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What's the (Romantic) Appeal of Zevran?


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#2776
ejoslin

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Yeh, with the HN ending, there is a lot of power to be had. And you must admit that a Cousland/Arainai child would be a natural leader, very smart, and definitely royal material. Besides, many people felt Bryce Cousland should be king, so it's not like Cousland blood is not a good thing to have on the throne!

Edit: I actually think a Cousland should not be able to ask to become Teyrna of Gwaren.  It is too much power.  But Alistair grants it happily.

I actually think the person who gets most screwed in this scenario is Zevran.  *sigh* He does it because he loves the Warden that much, but any child of his would have to be raised a royal instead of as his.  Gah, for this one, I hope Alistair is still in love, in which case he will do the sacrifice. Then you just have the two Couslands both over the two Teyrnirs, and Anora having to suck up to them!  Which isn't horrible.

Isn't that odd?  I will not have Elissa and Alistair marry if he's still in love because then he falls right back in love and I like him too much as a character to do that to him.  He, in love, WOULD care that Elissa has a lover she's trying to have children with.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 février 2010 - 11:50 .


#2777
Jaulen

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When you had brought it up, my husband and I discussed the whole 'how would Zevran feel about someone else raising his child with him not being able to have much, if any, input or a aknowlegement of who/what he is to that child.' My husband thought also that it would probably crush Zevran to see someone else raising his kid, and him being relegated to a 'favorite honorary uncle' position.

Husband said he didn't know if he personally would be able to handle something like that.

Edit: Yeah, I couldn't see a married in-love Alistair (hardened or no) being okay with his wife/love being with another man, unless it was solely for procreation purposes, and maybe not even then.

Modifié par Jaulen, 17 février 2010 - 11:56 .


#2778
ejoslin

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Jaulen wrote...

When you had brought it up, my husband and I discussed the whole 'how would Zevran feel about someone else raising his child with him not being able to have much, if any, input or a aknowlegement of who/what he is to that child.' My husband thought also that it would probably crush Zevran to see someone else raising his kid, and him being relegated to a 'favorite honorary uncle' position.

Husband said he didn't know if he personally would be able to handle something like that.

Edit: Yeah, I couldn't see a married in-love Alistair (hardened or no) being okay with his wife/love being with another man, unless it was solely for procreation purposes, and maybe not even then.


Yeh, my husband says the same, actually.  Though court life is not the same as modern family life.  And it would make sense for any child to be raised in Gwaren anyway, especially if Alistair may have a child or two of his own.  

I know In Love Alistair gets REALLY mad when you suggest having a child with someone else, whereas  Friendly or Neutral Alistair seems to think it's a good idea (Should I be glad to hear that? I guess I should).

Discussions like this must really crack the writers up. 

#2779
Nonvita

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I'm so glad my HNF has no interest whatsoever in Zevran (although I wish she'd stop being so prudish to him, 2 gifts (boots included!) and several conversations in and he's only at +13...). I'll freely admit that it makes me giggle like a schoolgirl to imagine Zevran as a happy father. How terrible to think that, even if he overcame the odds with the woman he loves and had a child, it would *never* really be his, and he would have little of a relationship with it. I think you mentioned before, ejoslin, that the child wouldn't even get to know that he's the father. You are a cruel, cruel woman to do that to him (repeatedly, nonethless). =P



My girl will be marrying Alistair purely politically. Oh it was so much fun finding out he's heir to the throne (thank goodness I skipped over the Redcliffe chat with him)! She was completely stunned, as she's been ignoring him the whole time as some bastard child of Eamon's with no noble status. Well, NOW she's making sure she's at least on his good side. I think once she's able to harden him she'll respect him more, at least.



But it's been a lonely playthrough. No love from anyone. Dairren was the last man she experienced, and let's face it, that wasn't what she hoped her last lay would be. That darn Teagann turning her down really dampened her spirits. Hmm, she might get desperate and sleep with Zevran, but if she does she'll mess it all up by acting suspicious of him still. Blah, she's too complicated for me sometimes. >.<

#2780
ejoslin

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Oh, I think the child would be raised at Gwaren and would have Zevran in his life. He would have lots of contact with any child, as much as in any other circumstance I think, but he would not be able to acknowledge at least the first of them (heh, I'm ever the optimist). Again, he does not come off as at all happy about being the queen's lover, but he is relieved that at least they're still together.



My HNF always end up marrying Alistair out of duty, though. That was one of the last things her father said to her -- Couslands always do their duty. She would rather marry Zevran and try to live in obscurity, but Alistair needs a strong queen (in her mind, and she's been his leader for a long time now), and she cannot stand Anora.



Really, though, if Fergus had died, even as Teyrna of Highever, (and there was a good chance she was when these decisions were being made) her being married to an elf would cause huge controversy. It would only be her position of a grey warden and the hero of Ferelden that it may, possibly, be accepted. Noble + Zevran has lots of potential for disaster. So the royal scandal is actually not the worst case, since again, all three of them are going into the situation eyes wide open.



I definitely do not see it as a case of having one's cake and eating it too, however. I think it's tragic for everyone involved.

#2781
Nonvita

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Involvement, yes, but the child probably wouldn't get to know that Zevran is his father (if people did find out, there would be *lots* of trouble, especially since it's mainly Alistair's blood that got you on the throne in the first place). And the involvement would probably be very limited, and certainly only of a specific nature. Especially if the child were a son, he would probably be highly protected from the beginning, then have most of his time consumed by education and training of his fighting skills. I doubt there would be very much time for that elven assassin "uncle" to spend with him. But no matter what, I think the simple fact that Zevran can't acknowledge him would be the hardest part.



Ah well, he and my CE can have a little elf child who knows he's their father, so I'll take her situation over your HN's any day! XD

#2782
ejoslin

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And just who do you think would be the child's bodyguard?  A former Antivan crow, that's who. But yes, it would suck for all involved. And I agree, his being unable to acknowledge him would be the worst part. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be known privately. I mean, obviously the relationship would be a "secret" that no one talks about, but everyone knows. But Elissa has a lot more control than a princess- consort normally would. Ah well, Wynne does warn about duty and such . . .

Even a child with Alistair would not have as much contact with his parents.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 février 2010 - 12:55 .


#2783
Sresla

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The only characters I've really enjoyed playing are my mages. The first ending, I chose a boon to the Mage Tower and got the (ugh) for a time. Second time, rebuilding the Wardens but even though Zevran stayed, it still didn't seem to fit. Third time (and all the ones since), staying on in Denerim. Why? Because there's a story there (well, of course there is) as to why the two stay and what causes them to be parted, but it is ONLY for a time. Because as in all great love stories, to paraphrase, the mage rescued the assassin, who then turns around and rescues him right back.

#2784
Creature 1

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Sresla wrote...
Because as in all great love stories, to paraphrase, the mage rescued the assassin, who then turns around and rescues him right back.

Yes, lots of mutual rescuing in my mage's story as well! 

#2785
Nonvita

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@ ejoslin: Hehe, you have a point! And as long as you all go into it with eyes open, understanding that it won't be ideal for anyone, then I'm sure there's happiness to be found in it as well.

It's good to see your struggles, because sometimes I'm not sure if HN is always so darn confining and frustrating or if it's just me making it impossible to get a happy ending. It appears that it's a little of both.

EDIT: I can't play mages. I'm not sure what it is, but I haven't come up with one that I like. Maybe I just need a better story than the ones I've thought of, but it's been much harder to do that with a mage than the other classes. Plus I feel like I play a mage enough just by having Morrigan in my party. >.<

Modifié par Nonvita, 18 février 2010 - 01:15 .


#2786
ejoslin

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I think HNF is so conflicted unless you want to disregard all politics and think, "Alistair and I will live happily ever after as the perfect love match." I understand that ending, but I see so much more involved. It's a political match, one that is not ideal since they can't have children together; at best, they're delaying the civil war and preserving the Theirin blood line for 20 odd years before passing it on, probably to a Cousland as Fergus can and most likely will remarry and have children. Or the country will dissolve into civil war. At least a political match for the HNF with a lover gives a chance for either the Theirin bloodline to continue through Alistair having a mistress or allows people to believe that the bloodline is continuing with a child from Elissa and Zevran who really should be outstanding given both of their personalities, and gives the throne a strong queen (metagaming knowledge aside, our HNF has been leading the future king in gathering armies and uniting the land, no reason to believe that would change after his coronation).

It's my favorite origin because the cost really is so great. I actually think casteless dwarf gives the happiest ending, especially if you are in love with Zevran, but that's because CDF has come from the very bottom, so not only has complete freedom, but is honored in two lands, not just one. And even for an Alistair fan, CDF would definitely understand about being a king's concubine -- that's a position of great honor where she's from, and she and her sister could compare notes.

@ Sresla, I actually like your idea there about staying in Denerim "for a time." It's the ending where both Zevran and the Warden stay around for a time -- so that works very well. I just can't see them breaking up anyway -- there's too much devotion there.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 février 2010 - 01:30 .


#2787
Cuddlezarro

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I actually think casteless dwarf gives the happiest ending




it *can* give the happiest ending but...



*looks at just how screwed up poor Baren Broska's life is*



:3

#2788
ejoslin

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Heh, you're right Cuddlezarro -- the DCF (or DC most likely) has the best potential for happiness in love, but like everything else, it's not guaranteed!

#2789
Cuddlezarro

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I dont think dwarf commoner would be that different for either gender really I just cant see much changing

and even if you *dont* screw up as badly as my Baren did you still are forced to kill your best friend when you return home which is pretty awful

Id say Dwarf Noble males have it better off than females though since they have an heir to the throne before they become grey wardens (and like I said earlier in the topic I dont see female dwarf PC's getting preggers thanks to Dwarves already having low fertility rating on top of the low fertility caused by the grey wardens)

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 18 février 2010 - 03:31 .


#2790
Addai

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Nonvita wrote...

I'm so glad my HNF has no interest whatsoever in Zevran (although I wish she'd stop being so prudish to him, 2 gifts (boots included!) and several conversations in and he's only at +13...).

Really, how did you manage?  My HNM just gave Zevran the boots and I was surprised to find he was at +38 Warm.  Prior to this, all their conversations had been neutral to cool.  Aedan agreed with him that it can feel good to kill someone at times, that was about all they ever agreed on.  I was starting to wonder how people could possibly say they gave Zevran both the boots and the gloves and yet never got him out of neutral.  Granted, my HNM didn't insult him or call him a terrible person so there were no big negatives, just several -1's.

#2791
Cuddlezarro

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iv never had trouble keeping Zevrans approval up even if I wasnt romancing him just by being polite to him (though if we go by what that means on this board it means sucking up) and his approval just sky rockets for me and this is just being polite and not picking the optimal approval gain options

#2792
EccentricSage

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ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, different subject. When Zevran makes you choose between him and someone else. I STILL don't think he does so out of jealousy. But he does acknowledge that there is something more there than just casual sex. And I think he acknowledges that it's quite strong. He says, at least about Alistair, stringing him along would only hurt him (Alistair) deeply. I think he has no expectation at all that the Warden would stay with him (Zevran), but saying things like, "Let whatever it is between you and I either be honest or not at all," does imply deep feelings, I think.

So when did it stop becoming a pleasant diversion for him, I wonder. As soon as they started going to the tent? As soon as he started to care? My guess, as soon as he hit Adore and was willing to talk about Rinna (which he won't tell someone at friendzone until MUCH later) and also when he forces the warden to choose.

*sigh* I actually have grown to like the poetry reading. I hate the poem, funny as it is, but I really like that he wanted to cheer the warden up. Who else does that for her (or him)?


I agree.  My male DE was in a relationship with Morrigan, and though he started with Morrigan WELL before Zev joined us, the relationships got serious at about the same time.  I would have been better off if I'd gone to Morrigan myself and told her I had to end it... much less disapproval... but then there would have been no acknowledgement of this on Zevran's part.  It was so worth it to be able to tell him when put on the spot that I choose him, and to hear him say he's glad... even though this way Morrigan rained holy hell of disapproval on my ass.  She was still NICE about it when I spoke to her, which Zevran insisted was the right thing to do.  I knew it was, but hearing him urge me to do it, meant a lot.  Zevran, for all his teasing, really cares more about all our companions than most of them seem to care for eachother.  When I realized that, I was rather touched.  I knew I'd made, without a doubt, the right decision. When you talk to Morrigan first and let her force you... she just gets very defensive and says she won't share... 'tis not proper.  Of course she could care less about Zevran's feelings.  e__e  And when the hell did she become concerned with propriety?  Aaargh.  XD  Zevran is awkward and fearful of his emotions, but at least he's willing to show them in indirect ways.  Morrigan will flat out deceive you and... bully you... XD


I honestly think the sex meant a little more and a little more each time.  Think about it... he actually cares about our companions more than many of them do... yet it wasn't long ago that the Crows were the only family he knew.  I doubt this is just some sudden change.  I suspect even though they try to deny their feelings, some of the Crows must care about eachother... the way he speaks of the crows longingly at times despite the horrors the organization put him through... the passionate gushing about the nostalgia he felt from the smell of the Antivian Leather... the fact that Talisen, though even colder than Zevran ever was, still cared enough to be willing to lie to their superiors to bring Zevran home... I really think, there must have been these emotions under the surface all along, though he had to be stoic and lie about it.  I suspect many of the assassins are like that.  They may be killers, but they are still people.  I really do think, that my theory fits; that when he can't express his feelings because they're dangerous, he uses sex to disguise them.  I really think the sex always meant a little bit, and that little bit adds up to a lot, especially as he finds he can open up to you, and that he doesn't have to hide from you.  Eventually everything no longer has to be expressed through sex, once the Crows are out of his life, at least as long as he has you.  Though I doubt the sex will ever stop being a part of him, same as the pleasure of killing.  But he has options now.

Ah, the poem... XD  I'd heard that he'll read you a poem, and I was all 'oh, how romantic'!  You can imagine my shock when I finally got the poem scene!!!  XD  I should have saw it coming!!!  But his sentiments once we got past the 'So you had sex with her though you were going to kill her anyways? D:' dialogue, his sentiments were so sweet. 

You know, I like how, even as he softens and shows more and more of his kind heart, they still always remind you that he's not changed... he's still a killer... he's not going to regret it for you.  I love that you aren't allowed delusion, you have to choose to accept his past or not accept him at all.  It's a heady combination.  One that sometimes shakes my sweet Dalish Dristen to the core... largely because he's felt pleasure in killing, too, and he feels like some thing’s coiling inside his stomach when he thinks of someone wielding that delicious, intoxicating power without remorse.  It's an intense relationship.  But he does see the strange sense of 'mercy' in Zevran's pleasuring of his victims... he wants to believe it's true with all his heart, that a part of Zevran held compassion for his victims, even if not remorse.  It's this little factor of unknown that still sets him on edge.  But he loves his killer all the same.  Being a child of nature, he figures you can't blame a cat for being a cat, so you can't blame Zevran, ether.  I swear, I need to fanfic this.  But I need to finish more of the game, first.

#2793
ejoslin

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Edit: tired and rambling.  Too bad we can't delete posts!

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 février 2010 - 04:57 .


#2794
Nonvita

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Addai67 wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

I'm so glad my HNF has no interest whatsoever in Zevran (although I wish she'd stop being so prudish to him, 2 gifts (boots included!) and several conversations in and he's only at +13...).

Really, how did you manage?  My HNM just gave Zevran the boots and I was surprised to find he was at +38 Warm.  Prior to this, all their conversations had been neutral to cool.  Aedan agreed with him that it can feel good to kill someone at times, that was about all they ever agreed on.  I was starting to wonder how people could possibly say they gave Zevran both the boots and the gloves and yet never got him out of neutral.  Granted, my HNM didn't insult him or call him a terrible person so there were no big negatives, just several -1's.


Hehe, weeeell, since you asked... Malyan is a fighter, through and through, and a true noble. She knows how to rally people and get them on her side, but she's also quick to strike against those who go against her, and suspicious of those who she has no reason to trust. She only kept Zevran alive because she wants to use him against Loghain (she doesn't know how yet, she's just confident she'll find a way). Granted, she sees something interesting in him, since she outright killed every other Loghain supporter, so even keeping Zevran alive was unlike her.

As for the low approval, well, most conversations gave minor approval drops (I know he didn't like "I prefer a straight battle," and "So you smell a cesspool and think of home?"). The one that got me in trouble was when he called her beautiful.
Zevran: I say you are beautiful. Should I not?
Malyan: Don't bother. I'm onto you.

Bam, -10. :pinched: Ah, if only she could learn to not hold grudges... And with the boots, she gave whateverthe  "it's not that special" line is, so the approval was sliced down for that.

All things considered, +13 isn't so bad! The gloves, another gift, and changing her mind on killing the elves will bump his approval up plenty so he doesn't turn on her with Taliesan. I think once they make it through that she'll be a little more trusting of him, although it'll probably already be too late to build a strong friendship. But she'll respect him, at least...


EDIT: @ Eccentricsage, I love your story! Keep going with it because I want to hear how it turns out. :o (Someone needs a happy Zevran romance story since it obviously ain't me. >.<)

Modifié par Nonvita, 18 février 2010 - 05:45 .


#2795
Oak Tree Leaf

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Nonvita wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

I'm so glad my HNF has no interest whatsoever in Zevran (although I wish she'd stop being so prudish to him, 2 gifts (boots included!) and several conversations in and he's only at +13...).

Really, how did you manage?  My HNM just gave Zevran the boots and I was surprised to find he was at +38 Warm.  Prior to this, all their conversations had been neutral to cool.  Aedan agreed with him that it can feel good to kill someone at times, that was about all they ever agreed on.  I was starting to wonder how people could possibly say they gave Zevran both the boots and the gloves and yet never got him out of neutral.  Granted, my HNM didn't insult him or call him a terrible person so there were no big negatives, just several -1's.


Granted, she sees something interesting in him, since she outright killed every other Loghain supporter, so even keeping Zevran alive was unlike her.



Could be wrong, but I don't think zevran was ever really a loghain supporter, The crows just got paid to take some people out. xD

#2796
Addai

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Nonvita wrote...
 The one that got me in trouble was when he called her beautiful.
Zevran: I say you are beautiful. Should I not?
Malyan: Don't bother. I'm onto you.

Bam, -10. :pinched:

Wow.  Aedan got -2, I think, for his "No, but you're wasting your time."  Maybe it was bigger but I don't remember a big drop. From Zevran's response, however, he was obviously taking it to mean that A. was accusing him of trying to pull something.  He actually only meant it as an "I'm heterosexual" comment.

#2797
Nonvita

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@Oak Tree Leaf: Oh absolutely, but my character is extremely impatient with Loghain supporters, and for her, if Zevran was "dumb" enough to work for him, then he's just another Loghain minion. She was originally just going to kill him, but Zevran and his wily ways managed to show her *something* worth letting him live for...

Ah, this playthrough has been such a struggle to restrain myself. >.< The good thing is I'm getting to know Sten way better because of not concentrating on Alistair and Zevran so much... Now if only he were romanceable. =(

Modifié par Nonvita, 18 février 2010 - 05:53 .


#2798
Sabriana

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Phew! Lot's of posts to catch up on. And many wonderful pictures.
As for boons, my mage picked the mage-boon. I know, I know. Shocker, isn't it :)

Both HNF picked the Grey Warden one.

My warrior decided to shuck all nobility and politicking. She's sick and tired of it. She will be the Warden Commander of Ferelden, and Zevran will be her husband and aide in a aspects. If the Ferelden nobility doesn't like it, they can sit on it. I do think she will even tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine, and if they can't accept her choices, she'll leave Ferelden to darkspawn stragglers, and go to Anderfels. She'll tell them that she'll have fun watching the Ferelden nobility rebuild the GW. Good luck with that, ungrateful wretches.

That elf was vital to saving their combined butts, and they had better shut up. He risked his life many times for them, and they better remember that.
She will even try to give him a child, she was so charmed by his remark to Shale, she practically melted on that Orzammar bridge, and not because of the lava.

The child will of course have the blood rights of a Cousland, and she/he will be human, so we'll see what becomes of that. Alistair is king, having taken the reigns out of Anora's hands, just like he told her after the Loghain sacrifice. I loved hearing that, and so did my PC. "If Anora thinks she can rule as she pleases, she will be very surprised." (paraphrased).

My HN rogue is a bit more conniving. She will stay with Zevran and rebuild the GWs as their commander. She might or might not get married, but she will be faithful to Zevran.

I haven't played it out in my head yet how it would be if she does get pregnant. However, she has lost faith in the nobility, and I think she would take (a somewhat perverse) pleasure in challenging them. I think she's fiddling with the idea to strengthen the elves position in Ferelden. Too bad she didn't have the choice of picking the elven boon. Bummer. She's made quite a few friends in the alienage and with the dalish, so she might pull a sort-of elven boon out of her hat yet.

#2799
Sresla

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If you can't find pleasure in playing a DPS mage, I'd suggest try playing a healer instead. My first mage was a DPS mage and I just didn't enjoy it, but I love playing a healer. I feel a lot more in control of the battlefield rather than switching to Wynne to micromanage her abysmal tactics. Plus, it fits with who my mage is - why he spared Zevran and why the two make such a good team (Heroic Offense + Rejuvenate + Momentum, yum) and romantic match. I know what you're thinking, healer and assassin? Someone who saves lives matched with someone who takes them? Together though, the two are entirely too clever for their own good. Which is why they HAVE to stay in Denerim, at least for a time...

#2800
Sabriana

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My mage was a DPS mage too, and I liked it. But she was also a Spirit Healer. I have to try a pure healer, it sounds like fun. I wonder how she will react to Zevran? Hmmm.... oh, the possibilities. I know that in the end she will fall for him (all of mine do, he's so very addictive), but how will that come to pass?



@ Sresla

They HAVE to stay there? Thanks a lot, now you have me wondering and trying to figure that one out. ;)