35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Nonvita]

UpiH wrote...

Peace Offer #2

If this won't do, I will need Princess and Arlessa Isolde.

BRB, dying of laughter.

But Cammen still isn't dead. <_<

This calls for Princess!



Weeee picture!

Modifié par Nonvita, 02 mai 2010 - 07:48 .

[Sannox]

Nonvita wrote...
OK, I'm just going to discuss the actual line that ejoslin added, since you two seem to have the debate down pat.
I do think that the line is appropriate, and that it even fits in with his response to it. The fact is that he clearly has more emotions but is still trying to avoid discussing them. When you ask him if it means more, he basically just brushes it off as "Stop asking me about that and just take it," so if you refuse to take the earring on the grounds that it means a lot to you, I could imagine him reacting the way he does out of frustration that it forces him to admit his feelings later on. I don't think he would necessarily react differently just because you are expressing that your feelings are deeper, since the whole point is you both already know that. His reason for getting upset is completely centered around the fact that you are not letting him get away with not expressing his emotions.

It's understandable not wanting it to say, "I love you," but if it's just saying that you care deeply about it, then it doesn't seem out of place.

He does, but then he also does tell you that it means something to him (It's meant a lot ..., I have no better way to say it ...).   He just doesn't insist that it means something to you (You can sell it ...).   So of course he is frustrated when you insist that it means something - he has told that you that it does, as best as he can, I think.    It's also clear later that he doesn't know how deep your feelings are.  So I do think that he would react differently if the warden told him what they felt.  

I don't know if the conversations really flow correctly at that point though - there are four: after Taliesin, the earring offer, thanking you for freeing him from the Crows and then after the tent refusal, the talk about his feelings.    They don't feel as if they follow well, one after the other.  (Perhaps because some are romance-only and some aren't). 

ETA: I do like the line, and would want to say it.  I just don't think his response fits with it.

Modifié par Sannox, 02 mai 2010 - 08:27 .

[ejoslin]

I think he's being dishonest about his feelings. Is he being malicious or deceitful? No. He's just not acknowledging how he feels. Telling you to not get the wrong idea, what idea could you be getting from him giving a gift like this -- that he cares deeply. He's telling you that is NOT the case (though of course it is). In fact, he almost slips and tells you you mean a lot to him, and he corrects himself (ouch). He tells you it's ok to sell the earring. He tells you it's nothing more than a thank you. All of these are not true.



Is it ok to accept the earring? Of course it is. I've never said otherwise. But it is also perfectly valid to NOT accept it, and have it not be manipulative or mean. It could just be a warden who DOES want more and lets him know, right there and then, that they do. Or, as in my case, I found the first offer of the earring hurtful.



And of course, if you accept the earring, the declaration is almost exactly the same. Except for one thing -- he wants a bit more of a commitment. He does want a commitment either way, though. Just with the earring, he's willing to admit the next step.



But I also think Zevran was being dishonest about his feelings in a couple other places in the game, so it's easier for me, as my warden, to think, "ok, ENOUGH!"

[ejoslin]

@Nonvita, you should have had more dialog choices. You should have had four.

[MorGothic]

Nonvita wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Peace Offer #2

If this won't do, I will need Princess and Arlessa Isolde.

BRB, dying of laughter.

But Cammen still isn't dead. <_<

This calls for Princess!

You checked out that mod I made for you Princess yet?

I spent HOURS (10 minutes), making it for you Princess.

:crying::crying:

[Minaleth]

ejoslin wrote...
But I also think Zevran was being dishonest about his feelings in a couple other places in the game, so it's easier for me, as my warden, to think, "ok, ENOUGH!"

If my PC was patient as I am it would take another 3 years or so to '******' her off enough to confront him like that Just saying, don't hit me :3

[Cuddlezarro]

This calls for Princess!

princess cous cous needs an update!

[soignee]

Princess Cous Cous is required, I need my fix.

[ejoslin]

Minaleth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
But I also think Zevran was being dishonest about his feelings in a couple other places in the game, so it's easier for me, as my warden, to think, "ok, ENOUGH!"

If my PC was patient as I am it would take another 3 years or so to '******' her off enough to confront him like that Just saying, don't hit me :3

Why would I hit you?  I have no problem with the other point of view on this!  I guess what I am trying to explain is that NOT accepting the earring is not necessarily either manipulative or mean.  I also think it's a good thing.  At some point, if the warden loves Zevran, they are going to want the "this is casual, means nothing," to end.  My wardens hit that way before the offer of the earring.

But I also think Zevran is being dishonest about his reasons for making the warden choose between him and someone else at Adore.  And I think he's being dishonest insisting that the sex is only casual if the first time happens after "adore."  So my warden is willing to commit to him as he asks her to, even though he won't admit the reasons why.  And she can accept him wanting to think that the sex is just physical, even though, hmmm, he seems to appreciate it more than anything.  But asking her to pretend a gift like that means nothing?  There are some things...  Nope, won't happen!  

Edit: And YES! Another vote for Princess Cous Cous!

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mai 2010 - 08:14 .

[UpiH]

Unnecessary Force

[ejoslin]

Awww UpiH, it's just Zevran squee gone wild! It comes from having ambiguous dialogs, so the story becomes quite personalized when various people fill in the blanks!

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mai 2010 - 08:21 .

[Sannox]

UpiH wrote...

Unnecessary Force

"Is there any other kind?"

That's the best one yet!

Modifié par Sannox, 02 mai 2010 - 08:24 .

[Herr Uhl]

I say we ship Sarah1281 and bearded Cammen from now on.

My OTP.

Edit: Name for the pairing Bearahmen.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 02 mai 2010 - 08:27 .

[UpiH]

ejoslin wrote...

Awww UpiH, it's just Zevran squee gone wild! It comes from having ambiguous dialogs, so the story becomes quite personalized when various people fill in the blanks!

I can't but admire your commintment into the character. I apologize for distracting.

[ejoslin]

UpiH wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Awww UpiH, it's just Zevran squee gone wild! It comes from having ambiguous dialogs, so the story becomes quite personalized when various people fill in the blanks!

I can't but admire your commintment into the character. I apologize for distracting.

  I sense sarcasm   *grin* The really sad thing, I haven't played the game for over a month now, except for testing.  Well, I did manage to get a couple of characters to Lothering.  I'm not sure that counts, though :innocent:

Edit: But I DO love talking about the romance here!  But you certainly weren't distracting! 

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mai 2010 - 08:28 .

[Minaleth]

ejoslin wrote...
Why would I hit you?  I have no problem with the other point of view on this! 

I know <3 just a joke.

ejoslin wrote...
But asking her to pretend a gift like that means nothing?  There are some things...  Nope, won't happen!  

I don't interpret the situation this way. IMHO he wants to give PC a token of affection but fails to express it properly in words. I don't even get that vibe that he wants actually the PC to commit, I don't know (and honestly I don't remember the whole dialogues literally) if he really pulls some serious promise from PC, I don't remember it and I am not under this impression, but my memory might have failed. 
He wants to give PC a gift and deflects the discussion about nature of his feelings. That's usual pattern in his behaviour (except maybe when he finally tells Rhinna story). Considering his background story and whole situation I find it OK and feel no need to invade the unsafe personal grounds and confront him about that. *shrug*

[ejoslin]

Minaleth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Why would I hit you?  I have no problem with the other point of view on this! 

I know <3 just a joke.

ejoslin wrote...
But asking her to pretend a gift like that means nothing?  There are some things...  Nope, won't happen!  

I don't interpret the situation this way. IMHO he wants to give PC a token of affection but fails to express it properly in words. I don't even get that vibe that he wants actually the PC to commit, I don't know (and honestly I don't remember the whole dialogues literally) if he really pulls some serious promise from PC, I don't remember it and I am not under this impression, but my memory might have failed. 
He wants to give PC a gift and deflects the discussion about nature of his feelings. That's usual pattern in his behaviour (except maybe when he finally tells Rhinna story). Considering his background story and whole situation I find it OK and feel no need to invade the unsafe personal grounds and confront him about that. *shrug*

*grin* And that is valid.  I don't think I've said otherwise.  All I talk about is the way I see the character and the romance.  I don't think there is one way to view it.  In fact, I think I've said many times that there ARE many ways to interpret it!

Edit: But he does go out of his way to say it is NOT a token of affection.  He makes it very clear that he does not want it taken as such.  That doesn't mean that the warden doesn't want more.  My wardens at that point do.  And he slips enough that it comes across as dishonest.  I honestly cannot view that conversation as honest and forthright.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mai 2010 - 08:52 .

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I say we ship Sarah1281 and bearded Cammen from now on.

My OTP.

Edit: Name for the pairing Bearahmen.

I vote that we don't. I'm already mad at him for killing the Archdemon that one time...

Plus he's not a dwarf or as ridiculously awesome as Zevran so it would never work out.

[UpiH]

ejoslin wrote...

UpiH wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Awww UpiH, it's just Zevran squee gone wild! It comes from having ambiguous dialogs, so the story becomes quite personalized when various people fill in the blanks!

I can't but admire your commintment into the character. I apologize for distracting.

  I sense sarcasm   *grin* The really sad thing, I haven't played the game for over a month now, except for testing.  Well, I did manage to get a couple of characters to Lothering.  I'm not sure that counts, though :innocent:

Edit: But I DO love talking about the romance here!  But you certainly weren't distracting! 

I meant business, I do appreciate your analyses. Same here, my latest mage's been in Lothering for a week or so.

[ejoslin]

UpiH wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

UpiH wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Awww UpiH, it's just Zevran squee gone wild! It comes from having ambiguous dialogs, so the story becomes quite personalized when various people fill in the blanks!

I can't but admire your commintment into the character. I apologize for distracting.

  I sense sarcasm   *grin* The really sad thing, I haven't played the game for over a month now, except for testing.  Well, I did manage to get a couple of characters to Lothering.  I'm not sure that counts, though :innocent:

Edit: But I DO love talking about the romance here!  But you certainly weren't distracting! 

I meant business, I do appreciate your analyses. Same here, my latest mage's been in Lothering for a week or so.

*hugs* My apologies then!    I think I spent entirely too much time thinking about this romance.  But gah, there is SO much to it!

Edit: And I LOVE the Jibjabs!

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mai 2010 - 08:38 .

[Sannox]

I love talking about the character too, obsessively.   I'm just really grateful to the people who indulge me!  I don't know why I find it so fascinating, but it's that a game character can draw you in in that way.  I'm really impressed with what has been done with this character.   I would love to see  more of this sort of thing in future games.   (But not too hopeful - the Awakening characters didn't engage me in the same way).

[Sresla]

Since no one else seems to want to wade into the middle of Sannox and Ejoslin (although you'd think some people would be jumping at the chance), I'll go ahead and weigh in (again) on this topic.

Sannox, this is by no means an attack on you but you seem to be coming down on the side that people who choose the proposal are in some way metagaming because they want themselves married off to Zevran in the most concrete way possible and getting the 'This sounds like a proposal' line is the best way to get that. As a result, it is a bad thing because it's mean to "force" him into a delcaration because of how little he likes to discuss his 'feelings'.

Maybe you're right, in some cases, but I don't think it's mean - how one person handles the romance isn't going to be true for another.

For example - what if you could in some way, show Zevran - without words yourself - how much he means to you by giving him something? You can't really use the gloves or boots as an example of this because they aren't items that are personally significant to the Warden. The only two origins that get an item that might remotely serve the function are HN and CE (Family Sword/Fang - I'll confess, other origins might get something similiar, but mages don't and that's the origin I'm most familiar with, so...). But let's say you had some amazing item that held great personal significance and you went up to Zevran and said, "You've fought well by my side. This [resplendent ruby ring of rapture] is the only keepsake I have of my parents (I use this as a constant since everyone has to be born, except maybe in Xander's case, where his awesomeness just sprung into being one day) and it's meant a lot to me, but so do y...  er, so has what you've done for the Wardens. So, take it, sell it, chuck it in a bin, but here - do with it what you will. It's yours."

You don't think Zevran would question that? Not even a little bit? That he wouldn't press the Warden for some indication of the true meaning of the gift? Now, that doesn't sound like the Zevran *I* know. He might be coy about it or he might be direct - but I don't know if I picture a "Thank you" and that's it. Heck, I can even almost hear him saying, "Does this mean we're married in Ferelden?" and if you laughed and said, "I hope not." would give him that look we all hate.

I had a point somewhere. I was also going to go on to discuss how the game doesn't really cater to slow romance and there was more but I'm sure the discussion has been derailed x10 over by the time I've finished typing this so I'll just leave it alone and end with - everyone makes their choices at that point based on different criteria. Doesn't make either way more right or more wrong.

Modifié par Sresla, 02 mai 2010 - 08:59 .

[Minaleth]

ejoslin wrote...
*grin* And that is valid.  I don't think I've said otherwise.  All I talk about is the way I see the character and the romance.  I don't think there is one way to view it.  In fact, I think I've said many times that there ARE many ways to interpret it!

Oh yes, I love to read your viewpoint, because it's different from mine I swear this discussion never gets old...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: But he DOES go out of his way to say it is NOT a token of affection.  He makes it very clear that he does not want it taken as such.

He can say that (and he really does say that), but I read between the lines and say he is not telling what he really wants to (and probably would if the circumstances and history were different). Dangerous way to lead the conversation, but aren't women expert on that?

[ejoslin]

It was that whole, "I hope not," that nearly had me in tears the first time. It set such a painful tone for that whole conversation.

And yes, I didn't metagame to get the proposal. Through the whole game, I was expecting Alistair to propose to my character (hah, don't make fun of me over this). When Zevran did, it was a complete shock. It was the last thing I expected, and just contributed to the most perfect ending my character could have. It's why I have a fondness for CEFs. My HNF were a lot of fun for the revenge, but I have played so many CEFs just because that first game was complete magic.

Edit: @Minaleth Oh, I spend entirely too much time reading between the lines.  It's just...  *sigh* He really did make me cry.  I had just gone through so much angst over Alistair (I cried for real over that one).  Then I saw it happening again.  Allowing myself to genuinely fall for another character, just to have him refuse to acknowledge it.  "I hope not," was too hurtful.  I was mad, sad, and done with NOT having everything out in the open.  Not understanding what was going on with Alistair was too much. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mai 2010 - 09:07 .

[Minaleth]

Sresla wrote...
...

I like what you wrote, interesting material for thought.

Sresla wrote...
Doesn't make either way more right or more wrong.

I believe the reason for discussing is different. IMO people just want to tell the others what is their take on that situation and confront with other's opinions. There will never be any universal conclusion, because the dialogues are pretty much ambiguous, thus it leaves the discussion open and it will reoccur eventually. 

Edit: plus I always find a better how to word my opinion, now I am finally content with how I described it (few posts ago) and I can go to bed

Edit: I hope my posts don't sound like I am accusing anyone of anything, I am not, I love you all <3

Modifié par Minaleth, 02 mai 2010 - 09:19 .