35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Jess]

@Elps I like that point of view. Very well said. And it's one of the few times you see comaraderie in the group at all. Morrigan kind of snarks at everyone, Oghren insults everyone, Shayle is...better than everyone, Leliana...oh lord she well I'm sorry, she annoys everyone! Zev's the only one that actually is nice to everyone. And Alistair seems to look down on him LESS than the rest do. I can't have Wynne in the group with Zev most of the time, I usually want to stick her staff somewhere very unpleasant and sideways.

[Creature 1]

UpiH wrote...

Has anyone asked the writers, why were they left out, then? Is it an oversight, are they really out of character? I haven't seen/heard them but if they add to a character, I'd like to see them no matter whether I liked them or not or deemed them in-character or not.

If they're OoC, how can they add to the character?  Last I heard the consensus here was Wynne's banter in RtO was OoC, the weird handling of characters in that is one reason I haven't bought it.  It doesn't add to her to have her suddenly making inexplicable comments, it just makes you want to smack the writers. 

The writers didn't get some strange version of papal infallibility.  It's obvious from a lot of Zevran's dialogue that they were making stuff up as they went along.  I'm sure some of the dialogue written at the beginning would not have been written at the end of game development, as they were still getting their crap together. 

[ejoslin]

UpiH wrote...

Has anyone asked the writers, why were they left out, then? Is it an oversight, are they really out of character? I haven't seen/heard them but if they add to a character, I'd like to see them no matter whether I liked them or not or deemed them in-character or not.

I'll tell you why they weren't triggering.  You can decide if this is a bug or deliberate.  The condition for them to trigger (all of the dialogs) was set to Wynne being second in the array instead of Zevran.  It's one off -- whoever was entering the conditions probably just messed it up (VERY easy to do when rushing through as it's a pulldown menu).  There are other instances of this happening.  For instance, a persuade check with Ser Cauthrien had it set for high poison instead of very high persuade (again, one off from a pulldown menu).

Edit: If it was a condition set to just those two banters this banter that caused them it not to trigger, ok, I can see that maybe they were it was taken out deliberately.  But the other five six, there's just nothing in them that's even controversial.

Second edit: Because of WHY they aren't in the game, I don't believe they were deliberately taken out.  Some of the unreachable dialogs, it's pretty obvious it was deliberate (a Morrigan one that they ran out of time on, for instance, and took it out instead of fixing it properly).  This one, if they were deliberately taking it out of the game, you would think they would set the condition to false.  Or something.  But just being one off from a pulldown menu, that screams "user error."

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 mai 2010 - 04:08 .

[Creature 1]

Oh, and one reason I think it is OoC is because Alistair is not concerned with sucking up to Zevran.  In most other conversations he's suspicious or polite but not buddy-buddy.  That conversation doesn't seem to fit.  And no, it's not because I put Alistair on a pedestal.  (<_< at lack of eye-rolling emoticon)

[Sarah1281]

Does that mean in the unmodded game you need to have high poison to persuade her? I've never had a problem an I have no idea what my poison skill is like...

[Creature 1]

Elps wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Has anyone asked the writers, why were they left out, then? Is it an oversight, are they really out of character? I haven't seen/heard them but if they add to a character, I'd like to see them no matter whether I liked them or not or deemed them in-character or not.

It's not commented in the code to indicate it was removed & the trigger is bugged the same way other dialog that is definitely meant to be in is bugged.

It seems I am in a minority of liking the dog banter. Strangely, it makes me like Alistair more. It gives a clue that he is not entirely goody two shoes & serves as a reminder that he is a multidimensional man, flaws and all. 

You really needed a reminder that Alistair's flawed?? 

[TanithAeyrs]

ejoslin wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Has anyone asked the writers, why were they left out, then? Is it an oversight, are they really out of character? I haven't seen/heard them but if they add to a character, I'd like to see them no matter whether I liked them or not or deemed them in-character or not.

I'll tell you why they weren't triggering.  You can decide if this is a bug or deliberate.  The condition for them to trigger (all of the dialogs) was set to Wynne being second in the array instead of Zevran.  It's one off -- whoever was entering the conditions probably just messed it up (VERY easy to do when rushing through as it's a pulldown menu).  There are other instances of this happening.  For instance, a persuade check with Ser Cauthrien had it set for high poison instead of very high persuade (again, one off from a pulldown menu).

Edit: If it was a condition set to just those two banters that caused them not to trigger, ok, I can see that maybe they were taken out deliberately.  But the other five, there's just nothing in them that's even controversial.

I thought the banters were fine.  The dog banter was a little harsh, but two guys talking...yeah, they would say it.  Gods, we have much worse conversations at work all the time (although in the opposite direction - the one guy at our clinic gets a lot of harassment).

[ejoslin]

Those conversations happen, though, at a later time. They're some of the last that come up in the Alistair/Zevran banters. It doesn't sound to me like a suck-up conversation, though. It sounds like a couple of young guys being, well, young guys. I also find the "ferelden dogs" banter VERY funny. Urg, both comments are in that one banter. *sigh* I guess I'm tired.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 mai 2010 - 04:09 .

[ejoslin]

 Oh, here's the seventh.  Alistair with his future bride and her lover!  Of course, the conversation isn't really about that.  But I thought that was funny anyway!

[TanithAeyrs]

ejoslin wrote...

 Oh, here's the seventh.  Alistair with his future bride and her lover!  Of course, the conversation isn't really about that.  But I thought that was funny anyway!

LOL, that was funny.  I think our good Chantry brother needs to write another book : "Antivan Elections: The Blood Runs Thick"

[UpiH]

Creature 1 wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Has anyone asked the writers, why were they left out, then? Is it an oversight, are they really out of character? I haven't seen/heard them but if they add to a character, I'd like to see them no matter whether I liked them or not or deemed them in-character or not.

If they're OoC, how can they add to the character?  Last I heard the consensus here was Wynne's banter in RtO was OoC, the weird handling of characters in that is one reason I haven't bought it.  It doesn't add to her to have her suddenly making inexplicable comments, it just makes you want to smack the writers. 

The writers didn't get some strange version of papal infallibility.  It's obvious from a lot of Zevran's dialogue that they were making stuff up as they went along.  I'm sure some of the dialogue written at the beginning would not have been written at the end of game development, as they were still getting their crap together. 

They aren't OoC just because you or me decided to make it so. There cannot be some kind of High Council of Enlightened Players who decide what kind of lines there should be or not. It appears to me, there isn't even a consensus, so what's left is to abide by the lines that are there and make the best out of them. That's how many theatre/movie directors do. They don't necessarily cut the lines they don't like but change the emphasis etc. You can do that as well while playing. I shudder at the thought of for instance consensus-based Hamlet, Macbeth or Godfather and whatnot.

[Aroihkin]

Ha, that's the banter I referenced recently, in the Proving. XD I love it.

Edit: Elps' quotes are all messed up at the top of the page. I don't find the dog banter OOC, and would in fact be the person that quote was replying to.

*just clarifies*

Modifié par Aroihkin, 23 mai 2010 - 04:16 .

[TanithAeyrs]

Aroihkin wrote...

Ha, that's the banter I referenced recently, in the Proving. XD I love it.

I thought it seemed familiar. 

Aro, I was sorry to hear about your fire the other day.  I hope everything turned out okay and you didn't have too many problems from being out in the sun.  By the way, the new art is looking great.

Oh, and since you are an Elizabeth Moon fan, have you finished "Oath of Fealty" yet?  I was so excited to find out that she had written another Paks book. 

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

They feel the ferelden dog banter is out of character for both men, and the wrong order comment is out of character for Alistair.  I've gotten more complaints about the ferelden dog banter, really.  I don't think either is out of character, TBH. 

I'd leave these in. Fairly sure some out there may also believe it'd be completely out of character for either of these men to fart in presence of a woman but... well, boys will be boys.

[UpiH]

I don't particulary like being misquoted, and I don't think anyone else would. I can sound very confusing on my own. Mistakes happen, that's for sure but for that there's the editing option which in turn could cause confusion as well...

Oh well, anyways imho, those banters should be included.

This way or that way,  afaiac I trust Ejoslin's judgment and leave it up to her.

Modifié par UpiH, 23 mai 2010 - 04:32 .

[Creature 1]

UpiH wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Has anyone asked the writers, why were they left out, then? Is it an oversight, are they really out of character? I haven't seen/heard them but if they add to a character, I'd like to see them no matter whether I liked them or not or deemed them in-character or not.

If they're OoC, how can they add to the character?  Last I heard the consensus here was Wynne's banter in RtO was OoC, the weird handling of characters in that is one reason I haven't bought it.  It doesn't add to her to have her suddenly making inexplicable comments, it just makes you want to smack the writers. 

The writers didn't get some strange version of papal infallibility.  It's obvious from a lot of Zevran's dialogue that they were making stuff up as they went along.  I'm sure some of the dialogue written at the beginning would not have been written at the end of game development, as they were still getting their crap together. 

They aren't OoC just because you or me decided to make it so. There cannot be some kind of High Council of Enlightened Players who decide what kind of lines there should be or not. It appears to me, there isn't even a consensus, so what's left is to abide by the lines that are there and make the best out of them. That's how many theatre/movie directors do. They don't necessarily cut the lines they don't like but change the emphasis etc. You can do that as well while playing. I shudder at the thought of for instance consensus-based Hamlet, Macbeth or Godfather and whatnot.

I have little use for consensus, which is why I am apparently going against the consensus now, although earlier it was with me.  *shrugs*  It isn't the first time I've gone against the majority on this thread.  

Edit:  And lest anyone mistake my objection as due to my being too *nice*, let me remind you my previous failure to toe the line was my opinion that Zevran was essentially a rapist. 

Modifié par Creature 1, 23 mai 2010 - 04:40 .

[ejoslin]

 The way I look at it -- all the dialogs were out of the game, not deliberately, but because of a bug.  There are even conditions set to things further in some of the dialogs (if Alistair is romanced, there's a different branch in the "what are your intentions" dialog).
If there was anything to indicate that the dialogs were taken out, or any indication that that particular one was going to be removed, I'd go with it.  It would be very easy to remove just that one dialog.  I just find it incredibly hard to believe that 7 banters, 6 of them unoffensive, were removed for no reason since there are no technical issues with them.

And then there's this banter between Zevran and Leliana:
Leliana: Zevran, I saw you looking at that girl in town earlier. What did you think of her?
Zevran: My dear Leliana, which girl? I saw many and I watched them all.
Leliana: You know, the one with the... with the shoes!
Zevran: The shoes. Yes, good reference.
Leliana: Well, she also had blond curls worn in a long braid.
Zevran: A braid? Oh, that one. Yes, I remember her.
Leliana: So, what did you think? You seemed quite enthralled.
Zevran: Well, she was... quite marvelous... except for the butter face.
Leliana: The butter what?
Zevran: Butter face. Everything's marvelous but her face.
Leliana: You're a bad man.

Edit: It looked normal until I posted!

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 mai 2010 - 04:50 .

[Sarah1281]

Edit: And lest anyone mistake my objection as due to my being too *nice*, let me remind you my previous failure to toe the line was my opinion that Zevran was essentially a rapist.

Wait...so you're a Zevran fan even though you think he's a rapist? If I thought that I probably wouldn't like the character...

[Aroihkin]

TanithAeyrs wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Ha, that's the banter I referenced recently, in the Proving. XD I love it.

I thought it seemed familiar. 

Aro, I was sorry to hear about your fire the other day.  I hope everything turned out okay and you didn't have too many problems from being out in the sun.  By the way, the new art is looking great.

Oh, and since you are an Elizabeth Moon fan, have you finished "Oath of Fealty" yet?  I was so excited to find out that she had written another Paks book. 

If it's recent, then no. I haven't been able to read novels in years now, not even by my favorite author.

I seem to have dodged the bullet with the sun issue, probably because I drugged myself about a week ago and reset some of the damage I had at the time from indirect sunlight. So it fried mostly-healthy flesh instead of otherwise. It seems to have mostly left me alone after the initial crispy sensation, though.

And yay art, lol. I'm trying to figure out how to handle the next chapter of IO, so drawing it is for now. I may have to handle Hespith/Broodmother indirectly just to move the story.

[UpiH]

ejoslin wrote...

 The way I look at it -- all the dialogs were out of the game, not deliberately, but because of a bug.  There are even conditions set to things further in some of the dialogs (if Alistair is romanced, there's a different branch in the "what are your intentions" dialog).
If there was anything to indicate that the dialogs were taken out, or any indication that that particular one was going to be removed, I'd go with it.  It would be very easy to remove just that one dialog.  I just find it incredibly hard to believe that 7 banters, 6 of them unoffensive, were removed for no reason since there are no technical issues with them.

And then there's this banter between Zevran and Leliana:
Leliana: Zevran, I saw you looking at that girl in town earlier. What did you think of her?
Zevran: My dear Leliana, which girl? I saw many and I watched them all.
Leliana: You know, the one with the... with the shoes!
Zevran: The shoes. Yes, good reference.
Leliana: Well, she also had blond curls worn in a long braid.
Zevran: A braid? Oh, that one. Yes, I remember her.
Leliana: So, what did you think? You seemed quite enthralled.
Zevran: Well, she was... quite marvelous... except for the butter face.
Leliana: The butter what?
Zevran: Butter face. Everything's marvelous but her face.
Leliana: You're a bad man.

That's a riot.

Modifié par UpiH, 23 mai 2010 - 04:59 .

[Lady Jess]

ejoslin wrote...

 The way I look at it -- all the dialogs were out of the game, not deliberately, but because of a bug.  There are even conditions set to things further in some of the dialogs (if Alistair is romanced, there's a different branch in the "what are your intentions" dialog).
If there was anything to indicate that the dialogs were taken out, or any indication that that particular one was going to be removed, I'd go with it.  It would be very easy to remove just that one dialog.  I just find it incredibly hard to believe that 7 banters, 6 of them unoffensive, were removed for no reason since there are no technical issues with them.

And then there's this banter between Zevran and Leliana:
Leliana: Zevran, I saw you looking at that girl in town earlier. What did you think of her?
Zevran: My dear Leliana, which girl? I saw many and I watched them all.
Leliana: You know, the one with the... with the shoes!
Zevran: The shoes. Yes, good reference.
Leliana: Well, she also had blond curls worn in a long braid.
Zevran: A braid? Oh, that one. Yes, I remember her.
Leliana: So, what did you think? You seemed quite enthralled.
Zevran: Well, she was... quite marvelous... except for the butter face.
Leliana: The butter what?
Zevran: Butter face. Everything's marvelous but her face.
Leliana: You're a bad man.

Edit: It looked normal until I posted!

I've actually heard that one in game, it cracked me up.

[sami jo]

ejoslin wrote...

I have a question about mods. I'm considering modding zevran_main.dlg but two things are stopping me. First is, I'll have to make four versions -- one for Vanilla, one for DT, one for ZevRing, and one for DT-ZevRing. There are different bugs in all four, plus I'd like every line in the first time sexytime to lead to a kiss AND I'd like to change the dialog at the end when he's declaring his friendship -- I'd like the romance starter line, if you're already in love, to lead to the friendship line (I consider you more than a friend) as he should already know that if the two are in a relationship.

The other thing that is stopping me is qwinn1234's fixmod. I have a feeling that if I do this, and I make four versions, and it IS time consuming to do this (though not so bad), he will "discover" the major Zevran bugs and also do his best to make those obsolete therefore making doing this a waste of my time.

So, opinions? Would something like this be appreciated and at least used for awhile? Or should I just let it go? The other problem is, if I DON'T address the bugs, my guess is Qwinn1234 won't "find" them. *sigh* Am I sounding whiny?

I am ridiculously late in replying to this, but I would love you even more if you did.  I won't use a thing Qwinn puts out.  He rubs me entirely the wrong way.