35177 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Thanks CZ! I'm not sure what I think about the voiced Shephard right now. I'll give it a chance, though. I hope I like the combat :/

[Cuddlezarro]

ejoslin wrote...

Thanks CZ! I'm not sure what I think about the voiced Shephard right now. I'll give it a chance, though. I hope I like the combat :/

think of ME as an interactive movie instead of a standard rpg like dragon age

and didnt you enjoy Fo3? I found ME2's combat to be better than that game(then again i only played Fo3 briefly at a friends house)

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 02 juin 2010 - 02:14 .

[ejoslin]

Elps wrote...

Thanks for posting this! It sure is frustrating not to have the toolset working!!!!
It doesn't change my opinion either but.... since you have the toolset open :innocent:... doesn't Zev say something at some point about it being nice to be recognised?

My take on the Rinna story is that it triggered a sense of hopelessness. Zev thought he was the best Crow in Antiva but his Master thought he was worthless & expendable. His self-confidence took a beating and there was no finesse or skill about Rinna's execution - he was disgusted by her supposed treason towards an organization he was proud of then found there really wasn't anything to be proud of. He didn't belong. He was just a tool to be used and discarded at will. 

With the Warden, he owes nothing except his dubious sense of honor and an oath he would honor only as long as it suits him. If the Warden treats him badly he will leave, or die trying. If the Warden treats him as a man, and a friend, accepts his past and doesn't condemn him for it, he has the freedom to become his own person. 

As a plot device, I feel the Rinna story is there to provide the catalyst for change. Zev has been a slave all his life and his Master's reaction to the Rinna incident was the last straw. 

I see it this way as well.  And even though I don't think it was love between he and Rinna, I also don't think it matters.  

Here's where he says it's nice to have ones efforts recognized.  It's after the poetry reading.  Hahahaha, I have to add the poetry reading itself because the VO notes crack me up.  But there's something off about the female variant.  Zevran has to have changed it a bit, because it's something said to a woman from a man, not the other way around.  The male variant is what Zevran had to have been told.  ANYWAY!

Zevran: It was recited to me, as I recall, by a rather wealthy target of mine. Let's see... "The symphony I see in thee / it whispers songs to me."  (his best poetry recitation voice -- this is romantic stuff)
Zevran: "Songs of hot breath upon my neck / songs of soft sighs by my head / songs of nails upon my back / songs of thee come to my bed." (his best poetry recitation voice -- this is romantic stuff)
Warden: What is that? Sex poetry?
Zevran: So she claimed. She was trying to seduce me, you see, and somehow thought that this would actually convince me to spare her. (like THAT would happen)
Zevran: I had sex with her anyway, but that goes without saying. She still had to die. The poem was amusing at the time, however, and thus I've always remembered it. (wistful memory)
Warden: You killed her anyway?
Zevran: Well, yes, but after we made love. What do you think I am, some kind of monster? (a bit affronted -- he has standards, after all)
Zevran: It's not as if she didn't enjoy herself. Certainly there are much less pleasant ways to spend your last hours, no? (he is amused but serious at the same time)
Warden: You are a saint amongst men, Zevran.
Zevran: You know, I kept telling the other Crows that, and yet they never felt the same way. (laughing)
Zevran: Here I thought you might be cheered up by some naughty poetry. You simply look so... unhappy. Such an unflattering expression for such a lovely face. (playful)
Warden: I appreciate the effort.
Zevran: Do you? It's always pleasing to have ones efforts recognized. Good karma all around! (amused)
Zevran: Me, I tend to make the best of whatever situation I find myself in, stealing what moments I can. It's served me well, most days. You might learn to do the same. (teasing)
Warden: I think I do the same, actually.
Zevran: Oh? Then I learn something new about you every day. (surprised)
Zevran: Enough poetry, I think. The time has come for traveling and the murdering of villains and whatever else passes for adventuring these days. (amused)

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 02:22 .

[ejoslin]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Thanks CZ! I'm not sure what I think about the voiced Shephard right now. I'll give it a chance, though. I hope I like the combat :/

think of ME as an interactive movie instead of a standard rpg like dragon age

and didnt you enjoy Fo3? I found ME2's combat to be better than that game(then again i only played Fo3 briefly at a friends house)

I love FO3.  I'm trying ME1 now.  If I hate it, I'll move onto ME2.  It's nice, though; since it's an older game, I have the graphics at the absolute highest settings, and not one hiccup.

[Nilfalasiel]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

EJ since hte game as Nif says does import saved games well...

http://www.masseffectsaves.com/

I don't know, I'd still recommend actually playing ME1, if only for the sake of consistency. It just makes the overall story have more impact, IMO. And for both Garrus and Wrex, actually seeing what they go through in ME1 makes their involvement in ME2 that much more significant. You don't get that from simply importing a save, and they are, most definitely two of the best and most popular characters in the series. Why would you want to miss out on their backstories and development?

As for the mining in ME2: the upgrade to the mineral scanner (dunno if you got it on the PC, but we certainly got it on 360) makes the process at *least* 20 times faster. Seriously, the difference is staggering. Considering you ALSO get a large bonus to minerals for importing an ME1 character, you really don't need to bother tweaking anything to give yourself more of them.

@ ejoslin: That Rinna dialogue

Although to be a bit nitpicky: he says that, when he left the Crows, he wanted to die. But then he goes on to say that "whatever I sought by leaving Antiva, I think I have found it"...He just said he sought death? That's certainly not what he found  I know what he means, but still, the phrasing strikes me as being a little off.

Going back to the bugged Denerim gates dialogue: I've watched the fixed vids, but obviously, I can't tell the difference from the bugged dialogue. Do you get different response options in the bugged version, or is it simply what Zev actually answers that's different?

I'm not really kidding myself that the bug has been fixed on PS3, but this is just my way of recognizing it when I finally get to that part.

*shakes fist at her laptop* Curse you, graphics card!

Edit: In ME1, you are playing a female Shepard, aren't you? Because her voice actress is about 10 times better than the male one, IMO. So if you think she's bad, well...don't try playing a male, lol.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 02 juin 2010 - 02:34 .

[Cuddlezarro]

ejoslin wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Thanks CZ! I'm not sure what I think about the voiced Shephard right now. I'll give it a chance, though. I hope I like the combat :/

think of ME as an interactive movie instead of a standard rpg like dragon age

and didnt you enjoy Fo3? I found ME2's combat to be better than that game(then again i only played Fo3 briefly at a friends house)

I love FO3.  I'm trying ME1 now.  If I hate it, I'll move onto ME2.  It's nice, though; since it's an older game, I have the graphics at the absolute highest settings, and not one hiccup.

ME1 hated my comp(as in crashed every time I booted up the game even when fully patched) had to play it at my friends house

I don't know, I'd still recommend actually playing ME1, if only for the
sake of consistency. It just makes the overall story have more impact,
IMO. And for both Garrus and Wrex, actually seeing what they go through
in ME1 makes their involvement in ME2 that much more significant. You
don't get that from simply importing a save, and they are, most
definitely two of the best and most popular characters in the series.
Why would you want to miss out on their backstories and development?
As
for the mining in ME2: the upgrade to the mineral scanner (dunno if you
got it on the PC, but we certainly got it on 360) makes the process at
*least* 20 times faster. Seriously, the difference is
staggering. Considering you ALSO get a large bonus to minerals for
importing an ME1 character, you really don't need to bother tweaking
anything to give yourself more of them.

Garrus and Wrex would be the only reason I kind of finished ME1... and Wrex well I liked him but really hespretty much Canderous 2.0

as for mining no the PC version doesnt have the super scanner and I doubt it would make it any more fun(sorry buit I despise forced minigames and it is forced unless you dont want to upgrade anything or phail the suicide mission horribly)

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 02 juin 2010 - 02:29 .

[ejoslin]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
@ ejoslin: That Rinna dialogue

Although to be a bit nitpicky: he says that, when he left the Crows, he wanted to die. But then he goes on to say that "whatever I sought by leaving Antiva, I think I have found it"...He just said he sought death? That's certainly not what he found  I know what he means, but still, the phrasing strikes me as being a little off.

Going back to the bugged Denerim gates dialogue: I've watched the fixed vids, but obviously, I can't tell the difference from the bugged dialogue. Do you get different response options in the bugged version, or is it simply what Zev actually answers that's different?

I'm not really kidding myself that the bug has been fixed on PS3, but this is just my way of recognizing it when I finally get to that part.

*shakes fist at her laptop* Curse you, graphics card!

Edit: In ME1, you are playing a female Shepard, aren't you? Because her voice actress is about 10 times better than the male one, IMO. So if you think she's bad, well...don't try playing a male, lol.

I am playing a female.  It's just weird -- I've never played a voiced character before.  But I haven't gotten very far into it either.

The entire gates dialog is different.  It's weird how much more dialog Zevran gets than the other companions there, actually.  He has an "in love," a "friendly," a "romance active," a "warm" and a "neutral/hostile", and they're all separate trees.  Everyone else, including Alistair and Morrigan, just have one basic tree with extra branches for the various approval levels (so a different option here and there).

If he calls you, "my friend" at the gates, you have the wrong dialog.  If you leave him at the gates, you'll get his "in love" dialog.  There's still the problem with "friendly" going to "warm," but you only have one small bug there if you're in love -- one of the friendly responses shows.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 02:44 .

[soignee]

Hmm, I'm worried I've made Zevran far too OOC, all this talk of Rinna has gotten me curious. It's a struggle writing two emotionally stunted characters as Missa would not sit down and go, "this is a story about my past that I'm not happy about" at all, or take pity and sympathy from anyone well.



Can the Rinna conversation take place before Taliesen shows up? I seem to remember having it as so, unless my mind is playing tricks on me.

[jenovan]

soignee wrote...

Can the Rinna conversation take place before Taliesen shows up? I seem to remember having it as so, unless my mind is playing tricks on me.

Oh yeah, definitely. The Rinna conversation comes up, IIRC, when a romanced character hits Adore (71?+), so if you're really pushing it, it can come up quite early.

I think it's with a friend that it won't come up until after Taliesen (Friendly, 90+).

Modifié par jenovan, 02 juin 2010 - 03:10 .

[ejoslin]

Elps wrote...

THIS is disturbing (would probably be frowned upon by EA/Bioware too)... Zev underwear: http://www.cafepress...hong,422966231 

@ejoslin - perhaps Zev gets more dialog at the gates because his major storyline takes place after the Landsmeet is called? It may be a way to equalize the amount of dialog companions get???

I don't know.  I think there's far less dialog in Leliana's romance than the others, and it's by far the least complex, and she has the least to say at the gates as well.

Zevran's romance has some interesting things in it, I think (maybe because I tend to over-analyze things, though), even before he falls in love.  He views someone he's romancing so much differently than someone who's in the friend zone it seems.  He trusts them way sooner, he reveals a lot more about himself -- I can't say anything about Morrigan's romance, but with Leliana and Alistair, even romanced, you're not learning anything new about them (except, I guess, that Leliana has had adventures with pudding).  

I'm not sure if that even makes sense.

Edit: Yes, definitely about Rinna.  That is one way I think it shows how much more Zevran trusts a warden who's his lover and how deep his feelings are.  He will talk about Rinna at 71+ adore, but not romanced, you have to wait until he's +76 friendly.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 03:16 .

[soignee]

jenovan wrote...

soignee wrote...

Can the Rinna conversation take place before Taliesen shows up? I seem to remember having it as so, unless my mind is playing tricks on me.

Oh yeah, definitely. The Rinna conversation comes up when a romanced character hits Adore (71?+), so if you're really pushing it, it can come up quite early.

I think it's with a friend that it won't come up until after Taliesen (Friendly, 90+).

ffffffff-

I think I'm breaking into OOC territory here, because I'm making him confess it out of his own will, no prompting. But I have to do something to push them forward because they're currently acting like surly kids who don't know how to deal with this feeling and love crap, and Missa's srsbzns face is on.

I have to push the relationship forward a little though, just a little. I'm sure people are sick of, "and then they had sex to hide away their awkwardness and not deal with things. Again." It's just treacle slow, is all.

Modifié par soignee, 02 juin 2010 - 03:16 .

[ejoslin]

soignee wrote...

ffffffff-

I think I'm breaking into OOC territory here, because I'm making him confess it out of his own will, no prompting. But I have to do something to push them forward because they're currently acting like surly kids who don't know how to deal with this feeling and love crap, and Missa's srsbzns face is on.

I have to push the relationship forward a little though, just a little. I'm sure people are sick of, "and then they had sex to hide away their awkwardness anot deal with things. Again." It's just treacle slow, is all.

I don't think it's out of character, though.  Actually, this may help you.  You get this beginning to the story if he's at Adore and he hasn't refused to talk about it before.

Warden: So tell me more about your adventures.
Zevran: I wouldn't have spoken about it before, but... you have been a good friend. There is no reason for me not to speak of it now.

So it CAN come from out of the blue, so to speak.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 03:19 .

[soignee]

alright, that makes me feel better. *handwave*



NOTHING HAPPENED, NOTHING TO SEE HERE

[Sannox]

I don't really see the toolset comments as confirming that Zevran wasn't in love. It seems the other way around!   But it was the warden being able to bring up the subject that confirmed it for me.   Why even have that line there?    If he wasn't in love, he would deny it at that point, and he doesn't.  He just accepts it.

And why wouldn't he fall in love?  He has been trained to be cold, but there's plenty of clues that it's something he tries to be rather than something he is.  It would be natural that they would sometimes fall in love, working closely together. 

Rinna, the only thing that we really know that she said she was in love, and Zevran thought she was.  I don't really see a reason to doubt that.

Elps, it's possible that his superiors did know about it and try to punish him.   Zevran was set up for the merchant job because he was getting too big for his boots, the way he tells it.  Perhaps Rinnna's 'betrayal' was also a set up.  That information must have come from somewhere.   If so, it was an incredibly cruel way to teach him a lesson, but clearly showed the point that they were trying to make - that they were expendable. 

Why does it matter if they were in love?  I think, because it shows Zevran's later actions and interactions with the warden in a different light.  If he felt love and hated the feeling, was scared, and ended up being so cruel to the person who inspired it - it really explains a lot.   (ETA: I agree about the Crow master being an important part of the story.   But I do think the story is slightly less powerful if there isn't love involved).

Modifié par Sannox, 02 juin 2010 - 03:36 .

[ejoslin]

@Sannox I don't think the toolset confirms or denies it. I think there is room for interpretation. What makes me think that he wasn't in love is because he says he knows nothing about being in love when declaring his feelings. Had he felt love before, he'd know what it was. But again, it's open to interpretation. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying my interpretation of the story is different.



@Elps, yes, you need the romance turned on and he needs to be at 70 (care) or below for him to leave.

[Sannox]

soignee wrote...

Hmm, I'm worried I've made Zevran far too OOC, all this talk of Rinna has gotten me curious. It's a struggle writing two emotionally stunted characters as Missa would not sit down and go, "this is a story about my past that I'm not happy about" at all, or take pity and sympathy from anyone well.

Can the Rinna conversation take place before Taliesen shows up? I seem to remember having it as so, unless my mind is playing tricks on me.

I've read people's fiction in which they see Zevran differently to the way I do, and it has still worked for me.   Jenovan wrote a story a while back about Zevran's first mark which was different to how I'd imagined it happening, yet I loved the story and could completely see it that way.  So I wouldn't worry if he might be OOC for somebody else.  It's your Zevran.  (I do think of writers as having their own Zevrans!). 

It surprised me how early the Rinna conversation came, when I first got it.  I think my character had barely started going to the tent with him.   It wasn't in camp, I remember.  It was in Haven and I must have clicked on him, not expecting anything, and got that amazingly heartbreaking conversation, and him saying that he'd found what he was looking for.  Wow! So yes, ages before Taliesin, for me. 

Modifié par Sannox, 02 juin 2010 - 03:53 .

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

I don't really see the toolset comments as confirming that Zevran wasn't in love. It seems the other way around!   But it was the warden being able to bring up the subject that confirmed it for me.   Why even have that line there?    If he wasn't in love, he would deny it at that point, and he doesn't.  He just accepts it.

And why wouldn't he fall in love?  He has been trained to be cold, but there's plenty of clues that it's something he tries to be rather than something he is.  It would be natural that they would sometimes fall in love, working closely together. 

Rinna, the only thing that we really know that she said she was in love, and Zevran thought she was.  I don't really see a reason to doubt that.

Elps, it's possible that his superiors did know about it and try to punish him.   Zevran was set up for the merchant job because he was getting too big for his boots, the way he tells it.  Perhaps Rinnna's 'betrayal' was also a set up.  That information must have come from somewhere.   If so, it was an incredibly cruel way to teach him a lesson, but clearly showed the point that they were trying to make - that they were expendable. 

Why does it matter if they were in love?  I think, because it shows Zevran's later actions and interactions with the warden in a different light.  If he felt love and hated the feeling, was scared, and ended up being so cruel to the person who inspired it - it really explains a lot.   (ETA: I agree about the Crow master being an important part of the story.   But I do think the story is slightly less powerful if there isn't love involved).

I started answering this in a previous message, but I actually want to devote a bit more time to it.

All of what you say is possible, but it's not in game; therefore, not the only possible interpretation.

But this could be why we see the later romance, after he falls in love, so differently.  After he falls in love, or realizes the warden is his close friend, he realizes that what he thought were feelings of at least friendship really were not.  I think it's the same with love.  These are people who are trained not to love, to care, to form attachments -- so the attachments that did form would be far shallower than what people who haven't been through that type of trauma would feel.

Once Zevran hits adore, I believe he is feeling more for the warden than he's ever felt for anyone.  Here's why (again, not in game really so it's my interpretation).  He may leave the encounter with Taliesen if the romance is active and he hasn't hit adore.  There's a conflict there -- I think the feelings he has for Taliesen are just as strong as the feelings he has for the warden.  He leaves Taliesen to his fate, yes, but keep in mind he still wants to escape the crows.  Once he hits adore, there's no conflict, Zevran sides with the warden -- you can actually go the route where he basically publicly dumps Taliesen.

I think there was probably the same conflict between Taliesen and Rinna.  A different kind of feeling (I think two men together have a different dynamic than a relationship between a man and woman though perhaps I'm wrong).  But I doubt that Zevran cared for Rinna more than Taliesen.

I also don't think he hated what he felt for Rinna.  It scared him, yes.  But I can't get beyond the fact that he gave the go ahead to kill her, watched, and spit on her.  He was frightened of his feelings, but I cannot believe that those feelings were actually love.  Under other circumstances they may have developed into love.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying he killed Rinna because he fell in love with her.  I don't see that, though.  There's a lot going on in that story, but I don't see that.  But it would explain why we see the end of the romance so differently.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 04:02 .