35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

Wow, if you break up with Zevran just after you sleep with him but before he hits adore, he is incredibly relieved. He looks like he just dodged a bullet! I suppose that he does develop feelings at that point, not further down the line.

Oh, old save games . . . Gotta love them.

Wow, that's detail.  When I broke up with him his approval was in the "white" and he looked like I'd just kicked him in the gut.  He sounded like it, too.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Wow, if you break up with Zevran just after you sleep with him but before he hits adore, he is incredibly relieved. He looks like he just dodged a bullet! I suppose that he does develop feelings at that point, not further down the line.

Oh, old save games . . . Gotta love them.

Wow, that's detail.  When I broke up with him his approval was in the "white" and he looked like I'd just kicked him in the gut.  He sounded like it, too.

Oh, agreed.  When he's at adore, it's heartbreaking.  It's so much easier to break up with Alistair when he's at adore or love because he looks a bit sad, but not crushed and a little relieved.  Unless, of course, you dump him for Zevran, in which case he takes it much harder.

But Zevran approved +3.  And yes, I am in awe of the writers.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 08:36 .

[Sialater]

Writers, voice actors, animators....



Both of them take it harder if you dump them for the other.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Breaking up with Zevy is hard. You would think he'd shrug it off and say "fair nuff". But yes, that look and his voice...I feel the need to go scald myself with hot water or shove sharp objects into my nose as punishment for being such a cold hearted ****.



I mean, its the same when I have to dump Alistair, but with Alistair, I am expecting it, naturally, so it doesn't catch me off guard like it does with Zev.

[ejoslin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Breaking up with Zevy is hard. You would think he'd shrug it off and say "fair nuff". But yes, that look and his voice...I feel the need to go scald myself with hot water or shove sharp objects into my nose as punishment for being such a cold hearted ****.

I mean, its the same when I have to dump Alistair, but with Alistair, I am expecting it, naturally, so it doesn't catch me off guard like it does with Zev.

It's even more hearbreaking when Zevran breaks it off with you.  That's one I'd probably never be able to play through to the end.

Edit: Well, ever since putting on the mod where you can kiss him anywhere, I'm pretty sure I'll be quitting the game before not romancing him until the end in any play through.  Wow, the look on his face 

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 09:00 .

[Creature 1]

After slaying a dragon, who doesn't want to snog Zevran? Or after slaying an ogre! Or a genlock grunt, for that matter.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Creature 1 wrote...

After slaying a dragon, who doesn't want to snog Zevran? Or after slaying an ogre! Or a genlock grunt, for that matter.

My sentiments exactly! Kissing while covered in broodmother bits just adds to the spice! Besides, Zevran is into some pretty weird things anyway. Gain approval by kissing in the most inopportune, bizarre situations. Yay!

[BlastedLands]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

After slaying a dragon, who doesn't want to snog Zevran? Or after slaying an ogre! Or a genlock grunt, for that matter.

My sentiments exactly! Kissing while covered in broodmother bits just adds to the spice! Besides, Zevran is into some pretty weird things anyway. Gain approval by kissing in the most inopportune, bizarre situations. Yay!

good times....

[ejoslin]

The reason I put the mod on, really, was so I could kiss him before going after the arch demon. It's unfair that Alistair can kiss the PC, but that you can't kiss Zevran before you die.

I find Zevran offering to die for the Gray Warden a LOT more touching than Alistair dying for her.

Edit: Granted, he's getting kissed all the time -- not just at that pesky archdemon part!  

OH!  THE most heartbreaking scene is at your funeral with Anora giving the eulogy.  She is saying all those nice things about how special you are, how you touched many people's lives, and how some even loved her, and the camera zooms to Zevran's face and he looks lost and bereft.  When Alistair romanced the PC and is giving the eulogy, it doesn't even compare.  

That's it, Ali is dying again!

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 09:31 .

[ReubenLiew]

Zevran offers to die for you?

... How?

[ejoslin]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Zevran offers to die for you?
... How?

He doesn't say it in so many words.  When he's thanking you after the Taliesen encounter, if you choose that you're friends, he tells you that someone needs to protect you from your untimely death.  If you tell him he doesn't have to die either, he tells you that the gray warden always dies.  Or her sidekick dies.  Hah, then again, if you tell him you don't need his help it goes into a whole different direction.

[Namirsolo]

Edit: To further expand on this -- a good example is when people speculate why Zevran won't say he loves the PC in those actual words.  I've seen all sorts of reasoning, and while interesting, a lot of times it's not based on what Zevran says about it (I was raised by people who sold the illusion of love, and trained to make my heart cold in favor of the kill. Everything I was taught says how I feel is wrong, but I cannot help it.  Etc. Etc.). Would you really expect someone who was taught all that about love to say the words or be surprised that he doesn't want to hear them?  It is fun to read what people have to say about it, but what I have to say about it I try to keep based on what the characters actually say.  It's surprisingly rich and varied no matter what.

I don't think anyone here has said that they do expect him to say "I love you" to the pc. What I said was that somewhere down the road perhaps he would realize that having an aversion to saying any words is kind of meaningless. I think what you are discussing here is semantics. All he has said in the dialogue that you quoted is that he's been taught to pretend to be in love and that to actually fall in love would be dangerous/stupid/meaningless according to his training. He then expresses that he can't help the way he is feeling. The quote that you gave doesn't directly address the issue of saying the three words, it addresses the fact that he thinks falling in love is a weakness. You have taken the next step to assume that this means that he will always have an aversion to saying the words.

No, what people are speculating that he feels is not EXACTLY what he says in dialogue, but you can extrapolate based on what is given and predict what else might be going on. Of course, there really isn't a correct answer, because anything outside the game just doesn't exist when  you get down to it. 

I said "as others have been saying" in reference to my bit about him and the pc having a connection because other people have already mentioned it and it seems kind of rude to talk about it myself without acknowledging that they first brought it up. I know about the bit of dialogue with Alistair, that's why I'm talking about it, not because other people brought it up. 

Honestly, I haven't seen much in this thread that doesn't jive with the in game dialogue and way that Zevran acts. One person may interpret what happens differently than how another person does, but that doesn't make them wrong. 

As far as Zevran's break up conversation, I enjoyed how he attempts to act so casual about it and kind of fails. I still haven't figured out whether the "Jealous? Me?" is sincere or if he actually is. I do know that I can get through that conversation with only losing 3 approval if I chose the other person, though. I found it much easier to say no to him than I did to Alistair (even though I like Zevran more) because I feel like Zevran will get on with his life after me. I get the feeling that Alistair will be messed up for a long time after us. heh

On the subject of him dying for you- Zevran will also tell you that he'll "willingly storm the gates of the dark city" with you. Since there is no better definition of a suicide mission in Fereldan, I think the meaning of that is pretty clear.

Modifié par Namirsolo, 04 janvier 2010 - 09:40 .

[ejoslin]

Eeep, I didn't mean a personal attack on anyone -- my apologies if you took anything I said as such. Many people disagree with what I say here, it truly was not directed at anyone in particular.

The different interpretations are fantastic because they're deliberate. I said something about giving him the dalish gloves in another thread. If you tell him that they're dalish, like his mother's, he's obviously deeply moved. If you tell him to give them back if he doesn't want them, he seems appreciative. If you tell him, well, that's gratitude for you, he seems appreciative but wary.

The breakup really depends on where it happens. If he is not at adore, he IS relieved. He approves +3 and says he'll treasure the memory all the while looking like he dodged a bullet -- at least is the breakup is immediately after having sex the first time (haven't tried it just as a separate dialog). If he's at adore or love, it's heartbreaking and a huge hit. If he breaks up with you (if you don't return his feelings once he falls in love), you know it's killing him.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 09:45 .

[ReubenLiew]

Telling someone I'd walk to the gates of hell itself and back is not the same as actually OFFERING to die for you, like Alistair did, in an actual situation where he WILL die instead of you. Can hardly be categorized in the same manner.

[ejoslin]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Telling someone I'd walk to the gates of hell itself and back is not the same as actually OFFERING to die for you, like Alistair did, in an actual situation where he WILL die instead of you. Can hardly be categorized in the same manner.

That's not what I was talking about though . . .  see an answer a few up  And tell Alistair he's a coward and understand that he knows he will go down as a legend.  And Alistair, like Cailin, would like to die gloriously.

Edit: Alistair, in just about every female's first play through, dumps her.  It's only once you get an understanding of the game that you can keep the relationship going.  Sure, Alistair will die for her, but he won't live with her in most cases.  Zevran knows before the PC knows that she or Alistair will die, at least according to the legends.  Or the sidekick (which is him).  And yet, if you don't take him to the archdemon, he is heartbroken.

Heh, with a dialog choice being, "You don't have to die either, Zevran" I don't think I'm off base on this.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 09:53 .

[ReubenLiew]

Actually I was responding to Namirsolo about him willing to storm the dark city with you, which is basically the same thing as my quote, sorry bout that mixup.

[Antikristine]

ejoslin wrote...

Wow, if you break up with Zevran just after you sleep with him but before he hits adore, he is incredibly relieved. He looks like he just dodged a bullet! I suppose that he does develop feelings at that point, not further down the line.

Oh, old save games . . . Gotta love them.

Oh, I don't understand how you're able to reload save games to see what happens when you break their hearts. When romancing Alistair, I replayed Landsmeet to see his reaction when you decide to recruit Loghain. That was a heartbreaking experience - to see him almost in tears as his human noble girlfriend choose his arch enemy over him. After that incident, I've never been strong enough to replay the break-up alternatives. Even if I go back the the original save, I feel that the companions still have been going through the break-ups

[Namirsolo]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Telling someone I'd walk to the gates of hell itself and back is not the same as actually OFFERING to die for you, like Alistair did, in an actual situation where he WILL die instead of you. Can hardly be categorized in the same manner.

I don't think so. The Black City (which is what I assume he means) is a very real thing that your PC has seen in the fade. It's not a metaphorical hell, it exists and you've looked at it. He says this line after you have chosen him to go with you to fight the archdemon in the course of a conversation about it. To me, it absolutely means that he knows there is a good chance of one or both of you dying and he is saying "that's nothing." 


And Ejoslin (sorry if I spelled your name wrong, I'm having trouble quoting) I didn't take any offense, I just meant to point out that some things are open to intrepretation. Sorry if I came across like I did.

[Namirsolo]

Hmm, I should try this breaking up stuff more often. I guess the only game where I broke up with Zevran was the first one where I was romancing both him and Alistair. I was a human noble so I thought I was going to be queen in the end (haha, coercion wasn't high enough).



I didn't know about Zevran in that playthrough and was romancing Alistair. I guess I didn't get very high approval with Zev before I had to choose. Ever since I haven't been able to break up with him.



On a side note, I have tried the "I think you should leave" dialogue with a couple of people without going through it- saying nevermind, I take it back. Zevran becomes upset (he was at high approval) and then loses a lot of approval. Leliana, however says "What? what do you mean?" and if you say nevermind she doesn't lose any approval. Did she really not understand? lol

[ReubenLiew]

No, I don't mean that I don't doubt that the city is real, what I'm saying is like how people would say they'd walk through hell for you. It's just words, they say it like they mean it at the time, sure, but unlike Alistair, it means nothing until you actually come to the point of ACTUALLY taking the bullet for you.

Alistair actually does take the bullet for you, while Zevran merely suggests that he loves you enough to do so. Whilst one can argue that Zevran might do it indeed it doesn't change the fact that one is a far more powerful offer than the other, since one actually does involve the party dieing for you.

[ejoslin]

Namirsolo wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Telling someone I'd walk to the gates of hell itself and back is not the same as actually OFFERING to die for you, like Alistair did, in an actual situation where he WILL die instead of you. Can hardly be categorized in the same manner.

I don't think so. The Black City (which is what I assume he means) is a very real thing that your PC has seen in the fade. It's not a metaphorical hell, it exists and you've looked at it. He says this line after you have chosen him to go with you to fight the archdemon in the course of a conversation about it. To me, it absolutely means that he knows there is a good chance of one or both of you dying and he is saying "that's nothing." 


And Ejoslin (sorry if I spelled your name wrong, I'm having trouble quoting) I didn't take any offense, I just meant to point out that some things are open to intrepretation. Sorry if I came across like I did.

Not at all, I was just hoping I didn't come off as abrasive.  The game deliberately has left so much open to interpretation.  The reaction the gloves is one, as I said before.  The connection is another.  You can use the dialog to support her and Zevran just clicking.  You can also use it to support that the PC doesn't trust him at all and is prepared to kill him.  Both are correct.  The only reason I brought that whole thing up to begin with is someone else had said that she couldn't figure out WHY a good character would romance Zevran.  Why she would even start it up.  Well, you have an in-game reason for it -- they met and they clicked straight off.  

[ejoslin]

ReubenLiew wrote...

No, I don't mean that I don't doubt that the city is real, what I'm saying is like how people would say they'd walk through hell for you. It's just words, they say it like they mean it at the time, sure, but unlike Alistair, it means nothing until you actually come to the point of ACTUALLY taking the bullet for you.
Alistair actually does take the bullet for you, while Zevran merely suggests that he loves you enough to do so. Whilst one can argue that Zevran might do it indeed it doesn't change the fact that one is a far more powerful offer than the other, since one actually does involve the party dieing for you.

But again, Alistair's reason is he doesn't want to watch her die.  He wants to be a hero.  He wants to go down as the legend -- he's the next Garahel.  Especially if he's made king, he has a choice between a life he doesn't want, or a death that is glorious.

Edit: As far as would Zevran die for the PC?  He's made it clear he would.  He's also made it clear that he wants to live with her, not die for her.  That's more than Alistair can say in most cases.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 janvier 2010 - 10:04 .

[Namirsolo]

ReubenLiew wrote...

No, I don't mean that I don't doubt that the city is real, what I'm saying is like how people would say they'd walk through hell for you. It's just words, they say it like they mean it at the time, sure, but unlike Alistair, it means nothing until you actually come to the point of ACTUALLY taking the bullet for you.
Alistair actually does take the bullet for you, while Zevran merely suggests that he loves you enough to do so. Whilst one can argue that Zevran might do it indeed it doesn't change the fact that one is a far more powerful offer than the other, since one actually does involve the party dieing for you.

Yes, what I am saying is that facing the archdemon with you is putting his life on the line for you and he understands it and is fine with it. I know that he doesn't actually get the opportunity to die for you (and in this case it is specifically because he is not a grey warden and his sacrifice wouldn't do anything), but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't.

I wasn't really discussing Alistair at all and didn't mean to compare their offers. You asked how he offers to die for you and I misunderstood the question. He does, but the game only makes it hypothetical and he doesn't actually do it. . Game design doesn't give him a chance. I'm kind of glad for this, actually. He died during one of my archdemon kills (actually my entire party did except for me) and I was worried that it would be permanent. lol

[Antikristine]

ReubenLiew wrote...

No, I don't mean that I don't doubt that the city is real, what I'm saying is like how people would say they'd walk through hell for you. It's just words, they say it like they mean it at the time, sure, but unlike Alistair, it means nothing until you actually come to the point of ACTUALLY taking the bullet for you.
Alistair actually does take the bullet for you, while Zevran merely suggests that he loves you enough to do so. Whilst one can argue that Zevran might do it indeed it doesn't change the fact that one is a far more powerful offer than the other, since one actually does involve the party dieing for you.

I agree that there definitely is a difference, but I think it has a special connotations in connection with Alistair and Zevran. In Alistair's case, either you or he has to die, unless you go through with Morrigan's ritual.

In Zevran's case, it's the closest he'll ever come to say "I love you", which is a pretty heavy emotional statement coming from him.

[ReubenLiew]

I don't know, isn't Zevran offering to die for you the same as not wanting to watch you die as well? And though I've never tried this, what happens if you bring ol' Zev along for the final choice? Will he demand Alistair die for you? Will he watch quietly as you fling yourself to the Dragon?
If he loved you so much why doesn't he hold you down while he begs Alistair to take the kill?

-edit- Gah so many other responses before I made mine!
Well basically I just thought that he was actuall willing to DIE for you, which made me go 'whut' since he actually doesn't, but yes it is a powerful gesture for him I suppose, considering his outlook on life.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 04 janvier 2010 - 10:07 .