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[EccentricSage]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Have any of you defiled the ashes with Zevran present? How did he react?

didnt react to it at all

Then I figure his reaction speech upon finding the Urn must have just been shock over the legend, not a proclamation of faith.  Perhaps this means he has more of a general beleif in the maker?  If he prays to Andraste then I would think he'd be offended at the thought of defiling her remains.

I do remember someone saying that the cult's beleifs are as valid as anyones...  I'm pretty sure it was him who said it, when we were given the offer to help them in order to avoid further battle.  Or was that Morrigan who said it?  It was one of the two.  They were both with me.  (Zev instantly became my right hand man after he joined us... it wasn't even intentional... lol...I wanted him to meet the Dalish, because of his mother, so I took him for that, and just kept him.  We were too perfect together in battle.)

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Oh yes, I knew Zevran was devout because of the dialogue with Alistair. I just like the idea that the prayer gesture is similar to that one used to express thanks for either plenty or want. Something very central to Zevran's character, the idea of taking things as they come and making the best of them.

Oooh, gotcha now.  I don't think I ever made that connection.  Off to redcliff I go!

*sigh* is there anything that isn't special about him?  So many unexpected things.

Well, it's probably not related.  I mean, what are the odds that someone at Bioware is as stuffed full of useless cultural information as me?  LOL  However, I do like the idea, and fangirl that I am, I'm keeping it.

Edit:  Actually, it's not as crazy as it first sounds, being that Tevinter is based off the Byzantine empire and Antiva borders Tevinter, correct?  Byzantine...  Orthodox... hmm.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 février 2010 - 12:14 .

[Nonvita]

Or they just wanted to make destroying the ashes something very Wynne and Leliana specific. They use that example as such a big part of their characters (they even used it several times as a preview) that maybe they didn't want all the characters having some big reaction over it. My guess is Zevran probably got overshadowed in that instance.



Now, you can extrapolate about his beliefs however you want, since there's not a *whole* lot of to go off of regarding them. He could easily more of a generally religious person who is simply genuinely shocked at finding the Urn. Or he could be a deeply religious person who simply doesn't make his beliefs public very often. Either works.

[ejoslin]

And being religious can have very different meanings, too, to various people. Hmmm, when I examine it, I think of it more as a mafia hitman who goes to confession as well. Who knows. I haven't really given the whole thing that much thought -- I could be convinced just about any way. But since he's a pragmatist, I don't think he would hold the ashes as anything sacred. But probably finding Andestre's final resting spot was amazing to him as well.

Edit: Alistair actually sums up defiling the ashes quite well.  That he didn't care, because they were just ashes after all.  But he was also very moved.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 février 2010 - 12:25 .

[EccentricSage]

Nonvita wrote...

Or they just wanted to make destroying the ashes something very Wynne and Leliana specific. They use that example as such a big part of their characters (they even used it several times as a preview) that maybe they didn't want all the characters having some big reaction over it. My guess is Zevran probably got overshadowed in that instance.

Now, you can extrapolate about his beliefs however you want, since there's not a *whole* lot of to go off of regarding them. He could easily more of a generally religious person who is simply genuinely shocked at finding the Urn. Or he could be a deeply religious person who simply doesn't make his beliefs public very often. Either works.

Well, to be clear... I'm not saying it would make him less deaply religious... rather, just that it seems to indicate that his religion it's self is something not specific to the Chantry. 

Like how some people IRL have a deap beleif in god, or jesuss, or a creator of some other sort, but don't suscribe to a church's dogma.  Get what I mean?  It doesn't make them less devout.  In fact in my experience, such people are usually more devout in their own way than people who make a big show of it, and who hang on every word they are told is 'the one truth'. 

I'm really diging the juxtaposion between Alistair and Zevran on this.  Alistair being like the guy who was raised religious, filters all his views and judgements through that religions teaching, yet isn't really all that devout... and Zevran is the sort who may be deaply devout, but his spirituality is his own.  I senced a touch of bitterness in his tone in that convo with Alistair.  I aproove +10  LOL  Granted I could be wrong.

Oh, and I'm surprised Alistair didn't care.  He's usually one of the morally overbearing people.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 19 février 2010 - 12:33 .

[Nonvita]

Oh definitely. That's how my HN is- she believes in the Maker well enough, but dislikes the Chantry as an institution. With Zevran it's just hard to tell since there's not a lot of information about it. He could very well like and respect the Chantry, or he could not care about it; he could be deeply religious or not deeply religious. I'm actually glad the writers left it open-ended because that way each person can take from it what they want.



My personal view is that he is probably more 'spiritual' than 'religious.' I think he has a deep connection with religion, but that it's something very personal to him that he wouldn't push on others or even feel a need to share that much. It seems like it's something that helped him get through the hard times in his life, but I don't think the physical representations of faith matter as much to him, since they don't really affect his relationship with the Maker.



But, like you ejoslin, it's just not something I really think about much. I'm not used to religion playing a big part in my life, so that aspect of Zevran is a bit of a mystery to me! XD

[ejoslin]

Yes, Alistair has both good and bad points, but he's not particularly religious. He dislikes the chantry as well, actually, and he has good reasons for that. Alistair is more duty bound than morality bound. But the belief in Andastre seems to be pretty universal aside from the Dalish and the Dwarves, and even the Dalish believe in her even if they don't revere her.



The only reaction that doesn't make sense to me actually is Wynne, as defiling the ashes actually does no harm to anyone or anything (aside the Guardian I suppose); especially since she claims not to be religious. Even she tries to talk Genetivi out of reporting that the ashes have been found.



Ugh, I hate Wynne at the Gauntlet though. I could rant about THAT for awhile.

[EccentricSage]

Good points Nonvita. That's how I like to interpret it as well. It's weird for me, too, though.



I've had the great 'luck' of experiencing the full spectrum, myself. Granted, by first grade in Catholic School I came to the conclusion that I was a prisoner of a cult that makes human sacrafices and eats their flesh in form of wafers. Upon my first confession I was too afraid to ask what a 'hail marry' is, so I decided I'd rather risk hell and ask later. I recount this in all seriousness. lol

[frostajulie]

EccentricSage wrote...

Good points Nonvita. That's how I like to interpret it as well. It's weird for me, too, though.

I've had the great 'luck' of experiencing the full spectrum, myself. Granted, by first grade in Catholic School I came to the conclusion that I was a prisoner of a cult that makes human sacrafices and eats their flesh in form of wafers. Upon my first confession I was too afraid to ask what a 'hail marry' is, so I decided I'd rather risk hell and ask later. I recount this in all seriousness. lol

I am LDS and The sacrament (eating wafers and drinking grape juice/water) has always struck me as odd being a cannibilistic ritual by proxy so I can relate to this.

And Zevran is so hot with long hair, of course I have a thing for guys with long hair always have since I was a kid.

[Addai]

Zevran's prayer gesture:




I should have taken another one just after.  He then turns his palm outward.

P.S.  Poor Sten, having to watch the heathens at prayer.  LOL

Modifié par Addai67, 19 février 2010 - 01:34 .

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...

And being religious can have very different meanings, too, to various people. Hmmm, when I examine it, I think of it more as a mafia hitman who goes to confession as well. Who knows. I haven't really given the whole thing that much thought -- I could be convinced just about any way. But since he's a pragmatist, I don't think he would hold the ashes as anything sacred. But probably finding Andestre's final resting spot was amazing to him as well.

Edit: Alistair actually sums up defiling the ashes quite well.  That he didn't care, because they were just ashes after all.  But he was also very moved.

Maybe Zevran figures he needs all the help he can get. 

[ejoslin]

Jaulen wrote...

EDIT: @ejoslin: So even at 64 Hostile Alistair STILL thought there was something going on between the two of you after the Landsmeet?

At the end of the convo I was wishing there was a 'grab Alistair and shake him while yelling "No no no!!!! There was never anything, there is nothing, and there will NEVER BE anyththing between us!" But now I'm interested in seeing the epi cards.

JUST saw this (hah, looked back to see if there was anything today that I missed) and YES, Alistair dumped my City Elf after the Landsmeet whom he hated from the very moment she told him that she didn't care for Duncan much.  Geez, a city elf not liking a human man who told her first he'd help her find the Dalish . . . go figure.  *grin*  It's pretty amazing that she got it up to -64 -- I did give him all his gifts.  I have to admit, my biggest Alistair squee moment was when I got that speech at -100 hostile.  It's good seeing him have that much of a spine.  I guess he took that as hate sex as well . . . because yep, he needed to talk, about them!

Ok, I've just talked myself into a HNF Alistair hate game.  My big fear is his reaction to the engagement will be the same as it is at 0 Neutral (which IS funny).  But he may refuse it outright, which would be great.  Or he may not be willing to turn over the reigns as he will at Neutral, Warm, and Friendly, much like his reaction to Anora if you spare Loghain and they get married anyway.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 février 2010 - 02:44 .

[ejoslin]

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

And being religious can have very different meanings, too, to various people. Hmmm, when I examine it, I think of it more as a mafia hitman who goes to confession as well. Who knows. I haven't really given the whole thing that much thought -- I could be convinced just about any way. But since he's a pragmatist, I don't think he would hold the ashes as anything sacred. But probably finding Andestre's final resting spot was amazing to him as well.

Edit: Alistair actually sums up defiling the ashes quite well.  That he didn't care, because they were just ashes after all.  But he was also very moved.

Maybe Zevran figures he needs all the help he can get. 

I admit to having problems wrapping my head around it.  I'm not religious, nor am I spiritual, so it's just not something I can really examine or understand.  

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

Zevran's prayer gesture:




I should have taken another one just after.  He then turns his palm outward.

P.S.  Poor Sten, having to watch the heathens at prayer.  LOL

lol You know, I always took Zev's gestures there as poking fun at the revered mother...

[sami jo]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

no you cant spare loghain and have alistair rule alone... alistair even hardened will run off and become a wandering drunk if you dont arrange the marriage

Actually, you can put Allistair on the throne alone.  I did it in my first playthrough, and he was unhardened.

[ejoslin]

sami jo wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

no you cant spare loghain and have alistair rule alone... alistair even hardened will run off and become a wandering drunk if you dont arrange the marriage

Actually, you can put Allistair on the throne alone.  I did it in my first playthrough, and he was unhardened.

No, you cannot.  If you try to spare Loghain and make Alistair solo king, he will execute Loghain on the spot; therefore, Loghain is not spared.  You can only spare Loghain if you make Anora solo queen or have Alistair and Anora marry.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 février 2010 - 03:13 .

[sami jo]

ejoslin wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

no you cant spare loghain and have alistair rule alone... alistair even hardened will run off and become a wandering drunk if you dont arrange the marriage

Actually, you can put Allistair on the throne alone.  I did it in my first playthrough, and he was unhardened.

No, you cannot.  If you try to spare Loghain and make Alistair solo king, he will execute Loghain on the spot; therefore, Loghain is not spared.  You can only spare Loghain if you make Anora solo queen or have Alistair and Anora marry.

It may be one of the seemingly infinite Xbox glitches, but I promise, I did it.  My character was romancing Zev and did the sacrifice and Zev looked so sad in the epilogue that I had to replay it, and saved Loghain.  My PC fought Loghain himself, put Allistair on the throne and Allistair temper-tantrumed off inot the sunset, only to reappear looking all cheery at the send off.  So, it may have been a glitch.  Given the weirdness my game has been having, quite likely a glitch.

[ejoslin]

sami jo wrote...

It may be one of the seemingly infinite Xbox glitches, but I promise, I did it.  My character was romancing Zev and did the sacrifice and Zev looked so sad in the epilogue that I had to replay it, and saved Loghain.  My PC fought Loghain himself, put Allistair on the throne and Allistair temper-tantrumed off inot the sunset, only to reappear looking all cheery at the send off.  So, it may have been a glitch.  Given the weirdness my game has been having, quite likely a glitch.

That is really interesting.  Every time I've tried, Loghain gets splattered.  I get my share of glitches though -- especially regarding Alistair at the end.

[sami jo]

Edit: typos:
My game has been glitching wildly from the beginning.  I stopped playing my last mage character entirely because every time I asked Lel to open a chest she reacted as if I'd just given her a huge gift (complete with the "thank you" line), and by level 11 I had broken up with her three times already.  It was ruining my romance with Zev...

The current run through is a rogue so that I never need to take her out of camp.  I can't quite find it in me to ask her to leave, her reaction is just too awful.  I am liking this playthrough the best.  I've already told Wynne off for her comments about my relationship with Zev.  That convo triggered right after we left the tower.  I want a, "Shove it you old biddy." line to insert there.  He was reliving torture in the fade, she was whining about her failures.  Next I get to tell the psycho stalker how great he is in bed.

This Dalish elf is a little snippy.

Modifié par sami jo, 19 février 2010 - 04:03 .

[Cuddlezarro]

I asked Lel to open a chest she reacted as if I'd just given her a huge gift (complete with the "thank you" line), and by level 11 I had broken up with her three times already.

thats actually completely normal with leliena sadly :3

[sami jo]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I asked Lel to open a chest she reacted as if I'd just given her a huge gift (complete with the "thank you" line), and by level 11 I had broken up with her three times already.

thats actually completely normal with leliena sadly :3

Leliana:  I'm here for you.
PC: <groans> not again.
Leliana: You're just sooooo sweet!
PC: Pointy warrior type.  Not sweet.
Leliana: Teehee
Leliana: Schmooples thinks you should join us in our tent <bats eyes at PC looking decidedly blank>
PC: You do realize that I am still with Zevran.
PC: As I was the last three times we had this conversation.  Today.
Leliana: Tee hee!  We could watch the stars instead. <sigh>
PC: All those loud noises Wynne and Oghren keep commenting on.  Yep.  That was me and Zev having wild monkey nookie. 
PC: Repeatedly.
PC: You know.  That thing I have never, ever, ever done with you.
PC: Ever.
PC: Never. Ever.
Leliana: You LIED to me.  How could you lie to me! I don't know if I can trust you now.
PC: <bangs head on shield> Why didn't I listen when Allistair and Morrigan told me to leave the lunatic at the chantry? 
PC:  Oh yes, that's right.  Allistair is a bumbling idiot.
PC: And Morrigan is an evil b- I mean witch.

Morrigan was right.  My head was more cracked than Flemmeth realized when I took the hallucinating Chantry mouse with us.  Shades of a Stephen King novel here...

[Raiynsong]

ejoslin wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Alistair is quite jealous, no matter what!

even if your a guy hes jealous!

...shame I didnt take a screenshot of his reacting to Alexander saying hes jealous of me and zevran

also does any one know how to get the "you and zevran have a connection" part of the gossip dialogue if your romancing him or is it "females only"

It's romancing Alistair specific.  Even a friendzone Alistair female doesn't get that option.

I'm a male PC this time romancing Morrigan and Zevran.  So far, Zevran is at 100 adore but still no talking about Morrigan (I think maybe because she only let's me kiss her now).  Alistair FINALLY got back to neutral from really hostile, and we had the gossip talk tonight.  He gave me the "you and Zevran have a connection"  bit and I responded with "you're jealous"  and he just sorta cringed lol. So yes, you can get that if you are a male and just neutral (like at 28 or so) with Alistair.  Oddly enough, he picked up on my Zevran connection, and not the Morrigan one (tho Zev and I are like bunnies, and I pretty much ignore Morrigan right now).  For all you Female Zev-fans who haven't done a male pc yet. I suggest you try it just to get the sex vic.  Zevran's got some WONDERFUL faces there...Makes my female Chars a bit jealous.<3

[Raiynsong]

sami jo wrote...

Leliana:  I'm here for you.
PC: not again.
Leliana: You're just sooooo sweet!
PC: Pointy warrior type.  Not sweet.
Leliana: Teehee
Leliana: Schmooples thinks you should join us in our tent
PC: You do realize that I am still with Zevran.
PC: As I was the last three times we had this conversation.  Today.
Leliana: Tee hee!  We could watch the stars instead.
PC: All those loud noises Wynne and Oghren keep commenting on.  Yep.  That was me and Zev having wild monkey nookie. 
PC: Repeatedly.
PC: You know.  That thing I have never, ever, ever done with you.
PC: Ever.
PC: Never. Ever.
Leliana: You LIED to me.  How could you lie to me! I don't know if I can trust you now.
PC: Why didn't I listen when Allistair and Morrigan told me to leave the lunatic at the chantry? 
PC:  Oh yes, that's right.  Allistair is a bumbling idiot.
PC: And Morrigan is an evil b- I mean witch.

Morrigan was right.  My head was more cracked than Flemmeth realized when I took the hallucinating Chantry mouse with us.  Shades of a Stephen King novel here...

ROFL  this made my night

@jenovan:  read your fan fic.  Nice writing !

[Sabriana]

@ Raiynsong



I would, if playing male characters didn't feel so strange to me. I can't play them, I get really bored. I just can't make a connection, and the game feels flat. Like I said before, I made one once, and promptly lost him in melee-free-for-all. It was only for a fraction of a second, but I couldn't find my guy in the middle of the fracas. This has absolutely nothing to do with my RL feelings for men. I'm no female mysoginist, I assure you. Even the Mario bros bored me, lol. I picked up Samus Aran as soon as she became available.

So, I live vicariously through others, and well, there's always YouTube

[EccentricSage]

sami jo wrote...

Edit: typos:
My game has been glitching wildly from the beginning.  I stopped playing my last mage character entirely because every time I asked Lel to open a chest she reacted as if I'd just given her a huge gift (complete with the "thank you" line), and by level 11 I had broken up with her three times already.  It was ruining my romance with Zev...

The current run through is a rogue so that I never need to take her out of camp.  I can't quite find it in me to ask her to leave, her reaction is just too awful.  I am liking this playthrough the best.  I've already told Wynne off for her comments about my relationship with Zev.  That convo triggered right after we left the tower.  I want a, "Shove it you old biddy." line to insert there.  He was reliving torture in the fade, she was whining about her failures.  Next I get to tell the psycho stalker how great he is in bed.

This Dalish elf is a little snippy.

Fellow Dalish!  Show me your screencap! 

I actually love Wynne, but I got in a fight with her over Zev, too.  I couldn't be passive about it.  Our argument ended with her trying to explain that it's nothing against Zevran, but that she thinks we should end it now before he gets hurt, or something like that.  My character answered angrily 'oh, that makes sense, why hurt him later if I can hurt him now?' or something like that.  I have to admit, knowing that she was concerned for both of our hearts, and not hating on Zevran, and knowing how it would affect Zev if I make the Ultimate Sacrifice, I can now see the wisdom in her warnings.  But even so, I couldn't possibly leave him at Adore level, because my character could already tell through the subtle nuances and Zev opening up to him more, that Zev is very very seriously affected by him.  He won't let him down now.  Even before the spoilers, I knew my Dalish was far too survivalistic and far too concerned about his clan to sacrifice himself.  Zev is just his newest reason to live.

I do think my feelings would have been even more extreme if I'd had Zev in the fade with me.  Seeing that would have torn Dristen's heart out.  But just as well that Zevran dodged that bullet, I suppose. *shudders*  I wonder if my HN will have him with at that point already?  He’s going to be very cold towards Zevran and just use him at first, but will feel awful about it later.  He’s very bitter and driven by vengeance and duty, so he completely misses the nuances in Zev’s early talks and thinks he’s making excuses.  The conversation about killing innocents will not go over well with him at all.  The fade would be the perfect chance for him to be confronted with the horror of Zev’s past.

Oh boy… you’re making me glad I don’t take Lel out.  It sounds like the Dev teem left her for last minute and had to half ass it, unless psycho with short term amnesia and emotionless facial expressions was what they were going for.  Bleh.  My character has never tested out the whole asking her to leave thing.  And now that he’s aware that her life is in danger, he hasn’t the heart to do it.  He wishes he left her at the chantry… she at least would have been sharp enough and independent enough to have fought for evacuation I think, and could have been more use to them.  If not, then that would be her own failing.  I shouldn’t have taken her.  But she seemed so sweet and enthusiastic and understanding.  But knowing what I know now, her sentiments about me killing that knight who begged to be spared ring hollow.

And OMG, Steven King novel material is right!  LOL  That cracked me up.  XD

P.S. …Psycho stalker?

Modifié par EccentricSage, 19 février 2010 - 07:58 .