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[ejoslin]

Here's an interesting script inconsistency (just deciding whether to add a new flag and a bit of code to make the earring conversation come after the thanking conversation -- probably not the best idea). ANYWAY, according to the script notes, you're not supposed to be able to invite Zevran to your tent until he hits "care." Yet the script calls it at "interested." I wonder who made that choice.


Edit: Dwarf kiss. I like the pulled back hair kiss now!



Second edit: Ok, in both the script and in the dialog, it says he's supposed to be at "care" before you can ask him. It's only in the code that it calls the condition at "interested."  I do wonder if it was a mistake, or if it was just a last minute change that wasn't noted.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 05:02 .

[soignee]

huzzah dwarf kisses! I am biased, of course. BUT HUZZAHHHHHHH

[Nonvita]

ejoslin wrote...

Second edit: Ok, in both the script and in the dialog, it says he's supposed to be at "care" before you can ask him. It's only in the code that it calls the condition at "interested."

Maybe it's just one of those things that got changed without the notes being updated. It does seem to fit his character more to go to the tent earlier, after all. Sometimes the notes are just old.

[Sannox]

I like that you're able to invite him early on. He practically offers as soon as you meet him, so it makes sense.
Also, I would hate to have to give him gifts to get him into bed.  One of the things that I really like about him is that he doesn't need gifts.

Modifié par Sannox, 03 mai 2010 - 05:05 .

[ejoslin]

Oh, I'm not changing anything. It's just that THIS looks like a coding mistake, not old comments. See, the way it looks like a lot of this was done was someone put in directions on how it was supposed to be coded, and then someone else entered the code.

Here are the coding directions ("//" denotes a comment in the scripting language)
//IF: APP_ZEVRAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVE
//and IF: APP_ZEVRAN_IS_CARE
//and IF: party is in camp

So someone was commenting there, yet the code itself calls when Zevran is interested. I just find it interesting. I actually think the code was a mistake. Seems odd that someone would put in the comment one thing, plus have it in the dialog scripting note, yet have it change like that.

It doesn't affect the way I play the game (I always wait for the invitation, so it happens at different times).

Plus, trust me on this, there are so many coding errors in the scripts it would make you cry. I'm not a programmer, and I caught a TON of them.  The majority of my fixes to the post-landsmeet conversation come from cleaning up alistair's scripts.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 05:25 .

[Eislyn]

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, I'm not changing anything. It's just that THIS looks like a mistake, not old comments. See, the way it looks like a lot of this was done was someone put in notes, and then someone else entered the code.

Here are the coding directions ("//" denotes a comment in the scripting language)
//IF: APP_ZEVRAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVE
//and IF: APP_ZEVRAN_IS_CARE
//and IF: party is in camp

So someone was commenting there, yet the code itself calls when Zevran is interested. I just find it interesting. I actually think the code was a mistake. Seems odd that someone would put in the comment one thing, plus have it in the dialog scripting note, yet have it change like that.

It doesn't affect the way I play the game (I always wait for the invitation, so it happens at different times).

Plus, trust me on this, there are so many coding errors in the scripts it would make you cry. I'm not a programmer, and I caught a TON of them.

Sounds familiarly EAxian, to me.  <_<

[Nonvita]

Sannox wrote...

I like that you're able to invite him early on. He practically offers as soon as you meet him, so it makes sense.
Also, I would hate to have to give him gifts to get him into bed.  One of the things that I really like about him is that he doesn't need gifts.

It definitely adds a nice contrast to the Alistair and Leliana relationships, and in a good way. There is the fact that it does not require gifts to get him into bed for one, which is certainly a nice feeling. There is also the fact that sex is far from the culmination of the relationship, whereas with Alistair and Leliana it feels more so like sex is the pinnacle. The people who complain that sex is glorified in all the relationships clearly haven't played Zev's. Yeah, sex is a part of the relationship, but it's extremely obvious that it becomes a very small part of the whole, despite it perhaps being more present in Zevran's romance than in others (though not necessarily so).

All I know is most of my characters are happy when Zev comes around and they can finally just have some fun without having to feel so uptight about being proper and all that. Especially considering you're all on a mission that will probably kill you, it seems silly to have to worry about things like love just to go for a romp in the sack. But then, love growing out of it in the end is perfectly fine as well.

[ejoslin]

Since the other romances seem to add something new at each level, it wouldn't surprise me if Zevran's was supposed to go like this:

26+ Interested, able to ask him about his sexual history
51+ Care, able to ask him to the tent
71+ Adore, Jealousy talk/proposition
91+ Love, Tent refusal/declaration

Makes me wonder if it was changed because there was a problem with his "care" flag.

Edit: Again, I'm not changing anything.  But the way it is written out, it looks like a coding error.  If you saw these scripts, you would understand what I mean -- no one was going back and double checking things and making those types of changes.  Scripting notes are in there, usually followed, sometimes with code that can't work, sometimes not completed.  It's incredible.

Second edit: Actually, looking at the script further, I may be wrong.  It also says you're supposed to ask about his sexual history at "care" as well.  I wonder who decided to drop it down to interested.  Hmmmmm.  Well, seems an odd thing to go back and change, when there were so many programming errors in other places that you'd think they'd want to change those instead!

I do think there's a possibility that the "care" flag has issues.  Many flags do.  It would explain the change.

YET ANOTHER EDIT!

I actually think the order would be better as:

26+ Interested, able to ask him to the tent
51+ Care, able to ask him about his sexual history
71+ Adore, Jealousy talk/proposition
91+ Love, Tent refusal/declaration

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 09:02 .

[Creature 1]

Elps wrote...
So, then we come to The Crows. His training involved torture but when he relives it in The Fade he is unwilling to have it interrupted - he has to prove he is strong. Theres a sense of him having pride in being strong and in joining the Crows. I know someone who went through training in an elite agency and what little he said about it sure would have most people convinced it was torture (it involved taking him to breaking point mentally & physically). I suspect that most covert operators today go through very grueling training.

Gamer consensus is they didn't let the kids sit around learning reading, writing, and arithmetic from the time they were purchased (in Zevran's case 7) and the time they reached an age to give informed consent to extreme training methods. 

[Eislyn]

Elps wrote...

I know I am going to be provocative here, but I am interested in why so many of you think Zevran has been abused.

Get ready to vehemently disagree...

Zev had a hard childhood sure, but at least he was clothed, fed, and had a roof over his head. Zev says it wasn't so bad and I believe him. City Elves can fare far worse than this and he is, after all, a city elf. Then he was sold - ok, thats abhorent to us but slavery is practised in Thedas (as we see in the Alienage) even though it is technically illegal.  

So, then we come to The Crows. His training involved torture but when he relives it in The Fade he is unwilling to have it interrupted - he has to prove he is strong. Theres a sense of him having pride in being strong and in joining the Crows. I know someone who went through training in an elite agency and what little he said about it sure would have most people convinced it was torture (it involved taking him to breaking point mentally & physically). I suspect that most covert operators today go through very grueling training. 

His Crow boss treats him as if he had no worth. However, he knows this is what the guy is deliberately doing and, as an elf, this would be pretty much standard. Queen Anora treats elves like dirt too. From the Crows we get to see in the game, all the bosses are human but the trainers (torturers) are elves. I keep pausing to look at ears but can't tell how many Crow assassins are elves/human in the couple of encounters in the game   I guess what I am saying is that I feel Zevran had a really hard life but he survived the life he was born into and I don't see it as him being abused (at least, no more abused than any city elf in Thedas). Not having a choice makes a difference but, even so, he was still luckier than the other elven boys who were not bought.

What bothers me, is that he was sold from the ****house at age seven.  According to him, "he was raised by ****s", and  "sex is best when done well".  How does a seven year old learn all this?  Not to mention that most "pet" elves are bought young.  Disturbing, when you think about it.

As for the Crows, perhaps a bit of Stockhom Syndrome? 

[Sannox]

@Nonvita Yes. Life as the warden is bloody and violent. I'm sure I would want some loving in the evenings, without having to coax somebody into it. And it seems to me a more natural progression to start that way then let the love develop. Or more realistic, anyway.

@Ejoslin That makes sense that there would be something new at each level, but I still prefer the 'mistake'! Asking about his sexual history should go along with asking him to the tent (otherwise it's not really your business, I suppose. Although you could still ask just out of curiousity).

I'd actually even like the opportunity to ask him sooner. He acts as if he's willing from the beginning. It would be a judgment call by the warden whether it's safe to ask him before talking to him more first, but some more reckless characters might give it a whirl. It might be a touch to early for him to start falling in love, but why not?

[Creature 1]

Eislyn wrote...

As for the Crows, perhaps a bit of Stockhom Syndrome? 

Heck yes.  With the way the recruits were treated they probably were falling over themselves to demonstrate to the Crows that they had what it took to be a Crow, just so they wouldn't end up being the target dummy during the next stabbing practice.  After a few years of that pretty much anyone would develop Stockholm Syndrome. 

[ejoslin]

You know, it's an interesting thing, my views on Zevran's childhood would probably not be agreed upon by most people either. I think he was abused and tortured, and he does refer to things as "old scars" but he makes a few comments which has me think he was treated better as a crow than a wh*orehouse boy, and he takes a LOT of pride in surviving what he did.



He had a better life than most elves, and he's very aware of this.



Earlier I was saying I do not believe he has self-esteem issues. At all. I do believe he does not trust anyone until the warden (as friend or lover). Yet he is very quick to trust a warden who is his lover, which is interesting. He may not be able to put things into words, but he definitely trusts a warden he adores as much as he does a friend warden post Taliesen.



What I really don't understand is why. It's the trust he has in the warden which is why I can't believe that the sex for him is casual once he hits adore. He forces a warden to choose between him and someone else at 71+ at that level, but once you choose him, he is willing to talk about that last mission.



To me, that shows how he views the relationship more than anything. It's not his words, but it's how much of himself he's willing to share. I think the first offer of the earring is just one more thing along those lines.



ANYWAY! I've gone on rambling tangent again which I'm sure makes no sense to anyone but me.

[Minaleth]

Eislyn wrote...
As for the Crows, perhaps a bit of Stockhom Syndrome?  

Imho that is more complicated, because it's an organization and thus provides a feeling that he belongs somewhere, he said he was proud to do his job and he was good at it and he also mentioned the rewards and other benefits (like social status) gained by being a Crow. I think there is a lot to cling to despite of the fact that you are expendible and have no choice to be elsewhere.

[Herr Uhl]

Elps wrote...


That might be so, but The Fade shows his final initiation before becoming a full-fledged Crow with him demonstrating his strength of will. For all we know, that may be the only extreme training. Somewhere along the line he was educated, trained in politics, assassin skills, seduction, and all the other things he is so skilled at. None of it diminished his sense of self-worth and he is very proud of being a Crow (despite being VERY happy to be free of them).

When does Zevran show that he is skillful at politics?

[ejoslin]

Elps wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Elps wrote...
So, then we come to The Crows. His training involved torture but when he relives it in The Fade he is unwilling to have it interrupted - he has to prove he is strong. Theres a sense of him having pride in being strong and in joining the Crows. I know someone who went through training in an elite agency and what little he said about it sure would have most people convinced it was torture (it involved taking him to breaking point mentally & physically). I suspect that most covert operators today go through very grueling training.

Gamer consensus is they didn't let the kids sit around learning reading, writing, and arithmetic from the time they were purchased (in Zevran's case 7) and the time they reached an age to give informed consent to extreme training methods. 

That might be so, but The Fade shows his final initiation before becoming a full-fledged Crow with him demonstrating his strength of will. For all we know, that may be the only extreme training. Somewhere along the line he was educated, trained in politics, assassin skills, seduction, and all the other things he is so skilled at. None of it diminished his sense of self-worth and he is very proud of being a Crow (despite being VERY happy to be free of them).

You know, one thing that struck me about Zevran was his education.  He's literate.  He's very savvy.  He very much was trained to blend in everywhere.  

He does talk about the torture though, and it was more than just being put on the rack (which is horrible enough).  Here's the toolset line:

Zevran: You mean you want to hear about the grueling training? Being locked in an oubliette for weeks at a time? The slavery? The festering injuries? Or are we seeking something more glamorous? (wry wit)
Warden: Was it really so terrible?
Zevran: Oh those things never happened to me. (he's joking -- and lying, as they certainly did)

Edit:

Herr Uhl wrote...
When does Zevran show that he is skillful at politics?

I think it is more his very fast and correct assessment of what was happening in Orzammar.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mai 2010 - 06:02 .

[Eislyn]

ejoslin wrote...

You know, it's an interesting thing, my views on Zevran's childhood would probably not be agreed upon by most people either. I think he was abused and tortured, and he does refer to things as "old scars" but he makes a few comments which has me think he was treated better as a crow than a wh*orehouse boy, and he takes a LOT of pride in surviving what he did.

He had a better life than most elves, and he's very aware of this.

Earlier I was saying I do not believe he has self-esteem issues. At all. I do believe he does not trust anyone until the warden (as friend or lover). Yet he is very quick to trust a warden who is his lover, which is interesting. He may not be able to put things into words, but he definitely trusts a warden he adores as much as he does a friend warden post Taliesen.

What I really don't understand is why. It's the trust he has in the warden which is why I can't believe that the sex for him is casual once he hits adore. He forces a warden to choose between him and someone else at 71+ at that level, but once you choose him, he is willing to talk about that last mission.

To me, that shows how he views the relationship more than anything. It's not his words, but it's how much of himself he's willing to share. I think the first offer of the earring is just one more thing along those lines.

ANYWAY! I've gone on rambling tangent again which I'm sure makes no sense to anyone but me.

This!  When he asks if you'd like to hear about the oubliette, the festering wounds, etc, he remarks "oh, that didn't happen to me".  He hedges at the beginning, until his trust in the warden builds enough to reveal more, culminating with the "Last Mission before Ferelden". 

edit:  by ejoslin! 

Modifié par Eislyn, 03 mai 2010 - 06:03 .

[soignee]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Elps wrote...


That might be so, but The Fade shows his final initiation before becoming a full-fledged Crow with him demonstrating his strength of will. For all we know, that may be the only extreme training. Somewhere along the line he was educated, trained in politics, assassin skills, seduction, and all the other things he is so skilled at. None of it diminished his sense of self-worth and he is very proud of being a Crow (despite being VERY happy to be free of them).

When does Zevran show that he is skillful at politics?

The Bhelen observation in the Diamond Quarter is the one that comes off the top of my head, I think Gilsa datamined it from the toolset in the dwarf thread a few pages back.

[Creature 1]

Elps wrote...
That might be so, but The Fade shows his final initiation before becoming a full-fledged Crow with him demonstrating his strength of will. For all we know, that may be the only extreme training. Somewhere along the line he was educated, trained in politics, assassin skills, seduction, and all the other things he is so skilled at. None of it diminished his sense of self-worth and he is very proud of being a Crow (despite being VERY happy to be free of them).

A good way to make people proud of being in an organization is to teach them that those outside the organization are to be despised. 

[Eislyn]

Creature 1 wrote...

Elps wrote...
That might be so, but The Fade shows his final initiation before becoming a full-fledged Crow with him demonstrating his strength of will. For all we know, that may be the only extreme training. Somewhere along the line he was educated, trained in politics, assassin skills, seduction, and all the other things he is so skilled at. None of it diminished his sense of self-worth and he is very proud of being a Crow (despite being VERY happy to be free of them).

A good way to make people proud of being in an organization is to teach them that those outside the organization are to be despised. 

Not to mention the fact that he was a bought and paid for slave.  I would assume with regards to the Crow's, it either capitulate or die.  This doesn't leave much room for choice, if you want to survive. 

[Herr Uhl]

soignee wrote...

The Bhelen observation in the Diamond Quarter is the one that comes off the top of my head, I think Gilsa datamined it from the toolset in the dwarf thread a few pages back.

I don't see how that shows that he has an political education. Who would aid your cause better in a war, someone who is hesitant and compromises at every turn or someone that rules with an iron fist?

It isn't being skilled at politics, it's common sense.

[UpiH]

One Genie Flew Out of the Teapot