35177 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

It's not going away, is it. Ok, I'm bowing out of the conversation!

Edit: Yay, page topper!  Hmmmmm.


I'll be back in awhile!  Right now I'm going over banters and such!

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 mai 2010 - 01:03 .

[Minaleth]

Btw, in dwarf thread someone asked if people here are cat/dog/whateveranimal people. I think Zevran approves of bunnies :3

Also let me help you with Zev kiss promotion :3

I think he is adjusting her necklace or something...<3

Modifié par Minaleth, 23 mai 2010 - 01:12 .

[Sannox]

Creature 1 wrote...
The question is how much coercion has to be present before the consent is invalidated. 

I'm sorry to snip this out of context but the conversation was getting quite large .

I think coercion is part of it, definitely.   The main question is the intent of the 'rapist'. 

I think it's clear from the dialogues that Zevran's intent is mutual pleasure.   He think he's doing them a favour, rather than the other way round.   He might be getting the wrong impression, but his intentions are good.  It looks like he got the wrong impression in the case of the mage (she was trying to trick him, and was under pressure to do so).

There may be times when he uses sex to manipulate people (we're not told about those times, but maybe they are hinted at).   That's not nice, but it's not rape, unless he believes they don't want to have sex with him.  I do understand your point about the nature of consent when somebody is being coerced, but the intent is still important.  If he said 'I'll kill you unless you have sex with me', then that would be rape, even if there was no physical coercion.   If the person thought that sex might distract him from the kill, but Zevran thought they were having sex because they wanted to, then it's not rape. 

[Sannox]

Minaleth wrote...


I think he is adjusting her necklace or something...<3

If her necklace is stuck down her cleavage then, yes!

I like the light in that picture.

I'm equally a dog/cat person.   I have never had a pet bunny, so I don't know about them.  I wonder if Zevran would have a pet crow.  I can imagine him with some sort of hawk, maybe - an assassinating type of bird.

Modifié par Sannox, 23 mai 2010 - 01:24 .

[Minaleth]

Bunny is here only for the lulz



Anyway in lot of fanfics Zevran gets along very well with mabari.

[Creature 1]

Sannox wrote...
. . . snip . . .

I'm not going to get into all this again because people found it upsetting last time.  I'll just say that I don't think that is Zevran's intent, but his intent is only half the equation, and you can wrong someone without intending to. 

[soignee]

in my fanfic the mabari and zev like each other, yes. It's like lulzy, one sided banter.



...what? I like the dog, okay? He's cute, OBSERVE:

http://l-userpic.liv...0559306/8881242

Also I've just put on a full face of make up to go for a walk in the countryside. idk why either, okay? and I'm annoyed as I've lost my red Mac lippy and that's FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

not sure where I'm going with this post, carry on

[Minaleth]

soignee wrote...

in my fanfic the mabari and zev like each other, yes. It's like lulzy, one sided banter.

...what? I like the dog, okay? He's cute, OBSERVE:
http://l-userpic.liv...0559306/8881242
Also I've just put on a full face of make up to go for a walk in the countryside. idk why either, okay? and I'm annoyed as I've lost my red Mac lippy and that's FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-
not sure where I'm going with this post, carry on

Basically you are going to walk countryside with mabari in makeup, but without lipstick. It's ok, I follow!

[MorGothic]

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
And please, let's not go over the whole "Is Zevran a rapist," thing. David Gaider stepped in last time and said he is NOT.

What Gaider says is irrelevant.  Authors are sometimes woefully ignorant of their own characters.  For instance, Stephanie Meyer thinks Edward is a flawless example of everything a man should be, not a creepy stalker/abusive boyfriend who goes after girls 1/4 his age. 

Yes, but Stephanie Meyer is an idiot, the fact that Stephanie Meyer thinks Edward is a flawless example of everything a man should be, is her point of view (no matter how wrong it is). She is also a women who apparently thinks obsession = True Love.

Gaider stated it was not rape, it was consensual sex between two adults. The circumstances the sex took place under is irrelevant, all that matter's is that neither party was forced.

Look at it this way;

A man finds out that a women he has always fancied is having an affair, and he has proof, let say photograph's, he then go to the women and says 'If you'll sleep with me, I'll give you the photo's. But if you refuse I'll send them to your husband'.  The women agree's to sleep with him.

While this is morally wrong it isn't rape.

Modifié par MorGothic, 23 mai 2010 - 01:48 .

[UpiH]

Maybe we could settle for a therapist then?

Modifié par UpiH, 23 mai 2010 - 04:07 .

[UpiH]

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
And please, let's not go over the whole "Is Zevran a rapist," thing. David Gaider stepped in last time and said he is NOT.

What Gaider says is irrelevant.  Authors are sometimes woefully ignorant of their own characters.  For instance, Stephanie Meyer thinks Edward is a flawless example of everything a man should be, not a creepy stalker/abusive boyfriend who goes after girls 1/4 his age. 

If that statement isn't outright arrogant, then what is?

[Sannox]

Creature 1 wrote...

Sannox wrote...
. . . snip . . .

I'm not going to get into all this again because people found it upsetting last time.  I'll just say that I don't think that is Zevran's intent, but his intent is only half the equation, and you can wrong someone without intending to. 

Yes, you can, and that person can be devastated, but it's still not rape.  It's something else.  (If I accidentally knocked somebody off a cliff, they would be just as dead as if I'd pushed them, but it wouldn't be murder).  If his partners appear to be willing adults, and he believes they are, then it can't be rape. 

(I think that's important, because the situation of 'wronging' somebody could happen to any ordinary, nice man or woman, in the wrong circumstances (simply that you have sex with somebody and they don't let you know that they don't want it).   Rape isn't something ordinary, nice people can end up accidentally doing, though.)

[Creature 1]

MorGothic wrote...
Yes, but Stephanie Meyer is an idiot, the fact that Stephanie Meyer thinks Edward is a flawless example of everything a man should be, is her point of view (no matter how wrong it is). She is also a women who apparently thinks obsession = True Love.

Yes, she is an idiot, but that doesn't mean that other people less idiotic can't be mistaken as well.

Gaider stated it was not rape, it was consensual sex between two adults. The circumstances the sex took place under is irrelevant, all that matter's is that neither party was forced.

That's not true.  In determination of consent, force is not simply the use of physical force. 

Look at it this way;

A man finds out that a women he has always fancied is having an affair, and he has proof, let say photograph's, he then go to the women and says 'If you'll sleep with me, I'll give you the photo's. But if you refuse I'll send them to your husband'.  The women agree's to sleep with him.

While this is morally wrong it isn't rape.

That sounds like a matter for a jury to decide.  It might not be rape, or it might be.  A lot of times rape isn't as simple as a man attacking a stranger in an alley.  Consent runs a continuum from true consent through a wide range of dubious consent to nonconsent. 

Your scenario is not equivalent to Zevran's.  Skewing your scenario towards nonconsent is the fact that the man demanded sex and coerced her to get it (the question is how coercive she felt this to be, and whether there were alternative routes out of the dilemma that she chose not to use).  Skewing Zevran's scenario towards nonconsent is the fact that he was planning on killing the woman unless she could stall him, which is a major coercive factor, and potentially coercive enough to overcome the fact that she initiated sex. 

Intent is often not much considered in rape cases, but a jury might consider Zevran to have acted with reckless or unreasonable intent. 

[Creature 1]

UpiH wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
And please, let's not go over the whole "Is Zevran a rapist," thing. David Gaider stepped in last time and said he is NOT.

What Gaider says is irrelevant.  Authors are sometimes woefully ignorant of their own characters.  For instance, Stephanie Meyer thinks Edward is a flawless example of everything a man should be, not a creepy stalker/abusive boyfriend who goes after girls 1/4 his age. 

If that statement isn't outright arrogant, then what is?

I judge characters by what they do, not by an author's unsupported claims about them.  Word of God is not infallible.  If I perceive an author to be portraying a character inconsistently, I'm not going to ignore the evidence from the storyline just because the author makes a contradictory declaration outside of the story. 

[UpiH]

Creature 1 wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
And please, let's not go over the whole "Is Zevran a rapist," thing. David Gaider stepped in last time and said he is NOT.

What Gaider says is irrelevant.  Authors are sometimes woefully ignorant of their own characters.  For instance, Stephanie Meyer thinks Edward is a flawless example of everything a man should be, not a creepy stalker/abusive boyfriend who goes after girls 1/4 his age. 

If that statement isn't outright arrogant, then what is?

I judge characters by what they do, not by an author's unsupported claims about them.  Word of God is not infallible.  If I perceive an author to be portraying a character inconsistently, I'm not going to ignore the evidence from the storyline just because the author makes a contradictory declaration outside of the story. 

Do you now? Or do you judge the characters by your interpretation of what they do or even by what they ought to do? If the latter, then you are indeed arrogant par excellence. If you really judge them by their actions, then we have no disagreement.

Then again, if you deem every sexual intercourse a rape, it's just logical to call Zevran a rapist. It's your opinion and of course you're entitled to it.

[Tellervo]

A girl gets really trashed and agrees to sleep with you. You're really trashed too, she's cute, so you do this thing. A week later she decides she didn't really want to, it was just the alcohol and peer pressure of the party in general. Surprise! In some US states, you're now guilty of rape, have fun with that. I understand the intent of such laws, and it's a noble intent, something necessary to have on the books in order to protect people who truly are victims, but in practice it's sometimes not so noble. So let's not bring the letter of modern law into this--it's clearly ridiculous at times.

What Zevran did in these situations is, without a doubt, reprehensible. I think he understands that, particularly as his brainwashing starts to wear off. It sounds rather like he used seduction to get close to a target, in which case they are likely unaware of his Crow nature and we must assume consenting (seeing as they fell for his seduction), or the targets are attempting to seduce him in hopes of causing a distraction or earning some emotional points. In the latter case, they are consenting because they're initiating the sexual encounter--Zevran is just a very bad person for taking advantage of them. It's not as if Zevran is offering "sex or death" and then killing them anyway. It's more like, "Sex instead of death?" "Well... I'll take the sex, at least. No promises on the "no death" bit."

I'm not saying "consent under duress is always consent". It just seems like Zevran's taking what's thrown at him and then doing his job.

Modifié par Tellervo, 23 mai 2010 - 02:34 .

[Tellervo]

My two cents have been given, and I'm going no further in this discussion. Instead, I'm going to dump some kmeme. Pardon if these are repeats to the thread--I can't recall what's been on my profile vs. on here.

Wardrobe Malfunction
Untitled
Practice

LOOK AT THE SIZE OF MY MASSIVEminiscule DISTRACTION. IT'S HUGE not as big as I thought it was. AND DISTRACTING kind of unimpressive.

Modifié par Tellervo, 23 mai 2010 - 02:57 .

[soignee]

Tellervo wrote...

A girl gets really trashed and agrees to sleep with you. You're really trashed too, she's cute, so you do this thing. A week later she decides she didn't really want to, it was just the alcohol and peer pressure of the party in general. Surprise! In some US states, you're now guilty of rape, have fun with that. I understand the intent of such laws, and it's a noble intent, something necessary to have on the books, but in practice it's often not so noble. So let's not bring the letter of modern law into this--it's clearly ridiculous.

this is too flippant. I hate it when law is brought up in arguments as you can only build a valid opinion on something as intricate as this if you have the case study to hand and have both sides of the story, so to speak. And as we know, lawyers do not disclose full details of the case to the press/public willy nilly.

What Zevran did in these situations is, without a doubt, reprehensible. I think he understands that, particularly as his brainwashing starts to wear off. It sounds rather like he used seduction to get close to a target, in which case they are likely unaware of his Crow nature

This is hinted at a lot in the dialogues.

and we must assume consenting (seeing as they fell for his seduction), or the targets are attempting to seduce him in hopes of causing a distraction or earning some emotional points.

This happened re: the circle mage who died falling off a carriage, I do believe.

[UpiH]

I've pasted this before but couldn't resist the thought of Creature re-writing Hamlet.

Now, there's some consistency and in-character for you.

Edit: Wouldn't a rapist use intimidation and violence rather than coercion and seducion?

Seriously, I'm not at all that knowledgeable on the matter at hand and I don't want to argue, just trying to point out food for thought, so I better keep silence.

Modifié par UpiH, 23 mai 2010 - 03:00 .

[Sannox]

That's a good point about modern law, Tellervo. Rape is different wherever you are. The sex laws in the UK got overhauled recently, so rape is not the same as it was a few years ago, legally.



It does look as if sometimes marks would try to seduce Zevran to distract him from the kill. However, he also seems to believe that they wanted to have sex with him. He is quite convinced of his own sexual attractiveness. I think that shows particularly in his dialogue about the mark who recited poetry to him. He seemed to think he was doing her a favour by giving her some pleasure in her last hours.

It's an unlikely situation in real life, but it seems to be what we're given in fictional Antiva - people in high position knew there was a good chance they'd be assassinated, and when the time came, they seemed to want to savour those last moments, even with their killer. I still don't see anything that tells me that Zevran would have sex with somebody he believed to be unwilling.

[Sannox]

Tellervo wrote...

My two cents have been given, and I'm going no further in this discussion. Instead, I'm going to dump some kmeme. Pardon if these are repeats to the thread--I can't recall what's been on my profile vs. on here.

Wardrobe Malfunction
Untitled
Practice

LOOK AT THE SIZE OF MY MASSIVEminiscule DISTRACTION. IT'S HUGE not as big as I thought it was. AND DISTRACTING kind of unimpressive.

Well, I think it's impressive.  Size isn't everything, you know. 

[soignee]

Minaleth wrote...

 Basically you are going to walk countryside with mabari in makeup, but without lipstick. It's ok, I follow!

I WENT FOR A WALK MINA AND IT WAS GUD:
http://pics.livejour...oe/pic/0008agw9
http://pics.livejour...oe/pic/00089z6q

My fail picture taking skills/camera do not pick up on the bluebells the woodland floor is covered in them, observe:
http://pics.livejour...oe/pic/0008b1aa
http://pics.livejour...oe/pic/0008d68g
http://pics.livejour...oe/pic/0008ctw0

The insects sadly ate me alive though >:|

[Sannox]

That's a beautiful bluebell wood, Soignee. My and my dog are staying indoors today. Neither of us are good at hot weather.

[Minaleth]

Uu, those are fabulous pictures soignee, and very beautiful place you live at, +10 points for zero people there ^^ (I can't stand insects though.)



Nice reading Tell :3

[Tellervo]

Sannox wrote...

Well, I think it's impressive.  Size isn't everything, you know. 

That's very kind of you to say.  Size helps, though.  *sigh*  Everyone goes through this at some point, right?

@Soignee: I want to roll in those bluebells.  And that field.  I just want to roll in the grass.  I think I'll go do that at Ashland today.

Modifié par Tellervo, 23 mai 2010 - 03:26 .