35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sannox]

Sresla wrote...

Since no one else seems to want to wade into the middle of Sannox and Ejoslin (although you'd think some people would be jumping at the chance), I'll go ahead and weigh in (again) on this topic.

Sannox, this is by no means an attack on you but you seem to be coming down on the side that people who choose the proposal are in some way metagaming because they want themselves married off to Zevran in the most concrete way possible and getting the 'This sounds like a proposal' line is the best way to get that. As a result, it is a bad thing because it's mean to "force" him into a delcaration because of how little he likes to discuss his 'feelings'.

Maybe you're right, in some cases, but I don't think it's mean - how one person handles the romance isn't going to be true for another.

Oh, I'm sorry, that's not what I meant!  What I meant was that when I tested out how the refusal changed things, the only change was the additional dialogue that leads to the proposal.  It doesn't open any other dialogue about his feelings, as you might expect.   So the only reason to choose that option as far as outcomes go is the proposal.   That's not to say that that's the only reason people actually choose the option.  I can completely see why Ejoslin chose it first time.  

Apart from the proposal, refusing doesn't force him into any declaration.   The other dialogues seem to the be the same. 

Well, the other change, apart from the proposal dialogue opening up is the approval difference.   You do seem to get higher approval (up to 16) for accepting the earring first time.  You don't get any approval for accepting it the second time or for the proposal (although I may have made a mistake).   That was a huge surprise to me, as I felt the game, and everything I'd read had presented the proposal as the 'goal'.  (Which was a bit of a let down for my male PC).  

For example - what if you could in some way, show Zevran - without words yourself - how much he means to you by giving him something? You can't really use the gloves or boots as an example of this because they aren't items that are personally significant to the Warden. The only two origins that get an item that might remotely serve the function are HN and CE (Family Sword/Fang - I'll confess, other origins might get something similiar, but mages don't and that's the origin I'm most familiar with, so...). But let's say you had some amazing item that held great personal significance and you went up to Zevran and said, "You've fought well by my side. This [resplendent ruby ring of rapture] is the only keepsake I have of my parents (I use this as a constant since everyone has to be born, except maybe in Xander's case, where his awesomeness just sprung into being one day) and it's meant a lot to me, but so do y...  er, so has what you've done for the Wardens. So, take it, sell it, chuck it in a bin, but here - do with it what you will. It's yours."

You don't think Zevran would question that? Not even a little bit? That he wouldn't press the Warden for some indication of the true meaning of the gift? Now, that doesn't sound like the Zevran *I* know. He might be coy about it or he might be direct - but I don't know if I picture a "Thank you" and that's it. Heck, I can even almost hear him saying, "Does this mean we're married in Ferelden?" and if you laughed and said, "I hope not." would give him that look we all hate.

I had a point somewhere. I was also going to go on to discuss how the game doesn't really cater to slow romance and there was more but I'm sure the discussion has been derailed x10 over by the time I've finished typing this so I'll just leave it alone and end with - everyone makes their choices at that point based on different criteria. Doesn't make either way more right or more wrong.

Honestly, I don't think Zevran would refuse it.  I think he would accept the gift, and if it was given with the dialogue he gave, it might give him the confidence and insight to talk more about what he felt.  I think half of his problem is that he isn't sure of what the warden feels (the other half, or more than half, being what he was taught and his last experience of love).   The warden really keeps his/her cards close to her chest - more so than Zevran. 

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to play it either.   And it's probably my fault that I've had the impression that the proposal is presented as the 'right' way, because I don't think anyone has actually said that.   


*wants a resplendent ruby ring of rapture*

And now I need a picture.

And also, I would love to be able to give him a gift with meaning.   I'm still getting over the guilt of my first character keeping his gifts in her backpack because I didn't know if something might happen to drop his approval. 


By sannox at 2010-04-30

Modifié par Sannox, 02 mai 2010 - 09:32 .

[ejoslin]

Sannox, what happens is when you refuse the earring the first time, you get a medium decline of approval, which negates the other approval gain from the conversation. You can lose between 5 and 20 approval points, depending on which way you go.

But you have to keep in mind, Zevran (well, all characters really) have some interesting approval gains and losses. Just because you lose approval doesn't make it a bad thing. For instance, if Zevran leaves the fight, you can question him about it and you will lose approval. Fairly significant approval (between -6 and -15). But is it wrong for you to question him because of this?

The approval loss, if you look at the script notes, is the same between asking him about love after the first tent time and rejecting the earring if it's not a token of affection (both are medium approval loss). He far prefers being told that yeh, casual all the way.

Edit: This is a bit disjointed, I know.  I just don't think that approval loss/gain is a good measure because there are many things that even though he may prefer it, it's not necessarily what is best.

Second edit: Looking at the Taliesen conversation, it's a high approval loss if you question him about why he left, and it's followed by either no loss or a medium loss depending how you question him further.  

Another interesting place where there's an approval gain is when he's refusing to go to the tent and you push it.  There's all sorts of low approval gains in there even though he's getting mad.

I just can't help but think that he wants (he hopes at least) that the warden will want to take what he says as a proposal as a better indicator of what he's feeling than the approval gain/loss.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 01:00 .

[Sannox]

Minaleth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: But he DOES go out of his way to say it is NOT a token of affection.  He makes it very clear that he does not want it taken as such.

He can say that (and he really does say that), but I read between the lines and say he is not telling what he really wants to (and probably would if the circumstances and history were different). Dangerous way to lead the conversation, but aren't women expert on that?

Yes, and between the lines isn't very difficult to read :happy:.    He says it means a lot to him.  He just makes it clear that it doesn't have to mean a lot to you.   No wonder he gets frustrated.

Even before he explains why he didn't say more, I think there are plenty of clues.   His childhood,  the ways the Crows were treated and taught, what he did to Rinna and what it meant, and so on.   That he gets as far he does is amazing.   He is someone who has been orphaned, abused, made a slave, and taught that love is wrong, trying desparately to give you his one, most treasured possession.  The more I think about it the more heartbreaking it seems. 

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: But he DOES go out of his way to say it is NOT a token of affection.  He makes it very clear that he does not want it taken as such.

He can say that (and he really does say that), but I read between the lines and say he is not telling what he really wants to (and probably would if the circumstances and history were different). Dangerous way to lead the conversation, but aren't women expert on that?

Yes, and between the lines isn't very difficult to read :happy:.    He says it means a lot to him.  He just makes it clear that it doesn't have to mean a lot to you.   No wonder he gets frustrated.

Even before he explains why he didn't say more, I think there are plenty of clues.   His childhood,  the ways the Crows were treated and taught, what he did to Rinna and what it meant, and so on.   That he gets as far he does is amazing.   He is someone who has been orphaned, abused, made a slave, and taught that love is wrong, trying desparately to give you his one, most treasured possession.  The more I think about it the more heartbreaking it seems. 

Ugh, no, I don't get that at ALL.  It sounds like he's trying to say the earring is nothing but a thank you and do not read anything more into it.  He obviously is lying, but I don't see him saying that it means something to him but doesn't have to mean anything to the warden.  That is not what his words are saying at all.

I also don't think he views himself as this much of a victim.  It's not something he would shrug off, obviously.  Gah, this deserves more time to answer, but I have company coming over in a few minutes!

Edit: Zevran is first and foremost a survivor and a realist.  I'm not sure the rejection of the earring would hurt him so much as frustrate him.  He doesn't seem hurt.  Nothing in the notes indicate that he is!

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mai 2010 - 09:56 .

[MorGothic]

If anyone has a save game just before the earing giving conversation I could give my never romanced Zev before view/opinion on it.



I am that bored. (Well I should tidying, I can do both, right?)

[Sannox]

@ Ejoslin, surely your company undestand that you have much more important things to do!  Like talk about Zevran's romance! 

The lines are open to interpretation, and now I've seen them a certain way it's difficult to shift, I admit.   But, for instance, he says that the earring has meant a lot to him.  He's telling you that it means a lot.  If his aim was to hide his feelings he could avoid saying that.  Or avoid offering the earring in the first place. 

I don't think he sees himself as a victim either.  But I do think his background is important here.   He's not just your average guy who's afraid of commitment and doesn't like talking about feelings.   He has very deepseated, traumatic reasons to act the way he does.   And yet, he overcomes so much to get to that stage.  (And commitment isn't a problem for him).

The approval gains and losses are just one aspect, I know.   But I do think they might be some sort of guide to what makes him happy, if that's your goal (which it generally is, for me).   I just didnt see them until I tested it.   But there are other goals, and of course it's not 'wrong' to ask him about leaving the battle (I haven't had him in that state yet, so I don't know, but I imagine I would ask.  I'd want to know).  

I think (not sure) that you lose approval if you ask him if he wants the earring back.  It also looks as if you gain approval if you initially accept the earring, even if you reject it later in the conversation.  

Again, I do see why you might refuse.  I'm not saying that you shouldn't.   There is a feeling at that point that you need to something, that it's time for the relationship to move forward in some way.  Accepting the earring seems to stop that in its tracks (although it doesnt really.   He still goes off and thinks about what he feels and refuses the tent).   

[Nonvita]

ejoslin wrote...

@Nonvita, you should have had more dialog choices. You should have had four.

Right, but only two of them were asking him to stay. And it felt like those two posed a huge dichotomy that forced you to either be bestest buddies in the world with him or to keep him around only because he promised to and nothing more. It's not a major thing, but it seemed like one more response would have been appropriate as a middle ground in that situation. But you have many more important things to do, so let's not dally on it.

MorGothic wrote...

You checked out that mod I made for you Princess yet?
I spent HOURS (10 minutes), making it for you
Princess. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

I--I... arrrrrrrrg sorry MG! I've really been super busy these past couple days! Here, just for you, I will go check it out right now, promise! (But I love you and everything you do for me Princess. )

Cuddlezarro wrote...

princess cous cous needs an update!

Sorry, but it's going to be a couple weeks. *curses school*

UpiH wrote...

Unnecessary Force

Hehe, love it! But it needs more Princess.

Herr Uhl wrote...

I say we ship Sarah1281 and bearded Cammen from now on.
My OTP.
Edit: Name for the pairing Bearahmen.

Agreed with all of this. <3


OK, more on the earring--I just have to go off of real life experiences here. The thing is, even if you both know you like each other, until you're both willing to admit it there's this period of tense awkwardness that's absolutely terrible. Especially considering that the romance in the game probably took months to complete, I can't imagine being OK with skirting around each others' feelings for that long. Honestly, by that point it would be so frustrating I think I would get snippy. If it were real life, you can bet his pretending would be extremely hurtful, and my honest response would be something like, "Look, if you want this to go somewhere then just say it. Otherwise I don't think I can sit around waiting like this any longer."

I realize that, as brought up, there is no way to specifically tell him your feelings before the earring offer, but you'd think if he's going to go out of his way to offer it then he'd have come to terms with what it meant by then. If it were earlier on in the relationship it would be ok to hide what it means, but when it's come that far it just seems ridiculous to still pretend that way.


Edit: *cries at epically bad formatting*

Modifié par Nonvita, 02 mai 2010 - 10:14 .

[MorGothic]

Nonvita wrote...

MorGothic wrote...

You checked out that mod I made for you Princess yet?
I spent HOURS (10 minutes), making it for you
Princess. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

I--I... arrrrrrrrg sorry MG! I've really been super busy these past couple days! Here, just for you, I will go check it out right now, promise! (But I love you and everything you do for me Princess. )

Don't worry about it you can't help being busy, leave it untill the next Princess update.

[TanithAeyrs]

a little off the Zevran earring topic but does anyone remember him making any reference to sailing or his sea voyage to Ferelden. I don't have the toolset downloaded (old computer and the hard drive is almost full) so I can't check for dialog options I haven't gotten.



I am trying to determine if I am off base in my FF with my portrayal of Zev. I think he would like the freedom and danger of sailing, but I could be wrong.

[Jayelet]

@Ejoslin and @Sannox

I have my own theory on this point in the game.
I do not think Zevran be afraid of their feelings. But for the life he led, seriously thinks that the character is playing with him.
One of the things that I've always been clear with Zevran, is that he is dispensable and nobody really thinks it can love or want a future with him.
When offered the slope, you said it was important for him, but sincerely believes that it is not important for the character, that Zevran not really sure he feels the same.

I hope I have managed to explain

[BlastedLands]

Jayelet wrote...

@Ejoslin and @Sannox

I have my own theory on this point in the game.
I do not think Zevran be afraid of their feelings. But for the life he led, seriously thinks that the character is playing with him.
One of the things that I've always been clear with Zevran, is that he is dispensable and nobody really thinks it can love or want a future with him.
When offered the slope, you said it was important for him, but sincerely believes that it is not important for the character, that Zevran not really sure he feels the same.

I hope I have managed to explain

hey! i know what you mean. and i was thinking something similar by times:)

[ejoslin]

Jayelet, that actually does make a lot of sense. It actually falls in line with how I feel him being so guarded. Hmmmm. That makes me think rejecting the earring only if it means something is MORE important.

Gah, that is a very different way of looking at it, and it makes a TON of sense.

Hah, and yes, in Michigan we don't let a little rain stop a barbecue. But it does make for an early evening

Edit: turning down the earring in that context, letting him know that you want more from him, it's probably something that is incredibly new to him.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 12:13 .

[ejoslin]

TanithAeyrs wrote...

a little off the Zevran earring topic but does anyone remember him making any reference to sailing or his sea voyage to Ferelden. I don't have the toolset downloaded (old computer and the hard drive is almost full) so I can't check for dialog options I haven't gotten.

I am trying to determine if I am off base in my FF with my portrayal of Zev. I think he would like the freedom and danger of sailing, but I could be wrong.

He never says how he came to Ferelden. 

[Creature 1]

I think by ship would be the fastest way to get from Antiva to Ferelden. They no doubt have a lot of trade at their principle ports, so there are probably any number of ships you could book a cabin (or hammock in the hold) in.

[Nonvita]

Creature 1 wrote...

I think by ship would be the fastest way to get from Antiva to Ferelden. They no doubt have a lot of trade at their principle ports, so there are probably any number of ships you could book a cabin (or hammock in the hold) in.

Yes, but by land would be the more scenic route, if you know what I mean.

(Kidding. I'd wager he must have come by ship since it's a rather long way by land.)

MorGothic wrote...
Don't worry about it you can't help being
busy, leave it untill the next Princess update. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Checked it out and it's great, but I'll wait for a better time to get some good shots.  (You're awesome, btw. Er, so says Princess...)

Modifié par Nonvita, 03 mai 2010 - 12:36 .

[Herr Uhl]

Nonvita wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

I think by ship would be the fastest way to get from Antiva to Ferelden. They no doubt have a lot of trade at their principle ports, so there are probably any number of ships you could book a cabin (or hammock in the hold) in.

Yes, but by land would be the more scenic route, if you know what I mean.

(Kidding. I'd wager he must have come by ship since it's a rather long way by land.)

And the fact that both Antiva City and Denerim are harbor cities. Going by foot would be dumb, and take a couple of months at the very least.

[soignee]

see my mind is desperate to take this to seaman and sailors with all this talk of boats, It's been a long day.

[soignee]

YARRRR PIRATE ZEVRAN REPORTING FOR DUTY!

*swabs some decks*

[Tellervo]

See, I agree with Sresla and Ejoslin. It was frustration on my Warden's part that led to the initial refusal of the earring, not at his inability to talk about his emotions but his attempt to play them down. There's only so much a person can take, even when trying to be understanding (and even when madly in love with someone). I don't empathize much with Wardens who accept it the first time. That doesn't make it wrong to accept it, I've just yet to play a Warden who would be fine with, "I obviously love you, but I refuse to confront it with myself, let alone express it to you, so I'm going to pretend I don't."

Of course, "agree with Sresla" is probably safe to assume for my stance on most things game-related, as far as I can tell.

Modifié par Tellervo, 03 mai 2010 - 01:08 .

[Mscheveous]

Sorry, catching up...

Zevran actually admits at some point that he is confused by his feelings for you, I think it may be after the ring incident. Being raised in the **** House skewered his views on love, and what it really means. Then, being taught through being a crow never to get emotionally involved doesnt help.

With that being said - up until the earring offer the relationship isnt fully clear as to what it really is, just a fling? a fun time in the tent? ECT. Even when Wynn questions you about it, your options to talk back to her with seem to verify your not sure yourself, but for the moment its just a good time while it lasts, Though at that point your in love too. Both of you are confused by it. Coming from any background it seems you would be a little confused by 'love'..human noble? if you question Darrien right about visiting you later that night, he throws out something about hearing about you, which I took it as your just a little hoe..Wouldnt nessessarly know much about love at point, or perhaps dont want to, Mage? your raised in the circle, Wynn even says, even though the mages might of 'played' there was no relationships. Dwarf? well, you know why that would be skewered, ect.

I think you just have a better clue as to what love means more then him, and you know thats what your feeling, and you want to know for once if that is what he feels too, and knowing his background you dont really need to hear the words, but when he gives the ring and goes out of his way to make it sound like it being just a thank you present, nothing more...flustering.



Wanting a little confirmation by making him only offer it when it means something more to him (The second offering) I dont feel breaks any lore just kind of nudges him to sit and think on things. He now knows how you feel, and can then begin to admit to himself how he feels.

I havent gotten to that point in this play-through with the new MOD, but I dont feel adding a small dialogue choise throws it out of balance, some of us just felt bad declining it the first time..expecially knowing it from a real time view and not from the Wardens, and I am definatly looking forward to an 'easier' let down so I can get the second offering.



Look at me ramble on - I need more coffee.



I dont remeber him ever saying how he got to ferelden either - just a small part when seeing Isabella and knowing her, she sails and came in via ship, perhaps he did as well..not with her though.



Did I miss anything else? ...hehe

[Mscheveous]

soignee wrote...

YARRRR PIRATE ZEVRAN REPORTING FOR DUTY!
*swabs some decks*

Ooh I love that one! I LOL'd so hard when I heard him say that!

[sami jo]

I can't believe I actually caught up with the thread. This is new.



I have played the earring both ways with different characters for different reasons. The two characters who accepted the ring the first time did so for different reasons. The first was confident after all the times that Zev had asked about the future that Zev wanted to be with him, but with as much danger as they were in, he wouldn't have felt right asking for a commitment. He would have had that conversation after the archdemon was dead and they didn't have half the living and non-living things in Ferelden out to get them. The second was as broken as Zev in that respect and while she wanted it to mean more, she wouldn't have asked him for more than he was comfortable with offering.



The ones who refused it initially took the threat of death that was looming over them as a really good reason to leave nothing unsaid. They had danced around the "L" word with Zev and really needed to hear that they meant to him what he did to them. That's why I really wish that line was something like "I need it to mean something to me." or "I want it to mean more." or something like that. The way it is written sounds as if the Warden is demanding something of Zev but isn't offering the same in return.



And I am probably rambling incoherently right now. I should just say ditto to EJ, Sres and Tell (and Jen I think, but I'm not positive).

[Mscheveous]

Speaking of Dialogue changes, I would love the option of telling Ignacio that the reason I am killing him is because he just called my man a ****son...



Yeah, "Take that dire bunny! Fear my sword of truthiness!"