243 réponses à ce sujet

[78stonewobble]

@Thalamask: Though it is partially another debate there is also the credits to time ratio aspect. If you let the enemy spread out and walk to you, you're wasting time which means less credits in the long run.

[GriM_AoD]

Not noticing any issue myself.
To me, it's about knowing when to fight/flee, and when to move to a better vantage. Using those points, it's entirely possible to have fast flowing, effective mid-long range combat.
Ranged combat isn't just about sitting in your fav spot and expecting to be able to gun everyone down from that spot, while it may be possible, it's not the only option.

Edit- 78stonewobble, 'tis probably worth mentioning that to alot of people credits are secondary to enjoying the game

Modifié par GriM_AoD, 11 octobre 2012 - 12:42 .

[Cheesylover]

It's a shame sniper rifles aren't really in the game anymore.

Yes you can choose to use them, and if you're very good you might even be a decent combatant with them, but why use them at all when other weapons are far more effective?  I can pack a pistol with similar levels of damage and not have to worry about being handicapped as soon as an enemy comes close to me.

The unscoped damage mechanic is silly, and fixing that alone would make them more useful in a short range fight.  One of the problems with the sniper rifles is the zoom on them seems different for each gun, and this means they vary in difficulty depending on the map and distance from the enemy.  The way the game has gone they'd be far more useful if you could take the scope off entirely and use iron sights like all the other guns.

What would be the downside of taking the unscoped damage mechanic away?  1 hit kills?  The claymore can already do that, does more damage than any sniper rifle(apart from maybe the javelin), is very quick to reload and bypasses the shield gate.

Modifié par Cheesylover, 11 octobre 2012 - 12:51 .

[Tankcommander]

I agree with OP. Everything does seem to limit 'sniping' (mid range marksmanship), especially after this new DLC. Since each faction is all about bunker busting, forcing you to move, it makes it harder for average snipers to play. A good sniper will be quick scoping enemies up to point blank range, but the majority of players can't do this and will be quickly discouraged from sniping (besides, is that how we are supposed to be using a SR? I don't think so).

Sniping is is perhaps the most risky/more difficult route to go, but it does reward the highest if you pull it off.

I'm leaning towards the fact it is a problem, since the few people I come across that use SRs do poorly, and most people don't even bother with it.

Modifié par Tankcommander, 11 octobre 2012 - 12:48 .

[Thalamask]

78stonewobble wrote...

@Thalamask: Though it is partially another debate there is also the credits to time ratio aspect. If you let the enemy spread out and walk to you, you're wasting time which means less credits in the long run.

Even if credits are the primary motivation (and they aren't for me), this is only really true on Bronze and, to a lesser degree, Silver. Once you hit Gold, the problem isn't catching the enemy, the problem is killing him before he eats your face.

[78stonewobble]

I stuck with silver personally because I found gold to be too much stress to fun ratio. Credits be damned... (well allmost )

In my experience it does seem that allmost everyone else in a big hurry all the time. 3-4 out of 10 players will rush the spawns. 4 will move around randomly in a deathmatch like fashion and maybe 2 wants to hold a position even for a little while til overwhelmed.

Though obviously I might just be unlucky in who I play with.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 11 octobre 2012 - 12:55 .

[HolyAvenger]

Sniper rifles are awesome, I have nfi what the OP is trying to argue there.

[Thalamask]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Sniper rifles are awesome, I have nfi what the OP is trying to argue there.

No offense... but if you think sniper rifles are the issue, you clearly haven't read the thread so of course you have no idea what we're talking about, and have contributed nothing to the discussion.

Jos understands. He doesn't agree (yet! :innocent:) but he understands. Most other posters understand, with a split between agreement and disagreement.

Try again, hmm?

[Thalamask]

78stonewobble wrote...

I stuck with silver personally because I found gold to be too much stress to fun ratio. Credits be damned... (well allmost )

In my experience it does seem that allmost everyone else in a big hurry all the time. 3-4 out of 10 players will rush the spawns. 4 will move around randomly in a deathmatch like fashion and maybe 2 wants to hold a position even for a little while til overwhelmed.

Though obviously I might just be unlucky in who I play with.

Oh, I totally know what you mean.

I almost think there should be a limit on what you can take into lower difficulty games.

There's nothing quite as frustrating as playing a Bronze match with an L20 Kroguard using Piranha X and a L20 QME bombing spawns with the Arc 'nade. Most of the wave is dead before you even SEE it, let alone manage to shoot anything. The temptation to say "Know what? You guys got this. Have fun. Imma sit here and read my book. You can use me for spawn-control or something." becomes significant.

Except you can't. 'Cause you'll get AFK-dropped. 

:innocent:

Modifié par Thalamask, 11 octobre 2012 - 01:09 .

[Leonia]

I never understoood the "Shotguns are better than Sniper Rifles" thing seeing as I personally use SRs more than any other gun in the game and not only on Infiltrators. You can be mobile and use a long-range weapon, heck bring a back up close-range weapon if you want to cover all your bases. With powers and cover, you can safely get into position without tactical cloak and line up those awesome, awesome headshots. Of course, with everyone preferring the "easier" way of playing with charge and spammable abilities, you have to contend with squad-mates who are more likely to get to your target before you do. And then there's the shockwave screenshake which makes zero sense.

Going to catch up on what has been said in the thread but those are my initial thoughts as a "sniper".

[HolyAvenger]

Air Quotes wrote...

Why sniper rifles are not as effective as shotguns:

1. Scope and tunnel vision makes you lose awareness
2. The damage is not that great
3. Do not ignore shieldgate on their own
4. Getting shot at makes you miss a lot because the scope bounces around
5. Teammates with screen shaking powers will make you miss
6. Teammates will often stagger, knock out or make the enemy do unexpected moves that will cause you to miss
7. Enemies take too long to "retarget" and acknowledge that you are cloaked, so they will shoot you in cloak and that will cause you to miss or die
8. Enemies are psychic and know when they are being targeted by sniper rifles and do all sorts of dumb movement in cover
9. This game has many rapid closing enemies and sniper rifles suck up close
10. Sniper rifles are generally designed to be used from long range on unsuspecting enemy and not in firefights where all enemies know where you are at all time and have pin-point accuracy and insane damage.

Quickscope. Awareness is an issue for all players, but no sniper should be spending most of his or her time looking through the scope. Damage is decent (I tend to a Valiant, which trades off damage for firing rate)...I think SRs and shotguns do comparable damage for the same level/type of weapon ie Claymore v Widow. 

Shieldgate is annoying, but also exists at shorter ranges. Learning to work with your teammates is an integral part of any game. Any sniper standing next to shockwave using teammate and complaining about screenshake is an idiot. Yes, up close and person, its difficult to cause damage (though again, quickscope). But that's the tradeoff you make for having a weapon where you can sit across the map from enemies and pick them off as they spawn. Yes, you'll need to be mobile, and move from camp spot to camp spot to utilise your SR properly, but its hardly undoable. 

The maps aren't super sniper-friendly, its true, but they do have their sniper sweet spots/perches that any accomplised sniper knows and uses to their maximum advantage. I think the long-range combat in ME3 MP is reasonably well-balanced given the limitations of the situations (ME1 was the best for pure sniping...perch that Mako on top of a mountain, and pick of all the guards around a base from hundreds of meters away. I miss that).

[Leonia]

A good sniper is ALWAYS aware of their surroundings, where there team-mates are, where the spawn points are, when to stagger enemies, when to line up a shot or bug out to get to a different angle, basically they try to be one-step ahead of everyone else. It's not everyone's preferred way to play but the rewards can be very high, especially if you're nailing headshots on a consistent basis. We hardly sit in the same spot looking down the scope the whole time, that's just a recipe for disaster.

[INVADERONE]

Play Platinum on Rio, Hydra and Condor. Ranged combat makes a lot of sense there.

I do agree with you though that the style has changed. At launch the game was all about Widow users and in all honesty that got old for me. As great of a Widow user I was I thought it was weak that an SMG build could not outscore a sniper or that a shotgun build either. There had to be some balance. As of now though I personally think there is more balance but it is harder for ranged combat for sure. There is still room for the sniper.

[Tankcommander]

Air Quotes wrote...

The new Dragoons made sniping against Cerberus a pain. You can't even squeeze a couple of shots without having to run to another side of the map to reset, because the Dragoons are always on your ass.

Exactly. And forget about using anything other than a Kishock against them if you are host; Phantoms do their immunity flip the instant you shoot so you can never do damage with any other rifle (three BW shots to the head in quick succession won't kill them if I'm hosting, whereas a headshot and body shot will put them down if I'm on somebody else's game).

[Lucifuture]

BioWAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH.

[King Ptolemy IV]

CQB is pretty much the bread and butter of TPS games, especially with cover based ones, the only way for the AI to beat u is to rush and force u out of cover. I mean think about it, gears is that way, ME is that way, army of 2 is that way, and a lot of other games I could name and far fewer of u would know.

[Leonia]

Maybe if SRs did more damage based on how far away from the target you are.. that could be a fun way to encourage people to use them. If you can one-shot kill something on the other side of the map, you wouldn't have to close the gap and shotgun them to death.

[Thalamask]

King Ptolemy IV wrote...

CQB is pretty much the bread and butter of TPS games, especially with cover based ones, the only way for the AI to beat u is to rush and force u out of cover. I mean think about it, gears is that way, ME is that way, army of 2 is that way, and a lot of other games I could name and far fewer of u would know.

It's just really strange to me to see a game designed around trying to force players NOT to use the single mechanic that actually defines the genre.

It's the same reason I have trouble calling Starcraft 2 a strategy game. It's not. It's a micro-management, memory-based guessing game.

In many ways, Splinter Cell: Conviction is a better cover-based game than ME3. You have to keep moving there too, but using cover is actually helpful, rather than detrimental.

Let's be honest here... glueing yourself into cover (regardless of your playstyle) really is one of the worst things you can do in MP, and that just renders the whole concept of cover-based pointless. They spent a ton of time and effort creating all the get-into-cover, get-out-of-cover, stick-your-head-out-and-shoot etc. animations... and then designed the game to try to make sure that you never use 'em! 

Modifié par Thalamask, 11 octobre 2012 - 01:42 .

[Xetto]

Isnt there a topic like this but with mele aswell?? xD
Maybe they hate both, what you need to succeed is in between combat, eg. a broom or showel. Bioware Aprooves of broom/showel builds with average reach.

[Leonia]

No, they designed the game to make you think hard about whether you should use that bit of cover in front of you or go a little out of your way to use that bit over there and how long you should sit there. They designed the game in such a way that you have to think a bit before you make your move. And if that's not your playstyle, they've given you lots of "less thinking, more run and gun!" things to play with too.

If every game was designed exactly the same, the genre wouldn't ever move forward and we'd be stuck sitting in the same bit of cover for 18 minutes matches doing nothing interesting but looking down a scope and occasionally shooting things.

As a primarily Valiant/Indra user, I find all the levels in MP to be adequate for my needs but I wouldn't try to say there's only one way you can approach the game.

[Tankcommander]

leonia42 wrote...

No, they designed the game to make you think hard about whether you should use that bit of cover in front of you or go a little out of your way to use that bit over there and how long you should sit there. They designed the game in such a way that you have to think a bit before you make your move. And if that's not your playstyle, they've given you lots of "less thinking, more run and gun!" things to play with too.

If every game was designed exactly the same, the genre wouldn't ever move forward and we'd be stuck sitting in the same bit of cover for 18 minutes matches doing nothing interesting but looking down a scope and occasionally shooting things.

As a primarily Valiant/Indra user, I find all the levels in MP to be adequate for my needs but I wouldn't try to say there's only one way you can approach the game.

Again, the new units force you out of cover much more often, and weaker snipers won't be able to line up shots very fast or quickscope, and so will spend much of the time readjusting rather than shooting. Even for those of us who can quickscope while moving, it would be easier just to use a shotgun. So again you are just helping the case against sniper rifles.