35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Mscheveous]

Of course, but being the Warden you can kind of feel the same way, maybe?..Is the party banter supposed to be part of the story, kind of? Or just there to keep the player amused while they are running around..Keeping any type of woman in the group with you along with Zevran you get to listen to him continally hit on that girl, though humorous I admit. I myself as the player know it's just his way, but would the Warden? Is the Warden then really supposed to be hearing that? Dont you get questioned the moment you start hitting on other of the characters past a certain point, or is it just if you have sex with them, I havent tried it without going back to the tent? I know if I heard my husband/boyfriend saying something like that he'd be swallowing his teeth..LOL.



Perhaps I need to go reread everything fully, its been a while and see if I cant pick up different feelings on responses now.

[Sannox]

@ Undutchable  Don't get the wrong idea - you can sell it, give it away, etc. - I do think he's saying something like 'I'm not asking anything of you by giving this.  I just want to give it'.    It's given without any ulterior motive.  

My male PC has three options at that point:
I don't want it really
This is a bit out of the blue, isn't it?
It's a fine gift, Zevran.  Thank you.

Zevran's response has to follow from all three of those.  The first two are rather negative, and I can see why they would prompt him to say something like 'Don't worry, it's not a big deal.  I just want to give it'.  The third one is the only one where I think the PC might take offence at his answer, although I do think he means the same thing there.    But given the context of the other two, I don't think he's lying.  I think he's just making it clear that he's not making demands - he's being honest about the context in which he is offering it.  

Yes, I think the PC makes a difference.  I played my casteless dwarf first, and it made sense for her to accept it.   She was equally useless at understanding and expressing her feelings.   (But I did really want an option for her to at least say as much as he says at that point).

I agree about Alistair.  I have played Leliana's romance, but I didn't find it engaging.   Morrigan is my second favourite after Zevran, and there are some similiarities there.  

Modifié par Sannox, 03 mai 2010 - 09:11 .

[UnDutchable]

Sannox wrote...

@ Undutchable  Don't get the wrong idea - you can sell it, give it away, etc. - I do think he's saying something like 'I'm not asking anything of you by giving this.  I just want to give it'.    It's given without any ulterior motive.  

My male PC has three options at that point:
I don't want it really
This is a bit out of the blue, isn't it?
It's a fine gift, Zevran.  Thank you.

Zevran's response has to follow from all three of those.  The first two are rather negative, and I can see why they would prompt him to say something like 'Don't worry, it's not a big deal.  I just want to give it'.  The third one is the only one where I think the PC might take offence at his answer, although I do think he means the same thing there.    But given the context of the other two, I don't think he's lying.  I think he's just making it clear that he's not making demands - he's being honest about the context in which he is offering it.  

Yes, I think the PC makes a difference.  I played my casteless dwarf first, and it made sense for her to accept it.   She was equally useless and understanding and expressing her feelings.   (But I did really want an option for her to at least say as much as he says at that point).

I agree about Alistair.  I have played Leliana's romance, but I didn't find it engaging.   Morrigan is my second favourite after Zevran, and there are some similiarities there.  

Yeah, I suppose he's trying to say it's a gift with no strings attached; Zevran never really asks anything from you. Something about that line really rubs me the wrong way, though. Maybe it's because his voice sounds a little harsh? I dunno. The first time I heard it I went  "oh no you didn't", I even did the little head shake. XD

The Morrigan and Zevran romances are incredibly awesome, agreed. I romanced them both on my first male playthrough and it was the most hilariously intense emotional rollercoaster ever. They both go from  "I won't ask anything of you, this is just something casual with no strings attached" to  "oh help I'm falling in love with you and I can't sleep with you anymore". Of course Morrigan's romance ends on a less satisfying note, but I'm guessing they reserved that for DA2?

[Sannox]

@ Elps The earring does have emotional significance.  He says that it has meant a lot to him.   You can choose how you want to interpret that.  (Personally, I would love to know more about that story.  What did that first job mean to him?  What did he feel?  Why does the earring mean so much to him?).

@ Mscheveous  Sex with the other companions is fine, but once both of you are at a certain level of approval, you have to choose.  Zevran gives different reasons for the choice than the others, but he still makes you choose.   The flirting ...  openly flirting, without intent, hasn't been a problem for my characters.   In fact, one of my characters played it as an open relationship and there were no problems apart from the fact that Zevran remained completely faithful! 

In real life, it would depend.  I don't mind flirting (it's usually just fun and sociable rather than a prelude to sex), but I'd expect a guy I was with to make it clear that I was more important than the people he flirted with.  I think Zevran does that.

ETA: The dialogue options with the gifts you give him don't allow you give them in the way that he gives you the earring.  You can give them in a nice way, but not with the same meaning.

@ Sresla I prefer to play the game as if there are no really significant conversations going on outside of the dialogue I'm given.  So I would not play my character as, for instance, having already told Zevran she loved him before the earring offer.  I like to go on what's given, even though that's restrictive.   I realise that it doesn't have to be played that way, and that obviously you would be having conversations outside of the dialogues you're given.  

I can see that somebody might want to play 'married in Antiva' as a serious question.  I just think that, from his response, Zevran doesn't think that the PC means it seriously.   Yes, you could continue to play it as if he does think the PC means it seriously, and I could see why that would be extremely hurtful.  But I think it's a bit out of character for him.  He has no problem with commitment, or (as you find out if you get the proposal dialogue) with getting married.  It could also be played that Zevran takes it as a joke, but the PC thinks it's a serious rejection, and that wouldn't change Zevran's character.  

There's a similar question with Alistair, when he offers the rose.   You can ask if it means you're married.  I suppose that could be played either way too.  Alistair 'rejects' the warden too, jokingly.  

But I don't think Zevran is taking a step backwards - the whole earring offer is a step forwards for him.   I agree that there are two sides, and that the warden can play it differently, but given just the ingame dialogue, Zevran has no way of knowing what the warden feels at that point.   (And it's also very open to being played that the warden doesn't care that much for him.  The responses fit that).   It's 'one-sided' in that he says much more about what he feels in that conversation than the warden does. 

Modifié par Sannox, 03 mai 2010 - 10:27 .

[Rowen TreeWalker]

CBGB wrote...



I'm a writer, and I've misread him. I missed an appeal Zevran must have, and I'd like to understand it better. What makes him click with you, if he does?

Strickly speaking as a reader... I think the biggest appeal that you might have missed has nothing to do with the "character" but all to do with the story. Hahaha. We can add "our" thoughts and our feelings about Zevran, Alistair, Morrigan and Leilanna all we want, but in the end the awesome dialogue submitted by Bioware's writers for these NPCs are what really makes Zevran the most engaging. Stay with me a moment. First off, as a mature reading adult, Alistair's romance is "typical" innocent idolation. You've read it in one form or another a hundred times. Bioware does a nice job of duty versus love, but still.. its not new enough. Same thing really for Leilanna, although i've not actually tried the female relationship option yet. Even "harden" she is a bit too clique'd in her obsessive dependant form of "loving" your PC. (And really kind of creepy with how often she gets jealous about Anyone.) Morrigan and Zevran where more out of the ordinary. Their standoffish feelings may have seemed similar, but with Morrigan the dialogue seem to indicated the story with the main character was all about keeping self interests in perspective. She isn't "in love", but has needs that the main character can fullfill and your warden isn't as offensive to her senses as Alistair is to gain those objectives. She pretty much doesn't continue with romance if its not in your interest. There isn't a continued story. Its obvious, its ending to her. Same with Alistair. In the end, its ending... awkwardly. Zevran's romantic options aren't apparent at first, and on my first play thru I feel into it accidently. I think someone else stated it best. Zevran seems like a really good drinking buddy, not guy you fall in love with. Funny how, as a writer, we would assume "romance" is an instant option. But its really hard to describe in script that nebulous tingle that sparks "interested" into "passion" and then deep feelings of closeness and finally love. Bioware just didn't hit that with any of the other characters. But if you follow the romantic option with Zevran, they nailed it right on the head.

[Sannox]

@ Undutchable, I think I know what you mean about his voice. Throughout that conversation, he keeps it very light. It doesn't come across as an emotional outpouring at all. But I think there is a lot of emotion under the surface. I think that's typical of him. 'Don't get the wrong idea' fits well with the two negative PC dialogue options. But with the positive one (accepting it) and that tone of voice, I can see it come across as, well, cheeky even - what wrong idea? Did I suggest any idea?



He might be responding to somebody who doesn't feel the same way, though. The postive responses you give him earlier, like 'I'm glad to have you stay', are the kind of things that could be said by somebody who just sees him as a liked and useful companion. In that context, I don't think it's at all meant to be hurtful. As I said, I don't think he ever rejectst the warden's feelings for him.

[UpiH]

Nonvita wrote...
But it needs more Princess.

*Princess goes physical*

[Sannox]

UpiH wrote...

Nonvita wrote...
But it needs more Princess.

*Princess goes physical*

Oh, poor Princess - had all the pink leotards sold out?   What can be worse than having to defeat darkspawn in a colour that clashes with her hair? 

[Tellervo]

Sresla wrote...

Tellervo nails my sentiment.

It's really hard not to say something dirty.  But I won't.  I just want you to know I thought about it.  Really hard.

[UpiH]

Sannox wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Nonvita wrote...
But it needs more Princess.

*Princess goes physical*

Oh, poor Princess - had all the pink leotards sold out?   What can be worse than having to defeat darkspawn in a colour that clashes with her hair? 

Those darn gyms! Here's the real deal.

[Sannox]

UpiH wrote...

Sannox wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Nonvita wrote...
But it needs more Princess.

*Princess goes physical*

Oh, poor Princess - had all the pink leotards sold out?   What can be worse than having to defeat darkspawn in a colour that clashes with her hair? 

Those darn gyms! Here's the real deal.

Oh, that's much better!  Now Alistair is colour co-ordinated as well.  In fact I think he has out-pinked Princess.

Modifié par Sannox, 03 mai 2010 - 10:32 .

[soignee]

*tilts head to once side*

*looks again*

Ah, Zev thread.

[webbedfeet]

I don't have much to add, but ditto to UnDutchable and Sannox for my part. You nailed most of it. I have the distinct impression that Zevran was already wearing his heart on his sleeves (relatively speaking) at the time, and this is one of the few things he comes out and states that he really wants to. In the roundabout Zevran way. He never asks anything of you, all the way to the end. He won't ask it from you @ earring, and I suppose it comes down to this : He's offering up a vulnerable part of himself. You COULD easily crush him, and there are options for that. Of course you could also crush him at other times, but those are different in terms of how he's approaching you. And being Zevran, he throws up some defense so he won't fall too badly if you do, and you can either A) tell him 'stop being afraid, you idiot, this means something to us and you need to face what that really means', or tell him 'I'm not going to break your heart. See? I'm taking it. Look, I'm even happy! Now use your head and think about what I mean by this!' , which are both valid.I suppose I just play Wardens who're just as hilarious as sending mixed signals as Zev is.

Re Married in Antiva : I just don't think that, at that particular moment, Zevran has enough sense of self-worth to take that statement at face value. He's just Zevran! Just an assassin who happens to be awesome at sex! There's no way the Warden, of all people, could be serious about that! I can see why there would be serious Wardens who'd want to throw shoes at him for that interpretation, but it's possible to see where he comes from. I mean, you get opportunities to shore up his self-esteem at various points, but it's not until very near the conclusion of his romance that you can finally show him you *really* mean it in action. And I think he communicates better in actions, for all his awesome lines. He's the guy who never says the words, after all.

I also like Morrigan best out of all the other romance options, come to think of it.

Now if the subject has changed, don't mind me, I will just continue to lurk and do my leftover paperwork.

Modifié par webbedfeet, 03 mai 2010 - 10:49 .

[Creature 1]

webbedfeet wrote...
I can see why there would be serious Wardens who'd want to throw shoes at him for that interpretation, but it's possible to see where he comes from.

That's it, someone must write a fanfic with this scene and flying shoes. 

[ejoslin]

I'd like to point out that Zevran DOES ask something from the warden, though. Protection. He is convinced the Crows will kill him if he leaves before Taliesen is killed. Try asking him to leave before then, and he explains all that.

But that aside, if you reject the earring because you want it to mean something, you ARE telling him you want more from him, that the casual is just not enough any more.

I find his reaction to asking if you're married in Antiva (female PC only) very hurtful. It's a teasing comment, but it's also, to me, gauging what the gift means. Asking that DOES put out there, in a light way, how much commitment is implied by the gift. At least that was my impression.

Another thing about Zevran, I think he has a larger sense of self-worth than a lot of people think. I don't think he'd be surprised to have the warden love him. Zevran is convinced of his own excellence; he thinks he and the warden are in a class above most people.

Women and men falling in love with him is probably not a new thing to him, and is par for course in his job.

I base the comment above on this dialog:

Warden: You'd compare my life to yours?
Zevran: Are we so different, you and I? Buffeted by the winds of fate, brought to this point by both circumstance and excellence?

There are a few other occasions where he will let a warden know he has an extremely high opinion of himself.  Though he was crushed by the crow master who let him know that he too was nothing, I don't think that takes away from the fact that he knows he IS, for lack of a word, better than most people (smarter, more skilled in various things, etc).

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 11:07 .

[webbedfeet]

ejoslin wrote...

I'd like to point out that Zevran DOES ask something from the warden, though. Protection. He is convinced the Crows will kill him if he leaves before Taliesen is killed. Try asking him to leave before then, and he explains all that.

But that aside, if you reject the earring because you want it to mean something, you ARE telling him you want more from him, that the casual is just not enough any more.

I find his reaction to asking if you're married in Antiva (female PC only) very hurtful. It's a teasing comment, but it's also, to me, gauging what the gift means. Asking that DOES put out there, in a light way, how much commitment is implied by the gift. At least that was my impression.

Another thing about Zevran, I think he has a larger sense of self-worth than a lot of people think. I don't think he'd be surprised to have the warden love him. Zevran is convinced of his own excellence; he thinks he and the warden are in a class above most people.

Women and men falling in love with him is probably not a new thing to him, and is par for course in his job.

I base the comment above on this dialog:

Warden: You'd compare my life to yours?
Zevran: Are we so different, you and I? Buffeted by the winds of fate, brought to this point by both circumstance and excellence?

There are a few other occasions where he will let a warden know he has an extremely high opinion of himself.  Though he was crushed by the crow master who let him know that he too was nothing, I don't think that takes away from the fact that he knows he IS, for lack of a word, better than most people (smarter, more skilled in various things, etc).

I draw a distinction between asking things from you as The Grey Warden and asking things from you as you. It's likely a fine line, though. <---forum ate this sentence the first time around.

Ah, but that's confidence in his skills. In how he's led his life thus far. In his strength to overcome obstacles. In his ability to survive. In his rugged good looks and the ability to seduce his way to the heart of whoever he's talking to.

Confidence in his value as a person who is a target of affection? The kind of affection that, judging from what he does offer you in the end, is completely unconditional and unshakable? That he inspires that kind of devotion, since that's what he seems to define it as? I didn't see any indication in his dialogue beyond his normal bluffs that he has confidence in those, especially not after the Rinna incident. This is a YMMV thing, though, I should stress that. People get different things out of reading the same lines all the time, which is why we have English professors throwing thinly-veiled insults at each other in 'academic paper' form, and that's just how it reads to me. It does read differently for most people, and I'm quite fine with that.

Telling him you BOTH know what he's playing at and he needs to face his feelings like a man is a very valid response, and one that's also good for him in the long run. One might argue that it's better. I've just been playing people who'd be nice and retiring and go "Look, I'm taking it! I'm smiling! I'm blushing! Take a bloody hint already!" instead. (Of course, said people will also be VERY likely to throw a shoe. They can have short fuses with the wrong words.)

Modifié par webbedfeet, 03 mai 2010 - 11:23 .

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
Another thing about Zevran, I think he has a larger sense of self-worth than a lot of people think. I don't think he'd be surprised to have the warden love him. Zevran is convinced of his own excellence; he thinks he and the warden are in a class above most people.

Women and men falling in love with him is probably not a new thing to him, and is par for course in his job.

But those would be people that he did not respect.  Among his equals, only one person ever loved him and said it (RIP Rinna), although Taliesin might have loved him in his way I'm sure he never said so (although hunting Zevran down is kind of Taliesin's way of saying "I care").  From dialogues the Warden's clearly not swooning over him in a really obvious fashion, so given the fact that he doesn't class the Warden with those brainless idiots and the Warden isn't being really embarrassingly obvious, he might not believe he's really loved. 

[Aroihkin]

Sannox wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Sannox wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Nonvita wrote...
But it needs more Princess.

*Princess goes physical*

Oh, poor Princess - had all the pink leotards sold out?   What can be worse than having to defeat darkspawn in a colour that clashes with her hair? 

Those darn gyms! Here's the real deal.

Oh, that's much better!  Now Alistair is colour co-ordinated as well.  In fact I think he has out-pinked Princess.

I lol'd so hard, you even used the version from Charsen's Alicorn pic! XDD

[UpiH]

Aroihkin wrote...
...you even used the version from Charsen's Alicorn pic!

Yup, didn't get to ask Charsen for a higher resolution one, that one gets a bit pixelated.

I really should refrain from posting those comic reliefs, though, since some grown-ups seem to get upset by them and that's not my intention at all.

[soignee]

UpiH wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...
...you even used the version from Charsen's Alicorn pic!

Yup, didn't get to ask Charsen for a higher resolution one, that one gets a bit pixelated.

I really should refrain from posting those comic reliefs, though, since some grown-ups seem to get upset by them and that's not my intention at all.

how rude! Need moar derailment, imo <3

wouldn't be zev thread without it.... I'll even crack open the Trueblood gifs.

[ejoslin]

I've been thinking, what exactly DOES the warden offer Zevran. Is it really not much? I don't think so. The warden first of all gives Zevran not only a chance to live, but a chance at a new life. This is not a small thing at all. The warden takes the time to get to know him, befriends him, perhaps becomes his lover, perhaps chooses him over other lovers, and then actually frees him from his old life. All the while, accepting the relationship on Zevran's terms, according to rules he set down.

I think what Zevran doesn't have confidence in is his own feelings, not the feelings of others towards him. What he is feeling is new to him, he doesn't know how to react, how to show it, and is completely confused. But I just don't get the sense he's worried about being rejected or that the feelings aren't being reciprocated.

Zevran needs to be told outright that the feelings aren't returned in a breakup situation in order for him to think that they're not. Otherwise, if he breaks up with the warden for wanting a different level of commitment, he will say something like, "So what we feel for each other is not enough?"

There's a lot of caring in the relationship before you hit the point of the earring.

Zevran does have a lot of confidence in his skills, but it just seems to me that confidence extends to all areas of his life. He's amazing and strong and confident and the type of person who just rolls with the punches and makes the best out of everything. He's used to being desired and admired. He does talk about old scars which he ignores, about not being cold enough, and obviously, what he allowed to happen to Rinna and the crow master's reaction marked him deeply.

It's an amazing thing, how a character can be seen so differently.

Edit: There's just nothing in there that indicates to me that he's afraid that the warden doesn't return the feelings. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 11:52 .

[Mscheveous]

ejoslin wrote...

I'd like to point out that Zevran DOES ask something from the warden, though. Protection. He is convinced the Crows will kill him if he leaves before Taliesen is killed. Try asking him to leave before then, and he explains all that.

But that aside, if you reject the earring because you want it to mean something, you ARE telling him you want more from him, that the casual is just not enough any more.

I find his reaction to asking if you're married in Antiva (female PC only) very hurtful. It's a teasing comment, but it's also, to me, gauging what the gift means. Asking that DOES put out there, in a light way, how much commitment is implied by the gift. At least that was my impression.

Another thing about Zevran, I think he has a larger sense of self-worth than a lot of people think. I don't think he'd be surprised to have the warden love him. Zevran is convinced of his own excellence; he thinks he and the warden are in a class above most people.

Women and men falling in love with him is probably not a new thing to him, and is par for course in his job.

I base the comment above on this dialog:

Warden: You'd compare my life to yours?
Zevran: Are we so different, you and I? Buffeted by the winds of fate, brought to this point by both circumstance and excellence?

There are a few other occasions where he will let a warden know he has an extremely high opinion of himself.  Though he was crushed by the crow master who let him know that he too was nothing, I don't think that takes away from the fact that he knows he IS, for lack of a word, better than most people (smarter, more skilled in various things, etc).

I've been thinking, what exactly DOES the warden offer Zevran. Is it really not much? I don't think so. The warden first of all gives Zevran not only a chance to live, but a chance at a new life. This is not a small thing at all. The warden takes the time to get to know him, befriends him, perhaps becomes his lover, perhaps chooses him over other lovers, and then actually frees him from his old life. All the while, accepting the relationship on Zevran's terms, according to rules he set down.

I think what Zevran doesn't have confidence in is his own feelings, not the feelings of others towards him. What he is feeling is new to him, he doesn't know how to react, how to show it, and is completely confused. But I just don't get the sense he's worried about being rejected or that the feelings aren't being reciprocated.

Zevran needs to be told outright that the feelings aren't returned in a breakup situation in order for him to think that they're not. Otherwise, if he breaks up with the warden for wanting a different level of commitment, he will say something like, "So what we feel for each other is not enough?"

There's a lot of caring in the relationship before you hit the point of the earring.

Zevran does have a lot of confidence in his skills, but it just seems to me that confidence extends to all areas of his life. He's amazing and strong and confident and the type of person who just rolls with the punches and makes the best out of everything. He's used to being desired and admired. He does talk about old scars which he ignores, about not being cold enough, and obviously, what he allowed to happen to Rinna and the crow master's reaction marked him deeply.

It's an amazing thing, how a character can be seen so differently.
-----------------------------------------

Amen!

Modifié par Mscheveous, 03 mai 2010 - 11:53 .

[ejoslin]

UpiH wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...
...you even used the version from Charsen's Alicorn pic!

Yup, didn't get to ask Charsen for a higher resolution one, that one gets a bit pixelated.

I really should refrain from posting those comic reliefs, though, since some grown-ups seem to get upset by them and that's not my intention at all.

People will be upset if you stop   Sometimes text just doesn't parse well! 

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 11:53 .

[Elhanan]

As somewhat predicted, Zev made the first move towards my female Warden and the tent, and I told him in no uncertain terms this would never occur. This yielded only -13 Approval, as he might have been feeling a bit guilty.



OTOH, I hated breaking it off with Alistair, but it was too soon after the death of my Elven fiance, and I knew that he is destined for a different path. Plus, this gal will not take second place to anyone....