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[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Edit: And lest anyone mistake my objection as due to my being too *nice*, let me remind you my previous failure to toe the line was my opinion that Zevran was essentially a rapist.

Wait...so you're a Zevran fan even though you think he's a rapist? If I thought that I probably wouldn't like the character...

I've heard alot ofthings said about Zev, that he's sleazy, womanizing, blah blah the list goes on. But this...this I have never heard.

[Aroihkin]

Yeah, the butterface banter is part of what I had in mind when Zev got a good look at Alley and went "Wow, that's an ugly elf!". He doesn't find everyone and anyone hot; he just usually finds the Warden hot because the game doesn't know if you didn't try to make the Warden a looker.So it just assumes every PC is beautiful/handsome, and moves on from there.

Under normal circumstances, Alley is not someone Zev would pick out of a crowd to try to hop into bed with.

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Edit: And lest anyone mistake my objection as due to my being too *nice*, let me remind you my previous failure to toe the line was my opinion that Zevran was essentially a rapist.

Wait...so you're a Zevran fan even though you think he's a rapist? If I thought that I probably wouldn't like the character...

I've heard alot ofthings said about Zev, that he's sleazy, womanizing, blah blah the list goes on. But this...this I have never heard.

I think the 'rapist' part is in questioning how much consent the women who slept with him trying to get him to spare their lives really gave.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Edit: And lest anyone mistake my objection as due to my being too *nice*, let me remind you my previous failure to toe the line was my opinion that Zevran was essentially a rapist.

Wait...so you're a Zevran fan even though you think he's a rapist? If I thought that I probably wouldn't like the character...

I've heard alot ofthings said about Zev, that he's sleazy, womanizing, blah blah the list goes on. But this...this I have never heard.

I think the 'rapist' part is in questioning how much consent the women who slept with him trying to get him to spare their lives really gave.

I get the impression the women were consensual, and some tried to use it as an opportunity to kill him during the act.

But the idea of women begging for their lives via sexual acts, and Zev 'letting it happen' even though he has no intention of sparing them...might not be rape, but it's still not nice. :/

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Elps wrote...
Sex is used all the time, by both sexes, to get  what they want. For Zevran and Leiliana its so they can get close to
their marks and get the marks to let their guard down. This kind of  thing is not uncommon in our societies too and was used to great effect  during the Cold War.

People have sexual relationships for love,  money, status, security, to end arguments - any number of things. Zev
using sex to get his marks off guard is no different from his marks  using sex to catch the assassin off guard. Using sex to get a man to do  something for a woman is a ploy that is as old as the hills. It's not rape if two people consent, even if the motivations for the act have nothing to do with good intentions.

Oh, all true and  no argument from me. Just unpleasant from a (or my) moral perspective.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 23 mai 2010 - 06:15 .

[Aroihkin]

Elps pretty much hit it on the head for me.

Now, in an effort to change the subject before people start clawing for one another's eyes, have ten minutes of Zevran snarking on the party. Included a few with responses you only hear if other members are in the group, but all the responses in the vid.

I had to leave out much awesomeness, like Leliana telling Zev to drop his pants, but I think I got a good range of Zev!snark there. It's mostly to link folks from that RP game to, since none of them have freaking played Dragoon Age. (I know, what kind of people are they? ...lol)

[Sarah1281]

Aroihkin wrote...

Elps pretty much hit it on the head for me.
Now, in an effort to change the subject before people start clawing for one another's eyes, have ten minutes of Zevran snarking on the party. Included a few with responses you only hear if other members are in the group, but all the responses in the vid.
I had to leave out much awesomeness, like Leliana telling Zev to drop his pants, but I think I got a good range of Zev!snark there. It's mostly to link folks from that RP game to, since none of them have freaking played Dragoon Age. (I know, what kind of people are they? ...lol)

 Great video. Of course, Zevran just had to go for dwarf-mocking towards the end...

[Aroihkin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Elps pretty much hit it on the head for me.
Now, in an effort to change the subject before people start clawing for one another's eyes, have ten minutes of Zevran snarking on the party. Included a few with responses you only hear if other members are in the group, but all the responses in the vid.
I had to leave out much awesomeness, like Leliana telling Zev to drop his pants, but I think I got a good range of Zev!snark there. It's mostly to link folks from that RP game to, since none of them have freaking played Dragoon Age. (I know, what kind of people are they? ...lol)

 Great video. Of course, Zevran just had to go for dwarf-mocking towards the end...

He's an equal-opportunity mocker!

[Sarah1281]

But how are you supposed to be thinking about him in a romantic capacity when he's talking about carrying you like a child?

[Aroihkin]

Haha, are we seriously talking about this, like, for serious?

He's mocking Oghren. Not all of dwarf-dom. Oggy's not that much shorter than Zevran is, although he's probably twice as heavy.

[Sarah1281]

My DN has excessive pride issues. Couldn't even manage to do the last embrace with Gorim because the guard was watching and she knew it would get out.

Edit: The party members (any of them) using Oghren's species to mock him does NOT go over well. I think part of it is that, unlike my CE, my DN has never actually been mocked for her species before Oghren joined the party and all the companions decided that was a great idea. Needless to say, my DE is the same way whenever someone decides to insult Zevran due to his species (and cares far ore than he does about it).

Modifié par Sarah1281, 23 mai 2010 - 06:52 .

[Lady Jess]

Elps wrote...

Sex is used all the time, by both sexes, to get what they want. For Zevran and Leiliana its so they can get close to their marks and get the marks to let their guard down. This kind of thing is not uncommon in our societies too and was used to great effect during the Cold War.

People have sexual relationships for love, money, status, security, to end arguments - any number of things. Zev using sex to get his marks off guard is no different from his marks using sex to catch the assassin off guard. Using sex to get a man to do something for a woman is a ploy that is as old as the hills. It's not rape if two people consent, even if the motivations for the act have nothing to do with good intentions.

I have totally never flashed my chest at my husband mid-pointless argument to shut him up and make him forget what his point was. Nope, no never:innocent:

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Elps pretty much hit it on the head for me.
Now, in an effort to change the subject before people start clawing for one another's eyes, have ten minutes of Zevran snarking on the party. Included a few with responses you only hear if other members are in the group, but all the responses in the vid.
I had to leave out much awesomeness, like Leliana telling Zev to drop his pants, but I think I got a good range of Zev!snark there. It's mostly to link folks from that RP game to, since none of them have freaking played Dragoon Age. (I know, what kind of people are they? ...lol)

 Great video. Of course, Zevran just had to go for dwarf-mocking towards the end...

*dies laughing at Leliana arguing with Zev*

Oh god Loghain...rofl

[Sannox]

Lady Jess wrote...

Elps wrote...

Sex is used all the time, by both sexes, to get what they want. For Zevran and Leiliana its so they can get close to their marks and get the marks to let their guard down. This kind of thing is not uncommon in our societies too and was used to great effect during the Cold War.

People have sexual relationships for love, money, status, security, to end arguments - any number of things. Zev using sex to get his marks off guard is no different from his marks using sex to catch the assassin off guard. Using sex to get a man to do something for a woman is a ploy that is as old as the hills. It's not rape if two people consent, even if the motivations for the act have nothing to do with good intentions.

I have totally never flashed my chest at my husband mid-pointless argument to shut him up and make him forget what his point was. Nope, no never:innocent:

I like your style.   What does he flash at you?

When Zevran talks about the mark who recited poetry to him, it's clear that he thought she was trying to seduce him, and that he was being kind to her by having sex with her.  From his point of view it has nothing to do with rape, and more to do with making somebody's last hours happier.  It is rather horrible, but his intentions are good. 

Then there are also the other conversations, where I think it becomes clear that he tends to feel something for targets that he has sex with.   There's the mage who, again, seems to have seduced him rather than the other way around.  There's his first mark - it looks like he had sex with him and took his earring which 'meant a lot to me'.   Then there's the line about trying to make himself cold, but not succeeding.

Then there's the way he is with the PC - there is no suggestion of forcing sex.  He does make himself available, but again he seems to do that partly from kindness.   I'm sure there is lust there as well, definitely, but part of his motivation seems to be that he thinks the PC would enjoy it.  

It's hard to think of somebody with that attiude to sex as a rapist. 

[Sannox]

I don't mind the Alistair/Zevran banters.    They're facing death every day, and having to rely on each other to stay alive.  It's an unusual situation, and I don't mind if the conversations are more harsh.   I suppose the only problem would be if they were talking in front of a female Ferelden PC and the conversation seemed to be directed at her. 

The 'romance' line in the freeing from the Crows conversation does seem odd.  My main problem is that the conversation doesn't flow between the ones either side of it (which when I've played through have been the earring offer and the tent refusal).   Zevran has already thanked the PC, in a way, if he has offerred the earring.

However, I think one thing it does do is help to highlight how little the PC has told Zevran about how they feel (and it puts the earring offer in context).   Up until that point, the PC has been unable to say anything more than 'I'm glad to have you with me'.  I think that if the PC says Zevran is more than a friend at that point, it maybe does need some acknowledgement from him - and some surprise.   The friendship line seems to move the conversation towards doing something worthy together - which is lovely, but I don't think it would be Zevran's natural reaction to the PC starting to confess what they feel. On the other hand, I don't think the line, or Zevran's reaction, should be exactly the same as if the romance was just starting.   I don't know what the answer is there.  But thank you, Ejoslin, for sorting it out.

ETA: I wonder if it would flow better if there were no romance line there at all?  Or does there need to be an opportunity to start a romance at that point?  Or even to leave that whole conversation out if the earring has been offerred (which would be a shame, but might make more sense?).  It doesn't help that Zevran's use of 'friend' is inconsistent, depending on how you interpret it. 

(I wrote this, about how much the warden tells Zevran about their feelings before this conversation.  Zevran's surprise at the warden's confession feels odd, but isn't really.  And it's odd that Zevran finds the idea of friendship foreign, when he was talking about friendship 'and more' right near the beginning). 

Modifié par Sannox, 23 mai 2010 - 09:48 .

[soignee]

Aroihkin wrote...

Haha, are we seriously talking about this, like, for serious?
He's mocking Oghren. Not all of dwarf-dom. Oggy's not that much shorter than Zevran is, although he's probably twice as heavy.

See, the way I see this is that Zevran mocks Oghren as sympathy/pity really, really wouldn't go down well. It's rolling with the jokes and not the punches, and I reckon these two would get very drunk in a bar and have a great time

Also my DC really doesn't give a left nug's bollock about dwarf jokes, since it means people only assume the stereotype and not what she really is.

[Sannox]

I don't think the situation for dwarves is quite the same as it is for elves. They are different, rather than oppressed. (Yes, I'm probably being hugely over-simplistic). Some of the surface dwarves you meet seem to be doing reasonably OK - as well as you'd expect an elf or human to do in Orzammar anyway.

I like to imagine that Zevran and Oghren like and respect each other and the jokes are just teasing. Both of them have their weak spots, and Zevran, in particular, is very good at seeing weak spots and going for them, if he wants. He doesn't do that with Oghren. Teasing him about his height it not nearly so personal as some of the things Zevran could have said. Oghren's height is not a problem to Oghren. It comes across to me more like the way friends tease each other for things like being Welsh, or being a traffic warden. It's not very nice, but it's deliberately not too personal.

[Minaleth]

Although the Ferelden dogs banter made me raise my eyebrow, I think it's not ooc for anyone. People say even more 'inappropriate' or 'politically incorrect' things and it's not like they mean it. Or maybe I am hard to offend.

Also some of other banters are really more private conversations that PC should not hear.



And interpreting sex with marks as rape never even crossed my mind, but I can imagine situation that can be dubious. Still imho it was not implied in dialogues.

[soignee]

Minaleth wrote...

Although the Ferelden dogs banter made me raise my eyebrow, I think it's not ooc for anyone.

I could see a really stuffy Cousland being all HEEEEEEEEEEEY HEY NOW and Zevran and Alistair being "AH NOT YOU OBVVVVVIOUSLY, but did you take a good look at the women in the last town we passed...?" All my female characters don't really think of themselves as Fereldian and therefore do not care.

And interpreting sex with marks as rape never even crossed my mind, but I can imagine situation that can be dubious. Still imho it was not implied in dialogues.

Hang on, this has come up before and Gaider waded in with a NO IT WASN'T RAPE a few months ago. But yeah, he/ the Crows are sleeping with their marks to soften the blow, so to speak. I find it hard interpreting it as one last hurrah, though some of the marks might know what's coming and view it as such.

Modifié par soignee, 23 mai 2010 - 12:54 .

[ejoslin]

Ok, I DO have to go over the party banters again. I can also add that Leliana dialog to the game.



And please, let's not go over the whole "Is Zevran a rapist," thing. David Gaider stepped in last time and said he is NOT.

[soignee]

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, I DO have to go over the party banters again. I can also add that Leliana dialog to the game.

And please, let's not go over the whole "Is Zevran a rapist," thing. David Gaider stepped in last time and said he is NOT.

urgh sorry EJ I fail at typing and said a WAS instead of a WASN'T. Yeah, Gaider indeed say this. My fingers alas do not catch up with my thoughts and I apparently need more coffee to self edit my mistakes coherently.

Modifié par soignee, 23 mai 2010 - 12:57 .

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
And please, let's not go over the whole "Is Zevran a rapist," thing. David Gaider stepped in last time and said he is NOT.

What Gaider says is irrelevant.  Authors are sometimes woefully ignorant of their own characters.  For instance, Stephanie Meyer thinks Edward is a flawless example of everything a man should be, not a creepy stalker/abusive boyfriend who goes after girls 1/4 his age. 

[Creature 1]

Elps wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Edit: And lest anyone mistake my objection as due to my being too *nice*, let me remind you my previous failure to toe the line was my opinion that Zevran was essentially a rapist.

Wait...so you're a Zevran fan even though you think he's a rapist? If I thought that I probably wouldn't like the character...

I've heard alot ofthings said about Zev, that he's sleazy, womanizing, blah blah the list goes on. But this...this I have never heard.

I think the 'rapist' part is in questioning how much consent the women who slept with him trying to get him to spare their lives really gave.

I get the impression the women were consensual, and some tried to use it as an opportunity to kill him during the act.

But the idea of women begging for their lives via sexual acts, and Zev 'letting it happen' even though he has no intention of sparing them...might not be rape, but it's still not nice. :/

Sex is used all the time, by both sexes, to get what they want. For Zevran and Leiliana its so they can get close to their marks and get the marks to let their guard down. This kind of thing is not uncommon in our societies too and was used to great effect during the Cold War.

People have sexual relationships for love, money, status, security, to end arguments - any number of things. Zev using sex to get his marks off guard is no different from his marks using sex to catch the assassin off guard. Using sex to get a man to do something for a woman is a ploy that is as old as the hills. It's not rape if two people consent, even if the motivations for the act have nothing to do with good intentions.

The question is how much coercion has to be present before the consent is invalidated.