35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sannox]

I meant to say that some of what he says about friends (and possibly love as well) doesn't fit well together over time.   He makes a big deal about not having friends in the Crows, and then finding the idea of being more than friends 'novel', but you'd probably had that out with him before the first tent time anyway!   You can say that you could always use a friend, and he can ask if you want to be more than friends.   He also can say that Taliesin was a friend and more.  Either he's inconsistent in his use of the word, or ... something.  

@Elps and EJ, it does seem to be open to interpretation.   But there are a few things that lean me towards thinking it was love, on both sides. 

@ Elps, I don't think he would turn on the warden in the same way, ever.    But I do think it's important that he did what he did it to somebody he loved.  When he talks about finding out that Rinna was innocent, the warden can say You had no way of knowin that', and he says 'Of course not.  I didn't care to know'.  One intepretation is that he was so scared by his feelings for Rinna that he subconsciously wanted her to be guilty.  There's a suggestion that he could maybe have looked for evidence, or even given her the benefit of the doubt - but he didn't care to know.    It's a very, very dark little story.    I think it's very trusting of him to share it, and I don't think it's in any way a warning that he might do it again.  

Page topper.  I'll look for something!

Kaoiku's sketch of Zevran's tattoos:

Modifié par Sannox, 02 juin 2010 - 07:47 .

[jenovan]

Hmm, topic's shifted more from Taliesen to Rinna, but I'm remembering this now, so Imma posting it now. ;P

Just a song that seemed fitting for the two Crows: The Bitter End by Placebo. (Hopefully that video is any good... I can't get to youtube here, but thank goodness for Google. ;P)

The second verse seems particularly appropriate, maybe:

Every step we take that's synchronized
Every broken bone
Reminds me of the second time
That I followed you home
You shower me with lullabies
As you're walking away
Reminds me that it's killing time
On this fateful day

See you at the bitter end

Edit: WTB formatting that doesn't suck.

Modifié par jenovan, 02 juin 2010 - 04:22 .

[ejoslin]

Well, the whole "more than friends" I think is an oversight. If you're at friendly and choose that, it turns on the romance, and his reaction does make sense in that case. If he's already in a romance, no, it is just odd, especially considering how the conversation goes if the warden tells him they're friends. Why would Zevran tell his friend that he's going to see it through to the end, that he is going to make sure the warden survives it, and basically offer to die -- but for his lover, just act shocked that, oh, there may be something more than friendship there?

Especially since the conversation happens after he offers the earring for the first time and after he may have told the warden, "you have been a friend, and more. More than I deserve." The conversation can conceivably happen after the royal scandal talk.  It does happen after the warden tells him that they want him to stay with him/her.  His reaction to that line does not make sense as a lover.  But there's a lot in the end that is rushed as well.

And I don't disagree that Zevran wanted her to be guilty. He pretty much says that. He can't believe he did something so awful to her.

He doesn't seem to genuinely mourn her, though, as someone would mourn someone who lost someone they love. He hates what he did, hates his part in it, is disgusted by his actions, feels guilty because, well, he IS guilty. But less than a year later, he does fall in love, for real.

Edit: Again, I believe had circumstances been different, they may have fallen in love.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 04:32 .

[soignee]

jenovan wrote...

Hmm, topic's shifted more from Taliesen to Rinna, but I'm remembering this now, so Imma posting it now. ;P

Just a song that seemed fitting for the two Crows: The Bitter End by Placebo. (Hopefully that video is any good... I can't get to youtube here, but thank goodness for Google. ;P)

The second verse seems particularly appropriate, maybe:

Every step we take that's synchronized
Every broken bone
Reminds me of the second time
That I followed you home
You shower me with lullabies
As you're walking away
Reminds me that it's killing time
On this fateful day

See you at the bitter end

Edit: WTB formatting that doesn't suck.

[anecdote]
I used to babysit the drummer's kid when I was a teenager, when he was still in it of course.

[/anecdote]

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying he killed Rinna because he fell in love with her.  I don't see that, though.  There's a lot going on in that story, but I don't see that.  But it would explain why we see the end of the romance so differently.

Your post was really thoughtul.  I'm just picking this one bit out because I'm coming and going and having conversations IRL at the moment and can't concentrate on it all at once!  I didn't know that we did see the end of the romance differently :happy:.   But re the above, I don't think he killed her because he fell for her, exactly, but I do think his fear contributed in a small way - that it was maybe the reason that he 'didn't care to know'.   He doesn't really give another reason in that conversation.   I don't take it to mean that he didn't care about her, but that he avoided the truth.  He could have tried to find her innocent, but he didn't.   If he had just cared for a bit but not been in love (and therefore, scared of his own feelings), perhaps he would have listened to her side of the story, or waited until they had some evidence.  Perhaps not. 

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, the whole "more than friends" I think is an oversight. If you're at friendly and choose that, it turns on the romance, and his reaction does make sense in that case. If he's already in a romance, no, it is just odd, especially considering how the conversation goes if the warden tells him they're friends. Why would Zevran tell his friend that he's going to see it through to the end, that he is going to make sure the warden survives it, and basically offer to die -- but for his lover, just act shocked that, oh, there may be something more than friendship there?

Especially since the conversation happens after he offers the earring for the first time and after he may have told the warden, "you have been a friend, and more. More than I deserve." The conversation can conceivably happen after the royal scandal talk.  It does happen after the warden tells him that they want him to stay with him/her.  His reaction to that line does not make sense as a lover.  But there's a lot in the end that is rushed as well.

And I don't disagree that Zevran wanted her to be guilty. He pretty much says that. He can't believe he did something so awful to her.

He doesn't seem to genuinely mourn her, though, as someone would mourn someone who lost someone they love. He hates what he did, hates his part in it, is disgusted by his actions, feels guilty because, well, he IS guilty. But less than a year later, he does fall in love, for real.

Edit: Again, I believe had circumstances been different, they may have fallen in love.  

I think that whole conversation ('more than friends') should probably have been rewritten before the game was released.  It's jarring.  I know you've done what you can to fix it.   Thank you for that.  

I'm not sure about the mourning.   He is not forthcoming about everything.  He doesn't mention that Taliesin was a 'friend and more' when in love.   My feeling about that is that he tends to deal with his feelings on his own and he spares the warden that information.    Just because he doesn't talk about Rinna (apart from once) doesn't he mean he doesn't mourn her.  But ....l would imagine that he would avoid dwelling on it.  And also, he is thrust into a very different and new situation, and a much more positive one that he could ever expect. 

Modifié par Sannox, 02 juin 2010 - 07:49 .

[jenovan]

soignee wrote...

jenovan wrote...

Hmm, topic's shifted more from Taliesen to Rinna, but I'm remembering this now, so Imma posting it now. ;P

Just a song that seemed fitting for the two Crows: The Bitter End by Placebo. (Hopefully that video is any good... I can't get to youtube here, but thank goodness for Google. ;P)

[anecdote]
I used to babysit the drummer's kid when I was a teenager, when he was still in it of course.

[/anecdote]

Wow!   Fan of their music at all?  (That just seems funnier if you aren't, heh. )

[Corker]

soignee wrote...
It's a struggle writing two emotionally stunted characters as Missa would not sit down and go, "this is a story about my past that I'm not happy about" at all, or take pity and sympathy from anyone well.

soignee - Maybe in the context of Telling People Things?  Much more angry than introspective?  Because I am all about telling Wynne (for example; Alistair or Leiiana work too) how wrong, wrong, wrong they are about How Life Is.

I have an exchange with Wynne in my head:

Wynne: Love is ultimately selfish.
Brosca: Do you... do you think about what you're saying?  Honestly?  Selfish is a pimp trying to ride his noble hunter to a cushy palace life.  Love is the noble hunter working that job so her sister doesn't have to.  Selfish  is taking the money for lichen bread and spending it on lichen ale.  Love is going out to beg for more money so your family, including the drunk, doesn't starve.  Do you see the difference here?

Possibly a tad more rhetoric than a Brosca ought to muster, but *cough* it's an example.

A more sympathetic character might then follow up on that rant to learn the story that's suggested there.  Missa might not take it well, but she might also wish to demonstrate that she's So Strong and Tough that she can talk about it.  It doesn't really hurt.  So you want to know? Fine. Know.  Now go away.

Modifié par Corker, 02 juin 2010 - 05:07 .

[soignee]

Corker wrote...

soignee wrote...
It's a struggle writing two emotionally stunted characters as Missa would not sit down and go, "this is a story about my past that I'm not happy about" at all, or take pity and sympathy from anyone well.

soignee - Maybe in the context of Telling People Things?  Much more angry than introspective?  Because I am all about telling Wynne (for example; Alistair or Leiiana work too) how wrong, wrong, wrong they are about How Life Is.

I have an exchange with Wynne in my head:

Wynne: Love is ultimately selfish.
Brosca: Do you... do you think about what you're saying?  Honestly?  Selfish is a pimp trying to ride his noble hunter to a cushy palace life.  Love is the noble hunter working that job so her sister doesn't have to.  Selfish  is taking the money for lichen bread and spending it on lichen ale.  Love is going out to beg for more money so your family, including the drunk, doesn't starve.  Do you see the difference here?

Possibly a tad more rhetoric than a Brosca ought to muster, but *cough* it's an example.

A more sympathetic character might then follow up on that rant to learn the story that's suggested there.  Missa might not take it well, but she might also wish to demonstrate that she's So Strong and Tough that she can talk about it.  It doesn't really hurt.  So you want to know? Fine. Know.  Now go away.

Missa's shared Mammy Dearest abuse horror stories with Alistair and Morrigan, the former to shake him by the scruff to show that having a family doesn't immdiately mean free love, and the latter because MY MOTHER'S A B*TCH TOO OMG, so she has done that. But it's more difficult to work out with Zevran due to this feeling nonsense.

I guess I'm reluctant to write it as Missa's ultimately scared sh*tless of what Zevran's making her feel, and she's trying not to let it affect her "job" where she thinks she's got to be tough as nails and show no vulnerability, even though it's pretty damn obvious to everyone else what's going on.

Ah, why do I write a such an emotionally stunted (lol dwarf amirite) woman? Thanks brain. My next fanfic will be about a hippy elf who likes flowers, I swear.

[Sannox]

Jumping in and out, another thing that I forgot to mention: one reason why I didn't initially think Zevran was in love was because I didn't get the impression he'd known Rinna very long. (But I think he does fall in love quickly - I think he's in love with the warden long before he starts to recognise it.)

@ Soignee, I get the feeling that female dwarf commoners tend to be blunt, but not expressive. It goes with that background, I think. It's hard to imagine them gushing about their emotions!

Modifié par Sannox, 02 juin 2010 - 05:38 .

[Ramante]

Elps wrote...

Oh dear! Poor Alistair is getting his marching orders tomorrow. I so wish there was a dialog option to remind him that my PC is a blood mage though. It's frustrating to use blood magic in front of Alistair, Wynne and co. and not have anyone react!!!  Hmmm... wonder if I can add a new dialog to the Orzammar criers: "News of the hour - future King of Ferelden, former Templar Alistair, involved in shady liaison with maleficar!"

Look out Zev! Here she comes!

This! I hate this so much. My mage is also a bloodmage and the only bloodmage related talk she had was when Wynne told Greagoir and Irving that my Warden's magic looked a lot like the blood mage's magic. That was all, I expected more.. I expected a reaction from Jowan in the Redcliff Dungeon and in the Gauntlet; you're a better mage than I will ever be' (paraphrased). I'm exactly like him (though he is correct about the 'better' part )

ejoslin wrote...
 Once he hits adore, there's no conflict, Zevran sides with the warden
-- you can actually go the route where he basically publicly dumps
Taliesen.

I'm sure I have done this, but.. how does it go? x.x'

[ejoslin]

Ramante wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
 Once he hits adore, there's no conflict, Zevran sides with the warden
-- you can actually go the route where he basically publicly dumps
Taliesen.

I'm sure I have done this, but.. how does it go? x.x'

Taliesen: You can return with me, Zevran. I know why you did this, and I don't blame you. It's not too late. Come back and we'll make up a story. Anyone can make a mistake.
Warden: Zevran belongs with me now. (IF: APP_ZEVRAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVEand IF: APP_ZEVRAN_IS_ADORE)
Talisen: Laughs You don't even know who you're talking about, do you?
Zevran: And neither do you, Taliesen.
Zevran: I'm sorry, my old friend. But the answer is no. I'm not coming back... and you should have stayed in Antiva. 

Edit: @Sannox I think what we disagree upon is the depth of feeling.  I also think Zevran was falling in love the entire time, and once he hit adore he cared for the warden more than he ever cared for anyone.  I just don't see two assassins sharing that.

I think the reason why Zevran tells a warden he cares for but doesn't adore about him and Taliesen is because it's relevant to their relationship (certainly is why he left).  After he hits adore, it no longer is.  It's in his past.  But given this exchange, it seems the warden has an inkling that they were lovers.  

SO much is left unsaid!

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 06:04 .

[Ramante]

ejoslin wrote...

Ramante wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
 Once he hits adore, there's no conflict, Zevran sides with the warden
-- you can actually go the route where he basically publicly dumps
Taliesen.

I'm sure I have done this, but.. how does it go? x.x'

Taliesen: You can return with me, Zevran. I know why you did this, and I don't blame you. It's not too late. Come back and we'll make up a story. Anyone can make a mistake.
Warden: Zevran belongs with me now. (IF: APP_ZEVRAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVEand IF: APP_ZEVRAN_IS_ADORE)
Talisen: Laughs You don't even know who you're talking about, do you?
Zevran: And neither do you, Taliesen.
Zevran: I'm sorry, my old friend. But the answer is no. I'm not coming back... and you should have stayed in Antiva. 

Thanks. =3

Someone started a thread about the meaning of the NPC names and I checked Zevran, but it wasn't there. I did find the meaning of 'Zev' and apparently it means wolf, at first I didn't like it because it would have been more fitting if it had been crow. But now I thought a little more about it and it actually makes sense to me, wolves are extremely loyal to their leader and you can say the same about Zevran.. or maybe I just want it to fit, so I'm reading too much into it. >>'

[Creature 1]

If the devs decided to name Zevran that because it meant "crow", I'd have to smack them upside the head. 

[Nonvita]

Lol @ Creature.





Ahhh the Taliesin/Zev/Rinna talk again. Agreed with Sami about Zev/Rinna, and apparently disagreed with just about everyone regarding Taliesin/Zev. It's too early in the morning (OK OK it's noon...) and I'm just getting my coffee now, so my brain will not formulate complex enough thoughts to reexplain my opinions, however...

[Ramante]

Creature 1 wrote...

If the devs decided to name Zevran that because it meant "crow", I'd have to smack them upside the head. 

I was more surprised about the fact that from all the animals they took wolf, it's not the first thing that comes to mind when I compare Zevran to an animal. After thinking about it it makes sense, but if they really took the meaning of Zev for his name then I don't like it. Some of the other npc's have better names. >>'

This post makes no sense at all, ignore me.

Edit: anyone knows which spells work with a BM/SH? I have 3 tomes and I can level up 4 more times, so I need to decide which spells to pick. x.x

Modifié par Ramante, 02 juin 2010 - 07:09 .

[Sannox]

I wonder if Zevran is a variant of Severin?

Modifié par Sannox, 02 juin 2010 - 07:17 .

[Sannox]

Ramante wrote...
Edit: anyone knows which spells work with a BM/SH? I have 3 tomes and I can level up 4 more times, so I need to decide which spells to pick. x.x

I don't know what works best, but I really like to have group heal and revive in the spirit healer tree, and blood sacrifice and blood wound in the BM tree.  (I may have the names wrong).

I love mana clash to one shot mages, so I usually fill that out.   And I like cone of cold to use with blood wound.  

[Sarah1281]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wasn't happy you only got a month between ME1 and ME2, though. At least for Awakening it was six months! 

Well, technically, it's 2 years before the actual ME2 storyline starts.

Two years that are spent dead after only having a month of 'yay, I'm a hero' time. That's not even enough time for the Council to really start their whitewashing, they had just begun to say 'you know, maybe it was the Geth all along. Better go look for them.'

[Nonvita]

Ramante wrote...

Edit: anyone knows which spells work with a BM/SH? I have 3 tomes and I can level up 4 more times, so I need to decide which spells to pick. x.x

I haven't actually gotten to play her so I have no idea if this is actually a good list or not, but these are the spells I had planned for my elementalist/spirit BM/SH:
Winter's Grasp
Flame Blast
Mind Blast
Walking Bomb
Death Syphon
Lightning
Frost Weapons
Cone of Cold
Force Field
Mana Drain
Mana Cleanse
Spell
Might
Mana Clash
Flaming
Weapons
Fireball
Heal
Rejuvenate
Regeneration
Group
Heal
Blood Magic
Blood Sacrifice
Blood Wound
Blood
Control
Spell Shield
Vulnerability Hex
Drain Life
Rock Armor
Shock
Telekinetic Weapons
Crushing Prison
Revival

Alternatively, you could take fewer elemental spells and more entropy (or even creation) spells, which would probably be better.

If you want better guides on it, I know they have some in the class Builds forum. Look in guides thread and there are some specifically for BM mages.

[Nilfalasiel]

*tosses 2 cents into the thread*

This is coming from someone who hasn't had the Rinna conversation yet, but I think this line is important:

Everything I thought I desired.

I think what Zev felt for Rinna is similar to what Alistair feels for the Warden (of course, with very different consequences and very different causes). It's the intensity of a first infatuation, and yes, it is love, but it's not the same kind that Zev eventually develops for the Warden. It's being "in love" rather than "loving", I guess. He has an image of Rinna in his head, and it's this image he wants, believing that this is what she really is. But when the person behind the image doesn't conform to it, he doesn't try to find out why, he doesn't give her a chance and actually sees it as a handy way out.

It's a form of intransigence that comes with first love: either the object of your affection is absolutely perfect, or they're worthless. And Rinna went through a whole string of situations where she appeared absolutely NOT as he wanted her to appear. From his description, he seems to have thought of her as bold, tough, seductive, but also committed to the common cause of the Crows (back then, he probably still felt proud of belonging to the group). Then, in order, she showed him that she was not as bold as he had thought (since she could apparently be bought), not as dedicated to the Crows (since she apparently decided to betray), not as tough (since she could plead for her life) and not a seductress (since she said she loved him)...But then, on top of all that, she showed him that he knew nothing about the real her: she wasn't a traitor, just as she wasn't the tough, self-assured girl; both images were wrong. Now, given their occupation and lifestyle, he probably had no way of knowing the real her--no easy way, at least--, but, more than that, he didn't care to know. And he probably realized that this was painfully true. In those kinds of situations, you tend to get angrier at the person who shows you your own flaws than at yourself (the realization that they were right comes afterwards). So everything she did just fuelled his violence more and more.

Then, when he came to his senses and was told that everything *else* he believed in was a lie as well, he realized the full weight of what he had done. 

And then he finds himself in a mirror-image situation: at the Warden's mercy, just as Rinna was at his mercy. He's forced to beg for his life, just as she was forced to (albeit in a less dramatic way). That was probably a very chilling experience for him. Here was a person who, put in the same position as he was with Rinna (and worse, because he was actually guilty, whereas she wasn't), decides to show him mercy, to discard immediate logic (which would dictate to kill him), to go beyond appearances. And eventually, she/he tries to get to know the real him, rather than the image which he projects. This is what he was afraid to do with Rinna, but seeing the Warden taking that route almost naturally makes him reevaluate his position. He opens up, tells her/him exactly who he is in order to test this new approach: just how much of the truth is she/he willing and capable to handle? Of course, it frightens him when the answer turns out to be "pretty much everything", because that's something he himself wasn't able to do not that long ago. But it also fascinates him, and he ends up realizing that this kind of acceptance is what he wants. Except that, this time, he's also willing to give it in return: he sees a real person rather than an image, respects her/his wishes, makes sure that wherever it is they're going is something she/he wants as well, even if neither of them is quite sure what that is at first. And, on top of that, he manages to retain the dignity to bow out if he happens to realize that he wants more than she/he can give.

Hopefully that made sense.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 02 juin 2010 - 08:06 .

[Korina1982]

I just wanted to delurk to say that that was the best explanation about Zev/Rinna and Zev/Warden that I've ever read, and I completely agree.

I'm also glad that I'm not the only one that thinks Alistair is only infatuated with a female Warden.

And, um... hi fellow Zevran fans! 

Modifié par Korina1982, 02 juin 2010 - 08:13 .

[Minaleth]

Hallo Korina!
*reads back the long posts*

Everything I thought I desired. Always meant to me that he didn't love her, but been in love. I still think so.
Anyway great analysis.

Modifié par Minaleth, 02 juin 2010 - 08:28 .

[ejoslin]

That makes a lot of sense.

Edit: and yes, hello Korina1982!  

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 juin 2010 - 08:20 .

[AnniLau]

Korina1982 wrote...

...Alistair is only infatuated with a female Warden.

Piffle.