35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Nilfalasiel]

Hmm, I should take a look at my songlist and see if I have anything interesting, when I get the chance. By the way, Viva la Vida and Massive Attack = win.

Sannox wrote...

Yes, I see what you mean. It's an awkward situation in that the warden has taken Zevran into his/her service, and Zevran doesn't really have a choice, because he'll be killed otherwise. I think that's one reason that the dialogue options aren't given - because the story can't progress until Zevran is truly free, after Taliesin.

Yeah, that's true, but he does specify that, if he did have his freedom to come and go, he'd still stay. So it's not like he's being kept against his will either. But things are kind of in limbo until Taliesin is out of the picture, I agree.

I don't think the 'baiting' is equal though. Zevran is the one who tends to nudge and prompt and confess that little bit more, even later. For instance - what he says after the Rinna conversation, saying he'll be with the warden till death, offering the earring, refusing sex, talking about what he feels. The warden doesn't really confess feelings until right at the end, after all that. 

This is also true, but the Warden has one extra circumstance holding her/him back: her/his duty. Wynne makes sure to remind her/him of this, and she/he already knows that she/he has a shortened lifespan and the prospect of a truly horrible death (either the Deep Roads or the archdemon). I'd be hesitant to embark on a relationship for less, especially if the object of my affection viewed it as a new beginning for him, as Zev does. At least, with Alistair, you know you're ultimately doomed to the same kind of fate, which probably makes things somewhat easier.

[Sannox]

soignee wrote...

Sannox wrote...

@ Soignee, the top video is from The Fall - have you seen it? It's a gorgeous film, with a fantastic child actor.

 

yup, it's amazing. It's Antiva in my head too, not going to lie.

Yes, it is!  I can see Zevran fitting into the world of The Fall so easily.

[Sannox]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
This is also true, but the Warden has one extra circumstance holding her/him back: her/his duty. Wynne makes sure to remind her/him of this, and she/he already knows that she/he has a shortened lifespan and the prospect of a truly horrible death (either the Deep Roads or the archdemon). I'd be hesitant to embark on a relationship for less, especially if the object of my affection viewed it as a new beginning for him, as Zev does. At least, with Alistair, you know you're ultimately doomed to the same kind of fate, which probably makes things somewhat easier.

Yes.  I'm ashamed to say I've yet to play a warden who is particularly dutiful so I haven't really come at it from that angle yet.    And when life was so dangerous, a 20/30 year sentence didn't seem quite so ominous, or a reason not to get involved.  But I do agree that there are reasons why the warden might be more reticent with Zevran than the others.  

[Verly]

I always miss the deep discussions lol I was off the puter yesterday.



I'm one of the peeps that thinks Zev is slowly falling for the warden since the beginning, but is trying to hide it/doesn't know what he is feeling. I sometimes rp characters that have always kept things casual also and love sneaks up on them as well. because sexy elf is sexy.



I'm not sure how I'd rp the fact that he doesn't like to watch the PDAs if you are also romancing someone else (especially if you have only expressed interest in him), but I don't usually romance more then one person when I play.



I've never been ninja loved by Zev, Ali, or Mori, but I of course have been ninja loved by Leli

(but lately I've been able to shut hers off with a female warden with no problem)

[ejoslin]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Would Princess' mabari be called Precious, by any chance? With a special pink glittery kaddis and a sequined collar?

IIRC, it's Mrcuddlewuddlebuns.  Or something like that.  Gah, I need to find the link to princess's story through highever.

And agree, both princess pictures are AMAZING!

[ejoslin]

There are always hints in the story that more conversations happen than what you actually get (Leliana actually says it straight out). There are a few times that I can think of where a warden involved with Zevran can say that the relationship is more than just casual to other people. Dwarf Noble can tell Gorim that s/he's in love with Zevran, and during Alistair's jealousy talk (where he denies being jealous) you have two chances there to tell Alistair you're in love with Zevran. Your talk with Wynne, when she's disapproving, you can tell her that Zevran is special.



Then of course, after first time sexytime, you can ask him about love, that makes him very uncomfortable. During his jealousy talk (though he denies being jealous), you can tell him straight out that you don't want him to step aside, that you want him, no question, and not go through the whole, "well, do I HAVE to choose?" If you do that, you'll never see him telling you he's not a cheat. And in a way, that whole thing is sadder, because he still expects to be dumped, and is so relieved when he isn't (well, when choosing between him and Alistair that is). Even immediately after Taliesen, you can tell him you better not leave as you'd be sorely put out or even a bit more calmly that of course you want him to stay. Funny that the line where you refuse to acknowledge that you want him to stay for anything other than the physical is the only one that leads to a kiss.



Part of the problem is, though, there aren't many romance-specific dialogs before Taliesen. There are a lot of romance starters, but what, three specific dialogs? Two if you don't count the sexytime conversations. I'm not including Rinna in that because he does talk about that as well to a non-romanced warden, perhaps, just MUCH later. And one of them is when he dumps the warden.

[Verly]

I forgot to add: The princess pictures are full of awesome! lol

[Sannox]

I suppose something similar goes on with Leliana, in that the romance can't progress until after Marjolaine (if I remember correctly).    With Zevran it's Taliesin, but because that's so late in the game, the lack of romance dialogue up till that point is noticeable.    It would be nice to have some more earlier, but I suppose it wouldn't fit with the story.   If there had been much in the way of relationship talk, and particularly confessions of love or deep feeling from the warden, then Zevran would have questioned his own feelings earlier.    The dialogues that are there, don't allow the warden to say much.

You can say that you want him to stay after Taliesin, but it's much the same as what you've said before - you're glad to have him stay.  That's the strongest of the options there (saying that you'd be put out sounds a bit jokey, and he takes it that way, I think). 

You can say you love him to Alistair, but there's no indication that he knows that's been said, I don't think.  His dialogues are the same and he still seems surprised that his feelings are reciprocated later on.  

Even when the warden finally confesses, it's after Zevran confesses first. 

I don't know if I've been ninjad as my characters would tend to choose flirty options anyway, so it's their own fault.    It's kind of amusing that the characters can sometimes construe a whole relationship out of what is essentially one flirty line, but then often be so laid back about sex with the others!

[Corker]

Sannox wrote...
And when life was so dangerous, a 20/30 year sentence didn't seem quite so ominous, or a reason not to get involved. 

Even when life is not so dangerous, 20-30 years is a long time.  My family medical history indicates I have a fine chance of dropping dead in 15-20 years, but that wasn't going to stop me from loving, getting married and having a life right now.

[soignee]

EJ, you're much more polite then me.

Alsooooo. Ffffffffffffff. Having writer's block. I may go skim read the Calling for Deep Road inspiration. Apparently it's traditional to have OH GOD WE'RE GOING TO DIE RIGHT? Sex with an elf in the middle of the Deep Roads, according to David Gaider anyway. Should I go against tradition? *strokes eyebrow thoughtfully*

[ejoslin]

*grin* The response about how he better not leave I don't take as jokey at all -- it's exactly the type of thing I would say, actually.

You can also say you love him to Gorim, if a dwarf noble, and he will be right there. No, there's no indication that he heard, but again, in both instances, I can't believe those are statements that come out of no where. And Alistair's response to either saying you love him, or that the two of you are in love is, "Ah, I see. I can't say that I'm surprised."

There is a LOT left unsaid throughout the entire game, though. And you don't have to select lines that hint that the relationship is anything more than casual. But it doesn't have to been seen as a warden who's refusing to commit or allowing Zevran to take all the risks.

Another case. Wynne's relationship advice. While, yes, this line most likely is about loud sex, it can also be about two people just talking, joking, being playful, having fun every night. And in fact, it becomes that if the warden and Zevran haven't had sex and is supported by a few other lines in that conversation where the warden may tell Wynne that s/he has fun with Zevran and that they can relax and be themselves with him.

That is probably what I like most about the romance. It's beyond just roleplaying certain responses. The whole romance has so much that is open to interpretation. And more with his romance than any others, you can actually change the tone of the relationship through your responses. The dialogs support casual, they support reticence, but they also support a fairly committed relationship that is acknowledged on both sides.

I think it's because so much is open to interpretation which is why the romance is so great. And it's why people can see it so differently.

Edit: Yeh, sometimes I'm too polite for my own good.  Last speeding ticket I got, I thanked the police officer when he handed it to me.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 juin 2010 - 04:41 .

[Minaleth]

*rofls at latest alicorn reaction in the other thread* Huhuu, please come and make fun of us/Zevran! If you are half as funny and half good at drawing as aimo it might be worth it ... or to hell with alithread, let's do it ourselves! *is drawing and giggling*

[Sannox]

Yes, I do like that there are different ways to see it.   It gives plenty to talk about, at least!  But also helps with the replay value. 

If you play it as Zevran knowing that you love him (from the conversation with Alistair or Gorim) how do you make that fit with how the dialogues go later?    At the end, he seems to be talking as if he doesn't know the warden loves him.   I suppose he could be pretending not to know, just to get a confession out of the warden?  It doesn't feel right to me. 

Actually, that's interesting - regardless of whether Zevran had heard or not, if a warden can say to Alistair that she loves Zevran, why not say it to Zevran?   Maybe not right away, but later on?  There's no option to do it until the gates (and even that was missing until, you fixed it, EJ).    It's just not written into the game, and a warden who knows she's in love and has admitted it to Alistair, maybe ages ago, still ends up with no option to say it even after asking Zevran if he's in love.  It does give the option of a more knowing warden who is deliberately holding back, for whatever reason. 

I do know that some people add in extra dialogue when they're playing, but with the dialogue given, Zevran is that little bit more forthcoming than the warden.   It's not a huge, gigantic difference, because he hardly gushes about his feelings either, but he does tend to the one to make the first move, and often the one who says the most.  

I could probably see myself seeing the line about being put out, too, with a smile!   I do think it's a nice thing to say.  Between the two choices, I think it sounds more affectionate and playful (essentially, it's 'I'd be annoyed if you left' - he knows you're not really annoyed, and responds in kind), whereas the other sounds more sincere/serious.  You get a stronger response (I think) if you say you're glad to have him along.  But yes, it's hard to tell until you get his response.  I've often gone wrong when I've chosen a dialogue option and then found from the character's response that it meant something different than I thought it did!  

[ejoslin]

The thing is, with the one conversation where Zevran is surprised, I never see that dialog. Even before I modded it, I took the friendship line because it's so powerful. As far as when he confesses? I see that as him explaining himself and his feelings, how it is all new to him and how he had to sort it out. I actually don't see him as unsure of the warden's feelings, really. I don't see feelings as being a major thing discussed, however, in the entire relationship. I just throw those out there to show that there can be an acknowledgement that the relationship is more than FWB.

There is this little bit, which is interesting when he's refusing to go to the tent if you haven't had sex.

Zevran: No, I... no. I mean no offense, I simply... no.
Warden: I'm sorry. Maybe that was clumsy of me.
Zevran: Trust me, under normal circumstances I would not hesitate. It's just... I do not wish to talk about it. (awkward, uncomfortable -- he is out of his depth)
Warden: You don't feel the same way, then?
Zevran: I do not wish to talk about it. (uncomfortable)
Warden: You don't feel the same way, then?
Zevran: Enough! I do not want to talk about "feelings" or anything remotely similar! (disgusted, he has no idea how to discuss such things)

There is another point, after he falls in love admittedly, where he describes the relationship in terms of unspoken promises. You get this if you break up with him after he falls in love.

Warden: And what about your oath to serve me?
Zevran: What are promises? There are many kinds, spoken and unspoken, and yet we break them all the same, yes? They do not matter. (sad)

See, IRL, I don't talk about feelings much, nor does my husband. Love to me is a verb, not a discussion topic, if that makes sense. I can completely see a relationship with things going unsaid, but still understood.

Edit: Formatting

Hmmm, at the gates, yes, bugged was bad that you got the friendship lines if you took him with you.  If you left him, you could tell him, but he was very upset there so not a great response.

There actually are very few places for a warden to tell their LI that they love them.  Alistair I think has the most opportunities.  I'm not sure you actually ever can tell Leliana.  I'll check that.  Ok, there are two places you can tell her you love her, and one of them is if she's not hardened and the male warden is marrying Anora.  

Can a male warden tell Morrigan?  I'm not sure.  I think with Morrigan and Zevran, the closest you get to an I love you is when they call the warden, "My love."

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 juin 2010 - 05:29 .

[soignee]

Minaleth wrote...

*rofls at latest alicorn reaction in the other thread* Huhuu, please come and make fun of us/Zevran! If you are half as funny and half good at drawing as aimo it might be worth it ... or to hell with alithread, let's do it ourselves! *is drawing and giggling*

WE'RE ALL SODOMITES I mean, uh...

[ejoslin]

soignee wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

*rofls at latest alicorn reaction in the other thread* Huhuu, please come and make fun of us/Zevran! If you are half as funny and half good at drawing as aimo it might be worth it ... or to hell with alithread, let's do it ourselves! *is drawing and giggling*

WE'RE ALL SODOMITES I mean, uh...

You say that like it's a bad thing...

[soignee]

ejoslin wrote...

soignee wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

*rofls at latest alicorn reaction in the other thread* Huhuu, please come and make fun of us/Zevran! If you are half as funny and half good at drawing as aimo it might be worth it ... or to hell with alithread, let's do it ourselves! *is drawing and giggling*

WE'RE ALL SODOMITES I mean, uh...

You say that like it's a bad thing...

giggity. Beyonce is making notes to check, obviously. Is this a bad thing? *consults book*

Modifié par soignee, 07 juin 2010 - 05:40 .

[Sarah1281]

Minaleth wrote...

Behindyounow wrote...

So its like a parody of people who make their Couslands into perfect princesses?

And maybe also a bit of those who ship the only true princess Cousland/Alistair pairing... <3

Although a Coulsand is really the only one I'm comfortable putting Alistair with due to the fact I hate how the romance ends for non-Couslands and being a mistress or not putting him on the throne is out of the question.

[Aroihkin]

We don't take ourselves seriously enough to mock, IMO. Sort of like Zevran himself, really. Or trolling /b/.

[Sannox]

@ EJ, I meant the conversation after he refuses the tent in particular, rather than that one (I'm not too fond of that one - or not the unmodded one, anyway).   He doesn't talk as if he knows the warden loves him, I don't think. 

I agree on the things that are unsaid - I do think there's an element of that.   Zevran's just that little bit better at saying the things.   However, what I really noticed when I looked at it was that if you were playing a warden who wasn't in love, but like having him around, the conversations would go much the same.   

I can't remember the other romances in detail, but I get the feeling that with Alistair it seemed more obviously a romance from what the warden could say.   With Zevran there can still be depth of feeling (actually just wanting him around does show feeling for him, and there's the little things, like finding the boots and gloves for him), but the lines between love/friendship/comradeship are a bit blurred.  

Morrigan, I can't remember - I know it was possible to play it without much feeling on the warden's part but a lot on hers, but I can't remember how much the warden could say.   I have a feeling that it's not much, which would make that romance a bit similar to Zevran's.  (Although I think Morrigan is a little bit more forthcoming than Zevran). 

I did have something else I wanted to discuss today, but this has been so fascinating!

[soignee]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

Behindyounow wrote...

So its like a parody of people who make their Couslands into perfect princesses?

And maybe also a bit of those who ship the only true princess Cousland/Alistair pairing... <3

Although a Coulsand is really the only one I'm comfortable putting Alistair with due to the fact I hate how the romance ends for non-Couslands and being a mistress or not putting him on the throne is out of the question.

can open, worms everywhere...

[Aroihkin]

Psst, Sannox. I'm totally off-topic, but I thought you'd enjoy this too~




Also, while figuring out how tall he is compared to Tannusen, I discovered that the answer is basically "Wow, tall."



Zevran had to help since I don't have any male elf PCs past Ostagar yet. XD

Modifié par Aroihkin, 07 juin 2010 - 06:26 .

[Sarah1281]

soignee wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Minaleth wrote...

Behindyounow wrote...

So its like a parody of people who make their Couslands into perfect princesses?

And maybe also a bit of those who ship the only true princess Cousland/Alistair pairing... <3

Although a Coulsand is really the only one I'm comfortable putting Alistair with due to the fact I hate how the romance ends for non-Couslands and being a mistress or not putting him on the throne is out of the question.

can open, worms everywhere...

No, that would be if that were in the Alistair thread and people would freak out because currently elves seem to be the most popular race to pair with Alistiar.

[ejoslin]

The conversation after the tent... After he's in love? Disaster. Inappropriate in an unmodded game. Before DT changed it, people would come on here and **** about it, and rightly so. It's the exact same as before he falls in love. The problem with it is, obviously, that there already is a commitment made and he's expressed his feelings, and everything is all clear and they're set to have a future together if they both survive. Then he asks, after the tent, "Where do we go from here?"

I use Dialog Tweaks so I don't see that either.

I quoted part of the conversation when he's refusing the tent though; the non-sex version. I think Zevran makes it very clear that he doesn't want to talk about his feelings at that point, and it's fine. But the warden does ask him if he feels the same way (though whether it's about sex or about more is up to the player I suppose) and it touches a real nerve.

I will be the first to say that the romance with Zevran actually goes a bit better if there is no sex involved. The dialogs are nicer.

One thing, though. When Zevran does confess his feelings, if you tell you don't return the feelings, he says this (if you tell him you return the feelings but can't be with him anyway, you get an additional dialog).

Zevran: Yet I cannot help it. Since you asked me into your tent, I have been nothing but confused. Do you understand me at all?
Warden: I don't feel the same way, I'm sorry.
Zevran: Ah. Yes, that... that does make it easier, in fact. (crestfallen -- but trying to make it sound like he doesn't care)
Zevran: I knew I was being foolish and now I am proven correct. This is really for the best, I think. (crestfallen -- but trying to make it sound like he doesn't care)

It's at that point that he learns the warden doesn't share his feelings. He seemed to think the warden loved him before that.

The romances with Alistair and with Zevran are very very different. They start at different places, and end in different places as well. You're not going to get the hearts and flowers you get with Alistair -- I would expect the Alistair romance to have a lot more pretty words on both sides.

The feeling I get with Zevran's romance is companionship. There are a few awkward attempts at courtship, but for the most part, you have a man who has known nothing of real love (I know you disagree on this point, but it is the way I see it) and kindness, where everything has a price. He ends up with someone who not only accepts him, but appreciates him, cares for him, listens to him, values him. He takes nothing for granted at all. Even where he sleeps at night, he doesn't assume it's with the warden (unlike Alistair and Leliana where the romance line is -- Let's go to sleep).

He's lived his entire life knowing that happiness is fleeting and you take whatever moments you can. That he looks into the future at all is surprising. He expects nothing and therefore is never disappointed. He doesn't want to fall in love -- that he feels at all he sees as a weakness.

Anyway, when you take someone like that, if you try to push things or even talk about things, the reaction won't be positive. It will be much like it is when you ask him about love after the tent. But if you just accept it for what it is, and enjoy it for what it is, it still grows into something more.

Ending my wall of text here!

Edit: Formatting.

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 juin 2010 - 06:36 .

[Sannox]

Aroihkin wrote...

Psst, Sannox. I'm totally off-topic, but I thought you'd enjoy this too~

You were right! 

I do have a bit of a thing for those very grown-up characters.  I think part of the reason I prefer Zevran to Alistair is just because he seems more mature.  But Greagoir in particular - there's something interesting going on there .