35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sresla]

The actual quote is, "Crude. Go through the trouble of killing a king, you'd think you'd want to see his face." To me, that's more of an observation about the whole situation, that they're not really using it as a trophy. It's just a body, strung up, in the middle of nowhere, at an old battlefield where the bulk of the horde aren't even at - they've long since moved on. If you're doing Ostagar very late in the game, then maybe, yes, the reaction seems a bit off. But when does his commitment to the Warden's cause shift from being something he's just doing to escape the Crows and his own belief that what he's doing is right and a good thing? To just use this as an example, I know there's some dialogue, somewhere (I've never gotten it myself) where you convince Zevran to stay with your group because of the 'treasure' you accumulate and there is ambient conversation where he refers to finding things of value in ruins and such. At what disposition/juncture does he make the comment about feeling that fighting the Blight is a worthy cause? At the gates before the Archdemon fight? I know he mentions it, but if it IS at the gates, that is a pretty advanced stage of the game, his own feelings for the Warden notwithstanding.

[AndreaDraco]

He also says so after the Taliesin encounter, if you pick the right dialogue choices. Anyway, when Zev becomes committed to the Warden, and it's after that that I took my second trip to Ostagar, his comment is really off.

[Sresla]

Arg, I'll make a new post. I'm confused, I guess, by what you mean by "silent disapproval." That, to me, is more because of shoddy coding than it has to do with his own feelings, because X or Y's character's cutscene takes priority over Z's cutscene (literally). You have to take a completely neutral party to Ostagar to see him say anything at all (I ended up just taking him, to see his reaction, because I knew there was one since I'd listened to the dialogue FSB of it). It's the same way in Warden's Peak, take Sten (for example) and Zevran, and Sten's line to Sophia Dryden overrides Zevran making his comments and she replying, "Your Crow is wise."

Edit: As to AndreaDraco's comment (and this goes for other late Ostagar visitors as well), sequentially, I didn't feel like Ostagar should be visited that late. The ONLY benefit that I can see to waiting that long is if you're planning on recruiting Loghain and want to see his reaction. Now, most of us probably loaded up an old save and played it the day it came out, but in a new playthrough, does it make sense to wait that long? Probably not and so his comments make more sense with that in mind.

Modifié par Sresla, 16 février 2010 - 11:58 .

[ejoslin]

Sresla wrote...

The actual quote is, "Crude. Go through the trouble of killing a king, you'd think you'd want to see his face." To me, that's more of an observation about the whole situation, that they're not really using it as a trophy. It's just a body, strung up, in the middle of nowhere, at an old battlefield where the bulk of the horde aren't even at - they've long since moved on. If you're doing Ostagar very late in the game, then maybe, yes, the reaction seems a bit off. But when does his commitment to the Warden's cause shift from being something he's just doing to escape the Crows and his own belief that what he's doing is right and a good thing? To just use this as an example, I know there's some dialogue, somewhere (I've never gotten it myself) where you convince Zevran to stay with your group because of the 'treasure' you accumulate and there is ambient conversation where he refers to finding things of value in ruins and such. At what disposition/juncture does he make the comment about feeling that fighting the Blight is a worthy cause? At the gates before the Archdemon fight? I know he mentions it, but if it IS at the gates, that is a pretty advanced stage of the game, his own feelings for the Warden notwithstanding.

I do agree that it makes a lot more sense at the beginning than at the end -- I thought I had said that.

Ok, I can answer the rest of your questions.  The treasure comment comes just after Taliesen if you're not in a relationship with him.  And he'll also stay as a friend.  Then, it shifts from Warm to Friendly (or Adore to Love) if over 91.  I believe the friendship speech he'll say at 91+ friendly or love.  And he says it in camp, just after the first offering of the earring if in love, or just at camp after Taliesen.  I can transcribe it if you'd like to see it, but he basically says he's with the warden until the end, that he has never done anything so worthy.  

Edit: And I duo'ed RtO with Zevran to see his comment.  I really did not think the ending fit for my warden at all, and not for Zevran when done late game.

Second edit: The friendship speech is also where it's pretty clear that he is prepared to be the one who dies.  Of course, that is protectiveness of the warden, but he obviously takes great pride in helping to fight the blight.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 février 2010 - 11:59 .

[Sresla]

No need to transcribe it - I've got the whole 2-ish whatever hours of Zevran dialogue on MP3 which I've listened to (it's out of order) but I remember one of his lines:Hm, you do seem to accumulate treasure on a regular basis (and me thinking, oh, I've never heard that one, I wonder where it comes in). I, unlike some of you crazy masochists, have never gone down the break-up path with him or just been friends with him, even just to see what he says. The closest I've come was leaving him at the gates once and the 'Cruel to the last' comment ensured eternal commitment to the romance.

Modifié par Sresla, 16 février 2010 - 12:05 .

[ejoslin]

Sresla wrote...

No need to transcribe it - I've got the whole 2-ish whatever hours of Zevran dialogue on MP3 which I've listened to (it's out of order) but I remember one of his lines:Hm, you do seem to accumulate treasure on a regular basis (and me thinking, oh, I've never heard that one, I wonder where it comes in). I, unlike some of you crazy masochists, have never gone down the break-up path with him, even just to see what he says. The closest I've come was leaving him at the gates once and the 'Cruel to the last' comment ensured eternal commitment.

Sresla, you get the friendship speech no matter what.  IF, after he offers you the earring the first time, you tell him that you consider him a friend as well (instead of more than friends), it doesn't end the relationship, and you get that fabulous, "The let me say this, as a friend.  I have never done anything more worthy," speech.  And it makes sense there -- he's still confused about the relationship after all.  He won't go to your tent after that until things are established.  And that response is SO much better than if you tell him, "I consider you more than a friend."

Edit: And yes, he always goes to the arch demon with my warden.  I have more screenshots of the two of them shooting arrows at the archdemon when it flies out of reach.  *grin* he gets a good bow even though that's the only time he'll use it in the game!

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 février 2010 - 12:08 .

[Creature 1]

Sresla wrote...
Hm, you do seem to accumulate treasure on a regular basis (and me thinking, oh, I've never heard that one, I wonder where it comes in).

I think I remember some line about that when you turn down the earring, he says something about how you pick up every other  bit of treasure you run across.  I don't know if this is from that dialogue or a different one, though. 

[ejoslin]

Creature 1, you're right. I was thinking of the persuade check when Zevran asks for his freedom after Taliesen and Zevran agrees that you do seem to come across a lot of treasure. But yes, if you reject the earring the first time, he does say that.  It may only be in a femwarden playthrough, though, since he starts it with, "you're a most frustrating woman."  He also makes a comment about treasure, I believe, in Andastre's temple.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 février 2010 - 02:06 .

[jenovan]

*pops in for the day* XD  Morning all!

ejoslin wrote...

Creature 1, you're right. I was thinking of the persuade check when Zevran asks for his freedom after Taliesen and Zevran agrees that you do seem to come across a lot of treasure. But yes, if you reject the earring the first time, he does say that.  It may only be in a femwarden playthrough, though, since he starts it with, "you're a most frustrating woman."  He also makes a comment about treasure, I believe, in Andastre's temple.

He says the same thing to the male Warden (though it's "you're a most frustrating man", of course ;D).  Ahh, his look of disgust/frustration there is priceless. XD

*scuttles off to transcribe something from earlier in the thread*

[jenovan]

Jaulen wrote...

Whoa, can someone write the dialogue where you get the 'watch but can't have line'?

Surely.   

***Breakup dialogue spoilers***


PC: We need to end this.
Zevran: I... I see. I am... tempted to ask why, but I suspect I already know the answer.
Zevran: Well, let it never be said that Zevran remains where he is not wanted.  Taliesen is dead, and so perhaps this is as good a time as any to make my good-byes, yes?
PC: So you're going to run, now? Typical.
Zevran: Indeed.  I have no desire to stay and be forced to watch what I cannot have.  If that makes me a coward, then so be it.
Zevran: Fare you well, my love. And good luck.

Modifié par jenovan, 16 février 2010 - 02:18 .

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

Whoa, can someone write the dialogue where you get the 'watch but can't have line'?

Surely.   

***Breakup dialogue spoilers***


PC: We need to end this.
Zevran: I... I see. I am... tempted to ask why, but I suspect I already know the answer.
Zevran: Well, let it never be said that Zevran remains where he is not wanted.  Taliesen is dead, and so perhaps this is as good a time as any to make my good-byes, yes?
PC: So you're going to run, now? Typical.
Zevran: Indeed.  I have no desire to stay and be forced to watch what I cannot have.  If that makes me a coward, then so be it.
Zevran: Fare you well, my love. And good luck.

I think the worst part is, he can be so easily talked into staying if you tell him you need him.  Even knowing how much it's ripping him apart.  You don't even need to use the persuade check.

Ok, after doing multiple breakups with Zevran, Leliana, and Alistair, I really cannot think of where either Alistair or Leliana come close to being as torn apart as Zevran is after he falls in love.  The closest is at the end with Alistair, when he tells the ever-romanced warden that she knows how he feels about her, and that he won't let her die, not if he can help it.  But even that doesn't hit me the way the Zevran breakups do.

Thank you for transcribing that.  It's just so heartbreaking

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 février 2010 - 02:42 .

[Jaulen]

@jenovan: Thanks!

Sheesh, I don't know if I could do that to him. The look on his face, the sound of his voice when you do some of the breakups.....it's hard to do! I just get the feeling from him he's like "Okay, I really am worth nothing to anybody" when you dump him, especially in love. Alistair it's more like "Okay, that was stupid of me. Well, let's just move on."

I did like the convo after refusing the earring the first time, the whole "We pick up every bit of treasure we come across and you don't want this earring? Fine.....you don't get it then." (paraphrased of course since I don't have my harddrive with me). I love the way he says that and the look on his face.

And yeah to getting Alistair disapproval! I downloaded the dialogue tweaks and took Zev out for a public kiss in Denerim, and just loved that -3 approval hit from Alistair. Did it a couple of times to get Alisatir out of the danger of the 'Pick one of us lines' I don't want that to trigger until right before the landsmeet so when Alistair does the breakup scene my PC can mutually dump him at that point.

EDIT: And MSNBC Tech section has an article about ME2 and DA:O romance options.

Modifié par Jaulen, 16 février 2010 - 03:41 .

[jenovan]

The only other character I have experience breaking up with is Morrigan, and, well, she reacts exactly the way one would expect her to. XD (I am going to try to get my mage to romance Leliana as well -- I'm wondering if Morrigan's jealousy speeches are any different than for Zevran, because she seems a bit incensed my male PC might choose another man over her.



But anyway, yes, doing this to Zevran is heartbreaking The voice-acting alone is fantastic; watching him makes it worse. *sniff*



@Jaulen: huh, I'll have to go check out that article, neat. XD Go Bioware!

[Jaulen]

Just thinking of getting Alistair's approval down. I did his quest with Goldanna, and decided to harden him, but I didn't follow up with the second convo to cement the personality change (I didn't want the approval from him yet). Until I accidentally clicked on him while trying to pick up loot. So I picked the "We don't have time for this" line, and he looked/sounded so pissy when he said "you're the one that came to talk to me, so you're going to just have to listen to what I have to say." And I was like "Whoa, Alistair, backbone!" But my PC was still short with him, and got a -2 approval drop. Didn't think it was possible to get an approval hit there!

Yeah, Zev's voice acting is great. And when you try to break up with him, his eyes go wide....makes me think of someoen trying not to cry.

Edit: And is bad of me that I killed Connor just to get an approval hit from Alistair?

Modifié par Jaulen, 16 février 2010 - 04:23 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Zev as a friend, or love, is the man you want as your advisor. Out of all the companions, he is the most perceptive and cunning, I think, and his keen obsevations on people and their motives is one of the reasons I have him in my party so much. If I were to become queen, Zev would be my first choice for royal right hand man.



Example: Morrigan. During one of the party banters, he bluntly states that he knows she is up to something, that there is some very important and serious alterior motive that she travels with the Wardens for: she wants something. He is the only companion that points this out due to obersvation and watching her. Alistair, naturally, broadly suspects Morrigan of alot of things, but that is due to his dislike of her personality and deeply ingrained suspicion of apostates and witches. Shale points it out once, but Shale's opinions are colored by a dislike and bad experience with mages.



But with Zevran, it comes from experience and keen insight into other people. His convo with Morrigan was the only one in game that really directly opened up the suspicion that she's up to something. And of course, there's his assessment of Harrowmont being weak, and a bad choice of king. His party banters also show he is pretty good at reading people and knowing which buttons to push, or which parts of their personas need more probing.



I'd say, overall, Zevran is actually alot wiser than Wynne in the way things work. Wynne just gets sanctimonious and preachy, full of stories and plattitudes. Zevran, however, gives you real insight. Which is why, even when he's just a friend, I want him to come help be rebuild the Wardens. He's a better judge of character than anyone else I've met in game. Be helpful for avoiding recruiting another Jory, for certain.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Zev as a friend, or love, is the man you want as your advisor. Out of all the companions, he is the most perceptive and cunning, I think, and his keen obsevations on people and their motives is one of the reasons I have him in my party so much. If I were to become queen, Zev would be my first choice for royal right hand man.

Absolutely.  My HNF was desperate to keep him at court, not only as a friend but as an advisor.  Given the status of Crows in Antivan society, he is one who moves comfortably in places of power, and shrewdly.  You'd have to be a fool not to want him around, either rebuilding the Grey Wardens but especially as ruler.

[Sabriana]

Well put, Skadi. It did give me pause as well. I'm guessing you are referring to this:

Zevran: So I wonder, do you intend to take your mother's place, now?

Morrigan: Take her place? What do you mean?

Zevran: As the new Witch of the Wild. That was her title, no? when one slays the queen, it's assumed they'll take her throne.

Morrigan: Considering the throne is a small shack in the middle of a cold wilderness, I think I may just pass.

Zevran: And why would you lie to me, I wonder?

Morrigan: Ah. Is this the part where you hint at some subtle plot of mine? Because you are so very perceptive?

Zevran: So you didn't know what your mother planned until you read it in that book, that's what you said.

Morrigan: That is correct.

Zevran: I admire you. You are a wicked, wicked woman.

Morrigan: And you are a fool who spends far too much time on his hair.

@ Jenovan

You are my new hero. What sacrifices, just so your friends don't have to bite the bullet. I bow to you.

I so wish there was a mod to make the PC be persuaded by Zevran regarding the mages. My PC is so persuaded, but she can't say it. I say, foul and no fair.

[ejoslin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Zev as a friend, or love, is the man you want as your advisor. Out of all the companions, he is the most perceptive and cunning, I think, and his keen obsevations on people and their motives is one of the reasons I have him in my party so much. If I were to become queen, Zev would be my first choice for royal right hand man.

Example: Morrigan. During one of the party banters, he bluntly states that he knows she is up to something, that there is some very important and serious alterior motive that she travels with the Wardens for: she wants something. He is the only companion that points this out due to obersvation and watching her. Alistair, naturally, broadly suspects Morrigan of alot of things, but that is due to his dislike of her personality and deeply ingrained suspicion of apostates and witches. Shale points it out once, but Shale's opinions are colored by a dislike and bad experience with mages.

But with Zevran, it comes from experience and keen insight into other people. His convo with Morrigan was the only one in game that really directly opened up the suspicion that she's up to something. And of course, there's his assessment of Harrowmont being weak, and a bad choice of king. His party banters also show he is pretty good at reading people and knowing which buttons to push, or which parts of their personas need more probing.

I'd say, overall, Zevran is actually alot wiser than Wynne in the way things work. Wynne just gets sanctimonious and preachy, full of stories and plattitudes. Zevran, however, gives you real insight. Which is why, even when he's just a friend, I want him to come help be rebuild the Wardens. He's a better judge of character than anyone else I've met in game. Be helpful for avoiding recruiting another Jory, for certain.

I was going to snip, but you know, I have to QFT.  Excellent post, sums him up entirely.  It's why he's with me always, and why I always follow his advice.  I love it when he compares his and Leliana's purity as being the same.  Well, I could probably make a really long post of Zev quotes that I really love or think are very insightful.

He definitely the smartest of the companions.  He's the only one who comes off as the warden's equal instead of subservient.  And when he thinks the warden is wrong, he makes it very clear, and is able to explain why.

Good assessment of Wynne as well.  Wynne does not see beneath the surface, and has no clue of how much she actually misses since she's so convinced she's right.

Edit: His outspokenness is what ticks off a lot of people though.  I have read people complain about how he speaks out in Orzammar, how it was dangerous.  But I don't think so -- he was able to judge the situation accurately, including how to speak to the seconds.  I like how he knows when it's time to intimidate someone, when it's time to keep his mouth closed, and how he is not afraid to show anger, and not a "losing his temper" type anger unlike other companions who stay silent until they blow.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 février 2010 - 04:43 .

[jenovan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
- total awesomeness -

Agreed 100%   Zevran's background, and probably some natural perceptiveness, would make him a brilliant advisor.  And yes -- I think he's the only one who mentions his suspicions to Morrigan's face.
 
@Sabriana, I think this is the convo Skadi means, it always sticks in my mind, too:

• Zevran: I see your friendship with the Grey Warden is going very well.
• Morrigan: As is yours.
• Zevran: A-ha! Then you know?
• Morrigan: I am not a fool, if you thought me one.
• Zevran: I do not think you a fool, my lovely woman. We are not so dissimilar, after all. I know what you are doing.
• Morrigan: And what is it that you think I'm doing? Besides the Grey Warden, that is.
• Zevran: Biding your time, naturally. But for what, I wonder?
• Morrigan: Why don't you ask him, if you're so curious.
• Zevran: I doubt that he even knows. I am content to wait and see for myself, however.
• Morrigan: Then don't bring it up again.

Modifié par jenovan, 16 février 2010 - 04:44 .

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
- total awesomeness -

Agreed 100%   Zevran's background, and probably some natural perceptiveness, would make him a brilliant advisor.  And yes -- I think he's the only one who mentions his suspicions to Morrigan's face.
 
@Sabriana, I think this is the convo Skadi means, it always sticks in my mind, too:


[*]Zevran: I see your friendship with the Grey Warden is going very well.
[*]Morrigan: As is yours.
[*]Zevran: A-ha! Then you know?
[*]Morrigan: I am not a fool, if you thought me one.
[*]Zevran: I do not think you a fool, my lovely woman. We are not so dissimilar, after all. I know what you are doing.
[*]Morrigan: And what is it that you think I'm doing? Besides the Grey Warden, that is.
[*]Zevran: Biding your time, naturally. But for what, I wonder?
[*]Morrigan: Why don't you ask him, if you're so curious.
[*]Zevran: I doubt that he even knows. I am content to wait and see for myself, however.
[*]Morrigan: Then don't bring it up again.

That's not a dialog in a female game.
Edit: But thank you for posting THAT one.  It definitely adds onto the one that Sabriana posted.  He's just a lot more clear.  Funny that you have him accusing Morrigan rather than Morrigan accusing him.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 février 2010 - 04:47 .

[Addai]

I was thinking about why my noble male PC is having a harder time becoming friends with Zevran. I think it is because I play him as a bit classist (i.e. a snob, though not really consciously so- just a sheltered noble who's never had his life challenged the way it is now), rather than because of a male-female thing. He tends to be short with people, too. Which is why I think he will eventually learn to value Zevran's no-nonsense attitude and good advice.

[Sabriana]

Ohh, I've never seen that one, thanks Jenovan. That's so cool (I know, the word is outdated ).



Lol @ Addai, I've had a epiphany too. I think I now know why my strange HN rogue is acting the way she does. She all but ignored Alistair when Zevran got closer to her, and I don't think it was because she was falling in love with Zevran and out of love with Alistair - not at first.



I think she did that because everyone always pushed everything on her shoulders and then complains when she makes choices. Zevran doesn't do that, on the contrary, he gives her advise, insight, and shows that he knows she is hurting too.

I think she suffers a bit from PTSD. Seeing Dairren slain right in front of her and the subsequent mayhem might have thrown her off the rail a bit. Ah well. Zevran to the rescue.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

My own human noble, who was a rogue, was fascinated by Zevran. She herself was a bit sneaky, slightly ruthless, and somehwat flexible morally, and he certainly was different from any other elf she had met: sharp, quick witted, able to find a way to turn bad situations to his advantage. Of course, him offering to warm her bedroll and "look pretty" probably had alot to do with it, in the intital encounter. class was not much of a factor, since I played her as a potential embarrassment to her family who feared her wanton antics might cause her father to marry her off to some boring noble brat to "straighten her out". Zevran was instant appeal to her, because on the surface, he represented the type of life and person she had once dreamed of becoming. Though she eventually ends up with Alistair, she still cared greatly for Zevran as a person, and he has always remained her right hand man, sort of a type of Gorim to a Dwarf noble.



And despite somewhat similar pasts and professions, I find Zevran to be more honest, loyal, and trustworthy than Leliana. When Leliana told my noble about the bard life and how she "enjoyed the game", it made her very wary, and she told Leliana "at least violence is honest". That sums it up: for Zev, it was a job, not a game. And Zev prefers blunt honesty to mind games, thinking a clean kill is far better.



As Ejoslin pointed out, I like the way he subtly calls out Leliana on her hypocrisy about her past. He does give his opinion frequently, yet he is also pretty non-judgemental and laid back: he gives you his advice, and then lets you do with it what you wish, and seldom does his approval suffer, even if you chose the opposite of what he suggests. Which makes him a perfect second in command for any situation. When I go to battle the Archdemon, if I leave him behind, I put him in charge. He's the type that would be loyal enough to disobey your orders and choose a different course of action if he believed your original plan was fatally flawed, foolhardy, and was putting you in serious danger of death or worse.



To me, that's the best type of loyalty to have.

[Sabriana]

True, Skadi. I still can't see why people mistrust Zevran, who actually grows, is the only one concerned about the PC, and gives her advice that she may or may not take, and fall all over Leliana. She comes off as a 'sweet and dedicated to the good cause", and the more you get to know her, the creepier she gets.

I swear, I have nothing against her, but she really, really freaked me (and my PC) out when she described her past as a bard with all the torture, hunting, seducing and murdering, and was so happy and joyful about it. Made my PC back up real slow, and re-think the whole of Leliana.

I do not think that Leliana would have broken with her past, had she not been betrayed by Majorlaine. On the contrary, she'd still be out there happily hunting, seducing, torturing, and killing men.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Though she eventually ends up with Alistair, she still cared greatly for Zevran as a person, and he has always remained her right hand man, sort of a type of Gorim to a Dwarf noble.

This is very similar to my HNF character, a cunning rogue.  She never slept with Zevran because she fell for Alistair first and was loyal to him, but I figure there was a passion under the surface that she was able to mellow into a strong friendship.  You know how sometimes the strongest friendships come about from a relationship that could have been romantic but isn't?  I find that, anyway.  However, their similarities in outlook and skills were also basis for the friendship.  And for some very fun gameplay, BTW.  Zevran was definitely her partner in crime, sometimes literally, and setting up those double-rogue stealth ambushes is some of the most fun I've had in the game.

So, I come to another conclusion about why my male HN is having more trouble.  He's not as smart as HNF was.  I think he'll come around.