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[soignee]

Hello Zev thread, I am back from holiday with sunburn. Barrowhand and I had a lovely time chasing watching surfers on the beach.

I sort of attempted to write, but got distracted. Someone condense this week's action in a paragraph for me, go go go!

Modifié par soignee, 02 mai 2010 - 02:39 .

[webbedfeet]

Mscheveous wrote...

@Webbed - I think I have always missed that part of the ending with him. Was I not paying attention enough or did you have to choose a specfic option? Normally I always take him up with me, if thats a factor, and my usual response is the whatever the option of him not being a better assassin, cant remeber the exact wording...

BUT - if I did get that, I have to kind of agree. I think if he is willing to go kick butt at the black city for you kind of says it all. It's perhaps Alistairs equivalent of actually throwing himself off the roof for his love...

If you have ejoslin's mod, then you need to NOT take him with you, IIRC. He makes the saddest kicked puppy sadface ever* and say something to the effect of 'To be by your side I would storm the gates of the Dark City itself.' Which is a rather squeeable line. Especially to, oh, people who spent their entire lives being told that their kind taking so much as a step into the Black City was the start of all the world's troubles and it's a sin to be born as one. But I'm sort of hypersensitive to the mage perspective, no thanks to the default PC, so my views can be biased. It's more than throwing himself off the roof. It's saying he can destroy the world all over again, Maker be damned, if it means he can be with you.

*I hate to bring Alistair into this again, but I'd like to note that people saying they can't break up with Alistair but can break up with Zev because Alistair makes them feel like they're kicking a puppy is bullocks. Zev totally has the most kicked of kicked puppy sadfaces. Ever. RAWR.

@ejoslin : I find it very, very adorable that he is indeed the only one who is completely there for YOU. Not for the blight. Not for giggles. From the very start, you're the reason he's there and if you value him, you're the reason he stays. You give him a place to belong and accept him for being himself---and in turn he does the same for you. Not you the Grey Warden. Not you the Whatever Your Origin Is. Just you. That's very endearing. This squee bait-ness is not helped by...well, the fact that his companion quest isn't even a quest. He doesn't require you to do anything for him. He doesn't ask you to do this, help me with that, et cetera. He just needs you to be there for him and stand up for him when he needs it, and in return he'll be the only one to stay with you beyond the end (if you friendzone everyone instead of romance). I find *that* angle particularly touching, even if half the DA fandom says he's 'less' of a character by not having a full-blown questline, quest items and all the usual RPG trappings. More realistic, too, but that's just me.

Er. I think I just talked myself into OT zone. >_>

[Sarah1281]

soignee wrote...

I sort of attempted to write, but got distracted. Someone condense this week's action in a paragraph for me, go go go!

How about an image?

[soignee]

oh god alistair sparkle ponyyyyyyyyyyyy

brb, loling

[Herr Uhl]

Yes, the Alicorn is a good way to sum up this week.

[ejoslin]

webbedfeet wrote...

If you have ejoslin's mod, then you need to NOT take him with you, IIRC. He makes the saddest kicked puppy sadface ever* and say something to the effect of 'To be by your side I would storm the gates of the Dark City itself.' Which is a rather squeeable line. Especially to, oh, people who spent their entire lives being told that their kind taking so much as a step into the Black City was the start of all the world's troubles and it's a sin to be born as one. But I'm sort of hypersensitive to the mage perspective, no thanks to the default PC, so my views can be biased. It's more than throwing himself off the roof. It's saying he can destroy the world all over again, Maker be damned, if it means he can be with you.

*I hate to bring Alistair into this again, but I'd like to note that people saying they can't break up with Alistair but can break up with Zev because Alistair makes them feel like they're kicking a puppy is bullocks. Zev totally has the most kicked of kicked puppy sadfaces. Ever. RAWR.

@ejoslin : I find it very, very adorable that he is indeed the only one who is completely there for YOU. Not for the blight. Not for giggles. From the very start, you're the reason he's there and if you value him, you're the reason he stays. You give him a place to belong and accept him for being himself---and in turn he does the same for you. Not you the Grey Warden. Not you the Whatever Your Origin Is. Just you. That's very endearing. This squee bait-ness is not helped by...well, the fact that his companion quest isn't even a quest. He doesn't require you to do anything for him. He doesn't ask you to do this, help me with that, et cetera. He just needs you to be there for him and stand up for him when he needs it, and in return he'll be the only one to stay with you beyond the end (if you friendzone everyone instead of romance). I find *that* angle particularly touching, even if half the DA fandom says he's 'less' of a character by not having a full-blown questline, quest items and all the usual RPG trappings. More realistic, too, but that's just me.

Er. I think I just talked myself into OT zone. >_>

I think Zevran breakups are more painful than Alistair breakups as well.  Both are sweet about it, but with Zev, it's like you just took away his entire reason to live.

A lot of people dislike Zevran, and look for reasons to minimize him because if you actually look at and get to know the character, it's hard to continue to dislike him unless you're determined to do so.  And there ARE plenty of people who are determined.  They don't want to admit he falls in love and becomes completely devoted, or that he becomes the companion as a friend who would still protect the warden against anything.

As a lover or friend, he'd take on the world for the Warden and ask for nothing in return.  So if someone wants to continue to see him as nothing but a sleazy assassin, they have to do a serious disconnect from what the story actually is.  And plenty of people do that!

Edit: Once again, I fail at formatting.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mai 2010 - 03:06 .

[Sannox]

Welcome back, Soignee! You picked the best time to go, with that lovely weather. It's cold and wet now for the holiday weekend. I'm glad you had a good time. You were missed!

[soignee]

Sannox wrote...

Welcome back, Soignee! You picked the best time to go, with that lovely weather. It's cold and wet now for the holiday weekend. I'm glad you had a good time. You were missed!

I even caught the sun! How weird. And lies, I was not missed. There was Alicorns prancing about on the thread
*pets the neighing alicorn*

[Minaleth]

I believe on friday you were missed greatly, someone even said that.

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, there was a distinct lack of scantily clad females...

[Sannox]

About changing the dialogue options for the warden (again) - I think I'd mentioned before that I would have liked the option to say something like 'It means something to me', or even 'you mean something special to me'. But I just don't think I can fit that with his response. He is responding to your refusal, and I do think he would react differently if you had made a statement of your own feelings at that point. So unfortunately, the kind of thing that would make me feel better about picking the refusal option, reflects badly on him.

(And in my mind, I don't need to refuse now. It was a big surprise to find that there is no approval gain for the proposal or for accepting the earring the second time, but there's a big jump up for accepting it the first time).

(Edit: I am doing horribly long posts today, so I'm cutting this one in two, as it's about two slightly different things). 

Modifié par Sannox, 02 mai 2010 - 03:55 .

[Sannox]

It's interesting to read about other people's first playthroughs. You
don't forget your first time! Loghain died on my first playthrough
partly because I had dumped Alistair for Zevran and still felt a little
guilt. I played my hardbitten dwarf commoner as being oblivious to
love herself. I felt I was watching her and Zevran fall in love, but
neither seemed aware of it. By the time of the Landsmeet, I felt that
she was starting to realise that she felt something for him.

Then Taliesin died, and I got Zevran's lovely speech about staying with you
until one of you dies. I still think that's very powerful, regardless
of whether he would say it to a friend (perhaps that makes it even more
powerful, because it's about what he feels beyond the obsession/madness
of love). I must have immediately clicked on him again, because the
earring offer came straight after, while we were standing on the steps
above Taliesin's body. In that scenario, why would I refuse to accept
the earring because he wasn't being forthcoming enough? What I really
wanted was the opportunity for me to say that I would be with HIM until
death. I did play through the refusal option (because I do cheat and
reload sometimes) to see if it could get me to that point, and I was
horrified when I ended up hurting him. I ended up accepting the
earring.

For that warden, the Rinna story had a huge impact too.
It still does. Reading between the lines there, it's obvious why
Zevran might find it difficult to talk about love. But he does show it.

Modifié par Sannox, 02 mai 2010 - 03:57 .

[UpiH]

soignee wrote...

Sannox wrote...

Welcome back, Soignee! You picked the best time to go, with that lovely weather. It's cold and wet now for the holiday weekend. I'm glad you had a good time. You were missed!

I even caught the sun! How weird. And lies, I was not missed. There was Alicorns prancing about on the thread
*pets the neighing alicorn*

Now, you get me started 

[soignee]

UpiH wrote...

soignee wrote...

Sannox wrote...

Welcome back, Soignee! You picked the best time to go, with that lovely weather. It's cold and wet now for the holiday weekend. I'm glad you had a good time. You were missed!

I even caught the sun! How weird. And lies, I was not missed. There was Alicorns prancing about on the thread
*pets the neighing alicorn*

Now, you get me started 

ahhaha
WAT
ahah
oh lawdy, brilliant

also weirdly I was can canning drunk on decent cider last night, so APT GIF IS APT

Modifié par soignee, 02 mai 2010 - 04:07 .

[ejoslin]

Sannox, the line I added was:

"It would mean too much to me. I can't accept it." I think it is vague enough that it doesn't make him look like a jerk. I'm not using that version, btw, because, again, I think the refusal line is nice (I KNOW I'm in a minority here).

My first playthrough, I didn't get the earring offer until after Alistair dumped my warden, and so it didn't have the same context as yours did. I just remember being incredibly hurt by the way he phrased it, and moreso my next playthrough when I romanced him from the start.

I'm actually more concerned about the change I made to the friendship dialog. The way I have it now, it turns into a very powerful declaration of love rather than that of friendship. Here's how it plays out (major MAJOR change spoiler, but endgame spoiler as well):

Zevran: In the Crows, we do not have "friends," and yet here you are and I cannot help but consider you such.
Warden: I consider you a friend, as well, and more.
Zevran: I... must admit that I have thought of you in the same way. I simply had no idea you might... feel the same.
Zevran: Then allow me to say this.
Zevran: What we are doing here... stopping the Blight. I can not think of anything I have ever done which is so worthy.
Zevran: I intend to see this through to the end with you. After all... someone must take responsibility for preventing your untimely death. A suitable task for a friend, yes?

What I did was take out the romance starter line for a warden that has Zevran at love and now a warden who has Zevran at love will get this. I'm very torn about it, though. On the one hand, the friendship dialog is SO much better than the love starter, plus there's the codex entry. On the other hand, wow, this becomes so much more than was intended I think.

Edit: The other changes I made don't mess so much with the lore.  This one...  I feel bad about unloosing on the world!  I didn't touch the other selections, btw.  You still get the same for the friendship dialog.  I just made this change.  You can still turn on the romance here as well if you haven't already, but you do NOT get this if you do.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mai 2010 - 04:16 .

[UpiH]

Someone tossed in the male version on Friday and nobady cared for the ladies, so I undertook that one.

Cast Avas: Aimo, Ejoslin, Jenovan, Sami Jo, Soignee.

[Mscheveous]

LOL at sparkle pony...that is way to awesome.



@Webbed - *I hate to bring Alistair into this again, but I'd like to note that people saying they can't break up with Alistair but can break up with Zev because Alistair makes them feel like they're kicking a puppy is bullocks. Zev totally has the most kicked of kicked puppy sadfaces. Ever. RAWR........I feel the same, though I never broke it off with him. I did read about it on ejo's write up, and it seems fitting..Funny enough, the very few play throughs I did attempt at romancing someone else I had no problem breaking ties, I just cant seem to do it to poor Zev, heck..I even had to reloada game when I saw his face at my funeral. Just couldnt do it. *laugh*



@Ejo - Agreed. perhaps they dont want to fully think about why Zev is like he is, or to realize what he does is for show (IMO anyways)...Like puffing his chest up to make himself look bigger and badder type of thing. I think with the other characters its just so easy and transparent, you dont have to take the time to think, why is he/she the way they are or work at the relationship..and perhaps its because he never actually says he loves the Warden. I guess some people just need to hear it, and the rest of the team seems quick to say it..with the exception of Morrigan, but her character just annoys me for multiple reasons..So I guess I am no better then the people who dislike Zev, eh? heh..

[webbedfeet]

Mscheveous wrote...

Like puffing his chest up to make himself look bigger and badder type of thing.

If I ever write fic about Dragon Age, I'll have the best line for bookish!Warden to say now. "Zevran...have you ever realized you behave exactly like a toad?"

NOW I MUST GO BACK TO WORK. Work!

[Mscheveous]

LOL@Webbed...

[jenovan]

UpiH wrote...
Now, you get me started 

LOL!  sami jo's avvie looks so unimpressed with the whole idea XD

ejoslin wrote...

I'm actually more concerned about the change I made to the friendship dialog. The way I have it now, it turns
into a very powerful declaration of love rather than that of friendship. Here's how it plays out (major MAJOR change spoiler, but endgame spoiler as well):

Zevran: In the Crows, we do not have "friends," and yet here you are and I cannot help but consider you such.
Warden: I consider you a friend, as well, and more.
Zevran: I... must admit that I have thought of you in the same way. I simply had no idea you might... feel the same.
Zevran: Then allow me to say this.
Zevran: What we are doing here... stopping the Blight. I can not think of anything I have ever done which is so worthy.
Zevran: I intend to see this through to the end with you. After all... someone must take responsibility for preventing your untimely death. A suitable task for a friend, yes?

Hmm... I think it sounds fine and good, particularly if you're playing through this romance for the first time and/or aren't familiar with how the "love" dialogue goes.   I think, though, having the "stopping the Blight" line in there kind of pulls Zev's intent in two different directions: he thinks of you as more than a friend -- so it makes sense that he'd want to protect you -- but then he talks about stopping the Blight, too.   I feel like it muddles his intentions a little.  

Which isn't to say he couldn't feel strongly about both things! I think it's just the way the lines are written -- which I know you can't do anything about -- that makes the flow a little awkward.  But, there are plenty of awkward transitions in the vanilla dialogue, too.   It's just the nature of these dialogue trees.  

I wonder how leaving the "stopping the Blight" line would sound, to people other than me?

/2 bits

Modifié par jenovan, 02 mai 2010 - 04:49 .

[UpiH]

Sowwy, guys, I just couldn't resist.



Aloha from Hawaii

[sami jo]

UpiH wrote...

Since no-one else seemed to care, I undertook the mission.

Yes, they can

Very late reply, but that made me giggle.

[UpiH]

jenovan wrote...

UpiH wrote...
Now, you get me started 

LOL!  sami jo's avvie looks so unimpressed with the whole idea XD

Ouch, she'll flay me alive. Gotta run!

[soignee]

UpiH wrote...

Sowwy, guys, I just couldn't resist.

Aloha from Hawaii

ahahah, hurrah jibjabs! That beats the MsPaint Baywatch lulz from last week. I missed a good zevfriday, it seems. Apparently there weren't enough boobs...

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I'm actually more concerned about the change I made to the friendship dialog. The way I have it now, it turns
into a very powerful declaration of love rather than that of friendship. Here's how it plays out (major MAJOR change spoiler, but endgame spoiler as well):

Zevran: In the Crows, we do not have "friends," and yet here you are and I cannot help but consider you such.
Warden: I consider you a friend, as well, and more.
Zevran: I... must admit that I have thought of you in the same way. I simply had no idea you might... feel the same.
Zevran: Then allow me to say this.
Zevran: What we are doing here... stopping the Blight. I can not think of anything I have ever done which is so worthy.
Zevran: I intend to see this through to the end with you. After all... someone must take responsibility for preventing your untimely death. A suitable task for a friend, yes?

Hmm... I think it sounds fine and good, particularly if you're playing through this romance for the first time and/or aren't familiar with how the "love" dialogue goes.   I think, though, having the "stopping the Blight" line in there kind of pulls Zev's intent in two different directions: he thinks of you as more than a friend -- so it makes sense that he'd want to protect you -- but then he talks about stopping the Blight, too.   I feel like it muddles his intentions a little.  

Which isn't to say he couldn't feel strongly about both things! I think it's just the way the lines are written -- which I know you can't do anything about -- that makes the flow a little awkward.  But, there are plenty of awkward transitions in the vanilla dialogue, too.   It's just the nature of these dialogue trees.  

I wonder how leaving the "stopping the Blight" line would sound, to people other than me?

/2 bits

I could easily make you a version that goes like that.  Would you like me to change the Leliana back?  For a male warden, the original Leliana is better.

My motivation here, actually, was that the friendship dialog is SO powerful and the love dialog so meh that I wanted to add this dialog to a choice that a warden who was in love with Zevran would say.  This particular dialog I saw my first playthrough (he was friendzone at that point) and it was probably the main reason I chose to turn on the romance after Ali dumped my warden (I was considering it before then).  THEN it took me about 5 more playthroughs to find it again, because of course, romancing him from the start, I would never tell him he was just a friend.