35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
It can't be about public kissing is he doesn't mind if he's not in a romance. If it were about just disapproving of the PDA, he'd disapprove if not romanced as well. He teases them, nice tone, happy face, if not in a romance, and the kiss happens.

It doesn't make sense to me that Zevran would disapprove of PDA, since Crows are casual about sex.  With his background it's likely he'd even had sex in front of nonparticipants before. 

Edit:  OMG pervy post top of page.  Sparkly het for you: 

Modifié par Creature 1, 06 juin 2010 - 08:57 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Creature 1 wrote...

It doesn't make sense to me that Zevran would disapprove of PDA, since Crows are casual about sex.  With his background it's likely he'd even had sex in front of nonparticipants before. 

Yes, but he only disapproves if he's romanced. Ie. it's not just casual anymore, even if he might not realize it that early on. If not romanced, he probably even approves.

And that's a beautiful pic ^^

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 06 juin 2010 - 09:02 .

[Sarah1281]

It first happened to me with my first character. She had been romancing Alistair and was kissing him in camp (which presumably Zevran knew about - the characters all seem to know what's going on). (If I remember correctly) she had spoken to Zevran a couple of times and did end up with him but at that point nothing had happened. She will have given a response which turned Zevran's romance on - which is only flirting - no relationship, no agreement, no kissing, no sex, nothing. At that point, yes, it would be highly creepy for Zevran's character to think he had some sort of claim on her.

But that's not it at all. It is not creepy or stalkerish if you like someone (even if you've never flirted with them) to be jealous of them kissing another person. Zevran doens't even tell you not to do this but Alistair/Morrigan can just tell that he's not okay with it and thus don't do it. He doesn't even speak up first but has to be asked by Alistair/Morrigan when they talk about their 'audience' before he tries to assure them it's fine but he's really unconvincing.

[Sannox]

He doesn't express jealousy during the 'choice' conversation though, whatever he feels. There's the chance to ask him and he clearly denies it. You can believe him, or not, but either way he doesn't express it.

I agree that it can't be just disapproving of PDAs in general, but the situation has to be the issue, because he doesn't dispprove of it otherwise, no matter how far into the romance it is.

I'm not sure about the semantics. I do agree that people can feel jealous without any relationship there.

I didn't say Zevran was indifferent to the story about his parents. I was trying to say that he's missing a connection to his parents that he obviously craves and tries to satisfy through the gloves and running off to the Dalish. He has no way of caring for his mother directly. He doesn't even have the slightest memory of her - that story that could have been about anybody's mother. He tries to make some meaning out of a story which is meaningless, tries to make it personal when it's impersonal.

Meanwhile Alistair really latches on to the idea of finding his sister, as if that will give him the connection he's missing.

A few times Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go has popped into my mind, particularly when thinking about Zevran and the Crows - these poor kids trying to make connections, even when they're being taught not to. (I know the book has barely anything in common with their situation. I just keep thinking of it).

Modifié par Sannox, 06 juin 2010 - 09:11 .

[Sannox]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It first happened to me with my first character. She had been romancing Alistair and was kissing him in camp (which presumably Zevran knew about - the characters all seem to know what's going on). (If I remember correctly) she had spoken to Zevran a couple of times and did end up with him but at that point nothing had happened. She will have given a response which turned Zevran's romance on - which is only flirting - no relationship, no agreement, no kissing, no sex, nothing. At that point, yes, it would be highly creepy for Zevran's character to think he had some sort of claim on her.

But that's not it at all. It is not creepy or stalkerish if you like someone (even if you've never flirted with them) to be jealous of them kissing another person. Zevran doens't even tell you not to do this but Alistair/Morrigan can just tell that he's not okay with it and thus don't do it. He doesn't even speak up first but has to be asked by Alistair/Morrigan when they talk about their 'audience' before he tries to assure them it's fine but he's really unconvincing.

It's creepy and stalkerish to stake a claim on somebody (which is what I was talking about) if there's nothing going on.   Feeling jealousy is fine.  Expressing it is quite different and inappropriate in that situation.  Staking a claim is creepy.    But I don't think Zevran is expressing jealousy or staking a claim.  It doesn't make sense when you look at his reaction to other things.

His words as written fit with him being jokey, I agree.   But what he's actually saying (with tone of voice) is something different - that's a good point that the others pick up on it.

[frostajulie]

Sannox wrote...

@ Nilfalasiel It's only creepy if it's stalking a claim, or something similar. 

It first happened to me with my first character.  She had been romancing Alistair and was kissing him in camp (which presumably Zevran knew about - the characters all seem to know what's going on).  (If I remember correctly) she had spoken to Zevran a couple of times and did end up with him but at that point nothing had happened.  She will have given a response which turned Zevran's romance on - which is only flirting - no relationship, no agreement, no kissing, no sex, nothing.  At that point, yes, it would be highly creepy for Zevran's character to think he had some sort of claim on her.  
.

I have not played in a while and I just assumed that Zev expressed disapproval after the tent scene.  If he does before the tent scene could he possibly be experiencing a pang of vanity?  He mentions several times that he is renowned for his seduction skills, if he has flirted and  the warden has responded and then he sees that contrary to his opinion of his own prowess he is not the center of his wardens universe... yet, maybe the disapproval hit has more to do with his pride being hurt that the warden is now not consumed with thoughts of only him but instead has another to occupy his or her carnal intentions. He's not jealous at this point but his vanity has just taken a ping.

[ejoslin]

Sannox wrote...

He doesn't express jealousy during the 'choice' conversation though, whatever he feels. There's the chance to ask him and he clearly denies it. You can believe him, or not, but either way he doesn't express it.

I agree that it can't be just disapproving of PDAs in general, but the situation has to be the issue, because he doesn't dispprove of it otherwise, no matter how far into the romance it is.

I'm not sure about the semantics. I do agree that people can feel jealous without any relationship there.

I didn't say Zevran was indifferent to the story about his parents. I was trying to say that he's missing a connection to his parents that he obviously craves and tries to satisfy through the gloves and running off to the Dalish. He has no way of caring for his mother directly. He doesn't even have the slightest memory of her - that story that could have been about anybody's mother. He tries to make some meaning out of a story which is meaningless, tries to make it personal when it's impersonal.

Meanwhile Alistair really latches on to the idea of finding his sister, as if that will give him the connection he's missing.

A few times Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go has popped into my mind, particularly when thinking about Zevran and the Crows - these poor kids trying to make connections, even when they're being taught not to. (I know the book has barely anything in common with their situation. I just keep thinking of it).

If there were no jealousy involved, there'd be no conversation initiated by him.  It would only be by the other person.  He is forcing a choice there, which means he is unwilling to share the warden.  Yes, he denies it's about jealousy if you ask him, but Zevran is not being very honest in that whole conversation.  He also says the relationship is just about fun, though if you question him about it, he starts to crack a little.

The facial expression when saying he's not jealous is happy/fake.  There's just something about the voice and the facial expression there; hell, Sabriana managed to talk me into this one, and I have to agree with her.  That whole line just comes off as false.  And again, he's not being very honest that whole conversation -- he's downplaying what he feels and what the relationship is.  And he expects to be dumped which is good reason to do so.

And Sannox, I am not understanding what you're saying.  Zevran ALWAYS disapproves of PDA if he's romanced.  Whether he's at 5 (blank), 30 (care), 71 (adore), or 91 (love).  Or are you talking about no matter where the relationship with Alistair/Morrigan is?

[frostajulie]

It's creepy and stalkerish to stake a claim on somebody (which is what I was talking about) if there's nothing going on.   Feeling jealousy is fine.  Expressing it is quite different and inappropriate in that situation.  Staking a claim is creepy.    But I don't think Zevran is expressing jealousy or staking a claim.  It doesn't make sense when you look at his reaction to other things.

His words as written fit with him being jokey, I agree.   But what he's actually saying (with tone of voice) is something different - that's a good point that the others pick up on it.

I am curoius what is the difference between expressing jeoalousy and staking a claim because the way I view it there is no difference, you can only feel jealousy when you feel you have some kind of claim on the recipient of the jelousy.  Yet the way I am reading yours and others opinions there is a difference?  Or did I just completely miss the boat?

[Creature 1]

lol Maybe we should distinguish jealousy and envy.



Jealousy: Wanting to keep hold of something you have.

Envy: Wanting to obtain something someone else has.

[Sannox]

I think you can feel jealous without having any sort of claim. Take, for instance, people who feel jealous when a famous object of their desire gets married or gets a partner. The jealousy is real, but there is no claim.

Envy might be about wanting to be like the person the famous person marries (yes, to want what they have, Creature).

Modifié par Sannox, 06 juin 2010 - 09:45 .

[Sannox]

ejoslin wrote...
If there were no jealousy involved, there'd be no conversation initiated by him.  It would only be by the other person.  He is forcing a choice there, which means he is unwilling to share the warden.  Yes, he denies it's about jealousy if you ask him, but Zevran is not being very honest in that whole conversation.  He also says the relationship is just about fun, though if you question him about it, he starts to crack a little.

The facial expression when saying he's not jealous is happy/fake.  There's just something about the voice and the facial expression there; hell, Sabriana managed to talk me into this one, and I have to agree with her.  That whole line just comes off as false.  And again, he's not being very honest that whole conversation -- he's downplaying what he feels and what the relationship is.  And he expects to be dumped which is good reason to do so.

And Sannox, I am not understanding what you're saying.  Zevran ALWAYS disapproves of PDA if he's romanced.  Whether he's at 5 (blank), 30 (care), 71 (adore), or 91 (love).  Or are you talking about no matter where the relationship with Alistair/Morrigan is?

I mean he doesn't approve of any other kisses even when in love.  

He does have another reason than jealousy to initiate the 'choice' conversation, which he gives.    It's quite a good reason too (every bit as reasonable as the other characters suddenly becoming jealous when they or he hit 71).  You can definitely play it that he's lying or not aware of his own feelings, but he still does have a reason - and never gives jealousy as a reason (so it seems odd that he'd be openly showing jealousy before anything has happened). 

He is holding back in that conversation.  But we do find out later that he doesn't understand his own feelings.   Even right near the end of the romance, he doesn't know if he's in love.   You don't have to believe him there either, but if you do, it's unlikely that he was more aware back at the 'choice' conversation (unless the choice conversation comes after that ..  I hadn't thought of that). 

By bringing it up, he knows that he might lose the warden, and I agree that he downplays that.  He doesn't seem to feel he has a right to be 'possessive' (can't think of a better word, but I don't mean it in a negative way) - so it seems odd that he would think he had that right back before anything had happened, if you see what I mean. 

You can play him as jealous - no argument there.  But he won't ever admit to it, I don't think.

[Sarah1281]

Sannox wrote...

I think you can feel jealous without having any sort of claim. Take, for instance, people who feel jealous when a famous object of their desire gets married or gets a partner. The jealousy is real, but there is no claim.

Envy might be about wanting to be like the person the famous person marries (yes, to want what they have, Creature).

Well when does Zevran try to unnecessarily stake a claim? He only makes you choose once you and someone else have both hit adore which takes either massive gift-spamming or more than one flirty conversation and that's just one step shy of love so, disregarding gameplay, you have been working towards a relationship. The kissing thing is Alistair/Morrigan asking if anyone cares before they start making out and Zevran clearly lying (as far as Morrigan/Alistair are concerned) about being okay with it.

[Nilfalasiel]

Sannox wrote...

He does have another reason than jealousy to initiate the 'choice' conversation, which he gives.    It's quite a good reason too (every bit as reasonable as the other characters suddenly becoming jealous when they or he hit 71).  You can definitely play it that he's lying or not aware of his own feelings, but he still does have a reason - and never gives jealousy as a reason (so it seems odd that he'd be openly showing jealousy before anything has happened).

It's possible that the difference comes from the fact that he's had time to prepare the choice convo and carefully decide how he was going to phrase it. The reaction to the kiss is impulsive, ie. it's plausible that it could be more vehement by comparison. 

[Sannox]

He does have the same reaction every time to kiss, though, doesn't he? It's not just a one-off the first time it happens. It so happened in my playthrough that I got that dialogue very early on. But it would be the same later, or on repeated attempts.

[Sannox]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sannox wrote...

I think you can feel jealous without having any sort of claim. Take, for instance, people who feel jealous when a famous object of their desire gets married or gets a partner. The jealousy is real, but there is no claim.

Envy might be about wanting to be like the person the famous person marries (yes, to want what they have, Creature).

Well when does Zevran try to unnecessarily stake a claim? He only makes you choose once you and someone else have both hit adore which takes either massive gift-spamming or more than one flirty conversation and that's just one step shy of love so, disregarding gameplay, you have been working towards a relationship. The kissing thing is Alistair/Morrigan asking if anyone cares before they start making out and Zevran clearly lying (as far as Morrigan/Alistair are concerned) about being okay with it.

It was suggested that he's staking a claim when he objects to the warden kissing Alistair, which can happen after just one flirt (enough to turn on the romance), but nothing more, I believe.   At least, I think it was - it's a while back now!  

Even when the choice conversation comes up, he doesn't try to stake a claim.  That's not the reason he gives.    It doesn't take gift-spamming to get him to adore, though - not at all!   Going to the tent is a huge boost, and after that he makes it clear that he's not staking a claim.

[Sarah1281]

Sannox wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sannox wrote...

I think you can feel jealous without having any sort of claim. Take, for instance, people who feel jealous when a famous object of their desire gets married or gets a partner. The jealousy is real, but there is no claim.

Envy might be about wanting to be like the person the famous person marries (yes, to want what they have, Creature).

Well when does Zevran try to unnecessarily stake a claim? He only makes you choose once you and someone else have both hit adore which takes either massive gift-spamming or more than one flirty conversation and that's just one step shy of love so, disregarding gameplay, you have been working towards a relationship. The kissing thing is Alistair/Morrigan asking if anyone cares before they start making out and Zevran clearly lying (as far as Morrigan/Alistair are concerned) about being okay with it.

It was suggested that he's staking a claim when he objects to the warden kissing Alistair, which can happen after just one flirt (enough to turn on the romance), but nothing more, I believe.   At least, I think it was - it's a while back now!  

Even when the choice conversation comes up, he doesn't try to stake a claim.  That's not the reason he gives.    It doesn't take gift-spamming to get him to adore, though - not at all!   Going to the tent is a huge boost, and after that he makes it clear that he's not staking a claim.

He's not even objecting, though. He tells them to go ahead with it even though his tone/body language can betray (do as far as Alistair/Morrigan are concerned) the fact that he's not okay with it.

Ejoslin wrote...
Alstair: Oh. But what about our audience? You don't think...?
Romanced Zevran: Just treat me as if I'm not here. I don't mind. (mischievious)
Alistair: Err... no. Let's not. (displeased)

Alstair: Oh. But what about our audience? You don't think...?
Not Romanced Zevran: Laughs I've seen it a time or two. I won't gawk, trust me. (mischievious)
Alistair: Well all right then. (amused)

[Sannox]

I don't think he is telling them to go ahead though - it sounds more like a sarcastic 'oh don't mind me' the way he says it. He doesn't sound like he's trying to be nice about it, or even mischievious.  He's quite assertive and sounds annoyed/indignant (as if what they are doing is wrong).

ETA: I watched it again, and he's not quite as indignant as I remember!    I think it maybe seemed stronger because it was so out of the blue.   But he still sounds put out to me, and critical.  I was trying to make it sound as if he was trying to be mishievious?  I don't know - maybe at a push.   

That was after picking him up at the ambush, and having one conversation.

Modifié par Sannox, 06 juin 2010 - 11:04 .

[TanithAeyrs]

I think perhaps, that his annoyance would be understandable if you had just been flirting with him and then tried to kiss another companion right in front of him. In that circumstance he has not had time to compose a glib reply and has been taken off guard. I think the response is more telling of how seriously he treats the flirtation (even if he acts casual about it).

[soignee]

http://pics.livejour...oe/pic/0009gcd6

http://soignee.devia...-Town-166721016



Pretend this has Zevran in it. No other reason but beaccccccccause.

[Sannox]

:wub:Oh, I love it, Soignee! I wondered what you were up to. It's incredible!

Modifié par Sannox, 06 juin 2010 - 11:06 .

[soignee]

Sannox wrote...

:wub:Oh, I love it, Soignee! I wondered what you were up to. It's incredible!

see I'm here going, "hmm, chola Missa, I wonder what Zevran would be in this universe..." and I cannot unsee him as a ******. Like, New Jersey style. BRAIN WRY U DO THIS TO ME

[TanithAeyrs]

soignee wrote...

http://pics.livejour...oe/pic/0009gcd6
http://soignee.devia...-Town-166721016

Pretend this has Zevran in it. No other reason but beaccccccccause.

love it soignee.  Perfect.

[MorGothic]

Ramante wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...
...and you really don't have the "that's not what I meant!" excuse, because flirting with Zev is ANYthing but subtle. As opposed to some of the interactions with Alistair, where misunderstanding is a plausible possibility (don't know about Morrigan though).

This is so true!
I don't get how some people go 'OMG, the freaking elf ninja'd me.. seriously the 'romance turn on' lines are so obvious with Zevran, you must be really stupid not to see it. ._.

But he did...

First he called me handsome and I thanked him, but that doesn't mean I was intrested, because it's true. Then when he asked if we could be more then friend's I said 'Yes' because I wanted to be BEST friends. Then after a hard day of killing Darkspawn he offered me a massage and...and...OH GOD!

As Albert Einstien said:

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

[TanithAeyrs]

ROFL MG. I hope it was a good massage.

[Aroihkin]

Hahaha, Soignee, that's awesome. XD

Re: kissing jealousy talk, there's a biiiig difference between someone doing that in camp than doing it while stomping around in the woods with three other people, two of which you're in a relationship with. May even be part of why Zev and Leliana don't have the option without mods... those two are wiser to these things than Alistair, and seem to care a little more about certain "etiquette" than Morrigan does. It's interesting that Morrigan still backs off when it's her, though. XD Like "Oh, yeah, that is sort of in bad taste, isn't it? Oops."

Edit: The way I look at it, Zevran is just sort of... clearing his throat. Like "hey guys? I'm standing right here, you know." which would be a little (-3) exasperating to have to point out to your love/hump interest.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 06 juin 2010 - 11:53 .