35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Nilfalasiel]

I've heard it mentioned from various sources that kissing can be regarded as a greater sign of intimacy than sex. The example may be silly (and I kinda cringe to mention it), but if anybody here has seen Pretty Woman, it's a case in point: Julia Roberts' character considers kissing as a sign of genuine affection and love, and the story progression marks her falling in love by the fact that she allows herself to kiss Richard Gere's character.

Considering Zevran's been raised by prostitutes, there could be something similar going on there: kissing could be "discouraged" as a practice. Kind of like "do it at your own risk" (which is how it's presented in Pretty Woman as well). He does kiss the Warden before tent-time, but he could be thinking that he knows what he's doing, even if he really isn't. If you do consider this from the perspective that he's falling in love from the start, then it makes sense. 

Thinking that you're in control of an affectionate gesture and know exactly how much meaning you are (or aren't) putting into it is all well and good, but when you see someone else doing the same thing, that's a whole different can o' worms. Zev knows that Alistair is a lot more sentimental and less experienced (and therefore shy) than he is, so seeing him suddenly have the guts to kiss the Warden in public must mean that there are very real feelings involved (between Alistair and the Warden, of course). And he doesn't like that. Because we all know that he's ultimately doing a crappy job of keeping the relationship casual, no matter how much he harps on about it. Somewhere inside, he's already staked a claim to the Warden by that point, even if he's unaware of it or trying to ignore it.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 06 juin 2010 - 06:02 .

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

What I mean about it being public, is that that's the difference between the kisses in camp (which he doesn't object to) and the kisses outside camp. If it's not about it being public, what can it be about? Not the act of kissing, or the sex, or even the relationship - he's fine with all of those, up to a point.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am, because it's a long time since I played it), but this is before anything at all happens, apart from some conversation. He hasn't been to the tent, or kissed, or asked about the future yet.There isn't a 'relationship'.   Staking any sort of claim at that point would be rather creepy and stalkerish. Even if he felt like doing it, I'm sure he wouldn't make those feelings public - surely?

As I said before, he will object IF the romance is turned on.  The romance can be turned on before 26 (when those conversations happen) -- it shows up as blank on the approval bar.  What is causing his reaction is the romance being turned on.  That's the only flag.   So that dialog will trigger at higher approvals as well.

BTW, when he forces a choice, he is only pretending to be nonchalant about the whole thing.  How much of that conversation is only an act is a matter of roleplay, but at least some of it is an act.  In one conversation choice he's supposed to not be able to keep up the uncaring facade. 

Here it is:
Zevran: Oh, I don't know that "easy" is the right word. Perhaps "necessary" would be better. (trying to maintain his uncaring facade, not doing a very good job)

I like that.  What he says and what he feels are two different things, and he does have an awareness of this.

ANYWAY!  I think he's jealous :innocent:

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 juin 2010 - 06:12 .

[Sannox]

@ Nilf That's an interesting point about the role of kissing. I'm not sure though. Kissing doesn't bother him as long as it's not out in public. And as you say, he does kiss himself, right from the beginning. 

Again, I may well be remembering wrong (and DT has confused me), but does Zevran react adversely to the warden kissing Morrigan? If so, it's not about Alistair's shyness. If not, it's not about jealousy or staking a claim.

The staking a claim thing is really unpleasant. I'm not sure that I want to think of it like that. (In real life, a guy publicly staking a claim on you when you kiss your lover, because you've maybe made one flirty comment? Creepy). He can't be unaware of it or trying to ignore it, because he says it out loud - and not reluctantly. It's a while since I've heard it, but he sounded quite sure that he was right, not tentative.

@ Ejoslin That conversation is much later, when there is some sort of a relationship going on. If he's trying to maintain an uncaring facade even then, then surely he would do it before the relationship has even started? He denies being jealous then too - whatever he feels, why admit to jealousy before the relationship starts, but deny it later? It doesn't make sense.

(And straying from the point a bit, I'm not even at all sure that he is jealous when he has that later conversation.  He definitely cares, but there's nothing else to show that he is jealous, ever.  That's speculation.  Morrigan, for instance, admits jealousy, even though she doesn't want to feel it and isn't proud of it.   And he does give anothervery reasonable reason for not wanting to share,  But whether or not you think he feels jealousy or not, he doesn't admit to it.  If he wouldn't admit it then, then he wouldn't admit it earlier - so that can't be what he's talking about during that kiss moment).

Thanks for the confirmation that this can happen when the romance is turned on but before there's a 'relationship'.  That's what puts the claim-staking firmly in stalker territory.  I don't think it's in character.  

ETA: I have been editing this as I go along, sorry!

Modifié par Sannox, 06 juin 2010 - 06:30 .

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

@ Nilf That's an interesting point about the role of kissing. I'm not sure though. Kissing doesn't bother him as long as it's not out in public. And as you say, he does kiss himself, right from the beginning.

Again, I may well be remembering wrong (and DT has confused me), but does Zevran react adversely to the warden kissing Morrigan? If so, it's not about Alistair's shyness. If not, it's not about jealousy or staking a claim.

The staking a claim thing is really unpleasant. I'm not sure that I want to think of it like that. (In real life, a guy publicly staking a claim on you when you kiss your lover, because you've maybe made one flirty comment? Creepy). He can't be unaware of it or trying to ignore it, because he says it out loud - and not reluctantly. It's a while since I've heard it, but he sounded quite sure that he was right, not tentative.

@ Ejoslin That conversation is much later, when there is some sort of a relationship going on. If he's trying to maintain an uncaring facade even then, then surely he would do it before the relationship has even started? He denies being jealous then too - whatever he feels, why admit to jealousy before the relationship starts, but deny it later? It doesn't make sense.

The relationship HAS started at the beginning.  It has to have started for him react badly to the public kiss.  And yes, he reacts that way to Morrigan as well.  He laughs if the relationship is not on and gets upset if it is.

And it's not like he's saying, "hey, I'm jealous."  It just bothers him if you're in a relationship with him and kiss someone else.  I don't think it's a deliberate confrontation -- just a visceral reaction.

As far as it being creepy?  Not really; it's a game mechanic.  If you're in a relationship with both, if you kiss one, it's going to bother the other.  Leliana is the same way, though I'm not sure you can start the relationship as early as you can start it with Zevran.  However, it makes sense that it's set up that way as your approval can drop.  Once it gets to the point where he doesn't care, he's to the point where he'd break up anyway.

Edit: And i know the actual jealousy conversation happens later.  Someone else brought it up, though, so I threw it in as well  Because if he is jealous during the kiss earlier in the relationship, he is definitely lying about it during that conversation.  Especially since it's confirmed he's lying about other things in that conversation as well.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 juin 2010 - 06:30 .

[TanithAeyrs]

I usually don't romance both Ali and Zev at the same time so I guess I have never gotten Zev's reaction to publicly kissing Alistair - if someone has the gist of the comment I would love to see it. As far as the public kissing goes, in my mind I view the camp interactions as likely being more private - the game just doesn't allow for you to sneak off and snog behind a tree. I can see Zev objecting to kissing in public when you are romancing both because it's rude. He may see it as a manipulative ploy to play the LI's against eachother. Just a thought.

Modifié par TanithAeyrs, 06 juin 2010 - 06:31 .

[ejoslin]

Ok, here are comments of both Leliana and Zevran. Again, Zevran's vo notes are worthless in this case since in the scene itself, it's obvious he's irritated.

Alistair: Oh. But what about our audience? You don't think...?
Romanced Leliana: Oh, don't mind me. (rolling her eyes, "oh brother")
Alistair: Err... yeah. Let's just... not aggravate anyone, shall we?

Alistair: Oh. But what about our audience? You don't think...?
non-romanced Lel: Chuckles Oh, I think it's cute. (giggling)
Alistair: Well all right then. (amused)

Alstair: Oh. But what about our audience? You don't think...?
Romanced Zevran: Just treat me as if I'm not here. I don't mind. (mischievious)
Alistair: Err... no. Let's not. (displeased)

Alstair: Oh. But what about our audience? You don't think...?
Not Romanced Zevran: Laughs I've seen it a time or two. I won't gawk, trust me. (mischievious)
Alistair: Well all right then. (amused)

Morrigan: And you wish to do this in front of an audience, do you?
Romanced Lel: How sweet. (sarcasm)
Morrigan: And suddenly I want to do nothing more. 'Tis odd, no? (exasperated -- she is not going to kiss anyone with Leliana watching)

Morrigan: And you wish to do this in front of an audience, do you?
Lel: Oh, go on you two. (amused)
Morrigan: Oh, you hear that? It seems we have approval. (playful, laughing)

Morrigan: And you wish to do this in front of an audience, do you?
Romanced Zevran: Mmm. Such a display. (amused)
Morrigan: And suddenly I want to do nothing more. 'Tis odd, no?

Morrigan: And you wish to do this in front of an audience, do you?
Zevran: You're worried about me? Laughs I was born in a ****house, so no need. (amused)
Morrigan: Oh, you hear that? It seems we have approval. (playful, laughing)

Edit: When copy and paste go BAD!

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 juin 2010 - 06:41 .

[Sannox]

The romance being turned on is different from a 'relationship', though. Probably all that will have happened is that the warden will have made a flirty comment or returned one in kind. There has been no kissing, no sex, no acknowledgement that there's a 'relationship' at all. If his response is staking a claim, it's an extreme over-reaction to a flirty comment, and I find it hard to see him that way.



I agree that he's not saying he's jealous. He can't be, I don't think, because it doesn't make sense (whether he feels it or not). So what is he saying? That's what I can't work out for sure. Whatever it is, he sounds confident about it.



I've got some stuff to do, but I might see if I can uninstall DT and get another look at those conversations, see if any better explanation comes to mind.

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

The romance being turned on is different from a 'relationship', though. Probably all that will have happened is that the warden will have made a flirty comment or returned one in kind. There has been no kissing, no sex, no acknowledgement that there's a 'relationship' at all. If his response is staking a claim, it's an extreme over-reaction to a flirty comment, and I find it hard to see him that way.

I agree that he's not saying he's jealous. He can't be, I don't think, because it doesn't make sense (whether he feels it or not). So what is he saying? That's what I can't work out for sure. Whatever it is, he sounds confident about it.

I've got some stuff to do, but I might see if I can uninstall DT and get another look at those conversations, see if any better explanation comes to mind.

Again, I think it's a game mechanic.  Say you have both men at care, and his drops down to neutral.  The relationship doesn't cut off until he drops to hostile, so you can't have him stop caring until that point.

There are limits put in to what they can do in the actual programming.  And giving all they got wrong with the way they have it, I'm glad they didn't attempt to have it any more complicated. 

Edit: Another thought.  Maybe I'm just more insecure than most people (I seriously doubt that, though), but if I really liked someone, and they seemed to return the feelings and even encouraged them, even if it hadn't developed into a relationship yet, I would probably be jealous if I were out with him and someone else and he started kissing her.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 juin 2010 - 06:48 .

[Sannox]

Oh, thanks for the transcripts, EJ! (I was going to edit my post, but I'll do another post instead of keeping confusing things).
I agree that the voice (as I remember) doesn't match 'mischievious'. He sounds almost indignant. The VO notes do make a LOT more sense, though. I wonder if it was actually a mistake, then, and the VO notes were what was intended?

Modifié par Sannox, 06 juin 2010 - 06:49 .

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

Oh, thanks for the transcripts, EJ! (I was going to edit my post, but I'll do another post instead of keeping confusing things).
I agree that the voice (as I remember) doesn't match 'mischievious'. He sounds almost indignant. The VO notes do make a LOT more sense, though. I wonder if it was actually a mistake, then, and the VO notes were what was intended?

No.  Because the animation and facial expressions don't match the VO notes.  Plus, the scripted disapproval is very clear -- even if he were laughing the entire time, you'd still get hit with that -3 disapproval.  Which as you know is a pretty big hit from Zevran. Often, as well, the VO notes don't reflect what the person is really feeling, but only how the voice is supposed to sound. 

A good example is him talking about the Dalish.  The voice is supposed to sound like he's telling a boring story.  But it's obvious he does not find this a boring story -- when you combine the words and the facial animations, it comes across entirely different.  I think it was to prevent him from sounding whiny when telling the story.

Edit: For clarity.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 juin 2010 - 06:54 .

[TanithAeyrs]

Thanks EJ. The VO notes seem more in keeping with Zev than the indignant tone that is being talked about on this thread. I guess my characters so far just respect their LI's too much to chase two at the same time (unless I'm ninja romanced - Ali and Leliana have both done it to me and I always have the rejection talk with them as soon a I realize it). I'll probably have characters in the future with different attitudes but I have DT installed so I'll probably never hear the actual comment.

[ejoslin]

TanithAeyrs wrote...

Thanks EJ. The VO notes seem more in keeping with Zev than the indignant tone that is being talked about on this thread. I guess my characters so far just respect their LI's too much to chase two at the same time (unless I'm ninja romanced - Ali and Leliana have both done it to me and I always have the rejection talk with them as soon a I realize it). I'll probably have characters in the future with different attitudes but I have DT installed so I'll probably never hear the actual comment.

DT doesn't take away the comments when it comes to Alistair and Morrigan, does it?  I thought it just added a kiss and perhaps comments (though you can get the no-comment version) for Zevran and Leliana.

Zevran does not come across as "mischievious" in the game, though.  ALSO, even if he did (which he doesn't), you get -3 disapproval each time from him if the romance is active.  He looks annoyed as well.

Edit: The VO notes are interesting.  There are quite a few places where the voice does not match the animation, and I love that level of detail.

In case you're wondering, the facial expressions for Zevran's responses are different as well.  When in a romance, he is supposed to be looking at the player and have the default expression.  When not romanced, he's looking straight ahead and is supposed to have the happy/default expression.  This shows that the VO notes, even though they both say mischievious, there are other differences.

Second edit: The difference in facial expressions are even more interesting with Morrigan. Not romanced, the facial expression is happy/thinking.  If romanced, the expression is happy/fake.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 juin 2010 - 07:07 .

[Creature 1]

Sannox wrote...

The romance being turned on is different from a 'relationship', though. Probably all that will have happened is that the warden will have made a flirty comment or returned one in kind. There has been no kissing, no sex, no acknowledgement that there's a 'relationship' at all. If his response is staking a claim, it's an extreme over-reaction to a flirty comment, and I find it hard to see him that way.

I always figure there's a lot going on behind the scenes, and the devs can't fine-tune the romances that much.  So I would ignore the too-early jealousy as a game mechanic coded that way for simplicity's sake, though I haven't run into it yet because I only romance one character usually. 

[TanithAeyrs]

ejoslin wrote...

TanithAeyrs wrote...

Thanks EJ. The VO notes seem more in keeping with Zev than the indignant tone that is being talked about on this thread. I guess my characters so far just respect their LI's too much to chase two at the same time (unless I'm ninja romanced - Ali and Leliana have both done it to me and I always have the rejection talk with them as soon a I realize it). I'll probably have characters in the future with different attitudes but I have DT installed so I'll probably never hear the actual comment.

DT doesn't take away the comments when it comes to Alistair and Morrigan, does it?  I thought it just added a kiss and perhaps comments (though you can get the no-comment version) for Zevran and Leliana.

Zevran does not come across as "mischievious" in the game, though.  ALSO, even if he did (which he doesn't), you get -3 disapproval each time from him if the romance is active.  He looks annoyed as well.

Edit: The VO notes are interesting.  There are quite a few places where the voice does not match the animation, and I love that level of detail.

In case you're wondering, the facial expressions for Zevran's responses are different as well.  When in a romance, he is supposed to be looking at the player and have the default expression.  When not romanced, he's looking straight ahead and is supposed to have the happy/default expression.  This shows that the VO notes, even though they both say mischievious, there are other differences.

Second edit: The difference in facial expressions are even more interesting with Morrigan. Not romanced, the facial expression is happy/thinking.  If romanced, the expression is happy/fake.

EJ you are a gem.  I don't have the toolset installed (hard drive is almost full) so your insights are very helpful.  Zev is such a complex character and the toolset notes you share really help me get into his head for my FF - as well as greater enjoyment from the game.

[ejoslin]

TanithAeyrs wrote...

EJ you are a gem.  I don't have the toolset installed (hard drive is almost full) so your insights are very helpful.  Zev is such a complex character and the toolset notes you share really help me get into his head for my FF - as well as greater enjoyment from the game.

Gah, thank you.  At times I'm not sure me with the toolset is a good thing to have!  

I didn't know you had a FF.  I just started it!  I'm terrible about writing reviews, though :/  I'm one of those awful people who reads the fics and doesn't give feedback -- blah.  I need to get better about that!

[Nilfalasiel]

Does this convo only happen with casual kissing in the field, or can it also happen with casual kissing in camp? Because when I was experimenting with the Alistair romance, I was able to kiss him (after having sex) without any comments from Zev, whose romance was already turned on at that point. If the convo can only happen in the field, then I guess that supports the idea that scenes in camp must be more private, despite how they're presented.

Other than that, well, what's the difference between Zev's two reponses (not annoyed and annoyed)? In one case, his romance isn't on, in the other it is. I don't really see what it could be besides jealousy. Does it make sense that he's jealous that early on? Not if you think that he's falling in love from the very start. He has to couch his interactions with the Warden in banter, because that's the only way he knows how to do these things; he's never had a proper relationship before. Perhaps he's jealous of the fact that Alistair allows himself to be so simple and direct about his feelings? Or that even Morrigan, who's a champion of being in denial, allows herself that very same thing?

Again, I don't think any of this is taking place on a conscious level. It's an instinctive response from someone who's undergone major emotional trauma not long ago. He might've not been jealous at all if something like this had happened before the whole Rinna fiasco. And since it's an instinctive response, of course he's going to sound more annoyed than during his normal jealousy convo, which he's obviously had time to prepare (since he's the one who brings up the topic). The Warden kissing Alistair/Morrigan is sudden, and so he has a sudden response, rather than a carefully crafted one where he's had time to disguise/control his feelings.

I also don't really see how it's creepy. Put aside the fact that he's pretending the relationship is casual: the Warden is giving him ample reason to object. She/he's been flirting with him while already having serious views on another person; and you really don't have the "that's not what I meant!" excuse, because flirting with Zev is ANYthing but subtle. As opposed to some of the interactions with Alistair, where misunderstanding is a plausible possibility (don't know about Morrigan though). It's just because Zev pretends to be casual that it seems surprising. I'm sure it would've felt a lot less odd had it been Alistair/Morrigan getting huffy over the Warden kissing Zev. And I agree with EJ: I'd get annoyed in the same situation, especially if I was actually interested in the person involved.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 06 juin 2010 - 07:31 .

[ejoslin]

@ Nilfalasiel It does only happen when out and about. And yes, those are the two reactions -- in a romance, he's annoyed. Not in a romance, he's teasing. You have some very interesting thoughts about it.

[Ramante]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
...and you really don't have the "that's not what I meant!" excuse, because flirting with Zev is ANYthing but subtle. As opposed to some of the interactions with Alistair, where misunderstanding is a plausible possibility (don't know about Morrigan though).

This is so true!
I don't get how some people go 'OMG, the freaking elf ninja'd me.. seriously the 'romance turn on' lines are so obvious with Zevran, you must be really stupid not to see it. ._.

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: Another thought.  Maybe I'm just more insecure than most people (I seriously doubt that, though), but if I really liked someone, and they seemed to return the feelings and even encouraged them, even if it hadn't developed into a relationship yet, I would probably be jealous if I were out with him and someone else and he started kissing her.

Yes, jealousy can arise without any sort of relationship or reciprocation whatsover. (I'm not even sure it's to do with insecurity). 

Whether or not you felt jealous, though, would you tell off a couple for kissing, meaning it as they shouldn't be making you jealous?  I don't think I would.  I could understand a jokey comment in the spirit of the VO notes, but not an indignant reaction meant as jealousy, whatever I felt.

[Sarah1281]

soignee wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Quick question, how long do you figure Awakening takes?

About half a year.

urgh, I really don't want to do Awakenings in the DDW series, idk what to do. ffffffffffffff-

Make your Poirot-Warden do it!

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: Another thought.  Maybe I'm just more insecure than most people (I seriously doubt that, though), but if I really liked someone, and they seemed to return the feelings and even encouraged them, even if it hadn't developed into a relationship yet, I would probably be jealous if I were out with him and someone else and he started kissing her.

Yes, jealousy can arise without any sort of relationship or reciprocation whatsover. (I'm not even sure it's to do with insecurity). 

Whether or not you felt jealous, though, would you tell off a couple for kissing, meaning it as they shouldn't be making you jealous?  I don't think I would.  I could understand a jokey comment in the spirit of the VO notes, but not an indignant reaction meant as jealousy, whatever I felt.

I can't get past the script note, though, which is why I believe how the voice is supposed to sound is not actually what he is feeling: 

IF: ZEVRAN_ROMANCE_ACTIVE 
SET: APP_ZEVRAN_DEC_LOW 

And this is apart from the actual cinematics, which also are not showing a happy, jokey Zevran.

It does cast an interesting light on the relationship and how casual it really is.  At least for me!  Other people's opinions of course are equally valid.

But here's another few VO notes -- the Dalish story.  

Zevran: I know little enough of the Dalish other than the fact that my mother was one. Or so I was told. (said with a shrug)
Zevran: She had fallen in love with an elven woodcutter and accompanied him back to the city, leaving her clan behind for good. (telling a story he was told, has no emotional significance for him)
Zevran: And there, of course, the woodcutter died of some filthy disease and my mother was forced into prostitution to pay off his debts. Oldest tale in the book. (telling a story he was told, has no emotional significance for him)

It's not until he talks about his mother being his first victim that he is supposed to have any emotion in his voice whatsoever.  But I really don't think he's indifferent to the story -- it's just how the voice is supposed to sound.

[TanithAeyrs]

ejoslin wrote...



But here's another few VO notes -- the Dalish story.  

Zevran: I know little enough of the Dalish other than the fact that my mother was one. Or so I was told. (said with a shrug)
Zevran: She had fallen in love with an elven woodcutter and accompanied him back to the city, leaving her clan behind for good. (telling a story he was told, has no emotional significance for him)
Zevran: And there, of course, the woodcutter died of some filthy disease and my mother was forced into prostitution to pay off his debts. Oldest tale in the book. (telling a story he was told, has no emotional significance for him)

It's not until he talks about his mother being his first victim that he is supposed to have any emotion in his voice whatsoever.  But I really don't think he's indifferent to the story -- it's just how the voice is supposed to sound.

I think Zevran would have had a lot of practice concealing his feelings about his heritage - his lack of emotion in this scene could have evolved from long practice- not true indifference.  After all how is he, as an assassin, supposed to view a people who have devoted themselves to an ideal?

@ejoslin - I hope you survive the first couple of chapters - I revamped them once a while back, but they are still the weakest points in the story.  

[Sannox]

@ Nilfalasiel It's only creepy if it's stalking a claim, or something similar. 

It first happened to me with my first character.  She had been romancing Alistair and was kissing him in camp (which presumably Zevran knew about - the characters all seem to know what's going on).  (If I remember correctly) she had spoken to Zevran a couple of times and did end up with him but at that point nothing had happened.  She will have given a response which turned Zevran's romance on - which is only flirting - no relationship, no agreement, no kissing, no sex, nothing.  At that point, yes, it would be highly creepy for Zevran's character to think he had some sort of claim on her.  

The idea that he could inadvertently be letting slip that he's jealous, because it's not a planned moment - it's possible, but ... He does seem really confident about what he's saying - indignant even.  He is disapproving of what the warden and Alistair are doing.  And also, if that did happen, if he did let something slip - it would be very charged with meaning.  He'd be questioning his feelings.  The warden, if they picked up on it, would be questioning his feelings.   So whatever he feels I don't think he's knowingly expressing jealousy.

In fact, Zevran doesn't express jealousy at any other time.  You can role play that he's jealous, but you don't have to (unlike with Morrigan).   His love is just the same.

@ Ejoslin, yes I agree that he doesn't sound jokey.  He sounds indignant.  But he can't be expressing jealousy, I don't think, for all the reasons I've given (whatever he feels).   So if he's not expressing jealousy, and not just joking, what exactly is he saying?   What is it that he's disapproving of?

I don't think the jealousy (or not) has anything to do with the casualness (or not) though.   He could be jealous without any love or deep feeling - or be deeply in love and not jealous.

Modifié par Sannox, 06 juin 2010 - 08:32 .

[Sannox]

About the Dalish story (and this is not disagreeing with the general point about the VO notes - I agree), I think it's partly the fact that it doesn't have emotional significance that's so sad. It IS just a story he's been told - no worse than the stories the other boys heard, probably. He doesn't even know if the woodcutter was his father. He didn't know either of his parents. He only has his mother's gloves, which he treasures, and he latches on to that. He runs off to join the Dalish at one point, but the connection isn't there for him, for reasons unknown.

I've been going through a bit of a 'feel sorry for Alistair' stage after Sarah's comments about him being forgotten by the companions at the end. I know he and Zevran don't have a lot in common, but I was thinking about how neither of them knew their mothers (Alistair also has a keepsake, for a time), and although Alistair knew who his father was, it was a secret (until it was useful). I wanted to get them together for a group hug, much as they'd both probably have hated it!

[ejoslin]

I think he very much is expressing jealousy, though. I don't think he really recognizes it himself, or he's trying very hard not to acknowledge it. But it certainly seems to be a reaction based on jealousy.

It can't be about public kissing is he doesn't mind if he's not in a romance. If it were about just disapproving of the PDA, he'd disapprove if not romanced as well. He teases them, nice tone, happy face, if not in a romance, and the kiss happens.

And I think he does express jealousy at another time, though he denies it. He won't share the warden if both him and the competition are at 71+ adore. This is not a sexual jealousy, but he is not willing to be in a relationship with the warden if the warden cares about him AND someone else.

Jealous does not mean insecure, though. Getting upset over someone kissing someone else or being involved with someone else is not the same as being possessive for no reason.

Is it an issue with semantics? When I say "jealous," I'm not talking irrational jealousy which is based on wanting to own someone. When I say "jealous" I mean that someone doesn't want to share the affection of someone else, and is upset when it's apparent it's happening.

Edit: About the Dalish story, I'll include a few more notes I guess.  This is NOT a story he is indifferent about.  It is only how his voice is supposed to sound.  He starts to crack later on in the story and the emotion starts to come through.  Which is the point I was trying to make.  You can't just take the VO notes -- there's more to it than those.

Zevran: I didn't know my mother, either, of course. She died giving birth to me. My first victim, as it were. (slightly bitter)
Zevran: We were all raised communally by the ****s. It was a happy enough existence, ignoring the occasional beating, until eventually I was sold to the Crows. I brought a good price, so I hear. (slightly bitter)
Warden: What does this have to do with the Dalish?
Zevran: My original point is that my mother's Dalish nature was always a point of fascination for me. (said with a sigh -- he doesn't like talking about this)
Zevran: Through all the years of my Crow training, the one thing of my mother's that I possessed was a pair of gloves. They were of Dalish make, I knew that much, and beautiful. (he should not sound whiny -- just an indifferent tale from his past, he does not like to show his feelings)

See, this story is not one without emotional significance.  But he hides it well.  It's much like the jealousy talk at adore.  He's supposed to be sounding "eminently reasonable" but at a few points he's supposed to let his feelings slip through.  It's not that he doesn't care, it's just that's what his voice is supposed to sound like at that particular line.

Edit: Oh, and I agree that Alistair gets a crappy ending if he does the US.  Wynne is the only companion who even somewhat acknowledges it, and it would have been better if she hadn't.  Really, he did the US my first play through (I was so clueless) and everyone's reactions made me want to punt kittens.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 juin 2010 - 08:56 .