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[Tellervo]

Elps wrote...

DA broke all the stereotypes and its just WRONG to try to make elves/dwarves/whoever fit a mold that doesn't exist in the game.

I don't see Zevran as being in the slightest bit effeminate. He is all guy! Angles, muscles, the strength to take on ogres and dragons and win. I even love his lines that show a care-worn face with a bit of maturity yet most of the fan art I've seen portray him as a smooth-skinned girly boy. The real Zev would never pass in a line up of Thai cross-dressers. And putting him in Franknfurter's corset? YUCK!

Do you have to be so insulting about it?  I think we're almost universally agreeing that we like a masculine Zevran, and that's how he really ought to be portrayed.  The argument seems to be that even a masculine guy can pull it off, and it fits Zevran's fun, flirty aspects of his personality to not find the idea abhorrent--maybe even momentarily entertaining.

Edit for page topper:


Yeah, I'd do that, too.  To either of them.

Modifié par Tellervo, 04 mai 2010 - 03:58 .

[SurrealSadi]

Tellervo wrote...

Elps wrote...

DA broke all the stereotypes and its just WRONG to try to make elves/dwarves/whoever fit a mold that doesn't exist in the game.

I don't see Zevran as being in the slightest bit effeminate. He is all guy! Angles, muscles, the strength to take on ogres and dragons and win. I even love his lines that show a care-worn face with a bit of maturity yet most of the fan art I've seen portray him as a smooth-skinned girly boy. The real Zev would never pass in a line up of Thai cross-dressers. And putting him in Franknfurter's corset? YUCK!

Do you have to be so insulting about it?  I think we're almost universally agreeing that we like a masculine Zevran, and that's how he really ought to be portrayed.  The argument seems to be that even a masculine guy can pull it off, and it fits Zevran's fun, flirty aspects of his personality to not find the idea abhorrent--maybe even momentarily entertaining.

Thank you for explaining that so eloquently, Tellervo! I may be a writer, but at times I cannot convey the reasonings for things that randomly pop up in my head!

[ejoslin]

I think it's not the cross dressing so much as the feminization (is that even a word). I really can see him glaming it up, but not it being an integral part of his personality. It's not only the outfit that makes him look not-masculine in a lot of the portrayals. It's the softening of the features, the smoothing of the skin.

And you know, I have no problem if that's how someone sees him! But I sure don't see him that way.

*sigh* And now I'm at the point that no matter I'll just sound like an idiot (I know this). Now it's getting onto dicey territory because I will sound like a bigot no matter WHAT I say. So I say nothing more

But I still don't see him as anything girly!

Edit: I know I said something about it being past my bedtime.  I'm going to do massive ninja editing tomorrow I'm SURE!  And deny, deny, deny! :innocent:

Second edit: Ah ha, the ninja editing HAS begun!

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mai 2010 - 03:59 .

[Gilsa]

Tellervo wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

Heh. I was just watching Rocky Horror Picture Show and I was actually thinking of drawing Zev in one of these garter outfits that they all wear on the stage at the end. He would rock it!

Is this close enough?

http://fc07.devianta...s_by_tahara.jpg

The vibe I was thinking more of is when they're all on stage wearing the same outfit. Just picture Alistair as Brad where he's fumbling around in those heels. Zev would be way more in control of the stage. Morrigan and Leliana could fill in for the two girls very nicely. All four of them at the same time is a little too ambitious for me. I did do a RHPS fanart as a Halloween gift many years ago for a friend of mine who absolutely loved the movie. (She played an EQ elf.) I was just watching the movie and thinking outloud about who from the current game would fill those roles nicely.



BTW, Oghren would rock Meatloaf's role on that sweet hog ride.

[SurrealSadi]

*chuckles, offering Ejoslin a hug* It'll be okay, I'm sure!



I don't see his maybe playfully crossdressing, as either a tease or for fun, as feminizing him. The people who hear "Elf" and "bi" that automatically assume he's effeminate are the ones that annoy me. My best friend is bi. She tells all her friends that don't know that she is, and that she won't hit on them unless it's playful, or a joke. But she's neither the "stereotypical" bulldyke, nor the girly girl. Yes, she wears dresses and make-up, but she's not the prissy girly girl. She's... tomboy-girly.

[Tellervo]

The word choice--"Thai crossdressers" and such, going to extremes with your example there. The language is very reactionary. It doesn't sound like you have a problem with crossdressing or crossdressers, but that the idea of portraying Zevran as such is in some way blasphemous, and would put him in these extreme categories.



I agree that a lot of people girl up Zev, and it is a little "yuck", and I really don't want to see him in Frankenfurter's outfit either.

[Gilsa]

Whoah, looks it touched a nerve for some people. I wasn't talking about Zevran as a cross-dresser as much as I was talking about pulling off a fun role. It's no different than putting Zevran in a Zorro costume or a Superman outfit. It just happened to be the movie I was watching at the time, nothing more.

[Tellervo]

Gilsa wrote...

Tellervo wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

Heh. I was just watching Rocky Horror Picture Show and I was actually thinking of drawing Zev in one of these garter outfits that they all wear on the stage at the end. He would rock it!

Is this close enough?

http://fc07.devianta...s_by_tahara.jpg

The vibe I was thinking more of is when they're all on stage wearing the same outfit. Just picture Alistair as Brad where he's fumbling around in those heels. Zev would be way more in control of the stage. Morrigan and Leliana could fill in for the two girls very nicely. All four of them at the same time is a little too ambitious for me. I did do a RHPS fanart as a Halloween gift many years ago for a friend of mine who absolutely loved the movie. (She played an EQ elf.) I was just watching the movie and thinking outloud about who from the current game would fill those roles nicely.

>snip<

BTW, Oghren would rock Meatloaf's role on that sweet hog ride.

I'm pretty sure I saw this as a fanfic somewhere.

[ejoslin]

Edit: you know, I should just leave this whole subject alone until tomorrow.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mai 2010 - 04:16 .

[Gilsa]

BTW, I sympathize if people don't like the idea of Zevran being portrayed as a crossdresser, but in a thread where Alistair gets treated like a subserviant and that Alicorn picture gets tossed around for fun, it's hard to know where the line is.

[ejoslin]

Gilsa wrote...

Whoah, looks it touched a nerve for some people. I wasn't talking about Zevran as a cross-dresser as much as I was talking about pulling off a fun role. It's no different than putting Zevran in a Zorro costume or a Superman outfit. It just happened to be the movie I was watching at the time, nothing more.

oooh, no, don't think I was reacting to you.  I was being a bit playful I thought, and instead sounded like an idiot, which sparked this. 

Edit: I was reacting more to a lot of the recent fan pictures I've seen portraying him as very feminine.  I just don't see it at ALL.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mai 2010 - 04:17 .

[Tellervo]

Elps wrote...

I'm sorry if that offended you. In Thailand, some of the most drop-down gorgeously beautiful women are CD men who, once they get off stage, are men again (not transgender, just cross-dressing and playing the part for awhile). Since, in my part of the world, Thai cross-dressers are usually used as examples of the ultimate pass that anyone trying to pass as a woman aspires to emulate, I didn't think my comment would be misintrepreted. What was intended was my opinion that in a line-up of cross-dressers who look entirely female, Zevran would not pass.

Everyone is entitled to their fantasies, of course. I just happen to like Zev as he is in the game, masculine looks and all.

Hm.  In my little corner, the "Thai girly-boy" has different connotations, very negative sexual ones.  It's natural that we would misunderstand each other.

Personally, I think Zev in a dress is kind of awful.  I get a brief lul out of it, but it really doesn't do anything for me.  Now, Alistair in a dress...

[Gilsa]

*dwarven fistbumps all around*



No harm, no foul. We all cool. Bowing out as I have dwarven dialogue to type up from the toolset and dwarven artwork I need to finish by this weekend. Later, folks.

[ejoslin]

Tellervo wrote...

Elps wrote...

I'm sorry if that offended you. In Thailand, some of the most drop-down gorgeously beautiful women are CD men who, once they get off stage, are men again (not transgender, just cross-dressing and playing the part for awhile). Since, in my part of the world, Thai cross-dressers are usually used as examples of the ultimate pass that anyone trying to pass as a woman aspires to emulate, I didn't think my comment would be misintrepreted. What was intended was my opinion that in a line-up of cross-dressers who look entirely female, Zevran would not pass.

Everyone is entitled to their fantasies, of course. I just happen to like Zev as he is in the game, masculine looks and all.

Hm.  In my little corner, the "Thai girly-boy" has different connotations, very negative sexual ones.  It's natural that we would misunderstand each other.

Personally, I think Zev in a dress is kind of awful.  I get a brief lul out of it, but it really doesn't do anything for me.  Now, Alistair in a dress...

Alicorn is better...

[Tellervo]

ejoslin wrote...

Alicorn is better...

Canned Alicorn is best.

[ejoslin]

Tellervo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Alicorn is better...

Canned Alicorn is best.

Agreed!  Night night!

[SurrealSadi]

ejoslin wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

*chuckles, offering Ejoslin a hug* It'll be okay, I'm sure!

I don't see his maybe playfully crossdressing, as either a tease or for fun, as feminizing him. The people who hear "Elf" and "bi" that automatically assume he's effeminate are the ones that annoy me. My best friend is bi. She tells all her friends that don't know that she is, and that she won't hit on them unless it's playful, or a joke. But she's neither the "stereotypical" bulldyke, nor the girly girl. Yes, she wears dresses and make-up, but she's not the prissy girly girl. She's... tomboy-girly.

The area I live in, it's different because our major employer offers full benefits to the partners in same sex relationships, so aside from it being an utra-liberal university town, there are actually financial incentives for same-sex couples to live openly as such. It's just not something I even notice, really.  I've lived here all my life, and I often forget that things I take for granted are unusual in most other areas.

Cross-dressing, however, is not related to homosexuality.  A dear friend of mine, after her first divorce, dated a guy who was into dressing like a maid with 6 inch heels.  I don't know if they ever had sex, but her house was the cleanest I've ever seen for the year they were together!  

I just honestly do not get why so many people see Zevran as so feminine.  His voice is deep, his face and mannerisms strike me as very masculine.  He does hit on a male warden, but I don't see that as feminine either.  I just don't equate gay with feminine, bi with feminine, elf with feminine (*grin*) but many people apparently do.  Or there's something I just am NOT seeing.

Very lucky! I live in a predominately Italian-Catholic town. I was raised Catholic, but I'm now non-denominational Christian. I worship God and Christ in my own way, and bugger off to Catholic Dogma. ~*~NO OFFENSE TO ANY CATHOLICS IN THE THREAD!!!~*~ Most people here don't notice though, because how does one "look" not Catholic? People have preconceptions about how someone should "look" based on their sexual preferences. It pisses a lot of my friends off, because we're ALL open-minded. 

Oh, cross-dressing is not limited to "alternate lifestyles". I would never think it was, lest I get the snot beat out of me by my friends. 

If Zev is effeminate, I'm the Queen of Sheba. Seriously. I'd walk into any thread claiming he is and demand proof.

[Aroihkin]

@ Tell on last page -- Yay fanart dump! I agree, it's what I kind of needed too. Seeing someone else post Alley/Zev was neat too, and the ever-awesome Chains picture with the tattoooooos~

@ Entire crossdressing discussion -- lol. Is this where I get shot for saying I've been reaaaaaally wanting to draw Zevran as a Whirling Dervish almost since I "met" him in the game? Although it's not crossdressing, as most of those dancers are men -- including the one in that video. It's a skirt, though. Lots of them, in fact!

Edit: And I'd like to think it can be agreed upon that I make him look like himself, despite wanting to put him in a bunch of colorful skirts, scarves, and a nice vest.

Here's another neat video with slightly better footage-quality: round and round and round he goes... when he stops, nobody knows...

Although I've also been tempted to use some of the male Dervish armor in Guild Wars. Some of those "skirts" have lots of sharp bladed bits hanging off them!

Modifié par Aroihkin, 04 mai 2010 - 04:43 .

[Tellervo]

Aroihkin wrote...

@ Tell on last page -- Yay fanart dump! I agree, it's what I kind of needed too. Seeing someone else post Alley/Zev was neat too, and the ever-awesome Chains picture with the tattoooooos~
@ Entire crossdressing discussion -- lol. Is this where I get shot for saying I've been reaaaaaally wanting to draw Zevran as a Whirling Dervish almost since I "met" him in the game? Although it's not crossdressing, as most of those dancers are men -- including the one in that video. It's a skirt, though. Lots of them, in fact.

I approve of this +a lot.  Not so colorful, though.  An actual Dervish.


@Elps: don't edit it.  Let it stand.  It clearly didn't mean what I took it as, and you shouldn't be punished for using language familiar to you.

Modifié par Tellervo, 04 mai 2010 - 04:43 .

[TanithAeyrs]

Skirts can be very masculine - just look at the kilt.

[Tellervo]

TanithAeyrs wrote...

Skirts can be very masculine - just look at the kilt.

Don't get me started on kilts.  I won't stop.  I like 'em traditional, though.