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[ejoslin]

AndreaDraco wrote...

I really believe that, by the end of the game, sex with the Warden is indeed meaningful for Zevran, and certainly an expression of his love, but this doesn't mean - at least in my mind - that he can't still see sex with other people as a pleasant diversion. I'm not saying that this is the case, mind you, and my Warden(s) will surely be faithful to him, but I guess that I value emotional loyalty way more than physical one - I mean, the real beatiful thing about Zevran is that his love is complete and immense, by the end, and all for the Warden, and that's the really important thing, their unique love.

It's great that this character is so complex that everyone can see something so different, and it all makes sense.

I wonder, when he starts rejecting the warden, if it's more to do out of confusion of his own feelings, or fear that the warden doesn't return them.  I think both, actually, but only because of what he says if you tell him you don't feel the same.

See, my view is, and this may just be very fem-centric, sex, for him, had always been meaningless, which is why he didn't regret using it the way he did.  Again, I think it's possible he would have sex with someone else if the warden wanted to invite someone else into their bed, possibly -- or he may end up feeling betrayed.  It's funny, Alistair WILL have the three-way after he's in love (in fact, I'm pretty sure he has to be in love for it to happen).  But Zevran has a whole different history with sex, and it suddenly being an expression of love, at least for the warden, would put a bit of a change, I would think, on how he views it with other people as well.  But that's my interpretation, and it's no more correct than anyone else's.

But their love is very special.  Whether it's an open relationship or completely monogamous, it's definitely very deep and very true.  I think it shows the absolute deepest love in the game -- maybe because it was such a struggle for it to happen to begin with.

I do love that Zevran's personal quest is nothing he asked for; I think he's the only party member that doesn't ask anything of the warden.  He certainly gives so much more as well.

[AndreaDraco]

Perfectly said, ejoslin

[Jaulen]

*doesn't have a victim mentality*

This is why I love Zevran's character. He's been put through so much, and if there was ANYONE in the game that you would expect to have a victim mentality, it's him. But he doesn't. He's learned to cope in his own way, and although he still hurts (and doesn't want to admit it), he's learned to move on.

And I also like that he never asks for anything, it's awlays what the Warden wants, and he's always there to back up the Warden (like with Murdoc in redcliff), and when you give him something, talk to him as a friend, or ask him what he wants he is always so suprized and unsure.

My PC did a ultimate sacrifice with Zevran in love.....I'll admit. I cried. (especially since he was in love, but I hadn't completed the romance so the 'and some of you even loved her suprized me (this was also before i figured out in the PC game the approval bar also shows their status)

EDIT: ejoslin - Write your fanfic! I haven't written anything creative EVER (unless it was an anthropology class assignment) But decided to sit down and write one (Zevran, Alistair and Oghren in a bar after the blight). And then I wrote another (not done, Tabris mother teaching PC fighting skills).  I was like *oh no* I WROTE Something...I am truely obsessed with this game and the characters.

Modifié par Jaulen, 17 février 2010 - 07:13 .

[Nonvita]

For being "damaged goods," Zevran's a whole lot better at coping than Alistair, and even Morrigan and Leliana, in my opinion. Alistair (while I don't think he's *really* that whiny, and I don't mind his character) needs a lot of help, and I just don't see him being strong on his own, even somewhat when hardened. Leliana tries to blindly convince herself that she's a different person, even though her circumstances were hardly that bad. And even Morrigan has become defensive, distant, and spiteful because of her childhood. Zevran, despite having the worst life of anyone, somehow retains humor, confidence, and a positive outlook. There are definitely aspects of his personality that have hardened, and at least some of the assassin training has become embedded in him, but he has managed to survive and retain a thousand times more humanity than he should have.


I *hate* the Ultimate Sacrifice ending, but then I'm rather biased by my first playthrough. (Like so many other girls, Alistair forced me to let him sacrifice himself, much to the dismay of my CE. It destroyed her emotionally, but, unlike most of those other girls, I had been smart enough to fall in love with Zevran, who was there to travel with her and help her recover from her grief.)
It's such a selfish ending if you're romancing anyone (if you're not then go for it, but that seems rare). Morrigan even says it straight out that you're selfish. I realized just how much of a **** I would have been had I done it. Putting Alistair on the throne (either alone or with a woman he hates) then completely taking away the one thing he loved, that's cruel. Not putting him on the throne and sacrificing yourself is just as cruel. And thank god I didn't do it to Zevran, as I never would have even dreamed how terrible it is for him. It's interesting that it seems like girls who romance Alistair are often ok with the US ending, but people who romance Zevran could never do it. I think it's cruel to do it to either of them, but it makes me downright sick thinking of doing that to Zevran.

Anyway, I just don't get it when people say it's the best ending. Um, it's the *only* ending- everyone else gets to continue on with their story (ug, I know US people can too, but only if they seriously want to disregard the entire story). My character thought it was the end and couldn't see hope or happiness anywhere in her life, but by being spared she was granted a new life with Zevran where she will learn to find joy and feel worthy of living again.

Yeesh, rant over. Goodness gracious what was all that?


Anyway, with Zevran and sex I agree he wouldn't go out of his way to have other sex partners. That said, I don't think it's impossible that he could still have sex with other people. For example, neither my CE or him are sure what will happen with him in the future. If he does go back to being an assassin, then it's possible sex will still be one of the tools he uses, though I doubt he would go out of his way to pursue it like he used to. But I doubt she'd really mind, since she knows perfectly well that his heart belongs to her, and hers to him. Chances are that they'll be separated for quite awhile (what with her fighting darkspawn and all), and all she'll care about is that he be safe when she returns. If he had sex as part of his job, and with someone he felt nothing for, then it's nothing to get upset over.

[Rhinna]

ejoslin wrote...

Alistair WILL have the three-way after he's in love (in fact, I'm pretty sure he has to be in love for it to happen).  

Odd...because I had Alastair at love, and when I suggested the threesome he replied "Whoa, whoa WHOA..ummm boundaries here?!!" and refused. 

I got a chuckle out of that!

[ejoslin]

Rhinna wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Alistair WILL have the three-way after he's in love (in fact, I'm pretty sure he has to be in love for it to happen).  

Odd...because I had Alastair at love, and when I suggested the threesome he replied "Whoa, whoa WHOA..ummm boundaries here?!!" and refused. 

I got a chuckle out of that!

He has to be hardened.  He WILL do it if hardened, quite happily (mmmmm, wet frocks!) -- and in order for him to be hardened, you have to do his personal quest.  And if you've done his personal quest and are romancing him and he's demanding monogamy, he's most likely at 91+ which is love.

Edit: If you choose to not harden him, he won't do it.   Though he still will do the ritual without using the persuade check.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 février 2010 - 08:38 .

[Jaulen]

I'm much more okay doing the US ending if romancing Alistair. He seems like he'd get over it after a bit and move on and make his marriage the best he could with Anora or whomever he married. And then he'd have fond memories of the Grey Warden.



But Zevran on the other hand.....ugh I hated that. Now I always check the status bar.

[Jaulen]

Okay quick question here, what sort of boon endings do you guys pick?



My characters haven't done anything other than 'Rebuild the Grey Wardens.' Since by that time that's who and what they have become. It's that whole 'ever viligant' thing.

[ejoslin]

What my characters always love most about Zevran is he shares the burden -- everyone else looks to her to lead, but he stands with her, helps her make decisions, is willing to speak for the group, etc. I've said it so many times, but he is the only party member who comes off as an equal instead of a follower.

[ejoslin]

Jaulen wrote...

Okay quick question here, what sort of boon endings do you guys pick?

My characters haven't done anything other than 'Rebuild the Grey Wardens.' Since by that time that's who and what they have become. It's that whole 'ever viligant' thing.

I've played with all the endings, but ultimately I reload and rebuild the grey wardens with him.  Even as chancellor, she's rebuilding the grey wardens.  I don't like anything "for a time," when it comes to Zev.  Even though I think they reunite after a brief separation.

[Nonvita]

I don't know. On the one hand, yes, duty can keep Alistair trucking along through anything. That's obvious by the way he's able to break up with the Warden if he's made King. But on the other hand, I think that seeing another person die, in his mind probably *because* of himself, would have a strong impact on him. It's another Duncan, another time when he should have stood up for himself and refused to leave the Warden's side, but he backed down. He doesn't show *that* much emotion at the funeral, but I think he's holding it back. And I think, after that, he'd have a hard time falling in love again. Judging by how eager he is to sacrifice himself if you take him, I'd say it's much more what he really wants. It gives him a chance to save everyone else, and to free himself from a life he doesn't *really* want.

Now, I do believe his pain from the US pales in comparison to Zevran's. I'd take 1000 sad Alistairs over seeing Zevran's face and reading about his future. I tried the US just to see how it went, but because I had them both romanced I think Alistair overrode showing Zevran. Thank goodness, I've been spared so many times from such terrible things. >.<

EDIT: For my CE ending the only boon I picked was that City Elves gain representation (I know it happens anyway but that's all she wanted at that point) and to go traveling. So she got the "for a time" with Zevran, but I always read it as "traveling for a time," so I'm cool with it. It probably wasn't the most honorable thing to do, but she seriously needed some time and space to recover. More darkspawn were last on her list of things to want to deal with. And thankfully, I think the traveling thing fits in with Awakening better, since I never had the expectation that Zevran would be coming along to rebuild things anyway. Doesn't make me sad he won't be there, but it was kind of expected...

Modifié par Nonvita, 17 février 2010 - 09:16 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Okay quick question here, what sort of boon endings do you guys pick?



My characters haven't done anything other than 'Rebuild the Grey Wardens.' Since by that time that's who and what they have become. It's that whole 'ever viligant' thing.

my Arcane warrior became Teyrna of Gwaren and stayed in court since she was romancing Alistair



my Nobles tend to pick the "strip howes of all their titles and fortunes" and either go rebuild the grey wardens or stay in court



my Dwarves have asked for military support in clearing out the deep roads and returned to Orzammar



and my Rambo She Elf took the money and fortunes rewarded for saving the country and ran away

[ejoslin]

Alistair wants to sacrifice himself no matter what. He really does. He wants to sacrifice himself for his friend, for someone he's not crazy about -- he WANTS to die. Alistair is far more broken than he appears.

In order to get the buddy funeral, Alistair cannot be flagged "still in love." I think you can avoid that having him below 91+, but I'm not sure. It's safest if you've ever romanced Alistair just to make Anora solo queen if you want to see Zevran in that. Ugh. I have tons of screen shots though! I think the buddy funeral is more moving, actually. Alistair . . . really respected the grey warden. I should sacrifice my character who was at -100 hostile and see Alistair's eulogy, actually. I bet it's the same, though.

Edit: as far as endings, my Couslands always end up married to Alistair, but staying with Zevran.  Zevran does NOT like the arrangement, but is more relieved that they're at least staying together.  It's easy to miss that he's upset, I suppose, because, as Zevran does, he makes a couple of jokes, but he makes it clear, if you get beyond the "royal scandal" joke, that this is a problem, and something that needs to be discussed at a later time, if you both survive, that is.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 février 2010 - 09:20 .

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, different subject. When Zevran makes you choose between him and someone else. I STILL don't think he does so out of jealousy. But he does acknowledge that there is something more there than just casual sex. And I think he acknowledges that it's quite strong. He says, at least about Alistair, stringing him along would only hurt him (Alistair) deeply. I think he has no expectation at all that the Warden would stay with him (Zevran), but saying things like, "Let whatever it is between you and I either be honest or not at all," does imply deep feelings, I think.



So when did it stop becoming a pleasant diversion for him, I wonder. As soon as they started going to the tent? As soon as he started to care? My guess, as soon as he hit Adore and was willing to talk about Rinna (which he won't tell someone at friendzone until MUCH later) and also when he forces the warden to choose.



*sigh* I actually have grown to like the poetry reading. I hate the poem, funny as it is, but I really like that he wanted to cheer the warden up. Who else does that for her (or him)?

[Nonvita]

ejoslin wrote...

Alistair wants to sacrifice himself no matter what. He really does. He wants to sacrifice himself for his friend, for someone he's not crazy about -- he WANTS to die. Alistair is far more broken than he appears.

In order to get the buddy funeral, Alistair cannot be flagged "still in love." I think you can avoid that having him below 91+, but I'm not sure. It's safest if you've ever romanced Alistair just to make Anora solo queen if you want to see Zevran in that. Ugh. I have tons of screen shots though! I think the buddy funeral is more moving, actually. Alistair . . . really respected the grey warden. I should sacrifice my character who was at -100 hostile and see Alistair's eulogy, actually. I bet it's the same, though.

Agreed. Especially if you take him with you to the Gauntlet, it's obvious from what he says that he'd rather die than let anyone else die. He thinks the exact same way my CE did, that he's at fault for other people's deaths. Sparing Alistair to sacrifice yourself just tells him he was right all along, and that people who deserve to live more than him (and he really thinks that) will continue to die because of his failures. For people who really care about him, letting him sacrifice himself is far better than the reverse.
At least, that's my somewhat jaded view.


And believe me, I'm grateful that Alistair stopped Zevran's scene from happening. I'm grateful to Alistair for a lot of things, really. =P But I DO NOT want to ever see Zevran that sad. It was bad enough trying the breakups just to see what he says, I don't want that ending seared on my memory as well.

[Cuddlezarro]

I wasnt to thrilled with the sacrifice alistair ending to be honest its like



Anora and gang: oh whats his face died but whos cares about him go celebrate hero of ferelden you earned it!



me: but eh what about Alistair?



Anora and Gang: oh right... him who cares you saved the world! enjoy yourself

[Addai]

Jaulen wrote...

Okay quick question here, what sort of boon endings do you guys pick?

My characters haven't done anything other than 'Rebuild the Grey Wardens.' Since by that time that's who and what they have become. It's that whole 'ever viligant' thing.

The elves have always requested elven-type boons (land for the Dalish or justice for the alienage).  My human noble females... one requested the Howes be stripped of title, but that didn't really feel right to me.  It sounded like revenge against Delilah and Thomas, who are innocent bystanders.  Not that someone in that society wouldn't still want to do that- clan feuds and all.

But, my most recent HNF requested the chancellorship.  After seeing Eamon's letter in Cailan's things at Ostagar and knowing she is going to have a tough time conceiving herself, she wanted to put some distance between them and Eamon.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 février 2010 - 09:41 .

[Nonvita]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I wasnt to thrilled with the sacrifice alistair ending to be honest its like
Anora and gang: oh whats his face died but whos cares about him go celebrate hero of ferelden you earned it!
me: but eh what about Alistair?
Anora and Gang: oh right... him who cares you saved the world! enjoy yourself

Yeah, that is a bummer about it. I think if Zevran weren't there to cheer me up about things that one little elf would have released the entire fury of the blight upon the people in that room for not caring. As it stands, a little RPing can fix a lot of problems.


Oh! And the awesome bugs. I'd had Alistair engaged to Anora before the inevitable happened (don't ask me why I thought that was a good idea at the time), so when I went to talk to her afterward I got the standard "Is Alistair always like this? Will he always make these jokes?" conversation... I just wanted to yell at her, "He's dead, you undeserving ****!"

[Cuddlezarro]

I wonder what funny glitches will happen in my Alexander Cousland for king playthrough



I also wonder if the "royal scandal" dialogue is going to slightly different... good thing my boyfriends an assassin since Anora is gonna have a little "accident" once shes given birth to an heir (and if she doesnt shes still going to have an accident once an Heir of mine is born)

[Jaulen]

Yeah, I just wish you could chop off Anora's head like you can Loghain. I've only ever let Alistair do the deed once. I get way too much satisfaction of beating Loghain and then cutting off his head.

I don't know about Alistair. I think he may be in love, and devestated by the Warden's death (if romanced) but that with time, and getting married, he'll get over it. I just couldn't see Alistair, after some time having passed, NOT giving his all heart and soul to his wife. (edit: especially unhardened......hardened, he'll move on and 'look out for himself' and his happiness as the case may be)

When I did the Alistair US ending I knew it was coming, but I was still like "you're going to be king! this is partially what we fought for! And you AGREED TO IT, in fact DEMANDED it at the landsmeet, and now you're going to let it all go to waste and DIE????" I was really wishing for a 'bash Alisatir in the head and knock him out option.' Plus I really didn't like no one mentioning his sacrifice. So cold blooded.

Edit: Here's my two attempts at stories. Both short.
Alistair, Oghren and Zevran
http://www.fanfictio.../The_Last_Night
Young Tabris
http://www.fanfictio.../A_Mothers_Gift

Modifié par Jaulen, 17 février 2010 - 11:22 .

[ejoslin]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I wonder what funny glitches will happen in my Alexander Cousland for king playthrough

I also wonder if the "royal scandal" dialogue is going to slightly different... good thing my boyfriends an assassin since Anora is gonna have a little "accident" once shes given birth to an heir (and if she doesnt shes still going to have an accident once an Heir of mine is born)

The royal scandal dialog would have to be slightly different, but I bet it's pretty much the same

Zevran: Did you hear the rumors about the future queen? She has an elven fellow on the side.  Handsome, naturally.

Heh, but the way he ends that conversation, I feel crappy EVERY time.  So why do I keep doing HNF and making her marry Alistair?  Because I think a Cousland/Arainai child would be the very best type of ruler there is!

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 février 2010 - 11:35 .

[Jaulen]

But what would happen to a HFN if it was found out she's putting what's essentially a **** child in line for the throne?



Couldn't be good. Nobles are always more likely to overlook a King's daliances, but not a Queen's.

[ejoslin]

Jaulen wrote...

But what would happen to a HFN if it was found out she's putting what's essentially a **** child in line for the throne?

Couldn't be good. Nobles are always more likely to overlook a King's daliances, but not a Queen's.

Who would care?  She and Alistair cannot have a child together.  Alistair knows already that Elissa is going to be trying for an heir with someone else and knows about her and Zevran and is smart enough to put two and two together.  Plus the epilogue notes that he allows Elissa to act as she pleases.

Alistair would claim the child if he didn't make a few bastards of his own I'm sure.  Everyone goes in with their eyes wide open.

Edit: So basically you have a Cousland over highever, a Cousland over Gwaren, and a Cousland as princess-consort with a king who allows her to be the ruler.  The people love her as both their savior and new ruler.  I'm sure no one is going to challenge the companions who stay around, helping rebuild the grey wardens!

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 février 2010 - 11:39 .

[Jaulen]

Oh man, too much power to the Couslands!



haven't done HN storyline at all yet. But my PC would be worried about a potential beheading, so I'd probably not opt to be queen.....hmmm, but if I play power hungry instead.....