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[soignee]

HUSH YAE GIBBERIN' CORBIE YAH NOWT NAE GUD



/random scottish slurring



I always think of the raven Quoth from Discworld whenever crows and corpses come up. Eyeballs are apparently the tasty parts.

[Nilfalasiel]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Though honestly are surprised? It's easy to get stuck on the idea Zevran has some very high moral qualms. He does not, but he is against needless slaughter ( or what he perceives as needless slaughter ) like the Mages and Dalish but he also is the one to suggest keeping the Anvil. I find it in character for Zevran to approve of Cailan staying there for he is at least even partially responsible for the deaths at Ostagar. ( Regardless of what one might feel about Loghain, Cailan was in charge at Ostagar. The fact Loghain betrayed the king could mean very little ).

Different situation. Keeping the Anvil DOES serve a practical purpose: you'll have golems on your side for the final battle, and that's a sound strategic decision, if not a very humane one. On the contrary, keeping Cailan's body on the wall serves NO practical purpose: you're simply ridiculing a corpse. Even if he is responsible for the deaths at Ostagar, there's still no point leaving him there. You're not punishing him: he's already dead. You're not honouring the other soldiers: they're already dead. I don't find that taking him down is a gesture of respect for what he is or his function. It's simply that posturing his dead body, or any dead body (I wouldn't have strung up ANYbody's corpse like that),  is unnecessary cruelty. And it's just as unnecessary as the slaughter of the people at Ostagar. To me, it seems that you're no better than Cailan if you do that (if you believe that he's the main offender for what happened at Ostagar). I know Zev has no moral hangups like Wynne or Leliana, but he does disapprove of unnecessary cruelty, as you've said yourself; and leaving Cailan there is just that.

IMO, of course.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 08 juillet 2010 - 03:11 .

[Sarah1281]

Loghain wants to feed it to the wolves as he felt Cailan was too much of a fool for the royal burial you are forced to suggest instead of the 'hey, we burn everybody and he counts as everybody' one I would have wanted to give him. He does not want to leave the body there because that's a trophy for the darkspawn.

[Costin_Razvan]

To me, it seems that you're no better than Cailan if you do that (if you believe that he's the main offender for what happened at Ostagar). I know Zev has no moral hangups like Wynne or Leliana, but he does disapprove of unnecessary cruelty, as you've said yourself; and leaving Cailan there is just that.

It is not a cruel act to leave the body there ( even if you believe ). Cruelty ( as stated by the dictionary ) means inflicting pain upon others. Since Cailan is dead he cannot feel any pain by being stuck up there. So no, leaving him there is not cruelty, but rather a lack of any respect for a dead person.

Since I do not feel any kind of respect for Cailan I have no qualm of leaving him there. Honestly the whole flashback where you first see the body is quite emotional, and I felt a tinge of pity for him ( despite my dislike no one should die that young.... ) but I cannot bring myself to feel that much pity or respect for him as to take him down. Loghain's reason that it shows Fereldan's defeat is quite sound however, and I leave him for the wolves.

If I felt that Cailan was not fully responsible for what occurred at Ostagar then I would burn his body without a doubt, but I do not feel as such.

As for practicality. Taking him down is not an act of practicality, it's a waste of time that has everything to do with showing respect or pity for him, or refusing to show him as a symbol of Fereldan's defeat.

Leaving him there has a practical reason: You don't waste the time to take him down and burn him/leave him to the wolves.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 juillet 2010 - 03:30 .

[ejoslin]

I find Zevran OOC there -- just that there's approval or disapproval at all. I just don't see him caring either way if you leave the body up or take it down. It doesn't seem to represent anything else he cares about. Usually if you're going to get hit with disapproval from Zevran, he argues with you or at least lets you know he really doesn't like what you're about to do.

His comment there makes it seem like he feels the darkspawn deserve their trophy. That is also OOC. He's fighting the darkspawn and the blight -- why would he approve of something that does nothing but raise the moral of whom he is fighting?

Edit: I really don't have a problem with his approval or disapproval there; I just don't understand it at all.  

Then again, I don't understand why a Dwarf Casteless (the first character I took through RtO) would be saying that Cailin was of noble blood and deserved a pyre.  And it was laughable that she looked so sad about him -- she met him once and had no attachment to Ferelden.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 juillet 2010 - 03:34 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Meh....I like to think it's my reason: That Zevran felt Ostagar was a needless slaughter that happened because of Cailan, and thus he does not respect Cailan in the slightest.

Of course I can be very wrong, still it's a better reason then being OOC.

I don't get why people feel Zevran should be so very emotional about these kind of things. He IS not emotional and he tries to not be ( though he does not like needless slaughter in the slightest ). Hell the climax of his romance has him admitting that he feels emotions for you despite every fiber of his being not wanting to.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 juillet 2010 - 03:42 .

[Sarah1281]

I don't see why you have to mention he was of noble blood at all. Can't you just say that it wouldn't be right to just leave him up there and he deserved a pyre?

[ejoslin]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Meh....I like to think it's my reason: That Zevran felt Ostagar was a needless slaughter that happened because of Cailan, and thus he does not respect Cailan in the slightest.

Of course I can be very wrong, still it's a better reason then being OOC.

I don't get why people feel Zevran should be so very emotional about these kind of things. He IS not emotional and he tries to not be ( though he does not like needless slaughter in the slightest ). Hell the climax of his romance has him admitting that he feels emotions for you despite every fiber of his being not wanting to.

I do think it was OOC, actually for the reason you state right here.  He DOES get emotional about some things; slaying the dalish, siding with the slavers, destroying the anvil, killing the mages.  He lets his opinion be known and pleads with you to change your mind.  That is what makes the commentless approval change so jarring at the end of RtO.  I don't think he should have approval there at all, tbh.  No gain, no loss.  Morrigan as well, actually.  It seemed those two were given the approval they were to tick people off; nothing more.  Makes no sense either way.

Edit: I think THE most OOC there, though, is if you leave him up and Alistair is with you.  I can't imagine Alistair not just saying, FU, I'll do it myself then!  

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 juillet 2010 - 03:50 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I suppose you are right about the approval/disapproval being OOC, though maybe it has to do with the fact they feel it is a waste of time to take Cailan down, and this would make sense in the situation where Morrigan and Zevran don't care. Anyway, a few Dragon Age pics.

 Edit: I think THE most OOC there, though, is if you leave him up and Alistair is with you.  I can't imagine Alistair not just saying, FU, I'll do it myself then!  

What does he say if you leave it there? Never took him to Ostagar myself. Though Alistair growing a spine against the PC would be even MORE OOC.  Sure he grows one at the Landsmeet against the decision to spare Loghain but I would that would be a far more important decision for him then leaving or not leaving Cailan at Ostagar,

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 juillet 2010 - 04:10 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is not a cruel act to leave the body there ( even if you believe ). Cruelty ( as stated by the dictionary ) means inflicting pain upon others. Since Cailan is dead he cannot feel any pain by being stuck up there. So no, leaving him there is not cruelty, but rather a lack of any respect for a dead person.

Since I do not feel any kind of respect for Cailan I have no qualm of leaving him there. Honestly the whole flashback where you first see the body is quite emotional, and I felt a tinge of pity for him ( despite my dislike no one should die that young.... ) but I cannot bring myself to feel that much pity or respect for him as to take him down. Loghain's reason that it shows Fereldan's defeat is quite sound however, and I leave him for the wolves.

Ok, I apologize in advance for getting philosophical.

Perhaps cruelty isn't the best choice of word: I know there's no pain involved, but there is a symbolic aggression on his body. The way I understand it, you seem to be thinking that leaving him there "serves him right", or "he doesn't deserve to be taken down". But that kind of action only has a meaning if the recipient of the action can acknowledge it. Only he can't. He's dead. It doesn't serve him, just as it doesn't cause him pain. He doesn't deserve or not deserve anything: he's a corpse. You're taking into account what he did in his lifetime. But there's nothing you can do about that, and he can no longer answer for it. He's not a king. He's not a general who mistakenly led his troops to slaughter. He's just a dead person whose body is being ridiculed. What's disturbing to me about that is that the darkspawn are giving forcible meaning to something that has no meaning of its own. And it's that meaning that I find horrifying. I'd be just as disturbed by the sight if he was some random body I'd seen strung up by the side of the road.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 08 juillet 2010 - 04:24 .

[ejoslin]

Alistair throws a temper tantrum if you leave Cailin's body up. He yells and argues and such and obviously feels very VERY strongly about this.



I guess my thing is I can't bring myself to care about Cailin's body and such, so I have real problems understanding a lot of the reactions. Sten makes sense. Leliana does as well. I never took Oghren there. Loghain I see having a strong reaction, though this is his son in law, his best friend's son, and someone he feels betrayed Ferelden and his daughter. He's close to the situation. Alistair I also understand having a strong reaction -- this is his half-brother and his king. Though perhaps not as strong as the reaction he does have.



With Alistair, though, the only person he would have had to confront is the Warden. I'm not sure I can explain this well. This is a personal situation, one which has no effect on anything, really. It strikes me as a very different thing than the treaties, because Alistair realizes he can't get in the way of getting those treaties, though he may disapprove of the way you go about it. This is more personal. And it's something he could do without compromising the warden or the way Grey Wardens are viewed.



Yeh, I didn't do a good job explaining it at all.



On your recommendation I just downloaded the Witcher. It is very engaging, right from the start. I haven't put in much time, yet, but I have a feeling I'll like it, even though I'm playing a male character which I normally don't like.

[Costin_Razvan]

I suppose that makes sense.

On your recommendation I just downloaded the Witcher. It is very engaging, right from the start. I haven't put in much time, yet, but I have a feeling I'll like it, even though I'm playing a male character which I normally don't like.

It is indeed. There is no real correct moral path there. Everything you do will thrown right into your face at the end as it if was the worst possible thing to do, regardless of your reasons.

I do hope that you side with the Order though....the elves are just pathetic terrorists there ( sorry for the spoiler ).

Here are a few mods that I would really recommend.

Character Models Textures
Other Textures Mod ( download The Witcher Texturen Mod in the download page for this one )
Dark Geralt Mod, makes Geralt look more badass with his weapons and armor

Do you have the Enhanced Edition or the default game? Either way I suggest getting the latest patch ( though i gather you got it from steam? ) it fixes a lot of things.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 juillet 2010 - 04:46 .

[ejoslin]

I got the enhanced edition, and you're right, I got it from Steam. I'm not sure I could even have gotten the default game -- it was only $20 (I figured I couldn't go wrong). I love Steam; no disks, unlimited installs, and good download speeds. Oblivion mods had issues, but it seems they learned from that.

Thank you for the links! The game looks gorgeous to me as is (at 1920x1080), so even more gorgeous is a good thing.

Edit: As a complete aside, is Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic worth playing?  Gah, I missed so many games since having kids (and getting lost in EQ and then EQ2)  I have no idea about most games since FF7!

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 juillet 2010 - 05:15 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Knights of the Old Republic is bloody epic, that's all I can say honestly.



KOTOR 1 beats the **** out of Dragon Age for me.

[Cuddlezarro]

I absolutly *hate* KoTOR1

seriously other than Hk, Canderous and Jolee the characters are awful, the plot is paper thin and its only plot point of note is a plot twist so easy to see coming its not even funny

oh and Malak is a god awful cliche BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA *would twirl mustache if not for lack of jaw* villain

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 08 juillet 2010 - 05:32 .

[ejoslin]

*grin* I still have the Witcher to play, but I'll probably want something between that and FO:NV. KoTOR1 is really cheap, so I'll most likely try it. It looks like a huge franchise, though. You can buy the game for $9.99, or buy a whole bunch of games for $167.99 (not gonna happen). As soon as I finish downloading these texture mods for the Witcher and install them, I'm going to play for a bit!

Edit: I didn't download the Leliana download.  It probably is well written, but it seems so far off from what Leliana said in DAO.  I had had hopes of DLCs and expansions to actually build on DAO.  It doesn't look like that's going to happen.  It's a good thing, though; I got lost in DAO like I've gotten lost in many a good novel -- knowing that that won't be continued has been a bit of a relief in a way!

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 juillet 2010 - 05:46 .

[Verly]

speaking of other games..I've been playing a lot of FO3 lately. I'm on a quest to get all the bobble heads. stupid I know, but I decided I have to do it...only problem is that I can't find Rockopolis to save my life..damn it!

[ejoslin]

Verly wrote...

speaking of other games..I've been playing a lot of FO3 lately. I'm on a quest to get all the bobble heads. stupid I know, but I decided I have to do it...only problem is that I can't find Rockopolis to save my life..damn it!

From the FO3 Wiki...  Rockopolis!

[Corker]

@ejoslin - I haven't finished the new DLC yet (and I won't spoiler it) but yeah. It is so far similar to Leiliana's DAO story only in its broadest strokes. But I thought the opening Act in the Denerim Market was *really* well done, showcasing some of the darkly humorous mischief of "the game" as well as its simply bloody side - and all in a small package of simple but interlocking quests with multiple solutions (although only one unlocks an achievement ).

[Cuddlezarro]

well iv been playing Left 4 Dead with Charsen~ (along with Fo3,ME2, OverLord, Abes Oddessy and KoTOR2 RP)



heres my l4d character healing Charsens in an odd position =3

[Verly]

Thanks ejoslin..I didn't even think of their being a game wiki and I use the DA one all the time. duh!

[ejoslin]

@Corker Thank you! I'm still not sure I'm going to buy it yet. I've been taking a break from DAO; maybe when I get back to it all the DLCs will be in a feature package for $10 or something.

@CZ is L4D mainly a shooter or does it have a good story behind it? I've actually been looking for a decent game to play with my husband; I wasn't too impressed with Bioshock 2. We used to stomp around together in Diablo 2 but there really is only so much of that anyone can take.

@Verly NP at all. If you don't want the explorer perk, the wiki is very helpful!  I had the roughest time finding the Oasis the first time I played.  My husband actually finally helped me and took me right up to it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 juillet 2010 - 06:09 .

[Cuddlezarro]

l4d isnt an rpg so no not really





(also never played bioshock)

[ejoslin]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

l4d isnt an rpg so no not really


(also never played bioshock)

Bioshock isn't bad.  It's a shooter/RPG and pretty entertaining.  I can't see playing it more than twice, however.  

[Costin_Razvan]

Left for Dead is a zombie shooter....nothing more honestly.

I recently started an oldie again....the first game I ever played on a PC.