35177 réponses à ce sujet

[SurrealSadi]

Sannox wrote...

Good morning!

Ejoslin, I think I know just what you mean about the whole cross-dressing thing. I was so confused when I first saw fan art of Zevran because I just don't get the way some people (probably most people, judging from the fan art) see him as rather androgenous. He is SO masculine. His movements are often balletic, but not feminine. Oh, except the movement he does when you select him at the choosing a party screen. It's not feminine so much as slightly camp. I think it's the same movement Anders has.

Physically, I do not see the smooth skin, the cute turned up nose that some people draw, and so on. I like looking at those pictures and see it as them portraying an aspect of his personality, but physically, no - I don't get it. That's one thing I love about Aro's picture - it's him, with his lined face, and the movement is one he would do.

I haven't picked up hints that cross-dressing is his thing either. I get the hints about bondage, masochism and submission, definitely. I wonder if people see the submissive aspect as feminine? I don't at all.

I've known cross-dressers, gay and straight and had boyfriends cross-dress. I'm not anti it at all. I can see Zevran doing it if the warden wanted, as I can with most things.

I can see him doing it to get a reaction from the Warden, the Companions, or both. Remember, he "flirts" with the others to get a rise out them. Him 'cross-dressing' could be just for the reaction from everyone...

Edit: Oh, blargh.


Cause I love the look, and I think Zev would look flarking hot in a good suit.

Modifié par SurrealSadi, 04 mai 2010 - 07:14 .

[Sannox]

Charsen wrote...

haven't really been keeping up with the thread lately, but just thought i'd mention that there is a group of people from custom bodies that are apparently making a mod that turns Zevran into a woman (Zevra). i don't know the details, and i am not interested to be honest, but thought i'd throw that in with the whole gender bending conversation with a resounding shrug.

How could that work?  His voice is so masculine.   Or are they using a voice actor (or raising his voice?).   I don't know if I want to see that.   I love his voice.

[Sannox]

SurrealSadi wrote...
I can see him doing it to get a reaction from the Warden, the Companions, or both. Remember, he "flirts" with the others to get a rise out them. Him 'cross-dressing' could be just for the reaction from everyone...

Maybe.  Although I don't think they'd actually react that much, even Alistair.   Sten would be completely confused, but probably not any more than he already is.  

Considering males and females have such distinct bodies, it would be difficult for him to pass.  (Unlike in real life where there is more of a variation).   He could wear a corset and padding, but he couldn't hide the shoulders. 

I do think he'd look good though, in Rocky Horror stuff.  I'm speaking as somebody who had a major crush on Tim Curry in the RHPS in my teens.  I just don't see it hinted at, for him, in the game.

[SurrealSadi]

Sannox wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...
I can see him doing it to get a reaction from the Warden, the Companions, or both. Remember, he "flirts" with the others to get a rise out them. Him 'cross-dressing' could be just for the reaction from everyone...

Maybe.  Although I don't think they'd actually react that much, even Alistair.   Sten would be completely confused, but probably not any more than he already is.  

Considering males and females have such distinct bodies, it would be difficult for him to pass.  (Unlike in real life where there is more of a variation).   He could wear a corset and padding, but he couldn't hide the shoulders. 

I do think he'd look good though, in Rocky Horror stuff.  I'm speaking as somebody who had a major crush on Tim Curry in the RHPS in my teens.  I just don't see it hinted at, for him, in the game.

That's what I mean, something RHPS-esque, like maybe the teddy, fishnets and heels in private with the Warden to see the reaction there.

[Aroihkin]

Sannox wrote...

Good morning!

Ejoslin, I think I know just what you mean about the whole cross-dressing thing. I was so confused when I first saw fan art of Zevran because I just don't get the way some people (probably most people, judging from the fan art) see him as rather androgenous. He is SO masculine. His movements are often balletic, but not feminine. Oh, except the movement he does when you select him at the choosing a party screen. It's not feminine so much as slightly camp. I think it's the same movement Anders has.

Physically, I do not see the smooth skin, the cute turned up nose that some people draw, and so on. I like looking at those pictures and see them portraying an aspect of his personality, but physically, no - I don't get it. That's one thing I love about Aro's picture - it's him, with his lined face, and the movement is one he would do.

I haven't picked up hints that cross-dressing is his thing either. I get the hints about bondage, masochism and submission, definitely. I wonder if people see the submissive aspect as feminine? I don't at all.

I've known cross-dressers, gay and straight and had boyfriends cross-dress. I'm not anti it at all. I can see Zevran doing it if the warden wanted, as I can with most things.

Well, a lot of the stuff about smooth skin, nose, etc is simply a matter of art style, which I think is fine. How many versions of Morrigan are there just in canon? The load-screen image, her appearance in-game, the trailer...

And I agree, submission is not a feminine aspect. One can be inclined towards that without losing masculinity at all. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm addressing that in IO as well. I don't think Zev's acted girly whenever he's gotten submissive at the Warden, and he's gotten that way enough to make her heckles go up. I think it's obvious that it'll be a theme through-out the story... and if it's not obvious, well, I'll say it right here; it's a theme. XD It's only going to get more-so as the rating goes up... but I'm using Alleyana to poke at gender stereotypes anyway, so that's not that surprising.

Although not everyone knows that a submissive guy does NOT automatically (or even generally) equal femmy. You can blame the yaoi-for-girls culture for that, with their girly "bottoms" and the height rule and other such things. I've lived with folks who would have words on that entire subject. Hell, I've cheerfully lived with a female-to-male pre-op who did their boyfriend with a strapon (by his request) but who was generally inclined to be a submissive... so I think gender's kind of stupid to get hung up on anyway.

Meh, I'm probably half incoherent. The IBU is finally kicking in, at least, but I need more caffeine.

[Sannox]

I know nothing about yaoi. I'm a generation behind most of you here. But I have seen the 'submissive as feminine' thing, and it's another thing I don't get! Or the idea that the submissive partner is physically smaller or weaker. I can completely see Zevran dominating a human male or female, and that would be very hot, actually. (Even though he does seem to be identifying as submissive. I get the impression he'd switch. Wishful thinking, maybe.)

[SurrealSadi]

*purposely avoids the yaoi part of discussion*



I think Zevran, while being somewhat submissive, would likely switch as the smexy times called for it...

[Sannox]

And yes, Aro, I do get your point about art style. I really love that picture of Aimo's which was posted recently (I'm talking about the schoolboy one), and I do see that it's her style - that all her DA characters are a little more 'cute' than how I see them. and her Zevran is a little more cute too. But that picture is probably not a good example, because despite the boyishness, there's the hints of powerful muscles under that uniform.

(Why I love that picture so much, I don't know. It's something about his expresssion, as if he's saying 'I know I'm completely hot, and that this is so kinky and what are you going to do about it?'  It captures something about the way he flirts with the warden)

*fans self*
Edit: reposting picture.  For reference.

By sannox at 2010-04-27


Anyway, I meant that I know it's sometimes the style, particularly in that anime/cartoony type of art. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with it. But even taking that into consideration I still think I see more androgenous/feminine/boyish Zevran than I'd expect. Obviously a lot of people really do see something I don't.

Modifié par Sannox, 04 mai 2010 - 07:52 .

[Aroihkin]

*snickers* I'm not saying he'd never climb on top of the Warden, whoever and whatever they are. It's not generally so static as that. And even then, one can sub from on top, so to speak.

Most of the folks I know who identify as one or the other also say that they can and have switched, if they don't all-out identify as a switch who prefers ___. And those are just the people with which it's come up in conversation... yes, I do have strange conversations with people.

But I get the feeling that a lot of "gay elf = sub = small and lithe and delicate and possibly girly" haven't had many of these conversations.

[Minaleth]

I'll address just the masculine/feminine Zevran in fanart as I've seen ton of that and also done some.

There are lot of variables playing role - how the artist sees him in game, what does artist prefer on males, what does the artist consider beautiful, what's the artist's style, how good is the artist at drawing males, how does the anatomy turn out (e.g. you can screw up proportions and end up with feminine looking guy by accident not intent), how much is the artist influenced by stereotypes (of elves, bisexuality, assassins, rogues, dexterity based classes, leather armor... whatever), if the artist wishes to follow canon or not, if the artist uses reference (screenshot e.g.), if the artist aims for manga style (I see this a LOT especially done by young ppl learning to draw, bad idea mostly), etc. Anything of this might result in feminine looking guy imo.

I draw (or try to draw) anatomically plausible manly Zevran, for three reasons - (1) I think it's the canon truth about the character and I like canon, (2) I like him to look like that, it's sexy, (3) I learn to draw male anatomy features which is most useful. 
 

Modifié par Minaleth, 04 mai 2010 - 07:58 .

[SurrealSadi]

Sannox wrote...

And yes, Aro, I do get your point about art style. I really love that picture of Aimo's which was posted recently (I'm talking about the schoolboy one), and I do see that it's her style - that all her DA characters are a little more 'cute' than how I see them. and her Zevran is a little more cute too. But that picture is probably not a good example, because despite the boyishness, there's the hints of powerful muscles under that uniform.

(Why I love that picture so much, I don't know. It's something about his expresssion, as if he's saying 'I know I'm completely hot, and that this is so kinky and what are you going to do about it?')

*fans self*
Edit: reposting picture.  For reference.



Anyway, I meant that I know it's sometimes the style, particularly in that anime/cartoony type of art. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with it. But even taking that into consideration I still think I see more androgenous/feminine/boyish Zevran than I'd expect. Obviously a lot of people really do see something I don't.

Seriously, the slightly-naughty very hot schoolboy in that picture is....just...

But yes, he's too cute compared to the game, but then, that's Aimo's style. And with much of her other drawings of the characters, I think it works.

[Aroihkin]

Minaleth wrote...

I'll address just the masculine/feminine Zevran in fanart as I've seen ton of that and also done some.

There are lot of variables playing role - how the artist sees him in game, what does artist prefer on males, what does the artist consider beautiful, what's the artist's style, how good is the artist at drawing males, how does the anatomy turn out (e.g. you can screw up proportions and end up with feminine looking guy by accident not intent), how much is the artist influenced by stereotypes (of elves, bisexuality, assassins, rogues, dexterity based classes, leather armor... whatever), if the artist wishes to follow canon or not, if the artist uses reference (screenshot e.g.), if the artist aims for manga style (I see this a LOT especially done by young ppl learning to draw, bad idea mostly), etc. Anything of this might result in feminine looking guy imo.

I draw (or try to draw) anatomically plausible manly Zevran, for three reasons - (1) I think it's the canon truth about the character and I like canon, (2) I like him to look like that, it's sexy, (3) I learn to draw male anatomy features which is most useful. 
 

Agreed about all the influences~ I drew my picture while staring at a bunch of screenshots of him, if I was good enough to draw him without doing so he may have ended up looking a little different, who knows? But I'm kind of not, which is just as well since I adore his in-game look. (Which is, in turn, why I was staring at screenshots while drawing! lol, and why I didn't give up on those damn forehead wrinkles.)

And @ Sannox -- the schoolboy picture is probably one of my favorite fanarts I've seen of him, and I can't entirely place why either. But it's just so... so Zev. And what you said, about naughty and what are you going to do about it? XDD

Edit: On an unrelated note, cracked.com's top weird things lists are consuming my browser again, tab by tab. All the random trivia in amusing bite-sized form!

Modifié par Aroihkin, 04 mai 2010 - 08:13 .

[Sannox]

@ Minaleth That's really interesting, about the different routes people take to get to their picture.   I feel so ignorant about art.   But yes, I can see that art is personal and there will be something of the artist's attitude, influence and preferences coming through.  

@Aro and @Surreal Yes, why is that picture so hot?  I swear I blushed when I first saw it.  It really does capture something of Zevran.  I think it's when the relationship is starting and he's flirting, and drops those heavy hints - he does it as if he knows you're attracted to him, and he's almost taunting you to do something about it.   I can't explain it.  But the picture gets that across. 

Oops, this almost became a TMI post.  If it was just us lot talking it would have been.  I forget that this is a public internet forum.   I'll just say that my boyfriend also manages to capture that look and attitude.  (Maybe one of the reasons why I still have an obssessive crush on him, several years into the relationship).  

[SurrealSadi]

Sannox wrote...

@ Minaleth That's really interesting, about the different routes people take to get to their picture.   I feel so ignorant about art.   But yes, I can see that art is personal and there will be something of the artist's attitude, influence and preferences coming through.  

@Aro and @Surreal Yes, why is that picture so hot?  I swear I blushed when I first saw it.  It really does capture something of Zevran.  I think it's when the relationship is starting and he's flirting, and drops those heavy hints - he does it as if he knows you're attracted to him, and he's almost taunting you to do something about it.   I can't explain it.  But the picture gets that across. 

Oops, this almost became a TMI post.  If it was just us lot talking it would have been.  I forget that this is a public internet forum.   I'll just say that my boyfriend also manages to capture that look and attitude.  (Maybe one of the reasons why I still have an obssessive crush on him, several years into the relationship).  

Oh seriously... I saw that picture and my jaw wanted to hit the floor. It just... draws a specific reaction from females. I'm not sure if it's the same reaction, but it draws a reaction.

[Aroihkin]

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sannox wrote...

@ Minaleth That's really interesting, about the different routes people take to get to their picture.   I feel so ignorant about art.   But yes, I can see that art is personal and there will be something of the artist's attitude, influence and preferences coming through.  

@Aro and @Surreal Yes, why is that picture so hot?  I swear I blushed when I first saw it.  It really does capture something of Zevran.  I think it's when the relationship is starting and he's flirting, and drops those heavy hints - he does it as if he knows you're attracted to him, and he's almost taunting you to do something about it.   I can't explain it.  But the picture gets that across. 

Oops, this almost became a TMI post.  If it was just us lot talking it would have been.  I forget that this is a public internet forum.   I'll just say that my boyfriend also manages to capture that look and attitude.  (Maybe one of the reasons why I still have an obssessive crush on him, several years into the relationship).  

Oh seriously... I saw that picture and my jaw wanted to hit the floor. It just... draws a specific reaction from females. I'm not sure if it's the same reaction, but it draws a reaction.

Well, the comic penciller of the roommates saw it (when I linked) and went "Damn, she's good," and just... stared at it for a good fifteen seconds or so while I was helping him with stuff, and he's a straight guy. So it's not all in us wanting to jump Zevran; it's really a damn good picture even without that to help it along.

Although wanting to jump Zev's bones proooobably doesn't hurt matters at all.

[SurrealSadi]

Aroihkin wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sannox wrote...

@ Minaleth That's really interesting, about the different routes people take to get to their picture.   I feel so ignorant about art.   But yes, I can see that art is personal and there will be something of the artist's attitude, influence and preferences coming through.  

@Aro and @Surreal Yes, why is that picture so hot?  I swear I blushed when I first saw it.  It really does capture something of Zevran.  I think it's when the relationship is starting and he's flirting, and drops those heavy hints - he does it as if he knows you're attracted to him, and he's almost taunting you to do something about it.   I can't explain it.  But the picture gets that across. 

Oops, this almost became a TMI post.  If it was just us lot talking it would have been.  I forget that this is a public internet forum.   I'll just say that my boyfriend also manages to capture that look and attitude.  (Maybe one of the reasons why I still have an obssessive crush on him, several years into the relationship).  

Oh seriously... I saw that picture and my jaw wanted to hit the floor. It just... draws a specific reaction from females. I'm not sure if it's the same reaction, but it draws a reaction.

Well, the comic penciller of the roommates saw it (when I linked) and went "Damn, she's good," and just... stared at it for a good fifteen seconds or so while I was helping him with stuff, and he's a straight guy. So it's not all in us wanting to jump Zevran; it's really a damn good picture even without that to help it along.

Although wanting to jump Zev's bones proooobably doesn't hurt matters at all.

Really? Your straight guy roommate stared at a fanart of Zevran for 15 seconds? And because it's a f*cking awesome piece of art? Awesome.

Edited cause obviously I need to learn how to proofread.

Modifié par SurrealSadi, 04 mai 2010 - 08:27 .

[Aroihkin]

SurrealSadi wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sannox wrote...

@ Minaleth That's really interesting, about the different routes people take to get to their picture.   I feel so ignorant about art.   But yes, I can see that art is personal and there will be something of the artist's attitude, influence and preferences coming through.  

@Aro and @Surreal Yes, why is that picture so hot?  I swear I blushed when I first saw it.  It really does capture something of Zevran.  I think it's when the relationship is starting and he's flirting, and drops those heavy hints - he does it as if he knows you're attracted to him, and he's almost taunting you to do something about it.   I can't explain it.  But the picture gets that across. 

Oops, this almost became a TMI post.  If it was just us lot talking it would have been.  I forget that this is a public internet forum.   I'll just say that my boyfriend also manages to capture that look and attitude.  (Maybe one of the reasons why I still have an obssessive crush on him, several years into the relationship).  

Oh seriously... I saw that picture and my jaw wanted to hit the floor. It just... draws a specific reaction from females. I'm not sure if it's the same reaction, but it draws a reaction.

Well, the comic penciller of the roommates saw it (when I linked) and went "Damn, she's good," and just... stared at it for a good fifteen seconds or so while I was helping him with stuff, and he's a straight guy. So it's not all in us wanting to jump Zevran; it's really a damn good picture even without that to help it along.

Although wanting to jump Zev's bones proooobably doesn't hurt matters at all.

Really? Your straight guy roommate stared at a fanart of Zevran for 15 seconds? And because it's a f*cking awesome piece of art? Awesome.

Edited cause obviously I need to learn how to proofread.

My straight roommate who pencils a comic book on a professional level stared at a fanart of Zevran for 15 seconds because it's a f*cking awesome piece of art. ;D And that was just the one long shot of initial staring, he kept glancing at it for a few seconds at a time afterwards while I helped him with stuff.

He knows who Zevran is, he's played Dragon Age, he's just not attracted to him. Didn't stop him from oggling the artwork, though.

If I remember right, the other roommate liked it a lot as well, and she's the colorist who corrects his pencil-work. But she also agrees that Zevran is a hottie, so it's almost not as... telling, I guess? Haha.

Aimo's just really damn good. XD

Modifié par Aroihkin, 04 mai 2010 - 08:38 .

[Aroihkin]

...Holy crap, how did this not already get posted?   




Say what you will about a lot of cosplay, but I think this person did an awesome job on this. The details are just insane.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 04 mai 2010 - 08:49 .

[Tellervo]

I've been considering doing it for a con, since I've got two friggin' amazing seamstresses and a semi-professional costume designer at my disposal (and a couple of makeup artists I could bully into helping me figure it out and make my own friggin gelatin prosthetics), but I'm much too short, and I'm pretty sure I look too girly. Now, Morrigan... I'm sadly certain I could pull that off fairly well.

Some of the parts of the costume are just a little oversized.  It makes it somewhat less awesome.  There's also something about the hair... I don't think any Zev cosplay could work with a wig.  His hair is much too flat.

Modifié par Tellervo, 04 mai 2010 - 08:58 .

[Nonvita]

Just catching up really quickly (and slightly tipsily):

@Charsen--Ew. Just ew. Does this have something to do with that crazy group?

@Sannox, or whoever it was, it doesn't matter anymore-- I think people actually draw Zevran that way because it's the only way they know how to draw. A lot of people nowadays grow up only drawing anime style, which often dictates a very feminine or androgynous form, so they don't learn the differences between genders. If it is how they see Zevran, though, then... well I don't really know what to say. They seem to have handily illusioned themselves far from what is in the game.

@Aro-- The cosplay is still creepy, sorry. =P

[Sannox]

I don't think I could pull anyone off.

Wait, what did I just say there? I mean I don't look anything like any of them, sadly. I'm too old for Leliana and Morrigan, and too young for Flemeth and Wynne. I'm too buxom for any of them too. If anyone suggests the broodmother - well, just don't.

That costume is pretty impressive. Very attractive model as well - I'm assuming it's a girl?  (I keep editting, sorry).  The wig isn't too bad.  It could do with being tidied up and having an inch or so chopped off the bottom.  The model has quite a long neck, so needs longer hair, but I think it's a little bit too long  The ears could be better.  But I'm not at all familiar with cosplay - it just looks a lot better than I would expect. 

Modifié par Sannox, 04 mai 2010 - 09:13 .

[Aroihkin]

I'd cosplay the crap out of various characters if I had the means and could pull off the looks. I used to have a Ramirez (Skies of Arcadia) costume in-progress, with the idea of walking around in walmart in the middle of the night in it just to screw with people, riding the motorcycle, etc. I was making that thing durable.

And Ramirez is a guy, so there you go, everyone who thinks that's creepy. I was hand-stitching that mofo. But, not only do I not have the resources, and not only can I no longer withstand chemicals or light, but I'm also five-foot-two-ish and as of the last measurement, a 34 DD with a lower half to match. There is only so much ace bandages can do, although I could have gotten away with Ramirez's uniform with its particular cut, with enough wrapping.

But anyway, no cosplay, cross- or otherwise, for me. Never got to do it. The closest I got was wandering around a mall as a female version of Two-Face. The makeup took hours and the costume was made of actual suits cut in half, and the "bad" side (bright pink) tiger-striped by hand. It was pretty intricate, though it was my roommate who did all the work on that one.

So I'm a fan of good cosplay, albeit from a distance. I'm rather envious of folks being able to do awesome stuff like that, and I normally belong to such obscure and small fandoms that the idea of someone costuming as a character I like never ceases to amaze. Perhaps if I was a final fantasy fan or some such thing, I'd feel differently.

Sorry if that's not trendy around here, guys. I like it. The amount of time that person has to have put into that costume boggles me. And unlike my MS Paint stuff, etc, it's something tangible and real-world. Someone has that armor in their closet. That's so cool.

Also, tiny details = whatever. It's no different than other art styles. I see this person, I know exactly who they are and I'm not dismayed at their cosplay job at all.

Edit: I could still pull off a damn good Astronema, I think. I can walk in those heels just fine, and I even have a very similar wig to her purple hair on hand already! But... chemicals and light. Meh.

TL;DR, I don't understand the cosplay-hate. I think it's marvelous when done right.

Edit 2: I feel compelled to add, Astronema is not precisely the type of PR villain that you're used to thinking of. She actually won, for one thing. And I have indeed written her, albeit in roleplay form.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 04 mai 2010 - 10:47 .

[Sannox]

I don't see it as creepy! I was the one who asked on here about getting a Zevran costume for my boyfriend. For private use, I mean.



I had a look at her other pictures, and I think she looks really good, playing male or female. I don't think she looks like Zevran, really, but I can definitely see what she'd get out of dressing up as him and feeling the character from the inside, so to speak. I just hate to think what all that must have cost, and the time, but lots of hobbies are expensive and time-consuming.



Talking of dressing up, my teenage son saw that picture of you in your boots when I was looking at it. Sorry. He approved +100.

[soignee]

are we doing Thoughts On Yaoi, zevthread? I'm going to go hide in my box until it's over or I'll say something and offend someone no doubt so GOING AWAYYYYY NOWWWWWW



@Charsen for the "Zevra" mod:

1) it sounds like the things in WoW you have to kill in the Barrens for a quest

2)LOL NO

[Minaleth]

I like to see good cosplay, it's an interesting form of craft and art, but on the other hand I can understand why lot of people think it's weird. E.g. the crossdressing aspect might be controversial or the fact that most cosplayers are girls and they cosplay male charcters may send the vibe of desperation of this hobby But imo it's not much more weird than drawing fanart, writing fanfic or having a crush on fictional character *cough*