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[Aroihkin]

Elps wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

@ Tell on last page -- Yay fanart dump! I agree, it's what I kind of needed too. Seeing someone else post Alley/Zev was neat too, and the ever-awesome Chains picture with the tattoooooos~
@ Entire crossdressing discussion -- lol. Is this where I get shot for saying I've been reaaaaaally wanting to draw Zevran as a Whirling Dervish almost since I "met" him in the game? Although it's not crossdressing, as most of those dancers are men -- including the one in that video. It's a skirt, though. Lots of them, in fact.

Ooh... careful! Whirling Dervishes are not dancers - they are religious men (like monks) who take part in the whirling ritual as part of their faith. Publicly posting Zev in Dervish clothes wouldn't offend as many people as would putting him in the Pope's robes, but playing with religion is risky. I'm pretty sure nobody in this thread would complain but it is an international forum and poking fun at religion may not be wise. Your call... 

It wouldn't be me poking fun, I think that sh*t is awesome.

And yeah, the dancing isn't limited to the religion IIRC, so I probably shouldn't have used that term, but it's the term I hear the most for it. And it's what inspired the Guild Wars "Dervishes".

[TanithAeyrs]

Tellervo wrote...

TanithAeyrs wrote...

Skirts can be very masculine - just look at the kilt.

Don't get me started on kilts.  I won't stop.  I like 'em traditional, though.

Of course, no fun any other way.

[SurrealSadi]

Tellervo wrote...

TanithAeyrs wrote...

Skirts can be very masculine - just look at the kilt.

Don't get me started on kilts.  I won't stop.  I like 'em traditional, though.

Kilts on guys look good, but on certain guys it's f*cking hot.

[Tellervo]

My partner is Scotch-Irish...  kilts... 

On the topic of the Dervish thing... As Aro said, GW used the Dervish as inspiration for a class (though it is treated as a religious matter in game, as well, and rather respectfully).  I don't recall hearing much stink over it, or over use of yogic practices in inspiration for the Ritualist.

[Tellervo]

Elps wrote...

It's something I didn't get about the game. If Ferelden is based on medieval Scotland why aren't there any kilts to put on our characters?
 

This.  I want kilts.  I want a kilt on my Warden.  Someone make this happen.  I'll give you a thousand internets.  It doesn't have to be in game--I'll take shiatty photochop.

Modifié par Tellervo, 04 mai 2010 - 05:05 .

[SurrealSadi]

Tellervo wrote...

Elps wrote...

It's something I didn't get about the game. If Ferelden is based on medieval Scotland why aren't there any kilts to put on our characters?
 

This.  I want kilts.  I want a kilt on my Warden.  Someone make this happen.  I'll give you a thousand internets.

I want a kilt on Zev..... And Riordan.

Oh god, could you imagine a kilt on TEAGAN?!

[Aroihkin]

Tellervo wrote...

I approve of this +a lot.  Not so colorful, though.  An actual Dervish.

Nah, I wouldn't be going for cultural accuracy or I'd set myself up for all sorts of drama. I'd go off the tourist-trap dancing that isn't even necesarilly done by bonafide Dervishes.

And I could make lots of colors look good, damnit. Dark gemstone tones and gold accents would suit him fine.

Buuut it'd be a pretty agressive picture to draw, and I'm already being told I'd be poking fun at a religion, so it's just as well if the picture simply lives on in my head. In all its spinning colorful glory.

Still, the point is skirts can work on men who are perfectly masculine looking. Even layered skirts. And scarves. When I look at the guys in those videos, even the colorful not-even-always-Dervish ones in the "tourist traps", I don't think "wow, he looks girly", lol.

Tellervo wrote...

My partner is Scotch-Irish...  kilts... 


On the topic of the Dervish thing... As Aro said, GW used the
Dervish as inspiration for a class (though it is treated as a religious
matter in game, as well, and rather respectfully).  I don't recall
hearing much stink over it, or over use of yogic practices in
inspiration for the Ritualist.

A picture wouldn't really have the chance to be one way or the other about the religion, but I wouldn't be dressing him up that way as an insult. XD Especially considering the hours such a picture would take...

However, I'm probably better off not doing it. I can't see investing 30-40 hours of work on a picture only to have people give me crap over it, and it's not as though I don't have other projects to work on. It's an idea that will have to remain in all its spinning awesome in my head for the time being.

[Charsen]

haven't really been keeping up with the thread lately, but just thought i'd mention that there is a group of people from custom bodies that are apparently making a mod that turns Zevran into a woman (Zevra). i don't know the details, and i am not interested to be honest, but thought i'd throw that in with the whole gender bending conversation with a resounding shrug.

[Aroihkin]

Elps wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

And yeah, the dancing isn't limited to the religion IIRC, so I probably shouldn't have used that term, but it's the term I hear the most for it. And it's what inspired the Guild Wars "Dervishes".

Yeah, I know its inspired other things but that doesn't take away the fact that the whirling is part of a sacred religious ceremony. I really don't know how to say this - I don't want to come across all preachy! But poking fun at a really significant spiritual thing, especially when its part of the Sufi Muslim religion, should only be done if you are fully aware of the implications. 

I've been to one of the services in Turkey. Its very long, incredibly moving, and very powerful. The dancing is only a part of the Ritual of Sema. It's not a dance performance like the watch-performers-applaud type. The ceremonies are almost always conducted in Mevlevihane (cloisters - like part of their monastery). What gets put up on YouTube really demeans the ritual & I know they infuriate some people. 

I wouldn't have said anything but I wasn't sure if you knew what the Dervishes actually are, or whether you understood that turning Zev into a Dervish could really rile some religious people.  Backing away slowly now...

As I've said, it wouldn't be me poking fun at anything. Not sure how else to put it...

I won't be bothering anyway. If I'm already getting told I'd be disrespecting an entire culture for drawing our Antivan in some skirts and a vest, I'd probably end up ragequitting the fandom after putting all those hours into a picture only to get screamed at.

I suppose I forgot for a moment that this is the fandom that I offend every time I open my mouth, so to speak. I'll keep my crazy ideas to myself, then.

Edit 1hr later, since I don't think it warrants a new post:

Guild Wars Dervish: regular male dance, collector's edition male dance, Nightfall dance party, the girl Dervs are the spinning ones. :3

A rather windy class rundown.

I suppose I'm just showing my mutt nationality and my solitary-confinement childhood again, but I still don't see how drawing an Antivan in some skirts and a vest based off tourist-trap outfits in turn based off the legit thing is any worse than the GW profession. I don't really want to get into it, though. It's very likely not an idea worth pursuing, especially since I have a history of folks in this fandom taking everything I say or do as grand sweeping social commentary. Nothing against you, Elps. Just in general. I'd probably get chased with pitchforks and torches again.

I'm probably best off just keeping my crazy ideas to myself, all told, or just writing them in fic where less people see them. Even the time I remarked on Dragon Age anatomy, I got told by some random person that I was propogating body image steroetypes by calling the anatomy bad. Which it is. I attract this sort of drama, it seems.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 04 mai 2010 - 06:13 .

[SurrealSadi]

Elps wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Tellervo wrote...

Elps wrote...

It's something I didn't get about the game. If Ferelden is based on medieval Scotland why aren't there any kilts to put on our characters?
 

This.  I want kilts.  I want a kilt on my Warden.  Someone make this happen.  I'll give you a thousand internets.

I want a kilt on Zev..... And Riordan.

Oh god, could you imagine a kilt on TEAGAN?!

OMG - YES!!!  
Ok, so now we need someone to mod us some kilts. Shall we argue over which tartan now?

...hell, I know I'm of Scottish descent on BOTH sides of my family, but I have NO clue what our family tartans are. So, I'd say, find a generic one? If such thing exists?

[SurrealSadi]

Charsen wrote...

haven't really been keeping up with the thread lately, but just thought i'd mention that there is a group of people from custom bodies that are apparently making a mod that turns Zevran into a woman (Zevra). i don't know the details, and i am not interested to be honest, but thought i'd throw that in with the whole gender bending conversation with a resounding shrug.

....

What? That's just... That's just WRONG, IMHO.

[Aroihkin]

Charsen wrote...

haven't really been keeping up with the thread lately, but just thought i'd mention that there is a group of people from custom bodies that are apparently making a mod that turns Zevran into a woman (Zevra). i don't know the details, and i am not interested to be honest, but thought i'd throw that in with the whole gender bending conversation with a resounding shrug.

I still find that rather horrifying. What's wrong with him as a guy, ffs?

And this is me, who has talked about how I could flip-flop most of my characters' genders without losing who they are, but it seems so pointless with a canon character. Someone you didn't even create. If you like him in the game, you like him as a dude. If you don't like him in the game, leave him alone.

My two cents, anyway.

[TanithAeyrs]

SurrealSadi wrote...

Charsen wrote...

haven't really been keeping up with the thread lately, but just thought i'd mention that there is a group of people from custom bodies that are apparently making a mod that turns Zevran into a woman (Zevra). i don't know the details, and i am not interested to be honest, but thought i'd throw that in with the whole gender bending conversation with a resounding shrug.

....

What? That's just... That's just WRONG, IMHO.

Agreed.  I think we are all happy with Zev the way he is.

Now about Teagan in a kilt...

[Aroihkin]

TanithAeyrs wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Charsen wrote...

haven't really been keeping up with the thread lately, but just thought i'd mention that there is a group of people from custom bodies that are apparently making a mod that turns Zevran into a woman (Zevra). i don't know the details, and i am not interested to be honest, but thought i'd throw that in with the whole gender bending conversation with a resounding shrug.

....

What? That's just... That's just WRONG, IMHO.

Agreed.  I think we are all happy with Zev the way he is.

Now about Teagan in a kilt...

The Bannhammer in a kilt is something I'm surprised hasn't been done already. The fandom is slacking.

[SurrealSadi]

Aroihkin wrote...

TanithAeyrs wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Charsen wrote...

haven't really been keeping up with the thread lately, but just thought i'd mention that there is a group of people from custom bodies that are apparently making a mod that turns Zevran into a woman (Zevra). i don't know the details, and i am not interested to be honest, but thought i'd throw that in with the whole gender bending conversation with a resounding shrug.

....

What? That's just... That's just WRONG, IMHO.

Agreed.  I think we are all happy with Zev the way he is.

Now about Teagan in a kilt...

The Bannhammer in a kilt is something I'm surprised hasn't been done already. The fandom is slacking.

And it would have to be JUST a kilt he's wearing...

[Aroihkin]

SurrealSadi wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

TanithAeyrs wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Charsen wrote...

haven't really been keeping up with the thread lately, but just thought i'd mention that there is a group of people from custom bodies that are apparently making a mod that turns Zevran into a woman (Zevra). i don't know the details, and i am not interested to be honest, but thought i'd throw that in with the whole gender bending conversation with a resounding shrug.

....

What? That's just... That's just WRONG, IMHO.

Agreed.  I think we are all happy with Zev the way he is.

Now about Teagan in a kilt...

The Bannhammer in a kilt is something I'm surprised hasn't been done already. The fandom is slacking.

And it would have to be JUST a kilt he's wearing...

Isn't that a given? This is the Bannhammer, after all.

If Duncan's beard had hips, it too would wear a kilt.

[SurrealSadi]

Aroihkin wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

TanithAeyrs wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Charsen wrote...

haven't really been keeping up with the thread lately, but just thought i'd mention that there is a group of people from custom bodies that are apparently making a mod that turns Zevran into a woman (Zevra). i don't know the details, and i am not interested to be honest, but thought i'd throw that in with the whole gender bending conversation with a resounding shrug.

....

What? That's just... That's just WRONG, IMHO.

Agreed.  I think we are all happy with Zev the way he is.

Now about Teagan in a kilt...

The Bannhammer in a kilt is something I'm surprised hasn't been done already. The fandom is slacking.

And it would have to be JUST a kilt he's wearing...

Isn't that a given? This is the Bannhammer, after all.

If Duncan's beard had hips, it too would wear a kilt.

*snicker*

[Mscheveous]

Aww, see I think of Zev as Masculine, but I could so see him wearing the Frank-n-Furter outfit, either for a Crow job, or a Warden (cough) job...



'Give yourself over to absolute pleasure. Swim the warm waters of sins of the flesh - erotic nightmares beyond any measure, and sensual daydreams to treasure forever. Can't you just see it? Don't dream it, be it.'



That screams Zev to me...

[Yendi]

Aroihkin wrote...

Elps wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

And yeah, the dancing isn't limited to the religion IIRC, so I probably shouldn't have used that term, but it's the term I hear the most for it. And it's what inspired the Guild Wars "Dervishes".

Yeah, I know its inspired other things but that doesn't take away the fact that the whirling is part of a sacred religious ceremony. I really don't know how to say this - I don't want to come across all preachy! But poking fun at a really significant spiritual thing, especially when its part of the Sufi Muslim religion, should only be done if you are fully aware of the implications. 

I've been to one of the services in Turkey. Its very long, incredibly moving, and very powerful. The dancing is only a part of the Ritual of Sema. It's not a dance performance like the watch-performers-applaud type. The ceremonies are almost always conducted in Mevlevihane (cloisters - like part of their monastery). What gets put up on YouTube really demeans the ritual & I know they infuriate some people. 

I wouldn't have said anything but I wasn't sure if you knew what the Dervishes actually are, or whether you understood that turning Zev into a Dervish could really rile some religious people.  Backing away slowly now...

As I've said, it wouldn't be me poking fun at anything. Not sure how else to put it...

I won't be bothering anyway. If I'm already getting told I'd be disrespecting an entire culture for drawing our Antivan in some skirts and a vest, I'd probably end up ragequitting the fandom after putting all those hours into a picture only to get screamed at.

I suppose I forgot for a moment that this is the fandom that I offend every time I open my mouth, so to speak. I'll keep my crazy ideas to myself, then.

Why give up the idea after one comment? I don't see what so disrespectful about drawing Zevran like that that and I'm half-turkish. Of course I'm also atheist so maybe I can't really judge but I don't think there are many actual sufists that would see it or be be upset by it if they did, it's not even making fun of the ritual like some of the youtube clips.

[Aroihkin]

Yendi wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Elps wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

And yeah, the dancing isn't limited to the religion IIRC, so I probably shouldn't have used that term, but it's the term I hear the most for it. And it's what inspired the Guild Wars "Dervishes".

Yeah, I know its inspired other things but that doesn't take away the fact that the whirling is part of a sacred religious ceremony. I really don't know how to say this - I don't want to come across all preachy! But poking fun at a really significant spiritual thing, especially when its part of the Sufi Muslim religion, should only be done if you are fully aware of the implications. 

I've been to one of the services in Turkey. Its very long, incredibly moving, and very powerful. The dancing is only a part of the Ritual of Sema. It's not a dance performance like the watch-performers-applaud type. The ceremonies are almost always conducted in Mevlevihane (cloisters - like part of their monastery). What gets put up on YouTube really demeans the ritual & I know they infuriate some people. 

I wouldn't have said anything but I wasn't sure if you knew what the Dervishes actually are, or whether you understood that turning Zev into a Dervish could really rile some religious people.  Backing away slowly now...

As I've said, it wouldn't be me poking fun at anything. Not sure how else to put it...

I won't be bothering anyway. If I'm already getting told I'd be disrespecting an entire culture for drawing our Antivan in some skirts and a vest, I'd probably end up ragequitting the fandom after putting all those hours into a picture only to get screamed at.

I suppose I forgot for a moment that this is the fandom that I offend every time I open my mouth, so to speak. I'll keep my crazy ideas to myself, then.

Why give up the idea after one comment? I don't see what so disrespectful about drawing Zevran like that that and I'm half-turkish. Of course I'm also atheist so maybe I can't really judge but I don't think there are many actual sufists that would see it or be be upset by it if they did, it's not even making fun of the ritual like some of the youtube clips.

Good to hear. I don't feel like getting the torch and pitchfork treatment after 30-40 hours on an artwork piece....this being my art style, it's no small thing to put something together in it. I certainly wouldn't be doing it as a "joke", that's an awful lot of effort to poke fun at anything. I'd be doing it because it would look awesome.

I edited my last comment on it way upstream though, figuring folks were done hearing about it, haha. Lots of links to the Guild Wars version of Dervishes and such, which I don't think has caused much if any outrage. Perhaps because GW Dervishes are awesome? But, I hold that Zev in such a costume would be awesome as well.

Sorry if I sound melodramatic, but my faith in the fandom's sense of perspective is not a particularly strong one after my track record. I might draw it anyway, who knows? It's an art-bug that's been in my brain for a good long time now and it has to come out someday...

Hopefully that's coherent, I'm in a lot of pain RL and the Ibuprofen is just refusing to kick in.

[Sannox]

Good morning!

Ejoslin, I think I know just what you mean about the whole cross-dressing thing. I was so confused when I first saw fan art of Zevran because I just don't get the way some people (probably most people, judging from the fan art) see him as rather androgenous. He is SO masculine. His movements are often balletic, but not feminine. Oh, except the movement he does when you select him at the choosing a party screen. It's not feminine so much as slightly camp. I think it's the same movement Anders has.

Physically, I do not see the smooth skin, the cute turned up nose that some people draw, and so on. I like looking at those pictures and see them portraying an aspect of his personality, but physically, no - I don't get it. That's one thing I love about Aro's picture - it's him, with his lined face, and the movement is one he would do.

I haven't picked up hints that cross-dressing is his thing either. I get the hints about bondage, masochism and submission, definitely. I wonder if people see the submissive aspect as feminine? I don't at all.

I've known cross-dressers, gay and straight and had boyfriends cross-dress. I'm not anti it at all. I can see Zevran doing it if the warden wanted, as I can with most things.

Modifié par Sannox, 04 mai 2010 - 07:08 .