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[Sabriana]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that Zevran blames Taliesin for Rinna. I, myself, am not so sure about Taliesin's role in that, but it is quite conceivable that Zevran remembered that Taliesin played a big role in Rinna's demise. No blaming is necesarry, just a connection, a thought how that worked out back then.

At that point in the relationship, Zevran might be at the same point he was with Rinna, emotion-wise, only afterward do his emotions for the PC escalate far higher than his feelings for Rinna ever were (in my opinion )

Zevran might be ignorant about Taliesin's actual motive (just as we are, I'm only guessing), but he's hardly stupid, or dense not to connect the old with the new, somehow.

Maybe that's why he wants to put a huge distance between himself, Taliesin, and the Warden. However, he was sure that the Warden would be the one walking away this time around.

[ejoslin]

WARNING: DIALOG SPOILER. This is the post-Taliesen conversation if Zevran leaves. I just replayed the scene to get the screen shots (I was missing a couple).

Zevran: Taliesen is dead, I assume. He must be, or you would not have returned. Then it is true... I am free of the Crows.
Zevran: They will assume that I am dead along with Taliesen. So long as I do not make my presence known to them, they will not seek me out.
Warden: You should have stayed and fought.
Zevran: Believe it or not, despite my feelings about the Crows in general I had no arguement with Taliesen in specific.
Zevran: He was a good friend whose only fault lie in his priorities. I had no wish to fight him, and truly I would have preferred he not come after us at all. But what is done is done.
Warden: A good friend, was he?
Zevran: He was. And more. But there is no need to relive the past. That is all behind me, now.

Seriously, the way he answers, "He was. And more." His voice there, it really leaves no room for doubt, in my mind at least, that he and Taliesen were lovers. It's so honest and pained.

An interesting thing is this conversation will happen before he tells the Warden about Rinna (I suppose it may happen after if you break it up with him after he hits adore and take a big approval hit and you're able to restart the romance, but in most cases, that doesn't happen). I think it flows better that way.

This conversation, even though you take a big approval hit (-6), is so honest and painful. It's part of the reason I don't think Zevran loved Rinna. But I also think what happened with Rinna and the Crow's reaction was what made him take a good, long look at himself and lead him to suicide by Warden. I have a lot more to say about this, but I haven't had enough coffee yet. Jenovan, I would be very interested in hearing your reaction to this conversation -- I hope you're able to keep your PC at 69 care.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 février 2010 - 02:41 .

[Sabriana]

Oh those writers, lol.
"A good friend whose only fault were his priorities?" That more or less tells me that he did connect the Rinna-Taliesin thing on one level. Not all the way to thinking consciously about it, nor to even the higher level of blaming Taliesin. It also points out that Taliesin should've stayed where he was in the first place. That's twice now that Taliesin wishes to kill someone Zevran feels something for, and twice that he says "we'll think of something."

Even if the PC doesn't know about Rinna yet, there is no reason to believe that Zevran didn't factor that in. Not in any big way, but it was certainly there. His feelings for Rinna scared him so much that he readily agreed to have her murdered, even spat on her. So they would be feelings that went contrary to what he was brainwashed into believing through brutal methods.

His developing feelings for the PC are also going in a direction that is scary and confusing to him, but they are also deeper. However, Rinna plays a large role in his wish to be free of the Crows. His feelings for her, and the way the Crows think about him, and thought about her. They are both 'nothing.' It's not only one or the other, it's both, actually.

Whether Zevran and Talisien were lovers or not, well, I guess I have to somehow make a disconnect between feelings and sex, especially when emotions are already present. Mind you, it's entirely possible that for Zevran the sex between buddies was entirely recreational, but I'm not so sure about Taliesin.

I find it quite intriguing that Taliesin basically offers Zevran the same way out as he did with Rinna. "We'll make something up, we'll think of something." Well, Zevran knows very well that the made-up story re. Rinna didn't matter at all to his master.

Zevran does indeed look sad in that scene, but he is in no way as crushed as when the PC breaks up with him. She practically tears him apart from the inside out.

When he is at 71+ and the PC picks the "Zevran is with me now" line, his answer to Taliesin's "You have no idea who you are talking about" is "and neither do you." At that point he definitely has made a break between everything Crow and himself. It's all about the PC now, and she is more than the Crows, Taliesien, and Rinna combined at that point.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh those writers, lol.
"A good friend whose only fault were his priorities?" That more or less tells me that he did connect the Rinna-Taliesin thing on one level. Not all the way to thinking consciously about it, nor to even the higher level of blaming Taliesin. It also points out that Taliesin should've stayed where he was in the first place. That's twice now that Taliesin wishes to kill someone Zevran feels something for, and twice that he says "we'll think of something."

Even if the PC doesn't know about Rinna yet, there is no reason to believe that Zevran didn't factor that in. Not in any big way, but it was certainly there. His feelings for Rinna scared him so much that he readily agreed to have her murdered, even spat on her. So they would be feelings that went contrary to what he was brainwashed into believing through brutal methods.

His developing feelings for the PC are also going in a direction that is scary and confusing to him, but they are also deeper. However, Rinna plays a large role in his wish to be free of the Crows. His feelings for her, and the way the Crows think about him, and thought about her. They are both 'nothing.' It's not only one or the other, it's both, actually.

Whether Zevran and Talisien were lovers or not, well, I guess I have to somehow make a disconnect between feelings and sex, especially when emotions are already present. Mind you, it's entirely possible that for Zevran the sex between buddies was entirely recreational, but I'm not so sure about Taliesin.

I find it quite intriguing that Taliesin basically offers Zevran the same way out as he did with Rinna. "We'll make something up, we'll think of something." Well, Zevran knows very well that the made-up story re. Rinna didn't matter at all to his master.

Zevran does indeed look sad in that scene, but he is in no way as crushed as when the PC breaks up with him. She practically tears him apart from the inside out.

When he is at 71+ and the PC picks the "Zevran is with me now" line, his answer to Taliesin's "You have no idea who you are talking about" is "and neither do you." At that point he definitely has made a break between everything Crow and himself. It's all about the PC now, and she is more than the Crows, Taliesien, and Rinna combined at that point.

Oh, there is no doubt that Rinna weighs heavily on him -- that's why I think the whole thing flows better if he hasn't told the Warden about her yet.  Because there is so much going on there that the warden is unaware of.  

And I don't think the sex with Taliesen was meaningless.  Committed? Gah, no!  But not meaningless.  Zevran just sounds too pained when he says that for there not to have been more involved.

At lower than 71+ adore, you don't get the "Zevran belongs with me now," option.  Which makes sense.  Because the relationship is not at that point yet.

Edit: And yes, there is nothing more heartbreaking in the game than a breakup with Zevran when he is in love.  You know I doubt that he actually loved Rinna -- I think the whole incident changed the way he thought about himself, and is obviously what lead him to attempting suicide via Grey Warden. 

I also think the whole thing illustrates just how committed Zevran actually is to the Warden at 71+ adore.  He is forced to face it at that confrontation, but the feelings were there already.  It's not like he suddenly fell in love  -- it's just that he finally is forced to admit it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 février 2010 - 01:54 .

[spottyblanket]

Is it possible to just kiss Zev?

[Sabriana]

Oh yes. At that point he's flipped to 'adore' iirc. There is no question for him anymore that she has become more to him than he ever thought possible. Even though he still fights it. He has broken with his past by that time, even though he's still confused about his future. He's so adorable stumbling through some of his dialogues with her. The smooth-talking seducer is reduced to an awkward, insecure man in love.

*squeee*



That Rinna weighs heavily on him is shown several times. That's why there will never be a 'Gauntlet' without Zevran for me. My PC deserves to hear his (for her) strange answer to the Guardian.

[Sabriana]

spottyblanket wrote...

Is it possible to just kiss Zev?

Only with the dialogue tweaks mod, afaik.

[ejoslin]

spottyblanket wrote...

Is it possible to just kiss Zev?

Not without modding your game with something like "Dialog tweaks."

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh yes. At that point he's flipped to 'adore' iirc. There is no question for him anymore that she has become more to him than he ever thought possible. Even though he still fights it. He has broken with his past by that time, even though he's still confused about his future. He's so adorable stumbling through some of his dialogues with her. The smooth-talking seducer is reduced to an awkward, insecure man in love.
*squeee*

That Rinna weighs heavily on him is shown several times. That's why there will never be a 'Gauntlet' without Zevran for me. My PC deserves to hear his (for her) strange answer to the Guardian.

Oh, the gauntlet also works better if you don't know about Rinna.  I understand why you can ask him about her at 71+ adore, and it really does make it clear (hah, at least according to my husband) that his feelings are far deeper than he's admitting.  He's not hiding anything from the Warden at that point.  

I'm happy because my game glitched into "love" again.  Alistair is dumped.  We'll see if he's flagged "still in love" or "just friends."  Since they're going to be married, I think, I hope he has no more feelings.  Though, you know ,this may be the one Cousland who doesn't care enough about Ferelden to feel a duty to rebuild it.  This Cousland may just marry the elf instead.  I don't know!

Edit: I think Ferelden, however, would be more forgiving of their queen having an elven lover than of a Cousland actually marrying an elf.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 février 2010 - 02:06 .

[Sabriana]

Bleh! Back for some Zevran love, I am. I don't know why I even bother to go to those threads.

To think, I ditched a whole play-through because I accidentally turned the Zevran romance off, and in no way could turn it back on.

I swear, I am beginning to suspect that people happily string him along on purpose, then initiate the romance, and then wonder why he reacts the way he does.

How hard is it to pick "No, never"?

[spottyblanket]

Thats a shame then. Same with Leilana I assume?

[Sabriana]

My HNF rogue (thanks a lot "of noble cast" mod) isn't that far in yet, but I do know that she has little intention to serve Ferelden other than saving it from the archdemon. She really is an odd one, that one, I tell you.

First she finds Zevran weird, then intriguing, and then he gets her interested enough that she just basically ignores Alistair (100 love). She is very drawn to our elf, and I don't think she will be able to share herself with him, Alistair, and Ferelden. Strange girl, that.



P.S. I want my 'love' flip! Man, what a thing to hope for your game to glitch. Bad Zevran, bad, bad elf.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Bleh! Back for some Zevran love, I am. I don't know why I even bother to go to those threads.
To think, I ditched a whole play-through because I accidentally turned the Zevran romance off, and in no way could turn it back on.
I swear, I am beginning to suspect that people happily string him along on purpose, then initiate the romance, and then wonder why he reacts the way he does.
How hard is it to pick "No, never"?

Hahahaha, to be fair, though, I do the Alistair romance to various stages before dumping him for Zevran.  Unless I'm playing a HNF.  And even this Elissa got him to 71+ adore and was forced to choose.

It's so funny how much I like that "love" glitch.  It makes ZERO difference in terms of game play, but it's just fun to see it at (Love).

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 février 2010 - 02:10 .

[spottyblanket]

I know you make Zev happiest when you are in a threesome in the game. Which you an do with leilana and the duelist lady...can you do it with Alistar? 0_0

[jenovan]

spottyblanket wrote...

Thats a shame then. Same with Leilana I assume?

Yup, exact same deal. :|  But Dialog Tweaks will let you kiss both of them, hooray! ;D

[spottyblanket]

Dialogue tweaks?

[Sabriana]

Yeh, but you do it on purpose. They are all (well, most) shocked and dismayed if it is to be believed.

My Cousland doesn't give a damn what Ferelden thinks. She is saving their collective butts, and they better leave her alone. She's a Grey Warden now, and her former life is done. Let Fergus take up the reigns at Highever.

Well, of course she doesn't know that Fergus is still alive yet, but she'd likely go dig up a distant cousin and install her/him into Highever. At this point however, Howe still has Highever firmly in hand. Bloody Loghain....mumble...grumble...

[Sabriana]

spottyblanket wrote...

I know you make Zev happiest when you are in a threesome in the game. Which you an do with leilana and the duelist lady...can you do it with Alistar? 0_0

Dialogue Tweaks is a mod, available at dragonage nexus. And yes, you can do it with Alistair as well. Just make sure you harden his outlook on life.

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

Seriously, the way he answers, "He was. And more." His voice there, it really leaves no room for doubt, in my mind at least, that he and Taliesen were lovers. It's so honest and pained.

An interesting thing is this conversation will happen before he tells the Warden about Rinna (I suppose it may happen after if you break it up with him after he hits adore and take a big approval hit and you're able to restart the romance, but in most cases, that doesn't happen). I think it flows better that way.

This conversation, even though you take a big approval hit (-6), is so honest and painful. It's part of the reason I don't think Zevran loved Rinna. But I also think what happened with Rinna and the Crow's reaction was what made him take a good, long look at himself and lead him to suicide by Warden. I have a lot more to say about this, but I haven't had enough coffee yet. Jenovan, I would be very interested in hearing your reaction to this conversation -- I hope you're able to keep your PC at 69 care.

Ahh, nice to see that written out   Heh, I did something or other in game that jumped Zevran up to Adore (oddly, I think it was fighting Kitty! I'm surprised XD) , so Morrigan made my mage break up with him. :| But the "Do you stare..." line is there, so I can restart the romance if needed.  I suppose I should take him out of the party, but I'm getting ready to do Orzammar, and he's just so interesting there.

Hmmm... re: Rinna, I think there's a big clue that Zevran wasn't so utterly in love with her -- at least, not compared to how he feels about the Warden.  He says she was "everything I thought I wanted."  Thought?  That definitely makes it sound like an infatuation, to me.  He might have thought (and feared) that it was love at the time, but at this point he's learned about a new kind of depth of feeling...  Just my take on it.


Oh!  I discovered something interesting last night when dissecting the earring conversations... In the second conversation, I know people usually recommend taking the "I am no wiser than you" line... and of course that works.  But there's another line there, I think it's something like "maybe it would be better for you if we broke this off" (ahh, why didn't I write this down!...)... it sounds negative, but it doesn't work out that way!   Zevran will still offer the earring after that.  I was stunned. XD  Perhaps he appreciates that you're concerned about his feelings, his freedom.  I thought that was a surprising turn.
(I AM using Dialogue Tweaks, so I don't know if it might be a glitch, but I kind of doubt it...?)

Modifié par jenovan, 15 février 2010 - 02:25 .

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

Ahh, nice to see that written out   Heh, I did something or other in game that jumped Zevran up to Adore (oddly, I think it was fighting Kitty! I'm surprised XD) , so Morrigan made my mage break up with him. :| But the "Do you stare..." line is there, so I can restart the romance if needed.  I suppose I should take him out of the party, but I'm getting ready to do Orzammar, and he's just so interesting there.

Hmmm... re: Rinna, I think there's a big clue that Zevran wasn't so utterly in love with her -- at least, not compared to how he feels about the Warden.  He says she was "everything I thought I wanted."  Thought?  That definitely makes it sound like an infatuation, to me.  He might have thought (and feared) that it was love at the time, but at this point he's learned about a new kind of depth of feeling...  Just my take on it.


Oh!  I discovered something interesting last night when dissecting the earring conversations... In the second conversation, I know people usually recommend taking the "I am no wiser than you" line... and of course that works.  But there's another line there, I think it's something like "maybe it would be better for you if we broke this off" (ahh, why didn't I write this down!...)... it sounds negative, but it doesn't work out that way!   Zevran will still offer the earring after that.  I was stunned. XD  Perhaps he appreciates that you're concerned about his feelings, his freedom.  I thought that was a surprising turn.
(I AM using Dialogue Tweaks, so I don't know if it might be a glitch, but I kind of doubt it...?)

I always choose, "Maybe it would be better for you if we stopped."  It's not a glitch.  And it's not negative if you think about it.  The warden isn't saying she wants it to stop, she's saying she wants to do what is best for Zevran.  His answer is just wonderful.  

Warden: Maybe it would be better for you if we stopped.
Zevran: Maybe it would be. But only if it is impossible that there might be something between us, some possibility of... I do not know what.
Warden: I hope so
Zevran: I... still have the earring. (etc etc etc)

I absolutely love that exchange (obviously, since I have the screen shots!).

Edit: I agree with you.  He doesn't say, "She was everything I ever wanted," which has a far different meaning. 

Second edit: With the earring conversation, I think if you go that route, it gives the Warden's responses a far deeper meaning as well.  Either "I hope so" or "I don't know, but I know how I feel about you," really just works so well right there in being right with him hoping that there's a possibility of so much more.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 février 2010 - 02:47 .

[Sabriana]

jenovan wrote...

Hmmm... re: Rinna, I think there's a big clue that Zevran wasn't so utterly in love with her -- at least, not compared to how he feels about the Warden.  He says she was "everything I thought I wanted."  Thought?  That definitely makes it sound like an infatuation, to me.  He might have thought (and feared) that it was love at the time, but at this point he's learned about a new kind of depth of feeling...  Just my take on it.


Oh!  I discovered something interesting last night when dissecting the earring conversations... In the second conversation, I know people usually recommend taking the "I am no wiser than you" line... and of course that works.  But there's another line there, I think it's something like "maybe it would be better for you if we broke this off" (ahh, why didn't I write this down!...)... it sounds negative, but it doesn't work out that way!   Zevran will still offer the earring after that.  I was stunned. XD  Perhaps he appreciates that you're concerned about his feelings, his freedom.  I thought that was a surprising turn.
(I AM using Dialogue Tweaks, so I don't know if it might be a glitch, but I kind of doubt it...?)

Yeah, that line works too, and it has some great dialogue.

About Rinna, yes the "thought I wanted" gave me (and my PC) a bit of pause. He thought that he experienced the higher emotions through Rinna, but when he meets and starts falling for the Warden, he knows that there is far more to them than he initially thought.

He never knew love, bonding, or even true friendship before, so when he falls for the Warden, she makes him realize that he hasn't even seen the half of it. Hence, he gets even more confused, and fights even harder against himself.

The line "You are a friend" (or thereabouts) and his answer "You say that so easily...." is so sweet. That's why I think that even Rinna/Taliesin didn't even come close to what he is feeling for her.

*Dammnit! Am I the only one who never gets the 'stare' line? I feel cheated!!!*

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...
I always choose, "Maybe it would be better for you if we stopped."  It's not a glitch.  And it's not negative if you think about it.  The warden isn't saying she wants it to stop, she's saying she wants to do what is best for Zevran.  His answer is just wonderful.  

Warden: Maybe it would be better for you if we stopped.
Zevran: Maybe it would be. But only if it is impossible that there might be something between us, some possibility of... I do not know what.
Warden: I hope so
Zevran: I... still have the earring. (etc etc etc)

I absolutely love that exchange (obviously, since I have the screen shots!).

Second edit: With the earring conversation, I think if you go that route, it gives the Warden's responses a far deeper meaning as well.  Either "I hope so" or "I don't know, but I know how I feel about you," really just works so well right there in being right with him hoping that there's a possibility of so much more.

Ahh, yes!  That is such a lovely exchange.  Zevran's reply seems to say something like, "I know this is crazy, but I need you anyway" -- it goes in the face of everything he's ever learned, as he's said elsewhere, but it's almost impossible for him to leave at this point.  And you're right, the PC's possible replies to that make for a great flow there.

Sabriana wrote...
The line "You are a friend" (or thereabouts) and his answer "You say that so easily...." is so sweet. That's why I think that even Rinna/Taliesin didn't even come close to what he is feeling for her.

*Dammnit! Am I the only one who never gets the 'stare' line? I feel cheated!!!*

Hehe, I love that "you are a friend" exchange... it is sweet, and very telling of how his relationships in the Crows really were.  He might call Taliesen a "friend", but it obviously means something far different to him than the Warden's care.

I'm wondering what exactly triggers the "do you stare" line...  When my mage had to dump Zevran for Morrigan, Zevran went to high 50's, low 60's Warm (not sure exactly which), but the line was there immediately.  Perhaps because he was still interested in the PC, but only stepped aside out of respect for Morrigan?

On the other hand... (oh god, the hurt) I tried breaking up with Zevran at the back alley right before the Taliesen fight. He had been at 100 Adore, and there were no other romances on.  (Lost 45 approval for that... ye gods...) The "do you stare" line does not appear at 55 Warm. I tried a few small gifts to see if they'd make a difference, but no. I'm wondering if one of the plot gifts would do the trick... Or if you never get the chance if you've dumped him cold like that.

[ejoslin]

No, you only get the "do you stare" line if it's possible to start the romance and he's above 26+. If you don't get it, it's done for good. I have no clue why sometimes you can restart it and sometimes you can't. I've noticed the same thing with the Alistair romance. Sometimes after dumping him you can restart it, but usually you can't. You're supposed to be able to start each romance twice, but it certainly doesn't seem to work out that way.



And yes, Zevran to me at that point in the conversation is giving a HUGE commitment. The only way it would be good to stay in the relationship is if there's that possibility of something he has never even considered possible. He makes it very clear that it cannot be casual at all. Also, it makes the second offer of the earring sound more like a proposal, because he has just made it clear that the only way the relationship will work for him is if they have a future together.

[Sabriana]

@ Jenovan



That could be possible. The only time my PC broke up with him was more or less accidentally and not because of Alistair (or even Leliana, was I ever so shocked), and the line never appeared. I ditched her, and started a new game (*grumble...stupid mage...*)

I tried the break up to just get the line in old saves, but never managed to do that. Iirc, those saves where when he was at 80 - 100 adore and I had my PC break up with him (repeatedly, gah, I felt so dirty and mean) to get the line specifically. So it's very possible that there is a difference between a 'cold' dumping and dumping him because of choosing. Hmm..



-45? Godsamercy, that's a huge chunk. I don't remember if he gave my PC such a drop. Do you have an old save? Could you try the plot-gift trick still in that game? That's quite interesting.

[jenovan]

I think I can go back to before my PC gave Zevran the Dalish gloves. He was at 94 Adore there, I think, so I could try it and see if I get the same result, and then see if the gloves will rekindle the romance.



I think -45 is about the biggest drop I've ever seen! Breaking up with him after the proposal and all was only -20ish. I sort of wondered if it was because we were out in the world and not at camp, so it was in front of everyone? Oooor, since Zevran was at Adore and not Love... maybe he's less angry when in love because he can leave (since the Crows are no longer a threat to him). Before the Taliesen encounter, he sees little choice but to stay with the PC, so now he's stuck, as he says in one breakup scenario, "watching something he can't have".



I'll try some different things (ouch, ouch) tonight