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What's the (Romantic) Appeal of Zevran?


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#25901
Sannox

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You all make such great points and I want to reply to them all endlessly, at length! This is so fascinating.
I went through the game once, picking out what the warden says and what Zevran says to see what he really does know about the warden's feelings. I might actually do that again and write it down this time. It was interesting.
@Webbedfeet I see that distinction too. The earring request is unique.
@Creature Yes.
@Ejoslin I agree with most of what you say there. I think the warden does offer a lot, but can offer that without being a lover. (After all there are benefits for the warden as well. Freeing Zevran from the Crows might be incidental to defending the party from Taliesin, for instance. Having Zevran on your team is beneficial regardless of your feelings for him. The big deal is really saying that you're glad to have him stay).
I may go and have a look at those dialogues again and get back to you.
Thank all for this most fascinating discussion!
Top of the page again.  What to choose, what to choose ..
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Modifié par Sannox, 03 mai 2010 - 12:14 .


#25902
ejoslin

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Elhanan wrote...

As somewhat predicted, Zev made the first move towards my female Warden and the tent, and I told him in no uncertain terms this would never occur. This yielded only -13 Approval, as he might have been feeling a bit guilty. 

OTOH, I hated breaking it off with Alistair, but it was too soon after the death of my Elven fiance, and I knew that he is destined for a different path. Plus, this gal will not take second place to anyone.... ;)

Ok? Yes, Zevran does approach the warden at 71+ adore. You had turned on the romance, and you found a ummm, not too terrible way to break up with him. It could have been avoided had you not turned on the romance to begin with, but you probably ended up with a net gain of approval.

In case you didn't know this, Alistair and Leliana both approach the warden at 91+ love. With Morrigan, it's far earlier, but then her relationship goes along different lines than the others.

Edit: Hah, I wanted to add THIS in case UpiH missed it on the last page.  So shameless copy and paste from another post!

UpiH wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...
...you even used the version from Charsen's Alicorn pic! 

Yup, didn't get to ask Charsen for a higher resolution one, that one gets a bit pixelated.

I really should refrain from posting those comic reliefs, though, since some grown-ups seem to get upset by them and that's not my intention at all.


People will be upset if you stop Image IPB  Sometimes text just doesn't parse well! Image IPB

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 12:10 .


#25903
ejoslin

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Sannox wrote...

You all make such great points and I want to reply to them all endlessly, at length! This is so fascinating.
I went through the game once, picking out what the warden says and what Zevran says to see what he really does know about the warden's feelings. I might actually do that again and write it down this time. It was interesting.
@Webbedfeet I see that distinction too. The earring request is unique.
@Creature Yes.
@Ejoslin I agree with most of what you say there. I think the warden does offer a lot, but can offer that without being a lover. (After all there are benefits for the warden as well. Freeing Zevran from the Crows might be incidental to defending the party from Taliesin, for instance. Having Zevran on your team is beneficial regardless of your feelings for him. The big deal is really saying that you're glad to have him stay).
I may go and have a look at those dialogues again and get back to you.
Thank all for this most fascinating discussion!


You have to also keep in mind that it is stated that there are conversations going on that are not in the game.  There are two occasions I can think of with Zevran where he and the warden agree to talk about something "later" but it's stated with other companions as well.  Leliana will talk about talking late into the night with a warden she's romancing, for instance.

I personally think choosing Zevran over someone else is a very strong indication that there's more going on than just sex for the warden.  But if you never romance someone else, you won't get that either.  Not all games are the same.

#25904
Sannox

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I just prefer to play it as there are no conversations of great significance going on outside the dialogues we're given (i.e. story-changing conversations).

If you choose the romance line when Zevran thanks you, he tells you that he had no idea that you felt the same about him. I don't feel I can imagine conversations which interfere with that. I know some people do (or maybe assume that he's lying). It just doesn't feel right to me.

After he refuses the tent, he still seems a little unsure of your feelings. (And that's even if you refuse the earring. It doesn't seem to make a difference). So I can't put in a conversation where the warden tells him about his/her feelings before the earring. I think it's offered as it would be to a warden who didn't love him.

Yes, I agree that choosing Zevran over someone else should be an indicator of your feelings.  (You might even have been in love with the other person, or they with you).    But he doesn't seem to take it that way.  (And of course, it doesn't follow that it IS.   You might feel nothing for the other person, or have romanced them by accident!).

Modifié par Sannox, 03 mai 2010 - 12:39 .


#25905
UpiH

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Who said, dwarves are clumsy? Slander and lies!



(The template wasn't very good to my liking, but some frames are ok, so I left it as it is.)

#25906
Sannox

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UpiH wrote...

Who said, dwarves are clumsy? Slander and lies!

(The template wasn't very good to my liking, but some frames are ok, so I left it as it is.)

Go dwarves!  I can just imagine the dwarves here doing some Irish dancing after a few pints.

#25907
ejoslin

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Sannox wrote...

I just prefer to play it as there are no conversations of great significance going on outside the dialogues we're given (i.e. story-changing conversations).

If you choose the romance line when Zevran thanks you, he tells you that he had no idea that you felt the same about him. I don't feel I can imagine conversations which interfere with that. I know some people do (or maybe assume that he's lying). It just doesn't feel right to me.

After he refuses the tent, he still seems a little unsure of your feelings. (And that's even if you refuse the earring. It doesn't seem to make a difference). So I can't put in a conversation where the warden tells him about his/her feelings before the earring. I think it's offered as it would be to a warden who didn't love him.

Yes, I agree that choosing Zevran over someone else should be an indicator of your feelings.  (You might even have been in love with the other person, or they with you).    But he doesn't seem to take it that way. 


Ah, you're right, I forgot about the romance starter line there (*sigh* And I JUST added that line into another line). 

BUT!  It's a romance starter line.  And it actually makes the most sense as a romance starter line.  It has a completely different meaning as such as well.  Interesting.  See, I never pick that line because of the friendship line, but if you use it to start a romance (as its intended I think), it just has an entirely different feeling.  He WOULD have no idea because there was no romance before. The VO note says, "surprised."  

But that's then wondering what was actually intended by the line.

I also don't think he sounds unsure when refusing to go to the tent.  I think he's refusing because he's confused about his feelings, not the warden's.  

Edit: In the vanilla game, the only time that line won't appear is when the relationship is permanently cut off.  In most circumstances, he WOULD be surprised (as in, if the relationship was anything but "love" or "adore").  

Second edit: I do think Zevran takes it that way when you choose him over someone else.   He's relieved and happy, he acknowledges that it was a difficult thing for you to do, he tries to cheer you up. I think he takes it as the warden saying they care. He may be surprised, happy, relieved that the warden does care for him more than the other person, but I don't see how that can't be taken anyway BUT that.  That's just RP though, I suppose.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 12:54 .


#25908
soignee

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UpiH wrote...

Who said, dwarves are clumsy? Slander and lies!

(The template wasn't very good to my liking, but some frames are ok, so I left it as it is.)


:D :D

In my head dwarf music is like drum and bass and/or some stonking 90s rave. With lyrium glowsticks. And some dude selling dodgy Deep Mushrooms on the dancefloor. MANNN I LOVE THIS SONG LET'S DANCE

*throws a light switch rave*
Image IPB

#25909
Aroihkin

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UpiH wrote...

Who said, dwarves are clumsy? Slander and lies!

(The template wasn't very good to my liking, but some frames are ok, so I left it as it is.)

When CZ as the Random Dude sidled in I about died.

I think it's the expression that does it.

#25910
sami jo

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@EJ re: Zev's confidence: There is a big difference between confidence in one's skills and abilities and confidence in a relationship. I am very confident in my academic abilities and my abilities as a scientist and professor. I *know* I am good in those areas and it isn't boasting to say that. I'm nowhere near as confident in a relationship. I know I have issues and I am used to keeping everyone at a distance. The result is that an outwardly confident and competent person turns into a squishy insecure emo mess in emotionally intimate situations far more often than I would like to admit. Zev is in an even worse place. No one has ever valued him as a person and not a tool to be used and discarded after use. He is familiar with being an object of desire and lust, but the key word there is object. I see his entire tap dance about the earring as an attempt to tell the Warden how much s/he means without exposing himself too much. He is leaving himself an out-- a way to say it doesn't mean much; and when pressed about its meaning he retreats to that out. Some of my characters are understanding of his insecurity. Some of them are ready to thwap him upside the head. His insecurity makes sense if the Warden has skirted the issue of a future together, but if your Warden has repeatedly told him s/he wants him with him/her, then the tap dance is frustrating. There are explicit lines in all of the other romances in which the Warden can make it clear that s/he wants a future together. With Zev, the only place to tell him how you feel is at the gates (and that was bugged. Thank you EJ <3333)



And now I need more coffee before another fun-filled day with the lunatics.

#25911
jenovan

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sami jo wrote...

@EJ re: Zev's confidence: There is a big difference between confidence in one's skills and abilities and confidence in a relationship. I am very confident in my academic abilities and my abilities as a scientist and professor. I *know* I am good in those areas and it isn't boasting to say that. I'm nowhere near as confident in a relationship. I know I have issues and I am used to keeping everyone at a distance. The result is that an outwardly confident and competent person turns into a squishy insecure emo mess in emotionally intimate situations far more often than I would like to admit. Zev is in an even worse place. No one has ever valued him as a person and not a tool to be used and discarded after use. He is familiar with being an object of desire and lust, but the key word there is object. I see his entire tap dance about the earring as an attempt to tell the Warden how much s/he means without exposing himself too much. He is leaving himself an out-- a way to say it doesn't mean much; and when pressed about its meaning he retreats to that out. Some of my characters are understanding of his insecurity. Some of them are ready to thwap him upside the head. His insecurity makes sense if the Warden has skirted the issue of a future together, but if your Warden has repeatedly told him s/he wants him with him/her, then the tap dance is frustrating. There are explicit lines in all of the other romances in which the Warden can make it clear that s/he wants a future together. With Zev, the only place to tell him how you feel is at the gates (and that was bugged. Thank you EJ )

And now I need more coffee before another fun-filled day with the lunatics.

*hands sami a coffee*

I'm just going to quote you, because you said everything I wanted to. XD  I think my Warden even uses the word "dance" in reference to Zev's constant evasions, perhaps more than once.

#25912
Sannox

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@ Sami Jo I think that on top of that he has been going through a huge change - something the warden doesn't see directly, but really he wasn't a terribly worthy, loveable person in the Crows. Not his fault, but that's how it was.
For me, the Rinna story has a huge impact. What he confesses there is enormous. It completely took me aback when I first heard it. And the more I listen to it, the worse it gets. He has good reason to not want to love, and possibly to not want somebody he cares about to love him.
I agree that he does kind of say what he feels with the earring. It's there if you want to take it that way. He tells you it means a lot.
The warden may have told him that she/he wants him to stay, but the terms are never quite clear. A warden who just liked the sex and company could easily get him to the earring stage with exactly the same dialogue as a warden who loved him deeply. It's ambiguous.

Modifié par Sannox, 03 mai 2010 - 01:18 .


#25913
ejoslin

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sami jo wrote...

@EJ re: Zev's confidence: There is a big difference between confidence in one's skills and abilities and confidence in a relationship. I am very confident in my academic abilities and my abilities as a scientist and professor. I *know* I am good in those areas and it isn't boasting to say that. I'm nowhere near as confident in a relationship. I know I have issues and I am used to keeping everyone at a distance. The result is that an outwardly confident and competent person turns into a squishy insecure emo mess in emotionally intimate situations far more often than I would like to admit. Zev is in an even worse place. No one has ever valued him as a person and not a tool to be used and discarded after use. He is familiar with being an object of desire and lust, but the key word there is object. I see his entire tap dance about the earring as an attempt to tell the Warden how much s/he means without exposing himself too much. He is leaving himself an out-- a way to say it doesn't mean much; and when pressed about its meaning he retreats to that out. Some of my characters are understanding of his insecurity. Some of them are ready to thwap him upside the head. His insecurity makes sense if the Warden has skirted the issue of a future together, but if your Warden has repeatedly told him s/he wants him with him/her, then the tap dance is frustrating. There are explicit lines in all of the other romances in which the Warden can make it clear that s/he wants a future together. With Zev, the only place to tell him how you feel is at the gates (and that was bugged. Thank you EJ

And now I need more coffee before another fun-filled day with the lunatics.


I definitely get that there is a difference between the two (oh, I do, trust me).  But I do NOT get that feeling from Zevran.

I don't know, maybe I am not articulating myself well, or maybe my view of the character is based on a few people I know IRL who were abused as children and, while having been marked, do not seem to have these issues with relationships as adults (and I'm talking about people with whom I'm very close, my husband being one of them, my oldest and probably closest friend another, not just people I know that seem ok).

I really get from Zevran that he is fighting falling in love.  Falling in love is dangerous, it will get him killed.  He was taught it was wrong to love, you cannot get close to people, etc.  He is supposed to be a remorseless killer.  It's what he was trained to be. But his feelings were not all driven out of him. So what happens when he finds himself falling in love?  He still wants to be close to the warden, obviously.  If he's in a relationship, he wants to stay with them even when he's free to go.  He's not running scared.  He's sorting things out for himself.

Edit: I'm not saying that he's all confidence and knows he won't be rejected.  I just don't think refusing the earring is a cruel thing to do -- I think the warden is telling him, play time is OVER.

I also think his dodginess about the earring is more to do with his own fears of commitment and still trying to keep the facade of "casual" up rather than a deep fear of rejection.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 01:26 .


#25914
jenovan

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Mini-necro!

TanithAeyrs wrote...

I love how Jenovan's Warden responds to Ignacio in her FF "Well Woven Net". That is how I would like my warden to be able to respond. I have no idea how hard that would be to mod or if Jenovan would let anyone play with the idea.

D'aww, thanks. XD;  I can't see how a mod like that would work (you'd have to wring some sort of appropriate reply from the NPC), but that'd be a great addition for dealing with any NPCs who give you too much lip. Image IPB

(Honestly, I added two chapters to the damn story to portray that reaction.  XD  Wanting to do that was what got me to write that part in the first place.)

I agree that being able to talk to Zevran a bit more in-depth about possibly working for the Crows would have been nice... And that goes for any companion, really, as someone(s) mentioned.   It's nice when they chime in, sometimes, but at other times you'd really expect them to, they don't. :|  I suppose the Trial of Crows is very minor in the list of plot points, and can happen whether or not you recruit Zevran, but...  yeah.

#25915
Sannox

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@ Ejoslin  That's one thing that I don't think flows well in those four conversations.

There's the conversation about Taliesin after you kill him.  You can say you're glad to have him stay, and he can promise to stay until one of you dies.     You can immediately go from that to the offer of the earring and again, he talks about his freedom from the Crows and does seem to be saying that you mean a lot to him (I know it's not direct enough for some but I think most would agree that the message is there). 

Then in the next conversation he thanks you for freeing him from the Crows - which doesn't quite flow.   He says that he hasn't thanked you, and yet the subject has kind of come up in the earring offer.  No big deal, but it doesn't quite follow.   Then the romance line sounds like something new, and yet the subject has come up, sort of, during the earring offer.  He has already made it clear that he thinks of you as more than a friend, if more than a friend means a deeper level of regard.   (In fact, the subject has come up much earlier, when he asks about the future and asks if there is a possibiliity of you being more than friends.   I take it he means it differently then). 

Then he refuses the tent, and then you can end up talking about how you feel about each other, and he explains his reticence.   Which is slightly odd just after the line in the previous conversation which he seemed surprised, happy and comfortable with. 

It's not a big gripe.   It's just that they feel very much like separate conversations rather than a progression through the relationship, if you know what I mean.  I don't have strong feelings about it.  

#25916
sami jo

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ejoslin wrote...

sami jo wrote...

@EJ re: Zev's confidence: There is a big difference between confidence in one's skills and abilities and confidence in a relationship. I am very confident in my academic abilities and my abilities as a scientist and professor. I *know* I am good in those areas and it isn't boasting to say that. I'm nowhere near as confident in a relationship. I know I have issues and I am used to keeping everyone at a distance. The result is that an outwardly confident and competent person turns into a squishy insecure emo mess in emotionally intimate situations far more often than I would like to admit. Zev is in an even worse place. No one has ever valued him as a person and not a tool to be used and discarded after use. He is familiar with being an object of desire and lust, but the key word there is object. I see his entire tap dance about the earring as an attempt to tell the Warden how much s/he means without exposing himself too much. He is leaving himself an out-- a way to say it doesn't mean much; and when pressed about its meaning he retreats to that out. Some of my characters are understanding of his insecurity. Some of them are ready to thwap him upside the head. His insecurity makes sense if the Warden has skirted the issue of a future together, but if your Warden has repeatedly told him s/he wants him with him/her, then the tap dance is frustrating. There are explicit lines in all of the other romances in which the Warden can make it clear that s/he wants a future together. With Zev, the only place to tell him how you feel is at the gates (and that was bugged. Thank you EJ

And now I need more coffee before another fun-filled day with the lunatics.


I definitely get that there is a difference between the two (oh, I do, trust me).  But I do NOT get that feeling from Zevran.

I don't know, maybe I am not articulating myself well, or maybe my view of the character is based on a few people I know IRL who were abused as children and, while having been marked, do not seem to have these issues with relationships as adults (and I'm talking about people with whom I'm very close, my husband being one of them, my oldest and probably closest friend another, not just people I know that seem ok).

I really get from Zevran that he is fighting falling in love.  Falling in love is dangerous, it will get him killed.  He was taught it was wrong to love, you cannot get close to people, etc.  He is supposed to be a remorseless killer.  It's what he was trained to be. But his feelings were not all driven out of him. So what happens when he finds himself falling in love?  He still wants to be close to the warden, obviously.  If he's in a relationship, he wants to stay with them even when he's free to go.  He's not running scared.  He's sorting things out for himself.


I should truncate the posts above, but I'm too tired to not muck it up. 
I agree that Zev is sorting out his feelings still, but the follow-up conversation in which he refuses the tent happens whether you refuse the earring or not.  I also get the sense that he is very insecure in that emotional role.  I take that from his reaction if the Warden is romancing two people (he seems to expect to be dumped), from the "what about love" conversation after the tent, from his reaction to the gloves and from the way he downplays his opinion.  He always predicates his comments with "it's just the opinion of an assassin" or something like it.  He doesn't know what to do with his feelings and he isn't used to having anyone actually love and value him.  He is afraid of what he is feeling, afraid of being rejected, afraid of being vulnerable and all of it leads to him dancing around expressing his emotions in a serious way. 

I don't know a single person with an abuse history who doesn't get a little wonky at times.  Some are incredibly good at recognizing when it's happening and adjusting, some are very good at hiding it (99% of my emo lunies are missed by pretty much everyone), but all of them get nailed now and then.  Zev has no experience in that area, so it's bound to take him a bit to adjust.  He's never even had a real friend.  He wants to seem confident and put together.  It was a matter of survival for him.  That doesn't mean he is.

#25917
ejoslin

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Sannox wrote...

@ Ejoslin  That's one thing that I don't think flows well in those four conversations.

There's the conversation about Taliesin after you kill him.  You can say you're glad to have him stay, and he can promise to stay until one of you dies.     You can immediately go from that to the offer of the earring and again, he talks about his freedom from the Crows and does seem to be saying that you mean a lot to him (I know it's not direct enough for some but I think most would agree that the message is there). 

Then in the next conversation he thanks you for freeing him from the Crows - which doesn't quite flow.   He says that he hasn't thanked you, and yet the subject has kind of come up in the earring offer.  No big deal, but it doesn't quite follow.   Then the romance line sounds like something new, and yet the subject has come up, sort of, during the earring offer.  He has already made it clear that he thinks of you as more than a friend, if more than a friend means a deeper level of regard.   (In fact, the subject has come up much earlier, when he asks about the future and asks if there is a possibiliity of you being more than friends.   I take it he means it differently then). 

Then he refuses the tent, and then you can end up talking about how you feel about each other, and he explains his reticence.   Which is slightly odd just after the line in the previous conversation which he seemed surprised, happy and comfortable with. 

It's not a big gripe.   It's just that they feel very much like separate conversations rather than a progression through the relationship, if you know what I mean.  I don't have strong feelings about it.  


There's a lot in the endgame that is rushed, and not only with Zevran's romance.  It probably is why Leliana's is the least broken -- it concludes the soonest.  

And you are right, he goes from thanking you for freeing him from Taliesen with the earring offer the first time to saying he hasn't thanked you.  It flows best if you're not in a romance with him until after he thanks you, actually. 

It wouldn't surprise me if the romance starter line actually was supposed to have a different branch if there was already a romance active (like most of his romance starter lines).  What makes the least sense, really, in his romance is if you don't have sex with him until after he declares his feelings.  Then you STILL get him being Mr. Casual and asking where you're going.  Though that has been established. 

So I suppose this can be written off as a rushed ending, much like Morrigan's ending (which is worse).

#25918
ejoslin

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sami jo wrote...

I should truncate the posts above, but I'm too tired to not muck it up. 
I agree that Zev is sorting out his feelings still, but the follow-up conversation in which he refuses the tent happens whether you refuse the earring or not.  I also get the sense that he is very insecure in that emotional role.  I take that from his reaction if the Warden is romancing two people (he seems to expect to be dumped), from the "what about love" conversation after the tent, from his reaction to the gloves and from the way he downplays his opinion.  He always predicates his comments with "it's just the opinion of an assassin" or something like it.  He doesn't know what to do with his feelings and he isn't used to having anyone actually love and value him.  He is afraid of what he is feeling, afraid of being rejected, afraid of being vulnerable and all of it leads to him dancing around expressing his emotions in a serious way. 

I don't know a single person with an abuse history who doesn't get a little wonky at times.  Some are incredibly good at recognizing when it's happening and adjusting, some are very good at hiding it (99% of my emo lunies are missed by pretty much everyone), but all of them get nailed now and then.  Zev has no experience in that area, so it's bound to take him a bit to adjust.  He's never even had a real friend.  He wants to seem confident and put together.  It was a matter of survival for him.  That doesn't mean he is.


I know two people with histories of horrible abuse that don't get wonky at times; both men are amazingly resilient people, though (I cannot say the same for either of their siblings -- they are all very messed up).  

I'm not sure where I implied that the refusing the earring or keeping it makes any difference in the tent refusal.  The only difference is whether he offers the earring as a token of affection and perhaps a proposal.

But you are right, he does maintain a distance, and he does expect to be dumped when he forces a choice.  Yet he feels the need to force that choice (which is why I think his feelings have been running deeper for a longer time).

I guess what stands out for me most about Zevran is the remarkable inner strength he has.  The training is supposed to kill off people who still feel, yet he not only survives but excels.  This is not a weak person in mind or body or spirit.  And he's aware of his strength.  He's extremely confident of his ability as a lover.  He is extremely confused about his own feelings towards the warden.  He is unsure of his standing in the relationship with the warden since he has never been close to someone in this way.

I'm not wording this well, I can see.  I just see his motives differently, I suppose, when offering the earring the way he does the first time.  I don't see it as an offer from someone who's sure he's going to be rejected.  And he certainly isn't taking it as a rejection of him or of the relationship if you turn the earring down.

When I think about it, I'm not actually sure why he offered the earring the first time.  He's probably telling himself it's as a thank you as he says.  But he's not asking for a commitment, he goes out of his way to make that clear (just like he goes out of his way to say he will not fall in love when asked about it earlier -- true or not, he is trying very hard to convince himself of this).  I think at that point he's still trying to convince himself that everything means less to him than it actually does.

Gah, I need more coffee because I KNOW I am not wording this well!

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 02:03 .


#25919
Creature 1

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Different question: What conclusions does Zevran draw when the Warden refuses the earring?

#25920
jenovan

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Creature 1 wrote...

Different question: What conclusions does Zevran draw when the Warden refuses the earring?

Oooh, good one. XD

Well.... Obviously, if the Warden refuses it on the grounds that it needs to mean something, Zevran does not conclude that the relationship should end.  (Isn't there another way you can refuse it, too, which also leads to Zev's "frustrating" line and won't turn off the romance?) 

I see the interpretation of this being just as personal as folks' reasons for accepting/not accepting...

For our "frustrated" Wardens, the ones who are weary of the dance, I would imagine Zevran comes away with the realization that he can't get away with skirting the issue anymore, and that (putting it a bit flippantly) it's time to put up or shut up.    It may force him to think very hard about exactly what he wants/expects out of the relationship at this point, which leads naturally (IMO) into his tent-refusal.

(Although, for a Warden who refuses the earring and feels bad about doing so, the tent-refusal may be a little alarming... Image IPB )

#25921
ejoslin

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Creature 1 wrote...

Different question: What conclusions does Zevran draw when the Warden refuses the earring?


That's a good question, because the romance plays out almost exactly the same whether you refuse it or not; the only difference is that the dialog allows you to go to a more spoken level of commitment if you refuse it.  What conclusions he draws would be entirely how someone RPs him.  My own feeling is it makes him realize that at least the warden wants more of a formal commitment and as everything else, his main concern is making the warden happy.  Maybe he also realizes that HE wants more of a formal commitment as well, though it takes him some time to sort it all out.  I don't think his feelings for the warden change at all, though.

Edit: Gah, jenovan says it better than I do for sure.  

And yes, you can refuse it in a way that is telling him you don't want it.  And it doesn't end the relationship at that point (if you refuse it at the second offer, it does end the relationship).

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 02:27 .


#25922
Aroihkin

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Am I the only one who thinks it's kind of hilarious when he snaps at you for being frustrating at that point? He essentially goes "What, you loot everything that isn't nailed down, but you don't want this? *verbally throws hands up in the air* Fine! Be that way!"

Meanwhile I'm apparently eyeing Taliesen's corpse, thinking "Hm, those gloves look salvageable..."

The first time I played that far I hadn't read any guides but I'd gone that path anyway, and I didn't think I'd really hurt/angered him. I actually thought he had a good point, even if it wasn't the point and he probably knew it, hence his frustration. XD

I can see taking the whole exchange any number of ways, but that was my own first impression. I still find that line pretty funny, because it's so amusingly true. Poor guy. XD

Modifié par Aroihkin, 03 mai 2010 - 02:32 .


#25923
ejoslin

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Poor guy is right! *grin* I don't find that line funny so much as just so HIM.



Then again, the way I see it, he had been setting down the rules and the pace of the relationship from the start, some of them not too consistently, and then suddenly he has the warden telling him, nope, not THIS time!



But I have a feeling I just have a really weird point of view.

#25924
sami jo

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jenovan wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Different question: What conclusions does Zevran draw when the Warden refuses the earring?

Oooh, good one. XD

Well.... Obviously, if the Warden refuses it on the grounds that it needs to mean something, Zevran does not conclude that the relationship should end.  (Isn't there another way you can refuse it, too, which also leads to Zev's "frustrating" line and won't turn off the romance?) 

I see the interpretation of this being just as personal as folks' reasons for accepting/not accepting...

For our "frustrated" Wardens, the ones who are weary of the dance, I would imagine Zevran comes away with the realization that he can't get away with skirting the issue anymore, and that (putting it a bit flippantly) it's time to put up or shut up.    It may force him to think very hard about exactly what he wants/expects out of the relationship at this point, which leads naturally (IMO) into his tent-refusal.

(Although, for a Warden who refuses the earring and feels bad about doing so, the tent-refusal may be a little alarming... Image IPB )


It was very alarming. :crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

#25925
Aroihkin

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ejoslin wrote...

Poor guy is right! *grin* I don't find that line funny so much as just so HIM.

Then again, the way I see it, he had been setting down the rules and the pace of the relationship from the start, some of them not too consistently, and then suddenly he has the warden telling him, nope, not THIS time!

But I have a feeling I just have a really weird point of view.

Yes, but I think he's funny, his sharp wit is part of why I like him, so that's the same thing to me. ;P I remember sitting back a bit from the screen, lolling, and going "Y'know, he does have a point there..." And then I cheerfully looted all the dead Crows around us. For great irony! I think I even lolled at my roommates about it.

If I'd interpreted that line as more seriously angry/hurt I'm sure it would have been more of a conundrum if I should have accepted it or not. As it was, it was like Zev being... Zev. I didn't figure he'd be annoyed any longer than the walk back to "camp". I rather hoped it would come up again, but I wasn't worried about there being angst over it.

My first reaction is probably yet another sign that I'm a bad romantic, though. XD I truly adore the guy, but I seriously cracked up in real life.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 03 mai 2010 - 03:03 .