unique type that all guns are in section order of quility of rare cause it also scales...hgiehr than gold whcih I think it shoudn't cause it mixes groups

what the notably thing is a common weapon use in gold is useable but not exceptional unless primed in focus

agold gun will divstate bronze but thats to be expeted and the developers knew this the point is though guns trend to follow the ranks of difficulty not all "simulate this" based on some builds what teh notable thing is ppl don't see is that the addition of the Dragoon in example changed play style

next ppla re FORCING collector matches mostly cause well ya know new content have to play it but again... this is fine I expect it we have to wait for them to fix up the stuff they'll adjsut every group and fix it up so it's back to normal cause again this week is the "test week"

Making Rare guns do more damage than Common is easy with a fixed DR value...
You just make them do more damage.
Then Rare guns are always better on all skills.

Currently, with variying DR:
A Common/Uncommon AR is crap compared to many Rare guns on Gold : A-OK.
A Common/Uncommon AR is great compared to many Rare guns on Bronze : WTF?
That's simply a silly reversal that comes directly from how DR works.

Having Rare guns be better is fine - it should be that way.
The problem is that changing DR, changes how good or bad Rare guns are compared to Commons.

The actual relative-effectiveness changes as DR changes.
Currently, commons aren't always worse than Rares, when DR is low.

A consistent DR would allow you to balance the damage so that Rare is always better than Common, but Common is still usable on other skills (instead of a complete joke/trash).
You can have the best of both worlds.

-scheherazade

Modifié par scheherazade, 10 octobre 2012 - 10:00 .

[ValorOfArms777]

Thalamask wrote...

ValorOfArms777 wrote...
just liek real life dude.. you think a SNIPER is a one man team? usually a sniper if working in a high enemy field with teh task of heavy fire they pick off targets while the main team kilsl the weaker units or the left over or heavily harm the big unit it's a SUPPORT ROLE not a main combat role no direct means are applicable esspecialy if snieprs have tha negative to their hip fire which is stupid as switchign a gun mid CQGC (CLose Quarter Gun Combat) or CQC results in you almost always falling down what is respectfully intresting about this is you seem to not get the real meaning fo beign a sniper... the perks of it is NOT top score...NOT being the killer king but making the foes chiped weakend and sizably outdo the heavy units like a few well palced head shots ot a Prime good shots to a atlas how about a shifty shot to the phantom fighting your friends? ( trend to miss those shots unless it's a boob a lucky head or  a knee shot ) (thansk twitch cerbs) it's the meat shield and special blast units that are supposed to watch you... you are not a real sniper...till you learn that snipers arn't "Badarses" they are support also did you know MR. Rogers was a sniper

Apparently I'm a grammar **** because I clarify MY meanings, so.... yer grammar sucks.
Now that that's out of the way... 

You realise we're playing a GAME, right? This ISN'T real life, so direct comparisons are less than useful.

Unless a game is built around teamwork (and this one really, REALLY isn't), then every character needs to be able to stand on it's own. A real teamwork game is : nobody can rez except the medic, nobody can suppress except the support dude, nobody can repair except the engineer etc. In that sort of game, nobody can stand alone. The engineer may not put out as much raw damage as the assault, but he's the only one that can deal with tanks. Snipers don't get as many kills, but they can take out other snipers and enemy engineers threatening YOUR tanks. THIS is teamwork design.

In ME3, teamwork can make you BETTER, but it is in no way required. Suggesting that certain classes or weapons are only good if other people are there to back you up simply demonstrates that those classes or weapons are not well thought out.

course you have no clue why my "grammar sucks" btw you missed spelling too

I'm autistic and was never capable of implimenting it though I do "understand" it

on thsi not eyou "THINK it's person to person only" but in all honesty you have NEVER played a good real team have you .. thsi games MOST powerful times is a synergistic characteristic between characters thats produced so much better in a team up mash than a choatic forced team of soloists.... this game is team work and you have not ever picked up on the aspects of it... it's harder to do with PUGs but I have always played the teamster or at least a helpful hand to situations Killign is not my first goal though it is the second... first goal is make sure we are fortified and secured I cosntantly check up my teams status evne lookign at the blue silouette of them I can tell the situation at hand I will try to never solo anything on my own I am not a fool... you on the other hand are argueign with #1 a DEV whom himself prob helped program MANY aspects of the mapping and plays the game normally on a home account with all of us, second you have never apperantly ever periodicly made a class that caters to maybe say the "team work" mechanics like helpful biotics for better boom or combo art with others other than maybe jsut exposions

a good exampleis the sniper and the watch gaurd the watch guard helps protect the snipers sides the sniper help by blastign shots out at targets

most ppl perform a almsot scout roll but more soloist to it... I can "scout" at a sniper too I can even use a snipe rmid ranged combat usign a variable of quick scoping esspecialy with the valiant apperantly some people liek yourself think snipers shoudl soely run alone and be loner types..thats not going to happen get over it if you whine so much get a shotgun sniper... .....oh thats right the closest to that thing is the Talon which out does allot of shtoguns on it's own xD

[ValorOfArms777]

scheherazade wrote...

ValorOfArms777 wrote...

scheherazade wrote...

1) Sniper rifles are still amazing - far better than most guns. But te best sniper rifles are not better than the best shotguns. So you end up not using sniper rifles... even though they are good.

2) The varying armor DR between difficulty settings makes it impossible to balance fast firing low damage weapons across difficulty settings..

Fast+weak weapons are more affected by armor DR.

100 dmg 10x a second = 1000 dps.
if you have -50 DR, then it's 50dmg 10x a second = 500 dps, -50%

1000 dmg 1x a second = 1000 dps.
if you have -50 DR, then it's 950dmg 1x a second = 950 dps, -5%

One gun's DPS is hurt more than another.

And that's A-OK - in general.
You make some weapons better against armor.



But the problem is this :

- Balance guns with low DR.
- Increase DR
- Fast guns have their DPS devastated, slow guns are almost unaffected.
- What was balanced at low DR, is no longer balanced at high DR.

Effetively, in order to make ARs useful in gold/platinum, you need to bump their damage so high that they would be useful under high DR conditions. Unfortunarely, they would become ungodly death hoses on bronze with low DR.

Basically, you can not EVER balance the guns so long as armor DR changes between difficulty settings.

You need to fix armor DR to one level, and then alter enemy health to make higher difficulty enemies tougher to kill.

Then you can balance all guns once and for all across all difficulties.

-scheherazade

small note each gun is ment for a section of difficulty

Commons-bronze
Uncommon-SIlver
Rare-Gold
UR-semi platnium though plat is a unique type that all guns are in section order of quility of rare cause it also scales...hgiehr than gold whcih I think it shoudn't cause it mixes groups

what the notably thing is a common weapon use in gold is useable but not exceptional unless primed in focus

agold gun will divstate bronze but thats to be expeted and the developers knew this the point is though guns trend to follow the ranks of difficulty not all "simulate this" based on some builds what teh notable thing is ppl don't see is that the addition of the Dragoon in example changed play style

next ppla re FORCING collector matches mostly cause well ya know new content have to play it but again... this is fine I expect it we have to wait for them to fix up the stuff they'll adjsut every group and fix it up so it's back to normal cause again this week is the "test week"

Making Rare guns do more damage than Common is easy with a fixed DR value...
You just make them do more damage.
Then Rare guns are always better on all skills.

Currently, with variying DR:
A Common/Uncommon AR is crap compared to many Rare guns on Gold : A-OK.
A Common/Uncommon AR is great compared to many Rare guns on Bronze : WTF?
That's simply a silly reversal that comes directly from how DR works.

Having Rare guns be better is fine - it should be that way.
The problem is that changing DR, changes how good or bad Rare guns are compared to Commons.

The actual relative-effectiveness changes as DR changes.
Currently, commons aren't always worse than Rares, when DR is low.

A consistent DR would allow you to balance the damage so that Rare is always better than Common, but Common is still usable on other skills (instead of a complete joke/trash).
You can have the best of both worlds.

-scheherazade

I think thats almost the intent if you think about it this way too too much of a good thign can be a "bad thing" overdoign something can be a reversal in itself so I expect that good example is this

The example I choose shall be the Typhoon
The gun was more ment for silver and up useage in usefulness

but upon bronze mode it's rev up is it's down fall as yu hav eto expend a few weaker bulelts out but ocne released at a more devistating rev most groupigns are gone and you need to shut off to conserve ..this draw back means that the guns intial balance in itself also prevents a "greater" use in the lower difficulty might as well not bother too much with too many small fries then

this is pretty normal and again adds a diffrent perspective for every guns use more than the bland "same note" for everything plus puting a damnable 50 DR on Bronze would ruin too many guns period while putting the low end I think it's 25 DR on gold is dumb...and will be totaly bleghed out anyways

[CommanderWilliams]

I have to agree, if only for one reason. The Reegar is hands-down the best weapon in the game. Kills infantry just as fast as the harrier, and wrecks boss units. The SMGs in this game are fairly underpowered, the Pistol's are severely underpowered if you look at the stats, Snipers are difficult to use and Shield Gate makes them even harder to use.

[78stonewobble]

Seekerr047 wrote...

Btw, this game has precisely nothing to do with real life so any comparison to it is utterly meaningless. If this were real life all guns would kill infantry in in one, or possibly two shots. The combat mantra these days is double-tap, not "empty magazine after magazine into the enemy".

Also, my Widow anti-materiel rifle should be able to smoke any infantry in a single shot. And your assault rifles, shotguns, smgs, etc. should be 100% worthless against an Atlas (also known as a tank).

Thus real life comparison = fail.

In that case the game needs war unicorns we can ride into battle.  And maybe some guitars...

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 10 octobre 2012 - 10:10 .

[Thalamask]

ValorOfArms777 wrote...
course you have no clue why my "grammar sucks" btw you missed spelling too

I'm autistic and was never capable of implimenting it though I do "understand" it

on thsi not eyou "THINK it's person to person only" but in all honesty you have NEVER played a good real team have you .. thsi games MOST powerful times is a synergistic characteristic between characters thats produced so much better in a team up mash than a choatic forced team of soloists.... this game is team work and you have not ever picked up on the aspects of it... it's harder to do with PUGs but I have always played the teamster or at least a helpful hand to situations Killign is not my first goal though it is the second... first goal is make sure we are fortified and secured I cosntantly check up my teams status evne lookign at the blue silouette of them I can tell the situation at hand I will try to never solo anything on my own I am not a fool... you on the other hand are argueign with #1 a DEV whom himself prob helped program MANY aspects of the mapping and plays the game normally on a home account with all of us, second you have never apperantly ever periodicly made a class that caters to maybe say the "team work" mechanics like helpful biotics for better boom or combo art with others other than maybe jsut exposions

a good exampleis the sniper and the watch gaurd the watch guard helps protect the snipers sides the sniper help by blastign shots out at targets

most ppl perform a almsot scout roll but more soloist to it... I can "scout" at a sniper too I can even use a snipe rmid ranged combat usign a variable of quick scoping esspecialy with the valiant apperantly some people liek yourself think snipers shoudl soely run alone and be loner types..thats not going to happen get over it if you whine so much get a shotgun sniper... .....oh thats right the closest to that thing is the Talon which out does allot of shtoguns on it's own xD

1. As it happens, I'm studying game design. Since I haven't finished, I'm sure I've got a limited view point, but just 'cause I can't do calculus doesn't mean I can't recognise that there's something a little iffy about 1 + 1 = 3.

2. Also, I've played many team games and am a far better team player than I am a soloist. Personally, my preferred role has always been logistics. Need a respawn spot? Got it. Need more ammo? Already at your feet. Finished this fight and need to get to the next one? Dropship is this way. When I'm doing my job right, the other 9 people in my squad can do the fighting of 15+. Needless to say, there's almost nothing like that in this game, so quit it with your "support" stuff. ME3 MP is about killing the enemy as fast as possible (i.e. before they kill you), and if you don't put out a TON of damage, you'd better bring something REALLY good to the table to replace it. And there's nothing for you to bring, so you're screwed.

3. Are you STILL on about comparing things to real life?

4. If anybody in this game was a "real" sniper, they'd do nothing for the first 5 rounds, and only shoot at Banshees or whatever  the rest of the game. "Real" snipers move as little as possible, don't start shooting unless there's a darned good reason, move after every few shots, only shoot at high value targets etc. etc. NObody in this game is a "real" sniper, 'cause unless you're playing a really good milsim, being a "real" sniper isn't much fun.