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[SurrealSadi]

The other interesting thing about Zevran is, he's the only character who will protect the Warden in combat. He will literally run back to attack anything going after the Warden. None of the others do this. It's something that is designed into the character. He'll protect the Warden, to the death if need be, because the Warden gave him a chance and a choice he's NEVER had in his life. For Zevran, the Warden is more important than even his own well-being. That's something I adore about the character.

Edit: Hah! Figures! Hmmm... what to post....

Modifié par SurrealSadi, 01 mai 2010 - 08:06 .

[Sannox]

Me too, Surreal. It was one of the things that made my first character fall for him.

[SurrealSadi]

*noddles* The protective nature, the way he's all about the Warden, not about himself, and the poking at the other party members. It's very endearing, and usually disarms my characters very quickly.

[Sannox]

Elhanan wrote...

Maybe I did not make my original comments clear. His approach of being open and honest IS like many or most of the sharks I have met.

He appears to be all about the defensive jest, then allows himself the opp to deflect more in-depth probing until later, as this will reel in interested prey. I thought that matching him with Oghren later was perfect casting.

But surely all people who are open and honest are not lechers?   You do usually have to demonstrate some interest in a person if you're going to ever get together.   Zevran makes it clear he's available, that's all.  There's no groping or anything. 

Later on, he'll recite poetry to cheer you up because he notices that you're finding things difficult.  If you haven't invited him to the tent, he'll over a massage and sex because you're tired and stressed.   He's very caring, compared to the other characters. 

Yes, he does use defensive jests.  That gives both you and him a let-out clause if he's on the wrong track. It's also funny at times. 

[TheComfyCat]

Elhanan wrote...

Maybe I did not make my original comments clear. His approach of being open and honest IS like many or most of the sharks I have met.

He appears to be all about the defensive jest, then allows himself the opp to deflect more in-depth probing until later, as this will reel in interested prey. I thought that matching him with Oghren later was perfect casting.

...but unlike the "sharks" at the bar, Zevran will cease and desist as soon as you ask him to. It's also easy to never turn his romance on, and that way you'll never have to "hang him" with that extra rope you mentioned.

The fact that he takes the breakups harder than other characters is simply indicative of his character: his relationship with the Warden is important to him, and he's upset if the Warden ends it.

His "defensive jests" are not an attempt to "reel in" the Warden; he really doesn't want to talk about his past. Especially not with someone he doesn't trust.

[Aroihkin]

Elhanan wrote...

Maybe I did not make my original comments clear. His approach of being open and honest IS like many or most of the sharks I have met.

He appears to be all about the defensive jest, then allows himself the opp to deflect more in-depth probing until later, as this will reel in interested prey. I thought that matching him with Oghren later was perfect casting.

Zevran doesn't initially look at sex as a big deal, no, his upbringing didn't allow him to grow up sheltered from such things, and he's accepted it and moved on.

Although he does give it much more weight later on. That's stated. After Taliesen he refuses to sleep with the Warden at all until you call him on his odd behavior, and he basically says that you two are a thing or you have to stop, because he's confused as hell but he knows he wants more with the Warden at that point. Furthermore, he states he's been confused since the first time you hopped into bed with him, which could have been quite early in the game... (or not at all, but I accept that as a writing oops and move on).

These things are stated, flat-out, by the character. It's not something that we think he just "appears" to think. So if your stance is that he never goes beyond "I like you, wanna screw?", the very game states you're wrong. Hell, play the earring conversation a certain way and you get a marriage proposal of sorts out of him in this very same conversation. I say "of a sorts" because this is Zevran.

Also note that the game had his "love" dialogue at the gates turned off by a screwed up flag. This is what was supposed to happen.

[Sannox]

He also has the advantage of being attractive, physically.  Again, I'm talking about what you see when you meet him, rather than what you know later in the romance.   He is attractive, and is used to people wanting to have sex with him.   So he is offerring sex, rather than trying to cajole you into giiving it. 

Modifié par Sannox, 01 mai 2010 - 08:25 .

[Aroihkin]

Sannox wrote...

He also has the advantage of being attractive, physically.  Again, I'm talking about what you see when you meet him, rather than what you know later in the romance.   He is attractive, and is used to people wanting to have sex with him.   So he is offerring sex, rather than trying to cajole you into giiving it. 

Yeah, he's also used to Antiva, which he's apparently never left before, where the Crows are known and are apparently rather lusted after.

Also, pretty sure he knows that's one of his only non-combat skills. He seems very aware that he owes the Warden everything, so he seems quite willing to offer the Warden... everything. (Much to my PCs dismay in IO.)

[Minaleth]

Sannox and Aroihkin - you told it everything I agree.

Besides it's a game and the companions are characters meant to play the role in the story and imo the authors do want them to be likable. Basically I am willing to pay attention to any character the game throws at me because there is probably some story behind, not only the first impression. That's not always a case or RL people, therefor the difference.
Besides I look at Zevran in game and know it's a facade and the character is probably about something else. 
My last point - from the first encounter he is flirting yes, but I like to flirt if I like the person and that is really an irrational thing - just look at them and know yay or nay. Zavran as character gets yay so he can flirt as he want and me likes. Simple as that.

Modifié par Minaleth, 01 mai 2010 - 08:45 .

[Elhanan]

A greater insight into the possible manipulations of this character lies in the possible dialogue between him and Morrigan, when he wins a wager from the other guys. He knows he is able to crack the defenses of others, and in this he will bet on it.



As Flemeth mentions, "One believes what they wish to believe". Some see romance; I see manipulation.

[Mimsypeach]

Hrmm...This is a tricky subject.
I don't doubt that Zev would be great at manipulating. I also won't lie when I say some of his earlier lines (can't exactly quote since I've not played in over a week) sound slightly manipulative. But maybe that's just how I hear them...
I like to think I'm paranoid enough to tell when someone is messing with me. I've had friends and girlfriends who have manipulated me and gave me awful feelings. Zevran didn't give me that impression. Or if he did, I think it was more intentional messing around than hurtful or manipulative. -shrugs-
But to each their own, yes? I do see romance or just a very good friendship. Not a manipulative s.o.b.
Sorry if this was incoherent. It's 2 AM, hehe.

Edit: If I sound in any way attacking. I'm not trying to. I promise. And I apologize.  >_<;

also: congrats on hitting 1000, y'all Watched from afar, but I also celebrated.

Modifié par Mimsypeach, 01 mai 2010 - 08:58 .

[Sannox]

It's interesting what happens with Morrigan. Zevran is the only one who really sees through her, and he seems to be protective of the warden. But the wager is just a bit of fun, I think. He doesn't crave money.

Minaleth, I agree with you about the flirting - some people just feel comfortable to flirt with. I don't see flirting as a bad thing. I don't want to generalise about a whole nation, but when I've visited Italy I've found that some of men tend to flirt Zevran-style (i.e. giving compliments - saying you are beautiful, rather than being offensive) without any apparent intention of taking things further.  It's just fun, and a litle flattering, and feels like an appreciation of life.  And the accents ....   Maybe his accent lets him get away with more in my eyes. But honestly, after trying to cajole Alistair to come to my warden's tent, it was a relief when somebody actually seemed interested.

Modifié par Sannox, 01 mai 2010 - 08:59 .

[Aroihkin]

Elhanan wrote...

A greater insight into the possible manipulations of this character lies in the possible dialogue between him and Morrigan, when he wins a wager from the other guys. He knows he is able to crack the defenses of others, and in this he will bet on it.

As Flemeth mentions, "One believes what they wish to believe". Some see romance; I see manipulation.

Yes, he uses his flirting on the other companions far differently from how he flirts with the Warden. He doesn't harass a female Warden about her magical bosom, either.

As for banter being proof of anything, his conversation with Shale about the Warden is quite telling. I like the "He certainly does!", he sounds so cheerfully proud of it, haha. <3

He also threatens NPCs on the Warden's behalf, all on his own. Murdock for a female Warden...



...and Anora after she betrays you during her rescue.





But if what you want to see is a shallow manipulative shark, more power to you, I guess...? Even though the game states you're off-kilter far more directly than simple party banter lines -- even Wynne realizes Zevran's not just about sex, eventually, and you have the option to tell her that you've always seen more, and she believes you.

Edit: bbcode hates me at this hour. XD

Modifié par Aroihkin, 01 mai 2010 - 09:03 .

[TheComfyCat]

Elhanan wrote...

A greater insight into the possible manipulations of this character lies in the possible dialogue between him and Morrigan, when he wins a wager from the other guys. He knows he is able to crack the defenses of others, and in this he will bet on it.

As Flemeth mentions, "One believes what they wish to believe". Some see romance; I see manipulation.

Alright, clearly you just prefer Alistair, and that's fine. BUT, just because you think Zevran is simply manipulating the Warden doesn't mean he is. If you complete the romance with Zevran, it's clear that the Warden is everything to him, and that he loves them.

His bet about Morrigan seems to be more about the fact that all women will respond to flattery, no matter how cold of a front they put up. It's not cracking her defenses to get her to stutter a bit about some overinflated compliments.

[TheComfyCat]

Aroihkin wrote...

*snip*

But if what you want to see is a shallow manipulative shark, more power to you, I guess...? Even though the game states you're off-kilter far more directly than simple party banter lines -- even Wynne realizes Zevran's not just about sex, eventually, and you have the option to tell her that you've always seen more, and she believes you.

Edit: bbcode hates me at this hour. XD

QFT, particularly the part I bolded. LOL.

[Sannox]

But even if he was just about sex, so what? I do take the point that when you meet him you have no way of knowing how loyal and devoted he will be. But even if you don't see the romance through, I don't see anything wrong with a bit of sexual relief between battles.

I think he's pretty straightforward about the sex. He likes it, he thinks you'll like it (if you flirt back), he's used to people wanting to have sex with him, and used to offering it. He's the only character who does it offer it freely like that, which is in his favour. He will fall in love with you, but you have no obligation to fall in love with him, or offer him anything.

(Even towards the end of the romance, the only thing he ever asks you to do is to accept his gift of his earring).

And anyway, generally (although not always, by any means) that's how relationships develop in real life - starting with sexual attraction and sex, and the love developing out of that. 

Modifié par Sannox, 01 mai 2010 - 09:10 .

[Minaleth]

Manipulation - that would be true if it turned out later as such, but it did not and I believe that Zevran's feelings for Warden are very genuine - most certainly end game and very possibly from the start.



He knows he is charming and uses it for many different reasons - e.g. wager about Morrigan or to save his life. I don't really think this is necessarily bad. He could use it to get into Warden's pants but does he really do that or does he need to do that? Me thinks no.

[Aroihkin]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

*snip*

But if what you want to see is a shallow manipulative shark, more power to you, I guess...? Even though the game states you're off-kilter far more directly than simple party banter lines -- even Wynne realizes Zevran's not just about sex, eventually, and you have the option to tell her that you've always seen more, and she believes you.

Edit: bbcode hates me at this hour. XD

QFT, particularly the part I bolded. LOL.

*grins* I mean, Wynne.

Sannox wrote...

But even if he was just about sex, so what? I do take the point that when you meet him you have no way of knowing how loyal and devoted he will be. But even if you don't see the romance through, I don't see anything wrong with a bit of sexual relief between battles.

I think he's pretty straightforward about the sex. He likes it, he thinks you'll like it (if you flirt back), he's used to people wanting to have sex with him, and used to offering it. He's the only character who does it offer it freely like that, which is in his favour. He will fall in love with you, but you have no obligation to fall in love with him, or offer him anything.

(Even towards the end of the romance, the only thing he ever asks you to do is to accept his gift of his earring).

And anyway, generally (although not always, by any means) that's how relationships develop in real life - starting with sexual attraction and sex, and the love developing out of that.

Oh, definitely. I don't see it as a horrible thing, particularly as he doesn't even come out and proposition you himself until Adore (IIRC?). You're the one who has to make the first move before that, even though he freely calls the Warden beautiful or handsome, which I don't read as particularly skeezy things to say about someone...

Edit: I tipe relly gud.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 01 mai 2010 - 09:13 .

[Sannox]

Yes, and even if you make the first move, you have to be clear about what you want. You can't just invite him to your tent. You have to tell him that you're inviting him for sex, basically.  I had a lot of fun trying some of the options after inviting him, and if you show any doubt, he will refuse to come. He won't take advantage, and will turn you down unless you make it clear you want it. His behaviour is not the behaviour of somebody trying to manipulate you into having sex.

I don't think he has ever had to manipulate anyone into having sex. I get the impression that it was always available for him.

Modifié par Sannox, 01 mai 2010 - 09:23 .

[Aroihkin]

Off-topic, but funny... I was dosing the old-man cat with his meds, and he got so pissed off at me he hissed when I finally got the antibodies into his mouth, and he kept hissing for like two full seconds. XD Thankfully he didn't send the antibody goop flying, so I didn't have to re-dose him.

Grumpy old bastage. And then I gave him some canned food, and we're buddies again. For now. It takes three hands to hold him down, wrapped up to his chin in a blanket. This cat is fifteen years old and skin-and-bones from his mouth infection screwing with his appetite, and he's still that strong.

[Aroihkin]

Sannox wrote...

Yes, and even if you make the first move, you have to be clear about what you want. You can't just invite him to your tent. You have to tell him that you're inviting him for sex, basically.  I had a lot of fun trying some of the options after inviting him, and if you show any doubt, he will refuse to come. He won't take advantage, and will turn you down unless you make it clear you want it. His behaviour is not the behaviour of somebody trying to manipulate you into having sex.

I don't think he has ever had to manipulate anyone into having sex. I get the impression that it was always available for him.

Yeah, I get the feeling that explicitly stated consent is rather important to him in general, all things considered. Even when he propositions the Warden with the massage, if the Warden says yes he takes it a step further and makes damn sure he's been given the go-ahead for more... involved massage. XD

[Minaleth]

Ah, beloved pets. I remember fondly of my dog's epilepsy :|

[Minaleth]

Aroihkin wrote...

Sannox wrote...
Yes, and even if you make the first move, you have to be clear about what you want. You can't just invite him to your tent. You have to tell him that you're inviting him for sex, basically.  I had a lot of fun trying some of the options after inviting him, and if you show any doubt, he will refuse to come. He won't take advantage, and will turn you down unless you make it clear you want it. His behaviour is not the behaviour of somebody trying to manipulate you into having sex.  
I don't think he has ever had to manipulate anyone into having sex. I get the impression that it was always available for him.

Yeah, I get the feeling that explicitly stated consent is rather important to him in general, all things considered. Even when he propositions the Warden with the massage, if the Warden says yes he takes it a step further and makes damn sure he's been given the go-ahead for more... involved massage. XD

It's also at the other levels of relationship - how he asks about how they stand, or what you intent to do with his oath, or if the warden wishes him around after Taliesin ... I kind of like that dialogues. 

[UpiH]

G'morn!

Mommy and Poppa went to disco

[Aroihkin]

UpiH wrote...

G'morn!

Mommy and Poppa went to disco

So that's how mods are made! I knew there wasn't a stork involved!

(I lol'd. The best thing is, going off pure forum thread impressions... I can see it.)