35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Minaleth]

ejoslin wrote...
They were lovers for sure.  Zevran says they were friends, but also will say that there really was no such thing as friendship in the Crows.

Maybe he just doesn't want to tell Warden about Taliesin yet, and except that there probably really are no friendships among crows. I think they were friends.

Edit:
linking Charsen's stuff.

Modifié par Minaleth, 02 juin 2010 - 11:13 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sannox wrote...
Zevran and Taliesen do seem to be at a similar level, because Zevran selects Taliesen for his team on the Rinna mission.    Does that mean they're both masters?  I thought not, but I don't understand the structure.   They both seem to be in a position to bid for contracts, which I took to mean that they weren't approached directly (e.g. by Howe), but that somebody higher up did that deal.   Which would mean that if the assassination failed the contract would be outstanding and either another bid would be accepted, or somebody would be 'sent'.

I'm pretty sure Zev and Tal were both regular assassins who could bid for contracts. Zev made it sound like the masters were a cut above where he was, in control of things rather than 'field agents'.

Bids worked like this, as far as I understood it from Zev's conversation.

1 - Someone (like Howe) would contact the Crows, designate the mark, be told how much it would cost, then pay the full ammount. Presumably this contract would be in the hands of a single master.

2 - At this point assassins can bid on the contract, agreeing to a percentage cut of the bounty with the guild. Whoever makes the best bid, and is considered 'worthy' by the master, gets the contract.

3 - If the assassin fails, the contract is still open to new bids, but is not cancelled.

(Which theoretically means Howe had already paid for the contract when Zev was presented to Loghain? Eh, I think it was just a drama cinematic...)

Zevran says that his life is forfeit and if you ask him to leave he explains that he will be killed if he does.  So essentially, there seems to an in-house contract out on Zevran.   One that Taliesin volunteered for.   That's the way I interpreted it, anyway.

I agree. I doubt there's even money on it. IMO it felt like an honour-killing kinda deal.

Meanwhile, the Grey Warden contract is outstanding partly because nobody will bid for it.   Zevran's was the only bid.   Whether that means that eventually somebody would be sent, I don't know.   Yes, Taliesin could be primarly there for the Grey Warden contract rather than the Zevran contract.  It's not clear.  He does ask for Zevran, though, so that seems to be his priority.   Both contracts were suicidal, although I bet Taliesen thought Zevran would want to come back with him (why not, from his point of view?), and would be fighting on his side.

I always took it as Taliesen being after Zevran. He believed Zevran was biding his time with the Wardens, not friends with them, and that if a safe way back to the Crows presented itself then Zev would jump at it (which he does if his approval isn't high enough by the meeting). Of course, bringing back Zev to Antiva means the Warden contract has to be fulfilled, so while Taliesen isn't directly after the Wardens he has to deal with them for Zev's sake.

Considering how expert an assassin Zevran reportedly was, I don't think the Crows would have minded taking him back into the fold. After some punishment, maybe, who knows. :/ He'd still be useful to them.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 02 juin 2010 - 11:08 .

[ejoslin]

Minaleth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
They were lovers for sure.  Zevran says they were friends, but also will say that there really was no such thing as friendship in the Crows.

Maybe he just doesn't want to tell Warden about Taliesin yet, and except that there probably really are no friendships among crows. I think they were friends.

Edit:
linking Charsen's stuff.
[img]http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6883/zevtaltraining3.png[img]

He says it in almost their last conversation to a warden who is friendly or in love.  When he's thanking the warden for freeing him.

Edit: To address another point, I don't think Zevran was ever like the other crows.  He will admit that his training wasn't fully successful with him -- he shouldn't have had a conscious at all.  The fact that he survived his training despite not being cold shows that he was stronger than almost all of them. 

I find it interesting that he compares himself to the warden in that he also considers the warden better than most people; stronger, more attractive, more skilled, etc.  He respects and admires the warden in ways perhaps he never has anyone before.

second edit: STILL catching up and drinking coffee (grin) but I want to add that I agree with Shadow of Light Dragon about the contract.

I also want to say that I think Zevran considered Taliesen a friend, but then learned what real friendship is from the warden.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 11:14 .

[ejoslin]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

@ ejoslin: You could play ME2 without playing ME1...but you'd be missing out on lots of references, as well as important backstory for some of the best characters in the series (Wrex, Garrus, Tali). Also, since ME2 uses your ME1 saves to carry over some of your ME1 decisions, you won't be getting that either: the game will just make default choices for you...and they're not necessarily ones you want. I know I definitely wouldn't want them, because they basically involve you killing everyone that can be killed; which obviously doesn't work if you're trying to play a good character. So I'd recommend you play ME1 first. Yes, it has some drawbacks by comparison with ME2 (damn inventory system...or lack thereof), but the story, for example, is better than in ME2. And it's still a great game. IMO, at least.

Ok, and it's not very expensive on Steam.  I will give it a try!  Thank you!

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 11:28 .

[Minaleth]

ejoslin wrote...
I also want to say that I think Zevran considered Taliesen a friend, but then learned what real friendship is from the warden.

That is very good explanation.

[soignee]

Minaleth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
I also want to say that I think Zevran considered Taliesen a friend, but then learned what real friendship is from the warden.

That is very good explanation.

I like it too! The Crows: they **** you over. True story, internets.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

soignee wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
I also want to say that I think Zevran considered Taliesen a friend, but then learned what real friendship is from the warden.

That is very good explanation.

I like it too! The Crows: they **** you over. True story, internets.

I third that

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

second edit: STILL catching up and drinking coffee (grin) but I want to add that I agree with Shadow of Light Dragon about the contract.

I also want to say that I think Zevran considered Taliesen a friend, but then learned what real friendship is from the warden.

*shakes fist at everyone for talking about Z & T while I'm not here to play along*

I agree with the two statements above, and I don't believe that, at that point, there was an actual contract out on Zevran.  I think Taliesen was put on the Warden contract (well, volunteered, but I'm sure a Master had the final say), and cleaning up after Zevran was implicit, not explicit.  He probably believed, or at least, hoped, that he could bring Zev back into the fold.

I think it was... Sannox? (Sorry if that's not right, I'm in a hurry ;D) who said that they thought Taliesen loved Zevran to go through all that trouble -- I think there may be something there.  After all, no other Crow wanted to touch that contract besides the suicidal elf.  I think Taliesen may have wanted to find Zevran and bring him back, OR, if the Warden killed him, get revenge (which I believe he says in that case?).  He can disguise it as all part of the job if he likes, but I think there are some feelings involved there too.  And if we think Zevran has a hard time dealing with emotions.. heh.

As for "friends" vs. friends... yeah, what ejo said   I tried to address that in part of my fic, as Zev tries to explain their relationship (all of it.. heh  to the Warden.

"We... did not have friends among the Crows," he said carefully. "Not in the same sense of the word that I would use to describe, for instance, you and Alistair."

"He was a good friend to me, as good as one could hope for in such a life as the one we led," the assassin said quietly.

argh, must go commute! <_<

Modifié par jenovan, 02 juin 2010 - 12:02 .

[Sannox]

Yes, the Crow training doesn't work for Zevran, but it doesn't really work for any of them. Rinna falls for Zevran. Taliesin falls for Zevran (I think) and risks his life to save him/get him back. The Crows do a bad job of making them 'cold' altogether.

But they did succeed to some extent. Zevran's attitude to Rinna (and to his feelings for Rinna in particular) was a result of his Crow training. It's the aftermath of that makes him question the attitude he's been taught and that eventually allows him to love the warden in a different way. I suppose the warden should be thankful that they didn't meet earlier.

Zevran was no better than Rinna or Taliesin back then. He is very honest about that. Rinna wasn't cold - she fell in love. Taliesin loved/cared for Zevran enough to come after him even if he'd probably die doing it. Both of them end up dead, without any chance for redemption. You could argue that if Taliesin hadn't loved Zevran, he'd still be alive. And if Zevran hadn't loved Rinna he'd have been more detached about her 'betrayal' and might have believed her. Maybe.

[ejoslin]

I don't know that Zevran really loved Rinna, but that's a different discussion. He knows nothing of love before the warden, can't even figure out what it is that he feels. I really got the feeling from his story that he was infatuated with Rinna, not in love with her.

Taliesen as well -- if Zevran is alive but not with you, he's hunting down Zevran to kill him.

You have people who "love" but who are awfully quick to kill the ones they profess to love. Taliesen killing Rinna was Zevran's call, and it was her innocence, the unjust killing of her, that seemed to bother him most. The talk with the crow master afterwards just solidified for him what exactly he was.

Edit: And I have no clue what Rinna's feelings towards Zevran was.  She was not the bastion of good and sweet for sure.  She may have loved him, she may have felt the same closeness that Taliesen felt for Zevran, she may have been saying she loved him trying to save her life.  You know that Zevran cared for her, yes, but not enough to spare her life when he had a choice.

Second edit: When the warden asks Zevran if he loves him/her, he doesn't know because he has no idea how love is supposed to feel.  Had he loved Rinna, he would have had an idea what love was.  He felt something for her, yes.  But I don't believe it was love.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 12:43 .

[soignee]

ejoslin wrote...

I don't know that Zevran really loved Rinna, but that's a different discussion. He knows nothing of love before the warden, can't even figure out what it is that he feels. I really got the feeling from his story that he was infatuated with Rinna, not in love with her.

Taliesen as well -- if Zevran is alive but not with you, he's hunting down Zevran to kill him.

You have people who "love" but who are awfully quick to kill the ones they profess to love. Taliesen killing Rinna was Zevran's call, and it was her innocence that seemed to bother him, the unjust killing of her, that seemed to bother him most. The talk with the crow master afterwards just solidified for him what exactly he was.

I get the infatuation too. If I had more time I'd sit down and write out a sympathetic portrayal of Rinna, she's pretty much just used as a woman in the refridgerator for Zevran's tale and I get the impression she was quite the lady.

Also this is making me go over my version of Rinna confession to Missa again, LOLZ.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Maybe the relationship with Rinna never got far enough before Zev got scared...

[jenovan]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Maybe the relationship with Rinna never got far enough before Zev got scared...

Agreed... Haven't seen this brought up today yet, so...!   I think that may be part of why Zevran agreed so readily to let Taliesen kill Rinna.  He did feel something for her, an infatuation at the least, but it could have become more, perhaps.  But, he even says it frightens him.  On one level, he may have welcomed the chance to rid himself of these troublesome feelings through her death. 

(I took this a step further when writing it up... Zevran looked at Rinna's supposed betrayal and thought [again, in a bit of a panic about this infatuation] that maybe she had been trying to lead him on so she could betray them.  Kind of a ... shifting of the blame maybe?  An excuse for falling for her.  If that makes any sense.  *goes to look for coffee*)

[Minaleth]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Maybe the relationship with Rinna never got far enough before Zev got scared...

Me thinks exactly that. It was 'resolved' before it could turn into love. (IMO.)

[Aroihkin]

He's such an emotionally-stunted little bastard. <3

[sami jo]

@CZ: Now you have me playing KOTOR again. A fairly large number of the things the restoration put back in KOTOR II on PC were in the Xbox version of the game. Now, if I can just find a mod to let me get the Handmaiden instead of the Disciple as a female PC. =P



Regarding Taliesen: The age difference actually makes sense to me. Zev is one of the young up and coming "stars" of the Crows. Taliesen agrees to be part of his team when he gets the job with Rinna, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a huge age difference. I had a former mentor take a similar role on a project early in my career. He was supporting me and his presence on the first big project I was in charge of was reassuring. Zev's reactions to Taliesen make more sense if Taliesen was something of a mentor and a lover rather than a peer and a lover.

[ejoslin]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Maybe the relationship with Rinna never got far enough before Zev got scared...

That's very possible.

[Sannox]

It depends on which options you pick during the Rinna conversation, but Zevran kind of confirms that he fell in love by not denying it.  I thought it might be infatuation until I saw that option.

He also (with certain dialogue options) explains that it wasn't a case of not caring enough for Rinna to let her live.  It was the other way round.  He was so scared of his own feelings for her that he didn't want to know the truth.    That part is quite chilling.

I think Rinna probably did love him back.  She told him she did, and he seems to think that she did. 

All that makes the context of his comments about love (if you choose that option) after the first tent time, much more meaningful. 

Modifié par Sannox, 02 juin 2010 - 01:05 .

[sami jo]

I think Rinna brought out all kinds of feelings in Zev that he had no clue what to do with. I think it was more than infatuation, or it wouldn't have hit him so hard when he realized he was wrong. She certainly opened the door for the Warden. Was it LOVE? Eh, I loved the first person I dated (and still do, we are still close 20+ years later), but it was a completely different level of feeling than I have for my spouse. What he felt for Rinna wasn't on the same level as what he ends up feeling for the Warden, but she opens up too many deeply buried parts of him for me to tack the term infatuation to it.

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

It depends on which options you pick during the Rinna conversation, but Zevran kind of confirms that he fell in love by not denying it.  I thought it might be infatuation until I saw that option.

He also (with certain dialogue options) explains that it wasn't a case of not caring enough for Rinna to let her live.  It was the other way round.  He was so scared of his own feelings for her that he didn't want to know the truth.    That part is quite chilling.

I think Rinna probably did love him back.  She told him she did, and he seems to think that she did. 

All that makes the context of his comments about love (if you choose that option) after the first tent time, much more meaningful. 

He doesn't confirm it.  No matter how you answer there, it's exactly the same.  And he was fine with her death until he learned of her innocence.  But I do believe he may have thought of himself in love, though until he fell in love with the warden, he had no clue WHAT love was.

It's his declaration of love to the warden, though, that convinces me he wasn't in love with Rinna.  VO note confirmed this for me, but I felt that way before reading it.  It's this part here:

Warden: Are you saying you're in love with me?
Zevran: I don't know. How would you know such a thing? (embarassed that he knows nothing about love)

As far as her loving him?  There's just not enough information there for me to know one way or the other.  It's possible she did.  It's more likely she didn't because she also went through the crow training.  I think it's most likely it's a mutual infatuation.

It's the great thing about there only being a sketch of the story rather than it being all spelled out -- it's open to interpretation.  I don't see it as a tragic love story; I see the crow master as being just as important really.

Edit: YAY, ME1 finished downloading.  New game time!

Second edit: The toolset actually does say he can't believe he'd do something so horrible to someone he loved, but keeping in mind that it's a description of how the voice is supposed to sound, it's not really a confirmation that he actually loved her.  Maybe he did, but again, there's so much there that is open to interpretation.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 01:30 .

[sami jo]

EJ: I think you are right about the Crow master. What really seems to hit Zev is that no one cares that they killed Rinna. He and Rinna and everyone else are expendable and that seems to pretty much take his self worth and throw it out the window. He had worked hard and been successful and was still being told that he was valued by absolutely no one. Rinna opened up parts of him that he had hidden away, but had the master not made him feel worthless, he wouldn't have been ready to commit suicide by Warden.

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, toolset time on the Rinna conversation. *grin* It doesn't change my opinion at all, but it sure is interesting!

Zevran: My last mission before this one... did not end well. (grim, he is not eager to discuss it but feels he has to)
Warden: What happened?
Zevran: You must realize that until that day I was cocky and arrogant. I was the best Crow in Antiva, I believed, and I bragged of my conquests often... both as an assassin and lover. (telling an unhappy story)
Warden: You were more cocky and arrogant?
Zevran: Chuckles Indeed. I was often told I was insufferable... right before I ended up in bed with someone. Such is how it was. (amused but still laced with sadness)
Zevran: One of the Crow masters grew tired of my boasting. My bid for an incredibly difficult mark was accepted, much to my surprise: A wealthy merchant with many guards and completely silent. (telling an unhappy story)
Zevran: Taliesen agreed to be part of my team, as well as an elven lass named Rinna. She was... a marvel. Tough, smooth, wicked. Eyes that gleamed like justice. Everything I thought I desired. (telling an unhappy story)
Warden: And you fell in love.
Zevran: Rinna was special. I had closed off my heart, I thought, but she touched something within me. It frightened me. (sad, perhaps even guilty)
Zevran: When Taliesen revealed to me that Rinna had accepted a bribe from the merchant, told him of our plan, I readily agreed that she needed to pay the price and allowed Taliesen to kill her. (telling an unhappy story)
Zevran: Rinna begged me not to. On her knees, with tears in her eyes, she told me that she loved me and had not betrayed us. I laughed in her face and said that even if it were true, I didn't care. (telling an unhappy story -- his heart is breaking a little bit at this point)
Warden: But that wasn't true.
Zevran: I convinced myself it was. (sad)
Zevran: Taliesen cut her throat and I watched her bleed as she stared up at me. I spat on her for betraying the Crows. (telling an unhappy story)
Zevran: When Taliesen and I finally assassinated the merchant we found the true source of his information. Rinna had not betrayed us after all. (the end of his unhappy story -- shaking his head that he had done something so terrible to one he loved)
Zevran: I... wanted to tell the Crows what we had done, our mistake. Taliesen convinced me not to. He said it would be a foolish waste. So we reported that Rinna had died in the attempt. (sad, guilty)
Zevran: We needn't have bothered. The Crows knew what we had done. The master who disliked me told me so to my face. He said the Crows knew... and they didn't care. And one day my turn would come. (sad, guilty)
Warden: So you felt guilty?
Zevran: I felt empty. I felt as if I was nothing. I felt as if she had been nothing. (sad, guilty)
Zevran: You once asked why I wanted to leave the Crows. In truth, what I wanted was to die. What better way than to throw myself at one of the fabled Grey Wardens? (sad)
Zevran: And then... this happened. And here I am. (sad, said with a shrug -- he had wanted to die but fate had a different plan)
Warden: Why did you tell me this?
Zevran: You have been a friend to me, and more. Far more than I deserve. (sad but feeling better about it) (IF: APP_ZEVRAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVE)
Zevran: Whatever it is I sought by leaving Antiva, I think I have found it. I owe you a great deal.
Warden: I'm glad to have you with me.
Zevran: Let us return to your mission, shall we? Suddenly I do not feel like standing about. (shaking off his melancholy)

Edit: Formatting

Also to add:  It's easy to overanalyze the whole story.  What happened changed him profoundly, and I think that more than anything is what is important about the story.  Whether the love was real or infatuation, it's not really the point I don't think.

Second edit: Sami jo, you said it much better than I did.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 01:54 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Arundor wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

ok some pics... of KoTOR2 I took ages ago

I love HK in KOTOR2. They added so much more personality over his KOTOR1 variant. His mockery of Carth is the best. "Oh master, I do not trust you! I cannot trust you, or anyone, ever again!"

holy crap another person that thinks the same as me!

most people I know when I say I like HK in KoTOR2 more ae liek WTF NO!?

*cant wait to get screenies of the HK factory*

I agree the ME1 is much better, especially the story ... and the
ending is shocking.

I found both ME1 and ME2's story to be rather crap, I like ME2's characters *alot* more than ME1 and my favorite other than Wrex made a come back which would be Garrus... the res tof the ME1 crew can die in a fire and burn for all I care expecially Liara, Karthdan and the racist cow... shame I cant just kill the three off like I can Tali... and dont get me started ont he gameplay, the Mako was god awful, the inventory system made me want to cry and the gameplay in general was just bad

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 02 juin 2010 - 01:45 .

[Cuddlezarro]

ejoslin wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

@ ejoslin: You could play ME2 without playing ME1...but you'd be missing out on lots of references, as well as important backstory for some of the best characters in the series (Wrex, Garrus, Tali). Also, since ME2 uses your ME1 saves to carry over some of your ME1 decisions, you won't be getting that either: the game will just make default choices for you...and they're not necessarily ones you want. I know I definitely wouldn't want them, because they basically involve you killing everyone that can be killed; which obviously doesn't work if you're trying to play a good character. So I'd recommend you play ME1 first. Yes, it has some drawbacks by comparison with ME2 (damn inventory system...or lack thereof), but the story, for example, is better than in ME2. And it's still a great game. IMO, at least.

Ok, and it's not very expensive on Steam.  I will give it a try!  Thank you!

EJ since hte game as Nif says does import saved games well...

http://www.masseffectsaves.com/


do what i did and download one of those~ and change your name using this

http://www.mediafire.com/?ti2r3d2gx1y

oh and I would totally use it to max out your minerals as well so you dont have to go through the tedious pointlessness of the mining mini game