35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

So you just don't like dwarves? I know you can have some interesting RP with a Dalish but if you just look at the origin you kill/don't kill some humans, kill a bunch of things and Tamlen touches a mirror, you find out you almost died and go look for Tamlen with some bitter and self-righteous clanmates to talk to, then you go looking for Tamlen again but to no avail and become a warden. I don't really see how that can stand up to either dwarf origin or the mage one. The HN one loses points for me because of the obligatory giant rat killings.

[sami jo]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

Wow, that's impressive. Especially considering most people think of the Dalish origin as the worst of the bunch!

Honestly, I think the mage origin is the worst of the bunch, though I love playing mages (three of the other characters I've finished were mages).  I think the dwarven origins and the city elf origin were the best done, but I don't mind the Dalish origin.  It reconnects to the story in some surprising ways and I like being able to play as a complete outsider for most of the game.  The CE origin is powerful, but all of my CEs end up just a bit too damaged to RP without breaks. 

[ejoslin]

 I agree with sami jo.  Mage origin is meh.  Dalish is fine, though a bit rushed.
Oh and i deleted my last comment, but I have to say sami jo 

[SurrealSadi]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So you just don't like dwarves? I know you can have some interesting RP with a Dalish but if you just look at the origin you kill/don't kill some humans, kill a bunch of things and Tamlen touches a mirror, you find out you almost died and go look for Tamlen with some bitter and self-righteous clanmates to talk to, then you go looking for Tamlen again but to no avail and become a warden. I don't really see how that can stand up to either dwarf origin or the mage one. The HN one loses points for me because of the obligatory giant rat killings.

I don't like or dislike the dwarf origins. I just have a hard time getting past the orangutan arms on the females, and I haven't made a male dwarf yet. If I can get myself to play my S&S HNM(one of them, I made 2), I'll make a male dwarf next.

The Dalish origin gives you a different perspective on elves than the City Elf, and what the other races see when they do the Nature of the Beast questline. City elves have given up on being free, and thus have a totally different outlook on life. The NotB questline done by the other races gives them a skewed look at the Dalish because of what Zathrian did.

[sami jo]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So you just don't like dwarves? I know you can have some interesting RP with a Dalish but if you just look at the origin you kill/don't kill some humans, kill a bunch of things and Tamlen touches a mirror, you find out you almost died and go look for Tamlen with some bitter and self-righteous clanmates to talk to, then you go looking for Tamlen again but to no avail and become a warden. I don't really see how that can stand up to either dwarf origin or the mage one. The HN one loses points for me because of the obligatory giant rat killings.

Did you miss the further conversation options with Tamlen in the ruins and the conversations about the PC's background?  Then again, as much as I love playing a mage, I absolutely ABHOR the origin.  It bores me senseless and I want to beat Irving to a bloody pulp with Jowan and Gregoir every time.  So, I suppose this is a case of different tastes.  My first character was a DEM rogue and I loved that character, so it certainly influences my choices.  I love the dwarven origins, but I just can't RP a dwarf. 

[Sarah1281]

The Nature of the Beast storyline goes beyond the origin, though, and listening to the one guy teaching the kids a history filled with bitter hatred and the condescending attitude the other elf took about the city elf that escaped the Alienage to join them irritated me as did Tamlen's 'we have to be bitter and angry and randomly kill everyone we meet even though we have to move anyway.'

[Sarah1281]

sami jo wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

So you just don't like dwarves? I know you can have some interesting RP with a Dalish but if you just look at the origin you kill/don't kill some humans, kill a bunch of things and Tamlen touches a mirror, you find out you almost died and go look for Tamlen with some bitter and self-righteous clanmates to talk to, then you go looking for Tamlen again but to no avail and become a warden. I don't really see how that can stand up to either dwarf origin or the mage one. The HN one loses points for me because of the obligatory giant rat killings.

Did you miss the further conversation options with Tamlen in the ruins and the conversations about the PC's background?  Then again, as much as I love playing a mage, I absolutely ABHOR the origin.  It bores me senseless and I want to beat Irving to a bloody pulp with Jowan and Gregoir every time.  So, I suppose this is a case of different tastes.  My first character was a DEM rogue and I loved that character, so it certainly influences my choices.  I love the dwarven origins, but I just can't RP a dwarf. 

No, I got the 'I wanted to be with you' and 'evil humans killed your father and your mother abandoned you becuase she went emo about it' conversations but I was still pissed at Tamlen for yelling at me for not killing the humans for the sole crime of stumbling across us so I didn't like him at all.

I've only played the mage origin once and I can see why it would get tedius doing again and again but I've also only done the DE origin once and I know which one took me four hours to finish despite it being as short as the HN one. And, of course, dwarves are my one true love. Really, just don't stare at the arms and you'll be fine.

[SurrealSadi]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Nature of the Beast storyline goes beyond the origin, though, and listening to the one guy teaching the kids a history filled with bitter hatred and the condescending attitude the other elf took about the city elf that escaped the Alienage to join them irritated me as did Tamlen's 'we have to be bitter and angry and randomly kill everyone we meet even though we have to move anyway.'

Remember, the Dalish have lost not one but 2 homes to Humans. They've a right to be angry and bitter, and distrust humans.

Have you read the Dune books? The Fremen are a race of people who are descended from a religious group that have been slaves and abused so badly through the history of the series universe that they have daily rituals to Remember those abuses and pains, to keep the pain and anger Fresh in their Minds, so that they Never Forget what was done, and so they will Never Forgive those that did it to them. Very similar to the Dalish.

[Sarah1281]

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Nature of the Beast storyline goes beyond the origin, though, and listening to the one guy teaching the kids a history filled with bitter hatred and the condescending attitude the other elf took about the city elf that escaped the Alienage to join them irritated me as did Tamlen's 'we have to be bitter and angry and randomly kill everyone we meet even though we have to move anyway.'

Remember, the Dalish have lost not one but 2 homes to Humans. They've a right to be angry and bitter, and distrust humans.

Have you read the Dune books? The Fremen are a race of people who are descended from a religious group that have been slaves and abused so badly through the history of the series universe that they have daily rituals to Remember those abuses and pains, to keep the pain and anger Fresh in their Minds, so that they Never Forget what was done, and so they will Never Forgive those that did it to them. Very similar to the Dalish.

Yes, centuries ago and they started the war not to mention they stood back and watched as the (second maybe?) Blight destroyed a country. No wonder the humans got pissed and destroyed their home in turn. They're insistence on being angry bitter hate-filled people is doing them no favors and only in the endings where Lanaya makes an effort to tone down the bitterness do relations improve.

And no I haven't read them.

[SurrealSadi]

Sarah1281 wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Nature of the Beast storyline goes beyond the origin, though, and listening to the one guy teaching the kids a history filled with bitter hatred and the condescending attitude the other elf took about the city elf that escaped the Alienage to join them irritated me as did Tamlen's 'we have to be bitter and angry and randomly kill everyone we meet even though we have to move anyway.'

Remember, the Dalish have lost not one but 2 homes to Humans. They've a right to be angry and bitter, and distrust humans.

Have you read the Dune books? The Fremen are a race of people who are descended from a religious group that have been slaves and abused so badly through the history of the series universe that they have daily rituals to Remember those abuses and pains, to keep the pain and anger Fresh in their Minds, so that they Never Forget what was done, and so they will Never Forgive those that did it to them. Very similar to the Dalish.

Yes, centuries ago and they started the war not to mention they stood back and watched as the (second maybe?) Blight destroyed a country. No wonder the humans got pissed and destroyed their home in turn. They're insistence on being angry bitter hate-filled people is doing them no favors and only in the endings where Lanaya makes an effort to tone down the bitterness do relations improve.

And no I haven't read them.

Which war did they start? Because if mean the Exalted March against the Tevinter, that was Andraste. If you mean the war that destroyed Arlathan, it's never clearly stated who started it. I was under the assumption that Arlathan was defending itself from Tevinter.

[sami jo]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Nature of the Beast storyline goes beyond the origin, though, and listening to the one guy teaching the kids a history filled with bitter hatred and the condescending attitude the other elf took about the city elf that escaped the Alienage to join them irritated me as did Tamlen's 'we have to be bitter and angry and randomly kill everyone we meet even though we have to move anyway.'

Your PC's father had been your clan's keeper, though; and had pushed for more contact and understanding with the other races.  He was also killed by a group of bandits that included city elves, so distrust of city elves among the Dalish is understandable.  You can comment on the storyteller's nastiness and he isn't nearly as nasty if you are Dalish.  I never saw Tamlen as bitter or angry.  His conversations in the ruins actually cast him more as a bit adventurous and mischevious.  And he was right about the shemlen--if you let them go, they rouse the nearest village against you.  Elves from any origin have good reason to dislike and distrust humans.  The only group in the game that doesn't fail miserably in race relations is the mages, and that is mostly because human mages are just as reviled as elven mages.  Peronally, I have low tolerance for the city elves' and mages acceptance of their situation, low tolerance for the humans' superiority complex and low tolerance for the xenophobia expressed by the Dalish and the dwarves. 

Edited grammar fail.

Modifié par sami jo, 20 mai 2010 - 04:46 .

[sami jo]

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Nature of the Beast storyline goes beyond the origin, though, and listening to the one guy teaching the kids a history filled with bitter hatred and the condescending attitude the other elf took about the city elf that escaped the Alienage to join them irritated me as did Tamlen's 'we have to be bitter and angry and randomly kill everyone we meet even though we have to move anyway.'

Remember, the Dalish have lost not one but 2 homes to Humans. They've a right to be angry and bitter, and distrust humans.

Have you read the Dune books? The Fremen are a race of people who are descended from a religious group that have been slaves and abused so badly through the history of the series universe that they have daily rituals to Remember those abuses and pains, to keep the pain and anger Fresh in their Minds, so that they Never Forget what was done, and so they will Never Forgive those that did it to them. Very similar to the Dalish.

Yes, centuries ago and they started the war not to mention they stood back and watched as the (second maybe?) Blight destroyed a country. No wonder the humans got pissed and destroyed their home in turn. They're insistence on being angry bitter hate-filled people is doing them no favors and only in the endings where Lanaya makes an effort to tone down the bitterness do relations improve.

And no I haven't read them.

Which war did they start? Because if mean the Exalted March against the Tevinter, that was Andraste. If you mean the war that destroyed Arlathan, it's never clearly stated who started it. I was under the assumption that Arlathan was defending itself from Tevinter.

Master Ilen says that the Dalish attacked first during the Exalted March on the Dales, saying that the humans were going to attack, but the Dalish attacked first and struck fear in the hearts of the humans before they were driven from the Dales.  (It's when he talks about the origin of his father's bow).  So technically, they did start the war, though it is unclear whether the humans had already been planning to attack.

[SurrealSadi]

sami jo wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Nature of the Beast storyline goes beyond the origin, though, and listening to the one guy teaching the kids a history filled with bitter hatred and the condescending attitude the other elf took about the city elf that escaped the Alienage to join them irritated me as did Tamlen's 'we have to be bitter and angry and randomly kill everyone we meet even though we have to move anyway.'

Remember, the Dalish have lost not one but 2 homes to Humans. They've a right to be angry and bitter, and distrust humans.

Have you read the Dune books? The Fremen are a race of people who are descended from a religious group that have been slaves and abused so badly through the history of the series universe that they have daily rituals to Remember those abuses and pains, to keep the pain and anger Fresh in their Minds, so that they Never Forget what was done, and so they will Never Forgive those that did it to them. Very similar to the Dalish.

Yes, centuries ago and they started the war not to mention they stood back and watched as the (second maybe?) Blight destroyed a country. No wonder the humans got pissed and destroyed their home in turn. They're insistence on being angry bitter hate-filled people is doing them no favors and only in the endings where Lanaya makes an effort to tone down the bitterness do relations improve.

And no I haven't read them.

Which war did they start? Because if mean the Exalted March against the Tevinter, that was Andraste. If you mean the war that destroyed Arlathan, it's never clearly stated who started it. I was under the assumption that Arlathan was defending itself from Tevinter.

Master Ilen says that the Dalish attacked first during the Exalted March on the Dales, saying that the humans were going to attack, but the Dalish attacked first and struck fear in the hearts of the humans before they were driven from the Dales.  (It's when he talks about the origin of his father's bow).  So technically, they did start the war, though it is unclear whether the humans had already been planning to attack.

Ah. I've nver asked the history of the Bow, so I missed that conversation.

[sami jo]

Sarah1281 wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Nature of the Beast storyline goes beyond the origin, though, and listening to the one guy teaching the kids a history filled with bitter hatred and the condescending attitude the other elf took about the city elf that escaped the Alienage to join them irritated me as did Tamlen's 'we have to be bitter and angry and randomly kill everyone we meet even though we have to move anyway.'

Remember, the Dalish have lost not one but 2 homes to Humans. They've a right to be angry and bitter, and distrust humans.

Have you read the Dune books? The Fremen are a race of people who are descended from a religious group that have been slaves and abused so badly through the history of the series universe that they have daily rituals to Remember those abuses and pains, to keep the pain and anger Fresh in their Minds, so that they Never Forget what was done, and so they will Never Forgive those that did it to them. Very similar to the Dalish.

Yes, centuries ago and they started the war not to mention they stood back and watched as the (second maybe?) Blight destroyed a country. No wonder the humans got pissed and destroyed their home in turn. They're insistence on being angry bitter hate-filled people is doing them no favors and only in the endings where Lanaya makes an effort to tone down the bitterness do relations improve.

And no I haven't read them.

Where did you get that?   There were Dalish in the Grey Wardens through the last blight...in fact it was and ELF who killed the last archdemon.

[sami jo]

Elps wrote...

I've tried and tried to RP a dwarf and just can't get through a game. I got as far as Ostagar with a DC, and as far as the landsmeet with a DN. I love the politics of DN but cannot identify with my character.

The Origin I really want to play is a Dalish mage. Circle mages have to be city elves & that's fair enough since no self-respecting Dalish would ever send their child to the tower. There's a mod for this but its got a number of dialogue issues and no B2B available for anyone to help with this. IMO, Bioware should have included that in the original game.

Aside from some weirdness at the Circle Tower, the Dalish Mage mod works perfectly. 

[Sarah1281]

sami jo wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Nature of the Beast storyline goes beyond the origin, though, and listening to the one guy teaching the kids a history filled with bitter hatred and the condescending attitude the other elf took about the city elf that escaped the Alienage to join them irritated me as did Tamlen's 'we have to be bitter and angry and randomly kill everyone we meet even though we have to move anyway.'

Your PC's father had been your clan's keeper, though; and had pushed for more contact and understanding with the other races.  He was also killed by a group of bandits that included city elves, so distrust of city elves among the Dalish is understandable.  You can comment on the storyteller's nastiness and he isn't nearly as nasty if you are Dalish.  I never saw Tamlen as bitter or angry.  His conversations in the ruins actually cast him more as a bit adventurous and mischevious.  And he was right about the shemlen--if you let them go, they rouse the nearest village against you.  Elves from any origin have good reason to dislike and distrust humans.  The only group in the game that doesn't fail miserably in race relations is the mages, and that is mostly because human mages are just as reviled as elven mages.  Peronally, I have low tolerance for the city elves' and mages acceptance of their situation, the low tolerance for the humans' superiority complex and low tolerance for the xenophobia expressed by the Dalish and the dwarves. 

You can distust people without acting like they aren't even real elves (which they say in the game) and acting like they are barely worth their time. Tamlen gets bitter and angry when you let the humans go and regardless of what you do on that front then you still have to move so it's just pointless death. The Dalish can't use one group of people killing one clan leader as an excuse to spit all over what he was trying to accomplish and go on hating non-Dalish forever. And I'm not saying that they shouldn't dislike humans but they're just so over-the-top about it even if you're a non-Dalish elf or a dwarf just because you're an outsider. How is being overly rude necessary for their survival? And the mages kind of have to accept their situation due to their phylactories so I give them a pass on that one.

Which war did they start? Because if mean the Exalted March against the Tevinter, that was Andraste. If you mean the war that destroyed Arlathan, it's never clearly stated who started it. I was under the assumption that Arlathan was defending itself from Tevinter.

I don't remember but when you talk to the bitter storyteller at Zathrian's clan then he tells you his own angry hate-filled origin story of the Dalish and if you point out that he started whatever war he's talking about he admits to it but then says something about how it didn't justify what happened next. And again, doing nothing while a neighboring country was consumed by a Blight? It's understandable that once they recovered they went after the Dales.

[SurrealSadi]

Elps wrote...

I've tried and tried to RP a dwarf and just can't get through a game. I got as far as Ostagar with a DC, and as far as the landsmeet with a DN. I love the politics of DN but cannot identify with my character.

The Origin I really want to play is a Dalish mage. Circle mages have to be city elves & that's fair enough since no self-respecting Dalish would ever send their child to the tower. There's a mod for this but its got a number of dialogue issues and no B2B available for anyone to help with this. IMO, Bioware should have included that in the original game.

I recall someone, I think David Gaider himself, said that they had wanted to include a Dalish Mage origin, but because the Keepers use a different magic than Circle mages, they would have to write a whole new coding scheme for them. That's why Zathrian and Merrill have Circle Mage skills, not unique skills.

[Sarah1281]

sami jo wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Nature of the Beast storyline goes beyond the origin, though, and listening to the one guy teaching the kids a history filled with bitter hatred and the condescending attitude the other elf took about the city elf that escaped the Alienage to join them irritated me as did Tamlen's 'we have to be bitter and angry and randomly kill everyone we meet even though we have to move anyway.'

Remember, the Dalish have lost not one but 2 homes to Humans. They've a right to be angry and bitter, and distrust humans.

Have you read the Dune books? The Fremen are a race of people who are descended from a religious group that have been slaves and abused so badly through the history of the series universe that they have daily rituals to Remember those abuses and pains, to keep the pain and anger Fresh in their Minds, so that they Never Forget what was done, and so they will Never Forgive those that did it to them. Very similar to the Dalish.

Yes, centuries ago and they started the war not to mention they stood back and watched as the (second maybe?) Blight destroyed a country. No wonder the humans got pissed and destroyed their home in turn. They're insistence on being angry bitter hate-filled people is doing them no favors and only in the endings where Lanaya makes an effort to tone down the bitterness do relations improve.

And no I haven't read them.

Where did you get that?   There were Dalish in the Grey Wardens through the last blight...in fact it was and ELF who killed the last archdemon.

It wasn't the last one (the fourth) and like I said, I think it was the second. In fact, I found the info on the wiki:

In their attempt to regain the lost glory of Elvhenan, the elves cut themselves off from their human neighbours. Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of the Divine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. Border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. By 2:10 Glory, elven forces had captured Montsimmard and were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux.

At this point, the Chantry called for a holy war against the elves that became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sacked Val Royeaux and pushed well into human lands, Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The Dales were appropriated by the Orlesians, who uprooted elven settlements and forbade worship of the elven gods[3]. Elves who accepted the Chantry's offered truce were required to accept the Maker and live in ghettos, known as Alienages, within human settlements, becoming the City Elves. Some elves, however, refused to give up their worship or their dream of their own homeland. These became the Dalish, retaining the name of their second lost homeland and vowing to keep elven language, lore and religion alive.

[SurrealSadi]

It was alleged that they just watched. That means there was no proof. As for the issues between Orlais and the Dales, it's likely the Chantry incited a lot of it. The Chantry obviously has issues with other races worshiping something or someone other than the Maker and his Bride.

Edit: And before I start getting another headache, I'm going to go lie down and try to get some more sleep.

Modifié par SurrealSadi, 20 mai 2010 - 04:53 .

[Darthnemesis2]

Just to kinda cut into the whole Dalish elf debate. The 'war' that Ilen says the Dalish started was when they came to Ferelden, not the exalted march. They fought some poeple known as the Clayne as I recall.

[Sarah1281]

SurrealSadi wrote...

It was alleged that they just watched. That means there was no proof. As for the issues between Orlais and the Dales, it's likely the Chantry incited a lot of it. The Chantry obviously has issues with other races worshiping something or someone other than the Maker and his Bride.

Edit: And before I start getting another headache, I'm going to go lie down and try to get some more sleep.

It doesn't matter if they really literally stood by watching. It is a fact that when the Blight came they did nothing to help despite pleas for assistance (or else they wouldn't have been considered neutral and unhelpful) and given the damage the Blight did and the years it took to put them down I can't say the Dalish were innocent victims in the loss of their homeland although, of course, the humans went way overboard.

[Sarah1281]

Elps wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Elves from any origin have good reason to dislike and distrust humans.  The only group in the game that doesn't fail miserably in race relations is the mages, and that is mostly because human mages are just as reviled as elven mages.  Peronally, I have low tolerance for the city elves' and mages acceptance of their situation, the low tolerance for the humans' superiority complex and low tolerance for the xenophobia expressed by the Dalish and the dwarves.  

This hits on the key issue I have with RPíng in this game. I had no problem RPíng a human female that married Alistair and had Zevran on the side, and no problems with RPíng either a Dalish or City Elf falling for Zevran. CE female with Alistair was a no go, considering the origin story, and for my dwarves there are just no romance options. Yuck! Humans - blerch! Dwarves with elves are just as much as a no-go. 

I know people role play differently but, for me, getting right into the lore meant some of the nicer aspects of the game had to be sacrificed if I wanted to play some of the origins.

My DN was in love with Gorim and once she found out he was married spent the rest of the game getting over him so it would be less awkward when they returned to Orzammar together and my DC couldn't be with a dwarf because of all the men I RP Kalah as doing and Rica had to. She went with Alistair because Zevran reminded her too much of herself but was too proud to be a mistress so ended up alone.