35177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sannox]

@ Aro, Great story!  That's the kind of thing I like to read on kmeme.  Apart from being very good, it's actually kinky!

@ Soignee, I really like Missa's tummy tattoos.  They look like dwarf tatttoos.  

@ Tell, Kaioku's Zev tattoos are gorgeous and I think they seem much more personal to the character than most that I've seen.  

I still imagine something different, though! 

@ Jenovan, I wonder?  I got the impression that when killing marks, the sex took place after they knew he was going to kill them - which is disturbing, but would mean the tattoos didn't matter.  But with Isabella it would be different.  Perhaps tattoos were common in Antiva, and only the Crows were able to identify which tattoos marked out Crows.   Perhaps the Crows had a lot of a liaisons outside of work, and it was common for people to sleep with a Crow as a lover, but they wouldn't expect him/her to be 'working'.  Maybe Isabella knew he was a Crow, but just didn't know that her husband was a target. 

However, that would mean that Crows with a lot of lovers would become well-known as Crows, which would presumably make their job a little harder.   Or perhaps not - if they usually sneaked in to places to assassinate people, it wouldn't make any difference.  Or perhaps it would help, as they'd sometimes have friends on the inside.   That could be the reason why the Crows preferred attractive recruits - more inside contacts.  

ETA: Now I need a picture!

Modifié par Sannox, 14 juin 2010 - 02:07 .

[Aroihkin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sometimes people are just mean. That's why I hate the Dark Lord Potter forums so much...those people are REALLY mean, even to stories they like. They have a few of my stories up there and whenever I get tempted to wander over there and see what people have to say it ruins my will to write for, like, a week.

Yeah... but I don't think it would even ****** me off if the actual artists were posting it here for people to look at, or if half of the crit was constructive during those times that made me see red. Usually it's myself and Mina and maybe a few others who turns around and goes "Well, you see..." and are constructive about it / explain why that character's jaw-line makes them look feminine and how the rest of the picture is quite good.

Modifié par Aroihkin, 14 juin 2010 - 02:07 .

[Sannox]

I think I'm incapable of saying anything constructive, as I just don't know enough. I hope that people reading would be able to recognise that if I'm criticising it's just an 'I don't like it'. I know there have been some pictures posted, where I haven't liked the artist's take on Zevran the character, but I've thought the actual artwork was great.

(ETA: I don't know if I actually have said anything critical.  I think I've just thought it!  And kept quiet, because the artist has every right to have a different take on Zevran).

Modifié par Sannox, 14 juin 2010 - 02:15 .

[Minaleth]

Uuh, and I thought how nice are we to fanartists.

Well, when I post someone else's fanart I do not critique it, it's chosen by me as good enough to post and all I expect is you to look at it and have a nicer day. Maybe I am blind but I didn't notice any fanart bashing.

When I post my own stuff, I do expect to be criticized because honestly most of the time it is not DaVinci quality drawing and I am actually quite surprised no one picks up on the details. Once the picture is on the web, you have to be ready to put up with some conforntation about it *shrugs*. Besides I find any reaction interesting, even the bashing would rather raise curious questions than make me upset (that's why am I hard to ofend).
Anyway I do it just for fun (which I already had while drawing it).

When active member posts their own fanart I try to provide positive feedback pointing out features that turned out good, hoping that it will encourage them to do more art.

Edit: read the rest of posts before mine and I know what Aro meant now... Imo it was not that harsh, but I see how it is actually unfair. I even know some people would be upset only byt the fact that their art is posted outside DevArt. 

Modifié par Minaleth, 14 juin 2010 - 02:45 .

[Verly]

I'm used to people not commenting on my art on devart. lol. I can admit it's not great myself.

[Aroihkin]

There's only been a few instances of it that were severe enough to truly ****** me off, but it was enough times that when I see nice fanart on devart and consider linking it here, I generally just close the tab.

And I'm not the only who sees it; the couple of times I had to walk away from my computer, I linked my roommate who also wondered aloud what nasty crap people here would have to say about her stuff if she ever drew Zevran.

It also admittedly hasn't happened in a long time, since I decided that the next time it happened I would go off instead of walking away, and that was... god, like a month ago or something. But... I haven't felt like tempting it, either.

I used to post a lot of people's fanart. The "rogues do it from behind" fanart was originally linked by me, even, a few times as a pagetopper.

--'Tch. If folks want to think I'm overreacting or whatever, so be it. I'm still not going to participate in the backbiting, and I have been made to wonder many times what would be said about my stuff if I wasn't here to read it, since it's the non-thread-posters that get raked over the coals like that.

As if it's not a public thread with an absolute ton of lurkers...

(And I still post other people's art ocassionally, but nothing nearly as often as I used to.)

Modifié par Aroihkin, 14 juin 2010 - 02:30 .

[Aroihkin]

Sannox wrote...

@ Aro, Great story!  That's the kind of thing I like to read on kmeme.  Apart from being very good, it's actually kinky!

Daww, thank you~ the art of it I'm drawing isn't perfectly accurate, Zev still has his gloves on when he shouldn't... and the room isn't right, but I did make sure to leave off one of Zev's belts. ;D

The tattoo discussion is interesting, I've wondered that myself. I figure it's maybe a combination of tattoos being common there and Crows sleeping with non-targets regularly. Remember that being a Crow is supposed to be a thing of respect in Antiva, they're celebrities and IIRC have no problem finding random bed-mates...

It would make actually sleeping with on a gamble, though. But apparently people still do it! Maybe it's a thrill.

Edit: In fact, now that I've put it in writing, I put a little more weight on the celebrity status idea than on the tattoos being common idea. If it's common for them to fall into bed with whoever, without anyone dying, why not? Particularly if you don't know about there being a contract out on you, or you think you've bought that particular Cell's loyalty if you're a politician or etc...

Modifié par Aroihkin, 14 juin 2010 - 02:51 .

[Minaleth]

Aroihkin wrote...
--'Tch. If folks want to think I'm overreacting or whatever, so be it. I'm still not going to participate in the backbiting, and I have been made to wonder many times what would be said about my stuff if I wasn't here to read it, since it's the non-thread-posters that get raked over the coals like that.

I can answer that I would have linked it, because sooner or later I would find it on DA. I would probably add something like "Holy **** look at this, it's done in paint, omg!"

[jenovan]

Sannox wrote...

@ Jenovan, I wonder?  I got the impression that when killing marks, the sex took place after they knew he was going to kill them - which is disturbing, but would mean the tattoos didn't matter.  But with Isabella it would be different.  Perhaps tattoos were common in Antiva, and only the Crows were able to identify which tattoos marked out Crows.   Perhaps the Crows had a lot of a liaisons outside of work, and it was common for people to sleep with a Crow as a lover, but they wouldn't expect him/her to be 'working'.  Maybe Isabella knew he was a Crow, but just didn't know that her husband was a target. 

However, that would mean that Crows with a lot of lovers would become well-known as Crows, which would presumably make their job a little harder.   Or perhaps not - if they usually sneaked in to places to assassinate people, it wouldn't make any difference.  Or perhaps it would help, as they'd sometimes have friends on the inside.   That could be the reason why the Crows preferred attractive recruits - more inside contacts. 

I was thinking the whole "only the Crows recognize Crow tattoos" thing, yes.  Sort of hiding in plain sight, as it were.  I would think that sex might happen before murderous intent at least some of the time, and then there would be situations like Isabela's where the sex wasn't with the target, but as a way to get close.  This kinda ties in to the inside contact idea -- I like that!  I could see an assassin building up a "relationship" with helpful guards, servants or the like... even if a person wasn't immediately useful, they might be some day, if they work for someone particularly important.   Hell, that sort of stuff might even factor into whether a Master would accept a contract -- if he knew someone in his command had useful contacts...

Hmm, interesting things to ponder when setting up Crow-centric stories... *steeples fingers*

Edit:

Aroihkin wrote...

The tattoo discussion is interesting, I've wondered that myself. I figure it's maybe a combination of tattoos being common there and Crows sleeping with non-targets regularly. Remember that being a Crow is supposed to be a thing of respect in Antiva, they're celebrities and IIRC have no problem finding random bed-mates...

It would make actually sleeping with on a gamble, though. But apparently people still do it! Maybe it's a thrill.

Edit: In fact, now that I've put it in writing, I put a little more weight on the celebrity status idea than on the tattoos being common idea. If it's common for them to fall into bed with whoever, without anyone dying, why not? Particularly if you don't know about there being a contract out on you, or you think you've bought that particular Cell's loyalty if you're a politician or etc...

Hmm, there is a sense that they have a certain amount of status by being Crows... my question would be, who are they (in)famous to?  Like... they might be known as Crows among the "low" society, or something..  the seedy taverns, the less classy ****houses, whatever.  But would they be "out" to the nobility, the rich merchants, and so on -- the actual types of folks who they'd be killing?  That would seem less than helpful, in some cases.

Of course, there could be that whole thrill of the risk, true   But at least some of these folks have to be more sensible... I hope. XD  Then again, maybe the ones who *could* be approached by seduction were the less sensible ones to begin with. XD

Modifié par jenovan, 14 juin 2010 - 03:03 .

[soignee]

Aroihkin wrote...

Soignee, no one whined at me for posting their stuff, if that's what you think. I just find it personally distasteful when people here go off on Random Person's art of Zevran. FFS, it's not their job to draw fanart for the character we all ostensibly like; they're not getting paid for it. And they didn't post it here for the peanut gallery, they posted it on deviantart.

Just because you're not being paid for something and doing it for your own merit, doesn't mean that it should be held seperately from opinion then work that is.

An example: my mother runs several company/packs of Girl Guides/Brownies, which is the UK equivilent of Girl Scouts. She doesn't get paid. She spends a fair chunk of her time devoted to this; fund raising, paperwork, training... On top of that, because of the laws over here she had to do health and safety exams and police checks because she works with children. All that hassle, and not getting paid, as well as the abuse from parents who view her as cheap babysitting service.

Just because you do something for free and out of a place where monetary gain is not an issue, doesn't mean it should suffer in quality and people should not react to it.

I get the fragility of the ego and nervously posting something... But it's very naive to assume that an artist/writer is only going to get constructive, proper feedback when they shout in the dark on the internets, even in a fan community. Don't post if it's at the back of your mind, "someone's going to say something bad about this," and you not want to hear it. Even if it doesn't reach your eyeline.

You want proper feedback on artwork? Post it at a place where crits are done. Ask for a critique, which usually helps, rather then I DID THIS. Even if it's something you've done for free in your own time and out of your own enjoyment.  Note- the latter part of this should be the main reason you're posting it in the first place, regardless. "Hello internets, I made cake. Would you like some?"

No one during these little sessions even goes and offers suggestions or anything on the artist's page or wherever the link goes to. Nope, it's all done in our little clubhouse on the internets.

Why should they? I am not oblidged to review every piece of literature, music, theatre show, art, chibi doodle, film etc I've ever seen. I only review when things effect me, whatever the reaction. I can tilt my head and go, "hmm the eyeline seems skewered on that fanart... Anyway what do you think about these shoes?" On this thread and not feel guilty. Creative consciousness is a funny thing, amirite?

And note... I never went off before. I made one comment here about why I for one don't really post other people's fanart anymore... and I think it's well within my right to not participate in something that just p*sses me off.

I was remarking that it's okay to have an opinion. We are not holding hands and chanting "we are rediculously awesome!" Like a support group. It's a thread made up of a collection of regulars that keep it alive, to be honest, as well as regular readers who have no idea what to say/here for the lulz and probable friday pronz. I've wandered off the forums for a bit when discussions I hate pop up again as I got nothing to add, but I know I can chip in my opinion and it be okay, because that's the nature of forums.

Waffle, anyone?

[Sarah1281]

Aroihkin wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sometimes people are just mean. That's why I hate the Dark Lord Potter forums so much...those people are REALLY mean, even to stories they like. They have a few of my stories up there and whenever I get tempted to wander over there and see what people have to say it ruins my will to write for, like, a week.

Yeah... but I don't think it would even ****** me off if the actual artists were posting it here for people to look at, or if half of the crit was constructive during those times that made me see red. Usually it's myself and Mina and maybe a few others who turns around and goes "Well, you see..." and are constructive about it / explain why that character's jaw-line makes them look feminine and how the rest of the picture is quite good.

It's the same there. I mean, I'm sure some people post their own work but most is just recs by other people and then everyone else tears it apart.

[Creature 1]

jenovan wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

The tattoo discussion is interesting, I've wondered that myself. I figure it's maybe a combination of tattoos being common there and Crows sleeping with non-targets regularly. Remember that being a Crow is supposed to be a thing of respect in Antiva, they're celebrities and IIRC have no problem finding random bed-mates...

It would make actually sleeping with on a gamble, though. But apparently people still do it! Maybe it's a thrill.

Edit: In fact, now that I've put it in writing, I put a little more weight on the celebrity status idea than on the tattoos being common idea. If it's common for them to fall into bed with whoever, without anyone dying, why not? Particularly if you don't know about there being a contract out on you, or you think you've bought that particular Cell's loyalty if you're a politician or etc...

Hmm, there is a sense that they have a certain amount of status by being Crows... my question would be, who are they (in)famous to?  Like... they might be known as Crows among the "low" society, or something..  the seedy taverns, the less classy ****houses, whatever.  But would they be "out" to the nobility, the rich merchants, and so on -- the actual types of folks who they'd be killing?  That would seem less than helpful, in some cases.

Of course, there could be that whole thrill of the risk, true   But at least some of these folks have to be more sensible... I hope. XD  Then again, maybe the ones who *could* be approached by seduction were the less sensible ones to begin with. XD

This (Crow notoriety and tattoos) is another one of those things that makes me want to smack the writers on the back of the head and ask, "What were you thinking?!"  It makes no sense!  If I lived in Antiva and had rich enemies, you can bet I'd know who all of the known Crows were, and would keep them away from me if I could.  If the Crows are known anywhere in society, they'll be known to the rich.  If you're rich it's not too hard to hire someone to go hang out where the Crows are known and produce sketches for you.  As far as avoiding sleeping with unknown Crows, not too difficult it seems.  Just pick partners with reliably known childhoods that don't involve oubliettes and poison lessons.  

Anyways I'm dealing with a problem with Zev's Crow tattoos right now.  Body makeup only goes so far.  Hopefully I can solve it, because otherwise it's going to sink a story. 

[Tellervo]

I kind of got the impression that the only known Crows are the Masters and screw-ups. Since all contracts are handled through Masters. Without knowing the structure of the organization, though, this discussion can't come to much of a conclusion.



So, the Masters are handlers for the Crow cells, and the signs and tells for Crows are known only to them and other Crows. That seems most logical to me. In which case, tats would still work, and rather well.

[Creature 1]

I'm also assuming that Antivans are wild for tattoos. Perhaps I can invent some type of ink darker than henna good for temporarily modifying giveaway tattoos.

[jenovan]

Creature 1 wrote...

This (Crow notoriety and tattoos) is another one of those things that makes me want to smack the writers on the back of the head and ask, "What were you thinking?!"  It makes no sense!  If I lived in Antiva and had rich enemies, you can bet I'd know who all of the known Crows were, and would keep them away from me if I could.  If the Crows are known anywhere in society, they'll be known to the rich.  If you're rich it's not too hard to hire someone to go hang out where the Crows are known and produce sketches for you. 

Good point.  Although the first thought that comes to mind is, who are these informants more afraid of, their employers or the Crows?   Still, agreed that recognizability doesn't make a lot of sense, too many potential pitfalls...

Tellervo wrote...

So, the Masters are handlers for the Crow cells, and the signs and tells for Crows are known only to them and other Crows. That seems most logical to me. In which case, tats would still work, and rather well.

Sounds good to me.

Creature 1 wrote...

I'm also assuming that Antivans are wild for tattoos. Perhaps I can invent some type of ink darker than henna good for temporarily modifying giveaway tattoos.

Fantasy-based herbalism is GO!   (Seriously, that doesn't sound out of the question...)

[Aroihkin]

soignee wrote...

Aroihkin wrote...

Soignee, no one whined at me for posting their stuff, if that's what you think. I just find it personally distasteful when people here go off on Random Person's art of Zevran. FFS, it's not their job to draw fanart for the character we all ostensibly like; they're not getting paid for it. And they didn't post it here for the peanut gallery, they posted it on deviantart.

Just because you're not being paid for something and doing it for your own merit, doesn't mean that it should be held seperately from opinion then work that is.

An example: my mother runs several company/packs of Girl Guides/Brownies, which is the UK equivilent of Girl Scouts. She doesn't get paid. She spends a fair chunk of her time devoted to this; fund raising, paperwork, training... On top of that, because of the laws over here she had to do health and safety exams and police checks because she works with children. All that hassle, and not getting paid, as well as the abuse from parents who view her as cheap babysitting service.

Just because you do something for free and out of a place where monetary gain is not an issue, doesn't mean it should suffer in quality and people should not react to it.

I get the fragility of the ego and nervously posting something... But it's very naive to assume that an artist/writer is only going to get constructive, proper feedback when they shout in the dark on the internets, even in a fan community. Don't post if it's at the back of your mind, "someone's going to say something bad about this," and you not want to hear it. Even if it doesn't reach your eyeline.

You want proper feedback on artwork? Post it at a place where crits are done. Ask for a critique, which usually helps, rather then I DID THIS. Even if it's something you've done for free in your own time and out of your own enjoyment.  Note- the latter part of this should be the main reason you're posting it in the first place, regardless. "Hello internets, I made cake. Would you like some?"

No one during these little sessions even goes and offers suggestions or anything on the artist's page or wherever the link goes to. Nope, it's all done in our little clubhouse on the internets.

Why should they? I am not oblidged to review every piece of literature, music, theatre show, art, chibi doodle, film etc I've ever seen. I only review when things effect me, whatever the reaction. I can tilt my head and go, "hmm the eyeline seems skewered on that fanart... Anyway what do you think about these shoes?" On this thread and not feel guilty. Creative consciousness is a funny thing, amirite?

And note... I never went off before. I made one comment here about why I for one don't really post other people's fanart anymore... and I think it's well within my right to not participate in something that just p*sses me off.

I was remarking that it's okay to have an opinion. We are not holding hands and chanting "we are rediculously awesome!" Like a support group. It's a thread made up of a collection of regulars that keep it alive, to be honest, as well as regular readers who have no idea what to say/here for the lulz and probable friday pronz. I've wandered off the forums for a bit when discussions I hate pop up again as I got nothing to add, but I know I can chip in my opinion and it be okay, because that's the nature of forums.

Waffle, anyone?

And you just made my point for me never posting other people's artwork in this thread anymore. After all, if a total stranger takes it off deviantart -- where critique and concrit are generally encouraged -- and links to it in this thread, that means it's open season for pointless snark for the sake of snark if folks are so inclined. Good to know!

Just because it could happen, and does happen, doesn't mean it's not a dick thing to do.

And, just because you're not obligated to go post a review/concrit doesn't mean it's cool to sit back and tear sh*t apart in a public thread for the lulz. You're essentially standing just out of earshot of the person and snickering aloud to all your friends and any passerby about their fanwork. And hey, if one of those passerby tells the person the crap you're saying, they just need to grow a thicker skin or GTFO of your fandom, right?

And I'm not talking about just not liking it and saying as much. I've already stated that it's when it turns into a mock-fest that it pisses me off. I'm really not sure how else to put it for you, so I'll just call it done.

If snarking just out of earshot is what gives you your thrills, then more power to you, I guess.

[Creature 1]

I don't remember much art mocking.  We've done some fanfic mocking, which I occasionally take part in, but sometimes stuff is so awful it's hard not to laugh.  There are whole communities devoted to the discussion of really bad fic, and not just bad in execution but bad in concept (to pick a random fandom, HP fics that "rehab" Hermione by making her suddenly knockout gorgeous, or get rid of her embarrassing Muggle parents by making her an adopted pureblood, or put Draco in leather pants, or slash Harry with Voldemort(!)).  Fanart generally doesn't reach the same lows that fanfiction does, perhaps because it's more work. 

[Sarah1281]

Fanart takes more work than fanfics? Maybe for one-shots but for longer ones? I rather doubt it.

[Aroihkin]

jenovan wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

I'm also assuming that Antivans are wild for tattoos. Perhaps I can invent some type of ink darker than henna good for temporarily modifying giveaway tattoos.

Fantasy-based herbalism is GO!   (Seriously, that doesn't sound out of the question...)

Can't henna get pretty damn dark if you reapply it a few times and such? I know nothing of henna, but I remember my roommate talking about when she'd put really, really dark designs on her palms and such by putting more time into it.

Though if not, I don't see why they couldn't do something like, I dunno, mix it with Concentrator (whatever that is) or something, haha. DA has crazy herbalism as it is. A poultice will fix a torn jugular!

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Fanart takes more work than fanfics? Maybe for one-shots but for longer ones? I rather doubt it.

It is easier to write crappy fanfiction than drawing bad fanart.

[Creature 1]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Fanart takes more work than fanfics? Maybe for one-shots but for longer ones? I rather doubt it.

If you're writing really bad fanfic, yes.  After all, most everyone can talk, you just have to write it down instead of speaking it. 

For those who are not artistic, fanart attempts could be like this: 



I'd call that so lacking that it's not even bad.  Making bad fanart requires more ability and more effort than making bad fanfic. 

Edit:  You can make some spectacularly bad fanfic in the space of a few hundred words.  

Modifié par Creature 1, 14 juin 2010 - 04:29 .

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Fanart takes more work than fanfics? Maybe for one-shots but for longer ones? I rather doubt it.

It is easier to write crappy fanfiction than drawing bad fanart.

I don't draw fanart but say it takes, what, 30 hours to complete a crappy piece (and if it's that bad I doubt it would take that long). If you have a crappy fanfic that's, say, only 40,000 words then MAYBE you could get it written in the same time if you literally type as things occur to you and don't hit a wall or plan it out. Anything longer and you simply can't compare it. As a general rule, if it takes you longer to do you've put more work into it.

[Creature 1]

Aroihkin wrote...

jenovan wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

I'm also assuming that Antivans are wild for tattoos. Perhaps I can invent some type of ink darker than henna good for temporarily modifying giveaway tattoos.

Fantasy-based herbalism is GO!   (Seriously, that doesn't sound out of the question...)

Can't henna get pretty damn dark if you reapply it a few times and such? I know nothing of henna, but I remember my roommate talking about when she'd put really, really dark designs on her palms and such by putting more time into it.

Though if not, I don't see why they couldn't do something like, I dunno, mix it with Concentrator (whatever that is) or something, haha. DA has crazy herbalism as it is. A poultice will fix a torn jugular!

It has a reddish tone instead of black, but that can be fixed simply enough.  Simply add the extract of a quagglewort tuber and Bob's your uncle!  

[soignee]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Fanart takes more work than fanfics? Maybe for one-shots but for longer ones? I rather doubt it.

It is easier to write crappy fanfiction than drawing bad fanart.

Depennnnds. writing is like passing a large stone to me. Drawing yeah I have crap F*CK YOU HANDS I'LL JUST HIDE YOU THEN moments, but it's easier.

[Creature 1]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Fanart takes more work than fanfics? Maybe for one-shots but for longer ones? I rather doubt it.

It is easier to write crappy fanfiction than drawing bad fanart.

I don't draw fanart but say it takes, what, 30 hours to complete a crappy piece (and if it's that bad I doubt it would take that long). If you have a crappy fanfic that's, say, only 40,000 words then MAYBE you could get it written in the same time if you literally type as things occur to you and don't hit a wall or plan it out. Anything longer and you simply can't compare it. As a general rule, if it takes you longer to do you've put more work into it.

At the horrible fanfic forum I used to post at much of the fanfic was only hundreds or a few thousands of words long, and that was enough to make your eyes bleed and often make you reach for the brainbleach.  

Plan it out??  This is bad fanfic we're talking about, why would you do a thing like that?