35177 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

sami jo wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Heh, then I hate to tell you this, but you missed the final part of the romance as well. It happens AFTER he offers the earring for the first time, and you have to invite him to the tent to open that dialog. It's where he finally declares his feelings, and if you turned down the earring the first time he offered it, perhaps proposes.

I hate you. I really really do.

Thanks all the same for telling me this. I have a save in camp just before marching to Redcliff. Was a very interesting conversation....almost comical when he get's angry and turns your offer down for entering the tent.

I didn't see him propose when I turned down the ring though, guess he doesn't.

I think that part of the reason Zevran's romance gets a bad rap in some circles is because it is so incredibly easy to miss big things in it and all the really good moments happen so late in the game even though he is one of the easiest to get into bed. 

I think that's exactly it.  So many people do think that Zevran's romance finishes at the first offer of the earring and then say how shallow the romance is, not even realizing that they missed the part where he actually does declare his feelings and commits.  Plus the bugged gates dialog does not help matters at all.

Edit: Hmmm, page topper.  I haven't played in so long so ummmm, old screenshot time!  So do we do THIS (funeral)


or THIS? (Alistair about to kiss the warden goodbye before he kills himself as Zevran looks on)

I think Zevran looks happier in the second one!

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 juin 2010 - 02:01 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Shrug....even after only having seen it till the earing part in my first run while romancing him, I still thought the romance was almost as deep as the Morrigan one ( now that I see what is after, I think it just as deep ). If any romance is shallow, it's the Alistair one.



Oh and I agree with you that refusing the earring is the way to go. If he cannot admit his feelings towards the Warden then there is no reason to continue the romance.



P.S. Since I know you play Fallout 3, here are some pics ejoslin.

[Nilfalasiel]

ejoslin wrote...

I actually think turning it down is nicer -- it's one of the few times that you can tell Zevran that he really does mean something to you and that it's more than just casual. But a lot of people disagree with me on that.

I agree that the "I know how I feel about you" line is totally worth refusing the earring for. However, if you don't know it's coming, the refusal sounds like the Warden ****ing about Zev not giving enough meaning to the gift, without ever stating that he/she is giving it meaning. I don't think that's entirely fair: Zev does give it meaning, he says as much, or at least, lets it slip. The Warden, on the other hand, says absolutely nothing about his/her feelings on the subject at that point. Of course, it's implied that the reason he/she wants the gift to have meaning is because he/she does have feelings and wants Zev to reciprocate. But Zev is the one who's being more forthcoming in that particular convo, and the Warden shuts him down pretty unceremoniously. 2-way street and all that. It's a good thing the second offer convo makes up for it.

I also agree with sami jo: the Zev romance probably gets so much incomprehension because it takes work to see satisfying results. You have to trust someone who tried to kill you, look past the sleazy comments, dig around in his past and manoeuver around his hesitations to discover something beautiful waiting at the end. Yes, you end up with someone who's extremely devoted and loyal...but was there any indication at the outset that that's what was going to happen? Not really. And not everyone is willing to bet on long-term profits like that. Especially when Alistair has clearly visible short-term benefits, so to speak.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 16 juin 2010 - 02:37 .

[sami jo]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Shrug....even after only having seen it till the earing part in my first run while romancing him, I still thought the romance was almost as deep as the Morrigan one ( now that I see what is after, I think it just as deep ). If any romance is shallow, it's the Alistair one.

Oh and I agree with you that refusing the earring is the way to go. If he cannot admit his feelings towards the Warden then there is no reason to continue the romance.

Are you trying to raise the ire of the Ali-girls? I agree with you, but they can be a little scary at times.   

(Yes, this is the pot calling the kettle black.)

[Costin_Razvan]

Are you trying to raise the ire of the Ali-girls? I agree with you, but they can be a little scary at times.

The same can be said of the Zevran-girls. What don't look at me like that, you know I am right.



I don't think I can raise the ire of the Ali-Girls more then I already though.

[ejoslin]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I actually think turning it down is nicer -- it's one of the few times that you can tell Zevran that he really does mean something to you and that it's more than just casual. But a lot of people disagree with me on that.

I agree that the "I know how I feel about you" line is totally worth refusing the earring for. However, if you don't know it's coming, the refusal sounds like the Warden ****ing about Zev not giving enough meaning to the gift, without ever stating that he/she is giving it meaning. I don't think that's entirely fair: Zev does give it meaning, he says as much, or at least, lets it slip. The Warden, on the other hand, says absolutely nothing about his/her feelings on the subject at that point. Of course, it's implied that the reason he/she wants the gift to have meaning is because he/she does have feelings and wants Zev to reciprocate. But Zev is the one who's being more forthcoming in that particular convo, and the Warden shuts him down pretty unceremoniously. 2-way street and all that. It's a good thing the second offer convo makes up for it.

I also agree with sami jo: the Zev romance probably gets so much incomprehension because it takes work to see satisfying results. You have to trust someone who tried to kill you, look past the sleazy comments, dig around in his past and manoeuver around his hesitations to discover something beautiful waiting at the end. Yes, you end up with someone who's extremely devoted and loyal...but was there any indication at the outset that that's what was going to happen? Not really. And not everyone is willing to bet on long-term profits like that. Especially when Alistair has clearly visible short-term benefits, so to speak.

Nono, I'm talking about the line, "I won't take it unless it means something."   I don't think Zevran is being forthcoming in that conversation at ALL -- he says, "Don't read anything into this, it is JUST a thank you.  Don't get the wrong idea about it." and goes on to say that the warden should feel free to wear it or sell it.  When the warden asks if it's a token of affection he just avoids answering it completely.  Zevran is obviously lying and evading, but he IS saying (the words, not the meaning) that the gift means nothing so the Warden actually is the one putting his/her feelings on the line there saying a gift like that has to mean something in order for them to accept it.  The warden is pushing for the unspoken between them to become spoken, and actually takes the first step there.

Edit: Then again, Zev doesn't strike me as angry at the end of that conversation, or hurt.  He's frustrated, yeh.  But it's more to do with he does NOT want to deal with what he's feeling, and the warden is no longer going to let him get away with that because it's beyond that.  At least, that's the way I see it!

Edit: I also think that there was an indication at the beginning, though it can be taken a few ways.  When Zevran begins to trust the warden and you switch to the next approval (warm or interested), he does ask about the future and what the warden intends to do with him.  If they have a chance of staying together after the blight, and that if they're a couple he may not want to leave.  Now, whether the warden trusts Zevran or thinks he's just conning him/her is another story.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 juin 2010 - 03:21 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Are you trying to raise the ire of the Ali-girls? I agree with you, but they can be a little scary at times.

The same can be said of the Zevran-girls. What don't look at me like that, you know I am right.

I don't think I can raise the ire of the Ali-Girls more then I already though.

Given how often I've had problems with Alistair fangirls compared to Zevran fangirls, I'm inclined to think that the former are scarier but then I'm probably biased...

[Minaleth]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The same can be said of the Zevran-girls. What don't look at me like that, you know I am right.

Yeah, especially me. I am so scary it throws hamsters and strawberries into the air. Just point a finger and I'll go scare anyone you want.

[Costin_Razvan]

I agree with you Sarah...the hate ridden ignorant speeches I got from the Alistair fangirls just because I like Loghain more then I like the bastard king, certainly is above any flak I got from the Zevran fangirls.( and that was well deserved )

God forbid that I have an opinion of my own that contradicts the ones of the Ali-Girls.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 juin 2010 - 03:22 .

[ejoslin]

To be fair, most of the Ali Fans are decent and reasonable. There are a couple (I won't name names) who are either self-appointed moderators or The Knowers Of All Truths and are quite vocal. But most aren't like that.

Edit: Me, I can't quite figure out why people get that wound up over a single player game. It's like the trolls we get in here who think people will be upset if they kill Zevran in their game.  Ummm, no.  He's a fictional character with a great story.  But neither Zevran nor Alistair REALLY care if someone kills them, betrays them, whatever.  It's part of what makes the story so interesting, all the different ways you can play the warden and the different reactions you get from your companions.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 juin 2010 - 03:26 .

[Costin_Razvan]

It's like the trolls we get in here who think people will be upset if they kill Zevran in their game. Ummm, no

That is why I respect the Zevran Girls more then I do the Alistair ones...

Also Ejoslin, I suppose you never took part in the Loghain Defense thread huh? it was, mostly, a 50 page long FLAME war, somewhat moderated by David Gaider.

Nothing quite like getting called a idiot for letting Loghain live by dozens of people.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 juin 2010 - 03:31 .

[soignee]

Minaleth wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The same can be said of the Zevran-girls. What don't look at me like that, you know I am right.

Yeah, especially me. I am so scary it throws hamsters and strawberries into the air. Just point a finger and I'll go scare anyone you want.

Actual visual representation of Mina's scariness:






GRRRR SCARY MINA GRRRRRRR

[ejoslin]

Hah, I may have tossed in a post or two -- there have been a few of those. Whether Loghain lives really depends on my character. Human noble female always kills him -- it's calculated, though. A human noble male would spare him. In both cases, it's using this event to solidify his/her own political position as spouse of the regnant. City elf would kill him and make Alistair king no matter what. Anyone else, it's a tossup, and Alistair and Anora get married as they're actually a good ruling couple.

I think Cauthrien makes a good point outside the landsmeet chamber. When you first find out about Alistair outside of redcliff (IF you do) you have a dialog choice about using his position to help and Alistair shoots it down immediately. I always thought Cauthrien's point was that if Alistair were a true leader, he would have already been taking steps to LEAD. Of course, the line is ambiguous enough that most people take it differently I suppose.

Edit: Even I"m scared of Mina now 

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 juin 2010 - 03:38 .

[sami jo]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I agree with you Sarah...the hate ridden ignorant speeches I got from the Alistair fangirls just because I like Loghain more then I like the bastard king, certainly is above any flak I got from the Zevran fangirls.( and that was well deserved )

God forbid that I have an opinion of my own that contradicts the ones of the Ali-Girls.

I did say pot/kettle for a reason.  

[sami jo]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It's like the trolls we get in here who think people will be upset if they kill Zevran in their game. Ummm, no

That is why I respect the Zevran Girls more then I do the Alistair ones...

Also Ejoslin, I suppose you never took part in the Loghain Defense thread huh? it was, mostly, a 50 page long FLAME war, somewhat moderated by David Gaider.

Nothing quite like getting called a idiot for letting Loghain live by dozens of people.

I peeked in there and shuddered.  Some people have a hard time with the notion that these are fictional characters. (and no tolerance for anyone having a different viewpoint) 

[Verly]

for sure, I like ALL the romantic options in the game. I just happen to like Zevran's the best. I see redeeming qualities in all of them. I always feel out of place posting in the other fanish threads because there is a lot of "why is *this person* you're favorite" and I'm like..well, *this person* is not my favorite, Zev is, but I like this romance too.

[Costin_Razvan]

City elf would kill him and make Alistair king no matter what

Some people would disagree, certainly there are reasons for killing him as CE but there also reasons for sparing him. ( as it goes in any other Origin ).



I think Tirigon summed it up the best why she spared him on her CE. He is a commoner by birth, as his daughter, and a CE would have a very big reason to hate ANY Noble. Now while certainly Loghain could be hated by an elf, a CE would also hate how Eamon is trying to manipulate you into placing Alistair on the throne.

[Sarah1281]

Actually, I think the Leliana thread scares me the most. It may just be the fact it's not as long yet but they haven't actually admitted to her having any flaws yet while the Alistair thread has gone over Alistair's in great detail (and how it's all Emaon's fault).

But one thing to keep in mind is that in any gush thread you have to be very careful what you say lest people freak out on you.

[Nilfalasiel]

ejoslin wrote...

Nono, I'm talking about the line, "I won't take it unless it means something."   I don't think Zevran is being forthcoming in that conversation at ALL -- he says, "Don't read anything into this, it is JUST a thank you.  Don't get the wrong idea about it." and goes on to say that the warden should feel free to wear it or sell it.  When the warden asks if it's a token of affection he just avoids answering it completely.  Zevran is obviously lying and evading, but he IS saying (the words, not the meaning) that the gift means nothing so the Warden actually is the one putting his/her feelings on the line there saying a gift like that has to mean something in order for them to accept it.  The warden is pushing for the unspoken between them to become spoken, and actually takes the first step there.

Edit: Then again, Zev doesn't strike me as angry at the end of that conversation, or hurt.  He's frustrated, yeh.  But it's more to do with he does NOT want to deal with what he's feeling, and the warden is no longer going to let him get away with that because it's beyond that.  At least, that's the way I see it!

Lol, we are talking about the same convo, but we seem to be interpreting it very differently. Yes, he does present it as a completely throwaway gift...at first. But if you refuse it once, he insists that you take it, which contradicts his careless presentation of it. Moreover, if you do accept it, he says "it's meant a lot to me (again, contradiction with his previous carelessness), but so have...so has everything you've done." He does care, even if he's refusing to put words onto it. I know that it's meant to be the Warden putting her/his feelings on the line, but she/he doesn't actually say anything about them; to me, it feels like she/he's forcing Zev to make the first move. And for all he knows, she/he could be trying to have her/his cake and eat it: demanding commitment without giving any in return. I've been in situations like that, and I can understand why he'd be upset about it.

Because, to me, he does sound upset, not just frustrated. "You pick up every stray bit of treasure, but you won't take this"; another contradiction. If the gift was really as throwaway as he presented it, he wouldn't have any reason to say it in this tone. His earlier statement that "you can wear it or sell it, or anything you like" sounds like the Warden could just toss it in the trash, and he wouldn't care. But refuse to take it, and suddenly it's not so trivial anymore.

[Verly]

as a CE your own father was about to be sold into slavery...I kill Loghain every time as a CE just based on that alone.

[Aroihkin]

I haven't gone neeeaaar Alistair'ss crowd here on BSN and really don't intend to, even if I do more with Alistair in the future. You guys will have to put up with my stuff if I ever draw him, cuz I'm not touching his thread. XD And he narrated one chapter of IO and may narrate more if I can ever get comfortable with his "voice". The fact that I don't read Alistair fanfic is probably working against me there.

But I try very hard to not associate the character with the crazy I've encountered in his fanbase.

RE city elves versus Loghain, I'm mostly set on having Alley spare him when she hits that point in Immovable Object. But... we've established that Alley is weird, and highly pragmatic, so take that as you will I guess. XD Loghain will hardly be the oddest survivor of IO.

(The choice of Loghain dying or living won't come about precisely as it goes in-game, though. So there is that.)

Modifié par Aroihkin, 16 juin 2010 - 04:09 .

[soignee]

Verly wrote...

for sure, I like ALL the romantic options in the game. I just happen to like Zevran's the best. I see redeeming qualities in all of them. I always feel out of place posting in the other fanish threads because there is a lot of "why is *this person* you're favorite" and I'm like..well, *this person* is not my favorite, Zev is, but I like this romance too.

haha I'm the same. Something about the Ali thread rubs me the wrong way though, idk what it is. Probably because it's too fast moving? Kind or reminds me of the time I stumbled into a private book club party and it consisted of giddy 30somethings in no way shape or form talking about books and I sort of edged out quietly, trying to find where I was meant to be instead.

I will occasionally poke the Morrigan thread as I love me some Morri, though it kind of feels like I'm wandering into one of those bars and everyone's slumped over the bar with their drinks muttering into their own misery. There may even be country played in the background to add to the dispair...

Oh mannnn now I'm imaging what all the threads are visually and it's lols. Dwarf thread it's required you wear some kind of anachonistic clothing, possibly a pipe and a velvet smoking jacket. Finest single malt whisky is served and we all sit around in leather armchairs discussing politics, or something.

Zev thread is a coffeeshop outside a piazza, watching the pretty things come and go.

[Sarah1281]

Verly wrote...

as a CE your own father was about to be sold into slavery...I kill Loghain every time as a CE just based on that alone.

And if you do spare him and confront him on it then he still won't show the slightest bit of remorse and actually kind of makes fun of you for fixating on that just because it's personal to you and no one else really cares (then again, he also makes fun of you if you call him a murderer as you can't be a general without killing people or if you keep harping on Cailan).

[Aroihkin]

doublepost, wtf

Modifié par Aroihkin, 16 juin 2010 - 04:09 .

[Minaleth]

Major LOL at hamster spam :3 :3 :3

But just so you know, I bought this thread over with calculated Zevran fanart... *evil laugh*

Edit: and the visualization of threads! That creates wonderful mental images... I still imagine ZevThread as a foyer with red velvet couches and lot's of doors... lol  

Modifié par Minaleth, 16 juin 2010 - 04:15 .