35177 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, one further thought. There's a reason why "no" is a bad safety word. When playing, that may be a word that the participants want to say and/or hear. Most people who are injured when playing are because these things aren't discussed beforehand. No CAN mean yes, if it's agreed upon beforehand what words mean "stop" and "ease up."

Fiction can cross lines that you would not cross in real life.

Edit: GAH, with this as a page topper, I'll probably edit it out.  But for now, an oldie but one I haven't posted in awhile.  Still-in-love Alistair about to kiss my elf mage good bye, while an in-love Zevran watches on.  I like to think they're both grateful for the gift Alistair is giving them.

Modifié par ejoslin, 31 mai 2010 - 09:03 .

[blademaster7]

Umm, silly question, but how do you get Zevran's approval to love?

[Aroihkin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No one has a damn right to look down on people as a whole for reading and writing weird sh*t. What the @#$% is with this thread sometimes? "I don't personally approve of it, and so it's wrong." Um. Well, no one is arguing that the real thing is @#$%ing wrong and should be punishible by shot-gun, but this is fanfic.

Has anyone actually said that they look down on people who like that? I know that I'm only saying that I don't like it and explaining why. I'm also not actually reading that kind of thing, like you suggested, but why shouldn't I be able to say that I'm not a fan when the topic comes up? It's not much of a discussion if it's just 'OMG, I heart this.' 'OMG, me too!'

To be perfectly bluntly honest it's mostly not you I see looking down on folks in this "discussion".

Me, I've been raked over the coals before in this very thread about six or seven hundred pages ago for defending people who read/write that sort of thing.

@ Ej -- Personally I'd categorize properly-done consenting power-exchange as completely different from dub/noncon, though I know the lines can get blurry for dubcon in some fandoms/fanfics and can involve restraints.

It's too much of an easy leap for the unfamiliar to go from "bondage in dubcon/noncon!" to "bondage is dubcon/noncon!", and I think we both know that the real community for such things isn't down with anything less than full consent.

Hell, the consent itself kind of is the kink; it's the sub who really has the power when you get right down to it.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 31 mai 2010 - 09:17 .

[ejoslin]

blademaster7 wrote...

Umm, silly question, but how do you get Zevran's approval to love?

You kill Taliesen.  If it doesn't turn to love, you hit a bug.  Basically, if you tell him twice that it's up to him if he stays or goes, then tell him, "It would be hard to kiss you if you left" his status will stay at adore.  This is fixed by DT and also by my optional zevran_main_repair (all versions) on ZDF's page if you're using a PC, but not retroactively.

[blademaster7]

I guess it's a bug because I'm stuck at adore with my FHN. I might just use the console. Oh well.

Modifié par blademaster7, 31 mai 2010 - 09:19 .

[ejoslin]

Aroihkin wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

No one has a damn right to look down on people as a whole for reading and writing weird sh*t. What the @#$% is with this thread sometimes? "I don't personally approve of it, and so it's wrong." Um. Well, no one is arguing that the real thing is @#$%ing wrong and should be punishible by shot-gun, but this is fanfic.

Has anyone actually said that they look down on people who like that? I know that I'm only saying that I don't like it and explaining why. I'm also not actually reading that kind of thing, like you suggested, but why shouldn't I be able to say that I'm not a fan when the topic comes up? It's not much of a discussion if it's just 'OMG, I heart this.' 'OMG, me too!'

To be perfectly bluntly honest it's mostly not you I see looking down on folks in this "discussion".

Me, I've been raked over the coals before in this very thread about six or seven hundred pages ago for defending people who read/write that sort of thing.

@ Ej -- Personally I'd categorize properly-done consenting power-exchange as completely different from dub/noncon, though I know the lines can get blurry for dubcon in some fandoms/fanfics and can involve restraints.

It's too much of an easy leap for the unfamiliar to go from "bondage in dubcon/noncon!" to "bondage is dubcon/noncon!", and I think we both know that the real community for such things isn't down with anything less than full consent.

Oooh, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.  It's why I brought up safety gestures -- even in the case where someone is gagged and bound, when done properly, they are still setting the limits. 

I still believe no is no, unless it's agreed upon beforehand that no is yes and a different word means stop. I think I need to quit talking about this since I'm saying what I want to say quite badly! 

[ejoslin]

blademaster7 wrote...

I guess it's a bug because I'm stuck at adore with my FHN. I might just use the console. Oh well.

Have you killed Taliesen?  Zevran does not switch to love until later in the game.

Modifié par ejoslin, 31 mai 2010 - 09:25 .

[blademaster7]

ejoslin wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

I guess it's a bug because I'm stuck at adore with my FHN. I might just use the console. Oh well.

Have you killed Taliesen?  Zevran does not switch to love until later in the game.

Yes I killed him but I used the response that makes Zevran back away and let you fight him yourself. Is that it? Should I let him fight with me?

[Charsen]

i don't think anyone said people should not write and read what they like. i think some people have just said they themselves do not read/write some topics because of any number of reasons. if you experience something very traumatic, you generally do not like to relive it. this is just how the human mind works.



no one needs permission or approval for liking what they like. some people are only pointing out that from their own experience, some violent things are painted in a romantic brush when they are anything but. i don't think anyone is attacking any dubcon author, i think it has been people offering their own experiences and opinions on the topic.

[ejoslin]

blademaster7 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

I guess it's a bug because I'm stuck at adore with my FHN. I might just use the console. Oh well.

Have you killed Taliesen?  Zevran does not switch to love until later in the game.

Yes I killed him but I used the response that makes Zevran back away and let you fight him yourself. Is that it? Should I let him fight with me?

Ah, just get the approval up to 91+ then.  You can do that by going to the tent.  You should be fine.  But he does have to be at 91+ in order for the love stuff to start triggering.  And if he's at 91+, you do need to invite him to the tent.

Edit: I actually like the dialog afterwards when he leaves and you question him about it.  But I have problems keeping his approval low enough to get that whole scenario.

Modifié par ejoslin, 31 mai 2010 - 09:35 .

[DWSmiley]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Then how do you explain it? Especially when it ends in the raped character realizing that they are truly in love with their rapist after all and having that be seen as a happy ending and not the result of trauma? 

I don't know exactly what the explanation is but it astonished me to learn how popular rape fantasies are among women.  So popular that any bookstore will have them - in the historical romance section.  The beautiful, arrogant noble's daughter is kidnapped by the handsome, dashing buccaneer.  He takes her to his pirate ship and has his way with her, despite her repeated and sincere protests.  Of course, they come to realize they love one another.  This is a genre that almost exclusively is written by women for women.

Perhaps it harkens back to an era when "good girls" didn't have sex outside of marriage, so helpless = guiltless.  But certainly the thrill of the fantasy in no way translates to real life.

[blademaster7]

ejoslin wrote...
Ah, just get the approval up to 91+ then.  You can do that by going to the tent.  You should be fine.  But he does have to be at 91+ in order for the love stuff to start triggering.  And if he's at 91+, you do need to invite him to the tent.

Edit: I actually like the dialog afterwards when he leaves and you question him about it.  But I have problems keeping his approval low enough to get that whole scenario.

I know how the approval works but knowing my luck I must have clicked a response that doesn't give him the love_eligible flag.

Thanks for the help. I'll just use the console... or go say hello to Leliana and make my PC a lesbian

Modifié par blademaster7, 31 mai 2010 - 09:41 .

[ejoslin]

oh, do the console. At least see the ending! It's really REALLY sweet. Without DT or my fix, though, a kiss at the end of the post-taliesen conversation is a VERY bad thing!

Modifié par ejoslin, 31 mai 2010 - 09:42 .

[ejoslin]

DWSmiley wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Then how do you explain it? Especially when it ends in the raped character realizing that they are truly in love with their rapist after all and having that be seen as a happy ending and not the result of trauma? 

I don't know exactly what the explanation is but it astonished me to learn how popular rape fantasies are among women.  So popular that any bookstore will have them - in the historical romance section.  The beautiful, arrogant noble's daughter is kidnapped by the handsome, dashing buccaneer.  He takes her to his pirate ship and has his way with her, despite her repeated and sincere protests.  Of course, they come to realize they love one another.  This is a genre that almost exclusively is written by women for women.

Perhaps it harkens back to an era when "good girls" didn't have sex outside of marriage, so helpless = guiltless.  But certainly the thrill of the fantasy in no way translates to real life.

THIS!  I'm not sure why bodice rippers are so popular (not my thing at all) but they certainly are.  Fantasy is just so different from reality.

[Sarah1281]

ejoslin wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Then how do you explain it? Especially when it ends in the raped character realizing that they are truly in love with their rapist after all and having that be seen as a happy ending and not the result of trauma? 

I don't know exactly what the explanation is but it astonished me to learn how popular rape fantasies are among women.  So popular that any bookstore will have them - in the historical romance section.  The beautiful, arrogant noble's daughter is kidnapped by the handsome, dashing buccaneer.  He takes her to his pirate ship and has his way with her, despite her repeated and sincere protests.  Of course, they come to realize they love one another.  This is a genre that almost exclusively is written by women for women.

Perhaps it harkens back to an era when "good girls" didn't have sex outside of marriage, so helpless = guiltless.  But certainly the thrill of the fantasy in no way translates to real life.

THIS!  I'm not sure why bodice rippers are so popular (not my thing at all) but they certainly are.  Fantasy is just so different from reality.

I think my problem is that I need fantasy to have some degree of realism in human behavior. Yes, there can be magic, dragons, time travel, whatever. I'm fine with that. When characters  fall in love with the first guy who ****s them even if it was rape? BS. That just totally breaks the immersion for me.

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Then how do you explain it? Especially when it ends in the raped character realizing that they are truly in love with their rapist after all and having that be seen as a happy ending and not the result of trauma? 

I don't know exactly what the explanation is but it astonished me to learn how popular rape fantasies are among women.  So popular that any bookstore will have them - in the historical romance section.  The beautiful, arrogant noble's daughter is kidnapped by the handsome, dashing buccaneer.  He takes her to his pirate ship and has his way with her, despite her repeated and sincere protests.  Of course, they come to realize they love one another.  This is a genre that almost exclusively is written by women for women.

Perhaps it harkens back to an era when "good girls" didn't have sex outside of marriage, so helpless = guiltless.  But certainly the thrill of the fantasy in no way translates to real life.

THIS!  I'm not sure why bodice rippers are so popular (not my thing at all) but they certainly are.  Fantasy is just so different from reality.

I think my problem is that I need fantasy to have some degree of realism in human behavior. Yes, there can be magic, dragons, time travel, whatever. I'm fine with that. When characters  fall in love with the first guy who ****s them even if it was rape? BS. That just totally breaks the immersion for me.

There's nothing wrong with that.  I'm not into porn at ALL, and I don't feel at all weird admitting it, though I'm sure there are a lot of people who think that's weird!

[Minaleth]

Sorry to interrupt serious discussions but I have to share my line art (dome with super epic awesome Pentel brush pen!!) before I destroy it completely with some coloring experiment. Clickie to enlarge...



I've changed Zevran's expression to something less enthusiastic than it originally was.

Modifié par Minaleth, 31 mai 2010 - 10:25 .

[Sannox]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Then how do you explain it? Especially when it ends in the raped character realizing that they are truly in love with their rapist after all and having that be seen as a happy ending and not the result of trauma? 

To be honest, I don't know how to explain sexuality.  Why would somebody like that in a story?  Because they have rape fantasies, but they also like romance in their stories, I suppose.  (It isn't real life.  Nobody wants to be raped in real life.)

I'm not disapproving of people not liking these stories.  There's no reason to like them, if they're not your kink.  I started asking because I was writing non-con, and am wary about posting it without a warning.  Actually, what got me thinking was a story I read on the kinkmeme that I liked.   It was non-con and had two of my favourite characters (not necessarily in character, but that wasn't the point).   The author had put a spoiler at the bottom saying that it was role play, which instantly changed the story from non-con to completely con.   (If anybody particulary wants to find the story, it's fairly recent - oh, you'll probably guess which one from my description).   It was one way of getting round the issue, other than putting up a warning.  I'm not sure what's best - a warning, calling it role play, or just assuming that people won't read a story which is likely to be non-con if they don't like it.  For me, if that story had been left as non-con, it would have been fine for me.  It's fantasy.

It IS fiction - I agree with Aro there.  It's writing out, or reading a sexual fantasy.  It is worrying me that you might think that there is a relationship between the fantasy and real life - in the sense that if I wrote a fantasy about say, a prison guard whipping somebody, I would think that was in any way OK in real life. (I'm choosing prison guards, because there are prisons and guards in the game).   

Modifié par Sannox, 31 mai 2010 - 10:25 .

[Sannox]

Minaleth wrote...

Sorry to interrupt serious discussions but I have to share my line art (dome with super epic awesome Pentel brush pen!!) before I destroy it completely with some coloring experiment. Clickie to enlarge...

That's what I needed to see!  You have such a distinctive style.  I would know that was yours right away.  I love it (and I like seeing the earring there ).  

[soignee]

Minaleth wrote...

Sorry to interrupt serious discussions but I have to share my line art (dome with super epic awesome Pentel brush pen!!) before I destroy it completely with some coloring experiment. Clickie to enlarge...



I've changed Zevran's expression to something less enthusiastic than it originally was.

THIS IS BEAUTTTTTTIFUL!!

ffffff I'd kill to draw this neat and linearly, seriously Mina<3<3<3<3<3

[Aroihkin]

Rape is not romance, I will easily agree to that. Even if something like stockholm syndrome is written in, it's still someone taking advantage of someone's damaged psyche to get what they want, and IMO still is not romance. (Although then it's at least an explanation for the victim's wtf reaction.) Although someone portraying something like that is probably not doing it for ****** material, it's probably more of a psyche-study.

I'm of the opinion that "They raped me, but now I love them!" stuff is just bad writing, especially in fanfic. But fanfic is the land of a lot of wtf stuff, like using water as lube. When it totally breaks physics or the reasonable limits of the human psyche (without being explained very well), it's at the point of bad writing IMO. It's like how one generally shouldn't write detailed sex without at least researching how it really works, if one is a virgin.

So I guess I'm in agreement? If folks are just dissing "rape = love", then yes, I agree; that's bull****.

@ Ej -- Oh, I knew what you meant re: safety words/gestures, I was just reiterating before anyone started drifting towards that being the same thing. I see the two get mixed up a lot by folks who aren't well-versed in powerplay and the like. Not saying you're not, I'm saying others may not be. XD

Just trying to head it off at the pass, so to speak. I remember the last time this stuff came up it got muddled pretty fast.

[Aroihkin]

Minaleth wrote...

Sorry to interrupt serious discussions but I have to share my line art (dome with super epic awesome Pentel brush pen!!) before I destroy it completely with some coloring experiment. Clickie to enlarge...



I've changed Zevran's expression to something less enthusiastic than it originally was.

Holy crap, dude.

No, seriously. Holy crap.

That's utterly gorgeous!

And I still love the way you like drawing him with his braids unhooked from the back. It makes him look so relaxed.

:wub:

Damn you, Mina. I have such lineart envy.

[heretica]

Minaleth wrote...

Sorry to interrupt serious discussions but I have to share my line art (dome with super epic awesome Pentel brush pen!!) before I destroy it completely with some coloring experiment. Clickie to enlarge...



I've changed Zevran's expression to something less enthusiastic than it originally was.

<3<3

I totally love it. I was listening to Faunts - Meno Mony Falls and it gave me a very nice feeling  

[Nonvita]

Minaleth wrote...

Sorry to interrupt serious discussions but I have to share my line art (dome with super epic awesome Pentel brush pen!!) before I destroy it completely with some coloring experiment. Clickie to enlarge...



I've changed Zevran's expression to something less enthusiastic than it originally was.

MINNNAAAAAAAA Mina Mina Minaaaaaaaa. OMG. Sooooo gorgeous. *looks at how inferior own drawings are* Also I need that pen. Currently I own no black pens.

*goes back to staring* So beautiful.

[Minaleth]

soignee wrote...
THIS IS BEAUTTTTTTIFUL!!
ffffff I'd kill to draw this neat and linearly, seriously Mina<3<3<3<3<3

But you can do stuff with color! I am so hesitant to color this, sure it will be disaster... maybe it will stay just line art.

Aro, Sannox, Catt ... thank you sweethearts. I love this fandom too much *huggles* <3
Anyone who views later and likes - enjoy! :3

Nonvita wrote...

MINNNAAAAAAAA Mina Mina Minaaaaaaaa. OMG. Sooooo gorgeous. *looks at how inferior own drawings are* Also I need that pen. Currently I own no black pens. 

*goes back to staring* So beautiful.

 
It's more brush than pen, but it's definitely worth a try. 
And you art is gorgeous! That Missa's approval stamp was hilarious and beauuuutiful :3 I am so looking forward for more!

Modifié par Minaleth, 31 mai 2010 - 10:45 .