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[SurrealSadi]

sami jo wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sami jo wrote...

I'm playing KOTOR 1 and 2 between stabbing clothes on felt companions and following the insane muse.  It's all your fault, CZ! (and I love you for it.  I forgot how much I loved KOTOR)

Random conversational right turn here: does anyone else see personality similarities between Tamlen and Zevran? 

No.

I realize you hate Tamlen and the Dalish, but it actually was a serious question for those who have explored all the conversation options with Tamlen. 

Hmm. Not really. Tamlen's got a little boy's curiosity, he's not quite as mature personality wise as Zev...

Tamlen is a lot younger, and far less damaged.  I'm not sure if it's just my overly sleepy brain drawing parallels (which is why I asked the question), but while Tamlen is curious, adventurous (a bit mischievous) and yes, very young, he is also surprisingly insightful (recognizing the writing).  Perhaps that is just a poorly implemented plot device.  I just keep wondering if Tamlen is what a young Zevran would have been like had he been raised among the Dalish.  I'm not sure I'm making much sense.

No, you make plenty of sense. I see what you're trying to figure out. I don't know if Zev would have been like Tamlen at that age if he was raised by the Dalish. He'd already had a peculiar upbringing already in the wh*rehouse, and with the Crows(Remember, he'd already been bought by the Crows when he ran away to the Dalish).

Edit:

Modifié par SurrealSadi, 12 juin 2010 - 10:47 .

[Tellervo]

Jestina wrote...

Zeveran is kind of a mirror of Legolas...except with an almost opposite personality.

I love you, troll.  You've just made my evening about a million times more hilarious.

Here, in honor of our trollbot's change in tactics, have some lolarious crossover I just found:

http://community.liv...enge/17875.html

And a kmeme crossover prompt no one ever filled (though I hope the person asking to fill it in the ME-verse means Mass Effect and not Middle Earth, because crack is whack): 
http://dragonage-kin...=237640#t237640

Modifié par Tellervo, 12 juin 2010 - 10:52 .

[sami jo]

Sarah1281 wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sami jo wrote...

I'm playing KOTOR 1 and 2 between stabbing clothes on felt companions and following the insane muse.  It's all your fault, CZ! (and I love you for it.  I forgot how much I loved KOTOR)

Random conversational right turn here: does anyone else see personality similarities between Tamlen and Zevran? 

No.

I realize you hate Tamlen and the Dalish, but it actually was a serious question for those who have explored all the conversation options with Tamlen. 

I HAVE explored them all and looked at it on the toolset. I think they have nothing in common. Tamlen is too impetuous and rash. He hates humans and wants to kill the ones you meet just for being in the wrong place even though the Keeper tells you it's a bad idea. Zevran doesn't express any such sentiments. He's not particularly reckless unless you count his attempted suicide attempt although he claimed he was cocky and I saw that in Tamlen. I just really don't see the resemblance at all and you haven't explained why you think that they are.

And just because I don't like Tamlen, think the Dalish origin is boring, and do not feel the Dalish were innocent victims in the fall of their homeland does not mean I hate the Dalish in general. Please don't make assumptions.

Dalish ORIGIN.  I'm sorry. I'm not trying to start a fight, I just wanted a response from those without a knee jerk nasty response to Tamlen and the Origin.  Tamlen is younger, much younger, and much less experienced in the world.  Zevran does not describe himself as being particularly cautious until he is reconsidering things after Rinna.  In fact, as you mention above, he describes himself as having been cocky.  They have very different backgrounds that have shaped them in very different ways.  I'm talking about more fundamental personality traits--Tamlen is curious, but there is no reason to think he expected that exploring the cave would be reckless.  The keeper herself says that she would have been likely to react in the same way.  He is not opposed to killing off the shemlen for purely practical reasons.  Zev has no great love for humans either, but he has had to live amongst them.  He has also experience life outside of the Dalish, and so can see their faults.  Tamlen is Dalish, has never experienced human society, let alone been able to see the good side of humanity.  Whatever role you think the Dalish played in their own downfall, you cannot deny that in the time that the game takes place, humans treat elves horribly and it is hardly odd that any elf would dislike them.

[sami jo]

SurrealSadi wrote...

sami jo wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sami jo wrote...

I'm playing KOTOR 1 and 2 between stabbing clothes on felt companions and following the insane muse.  It's all your fault, CZ! (and I love you for it.  I forgot how much I loved KOTOR)

Random conversational right turn here: does anyone else see personality similarities between Tamlen and Zevran? 

No.

I realize you hate Tamlen and the Dalish, but it actually was a serious question for those who have explored all the conversation options with Tamlen. 

Hmm. Not really. Tamlen's got a little boy's curiosity, he's not quite as mature personality wise as Zev...

Tamlen is a lot younger, and far less damaged.  I'm not sure if it's just my overly sleepy brain drawing parallels (which is why I asked the question), but while Tamlen is curious, adventurous (a bit mischievous) and yes, very young, he is also surprisingly insightful (recognizing the writing).  Perhaps that is just a poorly implemented plot device.  I just keep wondering if Tamlen is what a young Zevran would have been like had he been raised among the Dalish.  I'm not sure I'm making much sense.

No, you make plenty of sense. I see what you're trying to figure out. I don't know if Zev would have been like Tamlen at that age if he was raised by the Dalish. He'd already had a peculiar upbringing already in the wh*rehouse, and with the Crows(Remember, he'd already been bought by the Crows when he ran away to the Dalish).

Clarity is clearly not my forte tonight.  What I meant was if Zevran had been born to his mother among the Dalish and raised as Tamlen and the Dalish Wardens are.  Any part of Zevran's childhood is bound to have a serious impact. 

[Cuddlezarro]

ugh I completely forgot how much talking to bao-dur makes me want to go take a nap in KoTOR2 seriously his voice is just... *yawns*

[sami jo]

While I'm sleepily spamming the thread...

@Tell: you sooooo bad. That is hilarious.

[SurrealSadi]

sami jo wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

sami jo wrote...

SurrealSadi wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sami jo wrote...

I'm playing KOTOR 1 and 2 between stabbing clothes on felt companions and following the insane muse.  It's all your fault, CZ! (and I love you for it.  I forgot how much I loved KOTOR)

Random conversational right turn here: does anyone else see personality similarities between Tamlen and Zevran? 

No.

I realize you hate Tamlen and the Dalish, but it actually was a serious question for those who have explored all the conversation options with Tamlen. 

Hmm. Not really. Tamlen's got a little boy's curiosity, he's not quite as mature personality wise as Zev...

Tamlen is a lot younger, and far less damaged.  I'm not sure if it's just my overly sleepy brain drawing parallels (which is why I asked the question), but while Tamlen is curious, adventurous (a bit mischievous) and yes, very young, he is also surprisingly insightful (recognizing the writing).  Perhaps that is just a poorly implemented plot device.  I just keep wondering if Tamlen is what a young Zevran would have been like had he been raised among the Dalish.  I'm not sure I'm making much sense.

No, you make plenty of sense. I see what you're trying to figure out. I don't know if Zev would have been like Tamlen at that age if he was raised by the Dalish. He'd already had a peculiar upbringing already in the wh*rehouse, and with the Crows(Remember, he'd already been bought by the Crows when he ran away to the Dalish).

Clarity is clearly not my forte tonight.  What I meant was if Zevran had been born to his mother among the Dalish and raised as Tamlen and the Dalish Wardens are.  Any part of Zevran's childhood is bound to have a serious impact. 

Ohoh.. Okay. Hum.. He might be more like Tamlen then...

[Sarah1281]

sami jo wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

sami jo wrote...

I'm playing KOTOR 1 and 2 between stabbing clothes on felt companions and following the insane muse.  It's all your fault, CZ! (and I love you for it.  I forgot how much I loved KOTOR)

Random conversational right turn here: does anyone else see personality similarities between Tamlen and Zevran? 

No.

I realize you hate Tamlen and the Dalish, but it actually was a serious question for those who have explored all the conversation options with Tamlen. 

I HAVE explored them all and looked at it on the toolset. I think they have nothing in common. Tamlen is too impetuous and rash. He hates humans and wants to kill the ones you meet just for being in the wrong place even though the Keeper tells you it's a bad idea. Zevran doesn't express any such sentiments. He's not particularly reckless unless you count his attempted suicide attempt although he claimed he was cocky and I saw that in Tamlen. I just really don't see the resemblance at all and you haven't explained why you think that they are.

And just because I don't like Tamlen, think the Dalish origin is boring, and do not feel the Dalish were innocent victims in the fall of their homeland does not mean I hate the Dalish in general. Please don't make assumptions.

Dalish ORIGIN.  I'm sorry. I'm not trying to start a fight, I just wanted a response from those without a knee jerk nasty response to Tamlen and the Origin.  Tamlen is younger, much younger, and much less experienced in the world.  Zevran does not describe himself as being particularly cautious until he is reconsidering things after Rinna.  In fact, as you mention above, he describes himself as having been cocky.  They have very different backgrounds that have shaped them in very different ways.  I'm talking about more fundamental personality traits--Tamlen is curious, but there is no reason to think he expected that exploring the cave would be reckless.  The keeper herself says that she would have been likely to react in the same way.  He is not opposed to killing off the shemlen for purely practical reasons.  Zev has no great love for humans either, but he has had to live amongst them.  He has also experience life outside of the Dalish, and so can see their faults.  Tamlen is Dalish, has never experienced human society, let alone been able to see the good side of humanity.  Whatever role you think the Dalish played in their own downfall, you cannot deny that in the time that the game takes place, humans treat elves horribly and it is hardly odd that any elf would dislike them.

So now I can't dislike Tamlen without having a 'kneejerk nasty response'? Way to trivialize my opinion.

I dislike the lack of emotional connection this origin has compared to some of the others and you have to basically build your backstory yourself. Tamlen refuses to listen to reason and proves himself ultimately too dumb to live. There's nothing kneejerk about it and I CAN have a valid opinion about Tamlen despite my dislike of him.

The fall of the Dales has nothing to do with this and I just mentioned it as that argument is one reason I feel you seem to think I hate the Dalish and I have never tried to say that the elves deserve their treatment today.

The Keeper said that she would have been tempted to do the same thing but that doesn't mean it isn't reckless. In fact...
Tamlen: This must be the cave. I don't recall seeing this before, do you? (VO: A bit surprised that there actaully is a cave. He didn't believe the human's story about it.)
PC: No, and that worries me. We should be wary.
Tamlen: Always the cautious one. Fine but I'm not running back until I know there's something worth making a fuss over. (VO: Dismissing caution -- he's too excited to turn back now.) Come one; let's at least see what's there. How dangerous could it be? (VO: Excited, famous last words).

PC: Why did you want to come down here so badly?
Tamlen: Aren't you curious? We could be discovering out history. Minstrels will write songs about us. (VO: Excited and burning with curiousity, he's trying to urge his companion to feel the same way).
PC: You aren't fooling me, Tamlen.
PC: If I were to bring come valuable ancestral artifact back to the Keeper, she might forgive me for...well, you know. (VO: A bit coy -- he and the player have gotten in trouble together a lot)
PC: You get into far too much trouble, Tamlen.
Tamlen: And you get into far too little...which is probably why the Keeper sent you with me. (VO: Playfully chiding his companion who is almost like a brother to him). At any rate, I wasn't expecting this place to...feel quite like this. Maybe this wasn't the best idea... (VO: Said with a sense of foreboding)

Tamlen: It's beautiful, isn't it? I wonder what the writing says. (VO: whispered half under his breath in wonder, he is excited and awed) 
PC: "Do not touch the galss"?
Tamlen: *scoffs* Not that we'd leave a fingerprint on it...see how clean it is? Not a single smudge or crack. (VO: he waves off an urge for caution, too caught up in his awe and amazement)

He can tell at several points it's a bad idea, he dismisses caution, he won't listen if you're playing the voice of reason...how is that not reckless?

[Tellervo]

sami jo wrote...

While I'm sleepily spamming the thread...
@Tell: you sooooo bad. That is hilarious.

Just don't stab yourself.

[sami jo]

Tellervo wrote...

sami jo wrote...

While I'm sleepily spamming the thread...
@Tell: you sooooo bad. That is hilarious.

Just don't stab yourself.

Too late.

[Tellervo]

sami jo wrote...

Tellervo wrote...

sami jo wrote...

While I'm sleepily spamming the thread...
@Tell: you sooooo bad. That is hilarious.

Just don't stab yourself.

Too late.

Nooo!  Sami!  Here, let me kiss it better.

Modifié par Tellervo, 12 juin 2010 - 11:20 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Tamlen = The Dalish Cailan.



'Nuff said.

[sami jo]

Sarah, you dislike Tamlen and the Dalish origin and have made that abundantly clear many times. That was all I meant. Your opinion is not being discounted, but your initial reaction consisted of the word "no" and a vomiting emoticon. You see no redeeming features in Tamlen. I have the same reaction to the dwarven origins that you do to the Dalish. We just like different things and that's fine. I just wanted to hear from those who see a bit more to him than reckless idiot.

[sami jo]

Tellervo wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Tellervo wrote...

sami jo wrote...

While I'm sleepily spamming the thread...
@Tell: you sooooo bad. That is hilarious.

Just don't stab yourself.

Too late.

Nooo!  Sami!  Here, let me kiss it better.

It was Morrigan's fault.  Attaching her "assets" was a little tricky.

[Nonvita]

Actually, I kind of see what you're saying, Sami, although I think there's such limited time with Tamlen that it's hard to tell. I think a younger Zevran could have been similarly rash, and Tamlen acting out against humans seems similar to Zevran acting on the Crows' behalf--personally I've always felt that the Dalish tend to instill a hatred of humans in their young, which was part of the basis for my Dalish's personality. I do think Zevran is more intelligent than Tamlen, although Tamlen does show *some* perceptiveness outside his plot-sensitive stupid moments. But we have to keep in mind that the Zevran we see in the game is very different that the Zevran of several years (or even up to a few days) before we meet him.


On a side note, I <3<3<3 this troll. I haven't had so many cookies in a very long time.

[sami jo]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tamlen = The Dalish Cailan.

'Nuff said.

Nice guy who needed far more experience?

Actually, my opinion of Cailin's possible leadership skills increased after RtO.  He was overconfident and out-maneuvered, but with more experience he might have made a good king. 

[sami jo]

Nonvita wrote...

Actually, I kind of see what you're saying, Sami, although I think there's such limited time with Tamlen that it's hard to tell. I think a younger Zevran could have been similarly rash, and Tamlen acting out against humans seems similar to Zevran acting on the Crows' behalf--personally I've always felt that the Dalish tend to instill a hatred of humans in their young, which was part of the basis for my Dalish's personality. I do think Zevran is more intelligent than Tamlen, although Tamlen does show *some* perceptiveness outside his plot-sensitive stupid moments. But we have to keep in mind that the Zevran we see in the game is very different that the Zevran of several years (or even up to a few days) before we meet him.


On a side note, I <3<3<3 this troll. I haven't had so many cookies in a very long time.

That's why I am asking for the feedback.  Tamlen gets so little time (which does drive me a bit batty with that origin), that it is really easy to read whatever you want into him.

And yes, troll cookies are excellent. 

[Costin_Razvan]

sami jo wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tamlen = The Dalish Cailan.

'Nuff said.

Nice guy who needed far more experience?

Actually, my opinion of Cailin's possible leadership skills increased after RtO.  He was overconfident and out-maneuvered, but with more experience he might have made a good king. 

Nice guy who didn't understand the cost of war. I am sorry, but Cailan only cared for Glory not about the lives of his men ( given the fact he is willing to sacrifice them all that Ostagar for no real gain ), and that tells me miles about him.

If you feel someone who doesn't care about the welfare of the soldiers under him is worthy of respect, then by all means give him a proper burial.

Tamlen dragged his friend into a ruined cave just to satisfy his curiosity and that almost killed the DE.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 juin 2010 - 11:53 .

[Sarah1281]

sami jo wrote...

Sarah, you dislike Tamlen and the Dalish origin and have made that abundantly clear many times. That was all I meant. Your opinion is not being discounted, but your initial reaction consisted of the word "no" and a vomiting emoticon. You see no redeeming features in Tamlen. I have the same reaction to the dwarven origins that you do to the Dalish. We just like different things and that's fine. I just wanted to hear from those who see a bit more to him than reckless idiot.

I don't go around talking about how much I hate the Dalish origin and, for that matter, I don't hate it. I just do not find it even remotely compelling. That said, I've played through an entire game with a Dalish so therefore I do, in fact, have some basis for that and you can't say I didn't give it a fair chance.

Your initial question was 'Random conversational right turn here: does anyone else see personality similarities between Tamlen and Zevran?' not 'Random conversational right turn here: does anyone else who loves Tamlen and s the Dalish as much as I do see personality similarities between Tamlen and Zevran'? And why should whether or not I like the character have anything to do with whether I can have a valid view on the subject. I first looked at the question, saw nothing really similar about them (and if you're going to give them identical upbringings in your hypothetical of course you will find more similarities), and said so. Then, because the idea of comparing them isn't one I like I added an emoticon.

We can have a few conversation with Tamlen. The first he wants to kill the humans before even finding out why they were there or if there were more of them which isn't practical and the Keeper yells at you for having killed them. In fact, one of the options you can choose is 'no one will ever find out, let's kill them' showing that you know that the clan would disapprove. The next conversation you find out he's in trouble for being reckless and fighting which is why he wants to be here so much and that this is nothing new. He either outright dismisses your caution or is too overcome with excitement to really hear you and is all 'what's the worst that can happen?' which is both foolish and reckless. Then he seems something moving in a mirror and just has to touch it.

Yes, it is a very stupid, very reckless thing he does and that's pretty much all we see of him until shiek-him apologizes, possibly confesses his love, and attacks you. If all we see of him is foolish, reckless behavior then how is it unreasonable that that is how I see the character? 

[Nonvita]

But the thing is, yes, Tamlen is reckless, but I wouldn't say that Zevran is not as well. We get stories from him about him nearly being killed because of his own reckless nature--the story with the mage, the one of him falling out of a window into the river, etc. He himself admits that he was once even more cocky and brash than he is now. So I don't think that Tamlen is like the Zevran we see in-game, but I do think there are similarities between Tamlen and pre-game Zevran. Are they the same character? No. Do I like Tamlen as much as Zevran? No. But I'll admit that even before Sami brought it up I was already comparing my Dalish and Tamlen to Zevran and Rinna (especially as my DEF ended up looking similar to how I imagine Rinna). The parallel between the two couples sort of makes the story more compelling for me at least, though I definitely agree that it's a weak origin in requiring multiple playthroughs before you can really form your "backstory".

[Creature 1]

sami jo wrote...

I just wanted to hear from those who see a bit more to him than reckless idiot.

That's why I haven't answered this question.  

[sami jo]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tamlen = The Dalish Cailan.

'Nuff said.

Nice guy who needed far more experience?

Actually, my opinion of Cailin's possible leadership skills increased after RtO.  He was overconfident and out-maneuvered, but with more experience he might have made a good king. 

Nice guy who didn't understand the cost of war. I am sorry, but Cailan only cared for Glory not about the lives of his men ( given the fact he is willing to sacrifice them all that Ostagar for no real gain ), and that tells me miles about him.

If you feel someone who doesn't care about the welfare of the soldiers under him is worthy of respect, then by all means give him a proper burial.

Tamlen dragged his friend into a ruined cave just to satisfy his curiosity and that almost killed the DE.

I don't entirely disagree with your assessment of Cailin.  His view of warfare had been shaped by glorious tales, not brutal reality.  That said, it is pretty clear that Loghain was undermining him before Ostagar and Cailin knew it.  That gives him a good reason to not go along with everything Loghain tells him (though it is Loghain's plan in action at Ostagar, not Cailin's).  The troops he had won every skirmish they'd had with the darkspawn.  He was overconfident that the next battle would be just as simple.  If Duncan had been more forceful in convincing the king that it was a true blight (or simply been more honest about the nature of the Grey Wardens), perhaps he would have been more willing to listen. 

Tamlen had no way of knowing the true danger of that cave.  Nothing in his experience would have suggested that it could be that dangerous.  Even the keeper doesn't believe it could be darkspawn at first.  He's young.  He behaves in the same way that most young men do--as if they are invulnerable.  Caution comes with experience, and he clearly has not had anything truly awful happen to him.  Perhaps that even qualifies as reckless, but I don't think it qualifies as a global personality trait for him.  He is, like many young men, very impulsive.  He suffered from terminal curiosity.  I've certainly known my teenage son to be similarly impulsive, but it is a function of lack of maturity not genuine lack of care for the safety of himself and others.

[Costin_Razvan]

Well Duncan was getting what he wanted out of that fight, though he probably didn't like sacrificing all those soldiers at least he, unlike Cailan, had a greater goal in mind rather Glory.



It is my belief that Duncan thought that a defeat at Ostagar would open the eyes of the nobility of Fereldan and thus allow the Chevaliers into Fereldan. It was not his job to care if Fereldan got conquered by Orlais afterwards, it was his job to end the Blight, and I think for his part he did it well.



While Loghain might have been undermining Cailan, it is important to remember one thing about war: Even in victories you have casualties: Wounded, Dead, Missing. Cailan simply ignored all this.



I might think he was simply putting up a brave face for his men....but I think there is a limit to that.

[sami jo]

Sarah1281 wrote...

sami jo wrote...

Sarah, you dislike Tamlen and the Dalish origin and have made that abundantly clear many times. That was all I meant. Your opinion is not being discounted, but your initial reaction consisted of the word "no" and a vomiting emoticon. You see no redeeming features in Tamlen. I have the same reaction to the dwarven origins that you do to the Dalish. We just like different things and that's fine. I just wanted to hear from those who see a bit more to him than reckless idiot.

I don't go around talking about how much I hate the Dalish origin and, for that matter, I don't hate it. I just do not find it even remotely compelling. That said, I've played through an entire game with a Dalish so therefore I do, in fact, have some basis for that and you can't say I didn't give it a fair chance.

Your initial question was 'Random conversational right turn here: does anyone else see personality similarities between Tamlen and Zevran?' not 'Random conversational right turn here: does anyone else who loves Tamlen and s the Dalish as much as I do see personality similarities between Tamlen and Zevran'? And why should whether or not I like the character have anything to do with whether I can have a valid view on the subject. I first looked at the question, saw nothing really similar about them (and if you're going to give them identical upbringings in your hypothetical of course you will find more similarities), and said so. Then, because the idea of comparing them isn't one I like I added an emoticon.

We can have a few conversation with Tamlen. The first he wants to kill the humans before even finding out why they were there or if there were more of them which isn't practical and the Keeper yells at you for having killed them. In fact, one of the options you can choose is 'no one will ever find out, let's kill them' showing that you know that the clan would disapprove. The next conversation you find out he's in trouble for being reckless and fighting which is why he wants to be here so much and that this is nothing new. He either outright dismisses your caution or is too overcome with excitement to really hear you and is all 'what's the worst that can happen?' which is both foolish and reckless. Then he seems something moving in a mirror and just has to touch it.

Yes, it is a very stupid, very reckless thing he does and that's pretty much all we see of him until shiek-him apologizes, possibly confesses his love, and attacks you. If all we see of him is foolish, reckless behavior then how is it unreasonable that that is how I see the character? 

I'm not saying it's unreasonable.  I'm asking for the views of those who don't see that as his only personality trait.  I don't know many men/boys under the age of 30 who have never behaved in this way.  Hell, I don't know many women who have never behaved in this way.  My sister conned me into joining her on a ridiculous number of "adventures" when we were young that were ill advised at best using some of the same lines Tamlen uses.  She wasn't being truly reckless, she just didn't see the danger because she didn't have the experience to see it.  Nothing bad had ever happened to us, so parental warnings just sounded like them being over-protective.  Tamlen is a hunter, has been allowed to take the Vallaslin.  The keeper and clan would not have put him in that position if he were truly reckless as in having no concern for anyone's safety.

[sami jo]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Well Duncan was getting what he wanted out of that fight, though he probably didn't like sacrificing all those soldiers at least he, unlike Cailan, had a greater goal in mind rather Glory.

It is my belief that Duncan thought that a defeat at Ostagar would open the eyes of the nobility of Fereldan and thus allow the Chevaliers into Fereldan. It was not his job to care if Fereldan got conquered by Orlais afterwards, it was his job to end the Blight, and I think for his part he did it well.

While Loghain might have been undermining Cailan, it is important to remember one thing about war: Even in victories you have casualties: Wounded, Dead, Missing. Cailan simply ignored all this.

I might think he was simply putting up a brave face for his men....but I think there is a limit to that.

Again, I don't entirely disagree with you.  I think Cailin *could* have been a good leader, not that he *was* a good leader.  Glory was certainly part of his motivation, but the documents in RtO suggest he wasn't as big of an airhead as he seemed.  He was naive, which is a dangerous thing in a king.