35177 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

I know that Oghren will cut out some of his lines in Ruck's cave. This is if you return twice with Zevran to Ruck's cave (be prepared for... action). Wynne will, I believe, cut out his lines when you talk to Filda. I haven't had anyone cut him out when speaking to Dulin Ferender- pretty sure you're supposed to hear what he says there, if you've got him along.

No, Wynne doesn't override his lines talking to Filda, and in fact, it sounds like he's talking to her rather than Filda -- also gives that conversation a different light.  

I have no clue why I can't remember Dulin's name!  RIght there is Zevran at his most Zevran though 

Edit: I cannot do Orzammar without Zevran, though.  He has the best sense of how to save the Dwarves from the darkspawn -- which may be why he supports that incredibly unpopular decision that he can be talked down from.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 février 2010 - 10:45 .

[TripLight]

ejoslin wrote...

TripLight wrote...

Question about Taking Zev to Orzammar.

Who can I take with me that won't cancel out his dialogue? Or does he comment no matter what? I swear Leliana does a verbal ****block to him when I have them both with me.

His essential dialog is not blocked by anyone -- you'll get it when talking to Harrowmont's second.  His comment about the surface dwarves being the only ones left in 100 years, that really depends.  It can randomly be any character who comments at that point.

Edit: I would also suggest NOT taking Oghren at least through the Ortan Thaig (the one with Ruck) as if you end up doing the mercy killing, it's nice hearing ALL that Zevran has to say rather than having Oghren override a couple of those cutscenes.  Hearing the whole thing makes it impossible to be upset with him, whereas just hearing the little bit, it sounds pretty bad.

Addai67 wrote...

I know that Oghren will cut out some of his lines in Ruck's cave. This
is if you return twice with Zevran to Ruck's cave (be prepared for...
action). Wynne will, I believe, cut out his lines when you talk to
Filda. I haven't had anyone cut him out when speaking to Dulin
Ferender- pretty sure you're supposed to hear what he says there, if
you've got him along.

I never take Oghren with me till I get to Branka, then I am forced to by the game<_<. Thank you both for the advice, I'll be using these tips tonight in my playthrough.

[ejoslin]

ORZAMMAR SPOILERS -- don't read if you haven't done that quest line in its entirety!

Actually, more random Zevran thoughts about the Anvil of the Void. He sees, of course, that the dwarven race is dying out, and may comment on that. Everything he says and does there actually is to help the race continue. Zevran often shows suprising compassion, but it seems more directed at groups than at individuals. Given both of those, it would actually be surprising if he didn't support keeping the Anvil -- he sees the dwarves dying out because of the darkspawn, sees a way that would strengthen them immensely. After it being pointed out to him that the Anvil makes slaves, he then agrees that it would be better for the Anvil to be destroyed, but he still doesn't completely approve. Maybe because he sees that the cost of the freedom could very well be Orzammar.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 février 2010 - 10:54 .

[Addai]

@ejoslin: That makes sense. Does he actually say something there? I don't recall that he does, or rather in my games, Morrigan is overriding. She's the one I usually have to Persuade about the Anvil making slaves.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

@ejoslin: That makes sense. Does he actually say something there? I don't recall that he does, or rather in my games, Morrigan is overriding. She's the one I usually have to Persuade about the Anvil making slaves.

He does.  He says something about how peasants are exploited all the time, yet they don't burn farmland to stop that.  He goes on to say that it seems like a waste destroying the anvil, given what it could do (obviously paraphrased).

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 février 2010 - 11:10 .

[Addai]

Ah, drat it all- I am going to have to leave Morri at home next time. Pity that I usually depend on her so much.

[EccentricSage]

Response to spoiler below...



Uuuugh... I'm of the mind that the rights of individuals trumps any 'greater good' argument... But I can see why he'd have a jaded and pragmatic viewpoint since he learned to adapt to his own circumstances as a slave. but still... I'm glad I read that spoiler, because that's going to be a hard one for me. : (



IMO, the Dwarven caste system is what makes them week. Orzamar's continued existence should be trumped by the right of the people to survive, and make their own free choices in life. If worse comes to worse they should go topside. They are only as helpless in their fate as they have chosen to be. Using the Anvil would basically allow those who were born elite continue to live a life of comfortable apathy while those beneath them sacrifice themselves and their freedom to maintain the status quo. Absolutely unacseptable, and I wish the Crow's brainwashing didn't run so deep. ;_; (though I can have compassion for his view because of that)



You know, it kind of ties in with Zevran always being taught that he's an expendable commodity because he's a slave. I find it heart wrenching that this revelation shows he still thinks that way of others.



Gah. ;_;



BTW, as for the Leliana talk...



I loved her when I first got her, in the way you love a child. I had been spoiled about her past, but expected some really deep dialogue and for her to be really troubled by her past. But I just did her personal quest and was disapointed that even confronting Marjolain she sounded like some little Marry-Sue giving her little speech about not letting her hurt anyone anymore. Girl, you were an Assassin in your own right, and admitedly enjoyed it. Drop the innocent BS!!!!! Grrrr!!!!



It really ticks me off that the goody-goody characters in the game have issues with Zevran for being an Assassin, but with Leliana it's ok because she bothers everyone about the Maker constantly now, and talks like a 5 year old with a princess complex.



You know what, I've HAD deeper conversations with 5 year olds than I've had with Leliana. I think I'll kick her out now that her story is over.





I wish Izabella could have joined the party as the second rogue instead. She kicks ass and doesn't play the 'poor helpless little girl' card. I can RESPECT her. She'd be a much better lesbian love interest than the pathetic Chantry girl who pretends to talk to the Maker because she wants attention. lol Girls like Lel disgust me, deeply. She illustrates far too well the double standards I've seen play out way too often in real life and is the antithesis of what I strive to be as a woman...and bisexual one at that.



Once I realized what she is and the game she's playing, I saw Zevran's interactions with her in a whole new light right down to when I first met him and she recognized him as a Crow. I get the impression they've possibly crossed paths before and he doesn't approve of someone who's committed the same sins as him pretending like the Chantry cleanses you of what you are. I could be wrong. But I like to think it. Would be good in a fic. But he was the first to see through her little act and challenge it. Wish certain others in my party weren't so stupid.

[ejoslin]

*grin* ES, Zevran just never becomes a kitten hugger. He has much sympathy for slaves, though; especially elven slaves (heh, there's an incident you may see where he actually gets angry with the warden over this later in the game). But again, Zevran can be persuaded that the anvil should be destroyed.



The greater good . . . Zevran may point out that in 100 years the only dwarves left will be surface dwarves. The dwarves have been fighting a losing battle to the darkspawn for hundreds of years, and they're dying out. Couple this with 1 golem = 50 dwarves as far as fighting goes. Then add to it that there would be many volunteers. So for 100 dwarves, you'd end up with an army with the equivalent force of 5000 dwarves, and all those dwarves would be willing. This potentially could save the dwarves, and it definitely would save many, many more lives than it would cost. What makes it evil, really, is the potential for abuse, and it WOULD be abused.



I don't think Leliana and Zevran knew each other -- he said he was a crow, and she knew of the crows. BUT yes, I agree, much of his flirting with her is trying to poke holes in her professed beliefs -- my favorite line is when she tells Zevran they have a lot in common and he answers, "Other than our beauty and purity?" Heh, she doesn't fool him for one second. However, if you do the fourway, Zevran is NOT displeased at all that she's joining (calls her a minx and talks about her smile). I like Isabela too, actually; she's tough and does not hold a grudge.



Zevran is not given a pass, I don't think, because he challenges everyone, and is frankly unapologetic for who he is.

[TripLight]

ejoslin wrote...

*grin* ES, Zevran just never becomes a kitten hugger. He has much sympathy for slaves, though; especially elven slaves (heh, there's an incident you may see where he actually gets angry with the warden over this later in the game). But again, Zevran can be persuaded that the anvil should be destroyed.

 

Eh...how high a persuade check? Because at the moment I am locked with 21 Cunning and 2 Coercion, it was an accident! I'll respec later, I promise!

[Cuddlezarro]

The greater good . . . Zevran may point out that in 100 years the only dwarves left will be surface dwarves. The dwarves have been fighting a losing battle to the darkspawn for hundreds of years, and they're dying out. Couple this with 1 golem = 50 dwarves as far as fighting goes. Then add to it that there would be many volunteers. So for 100 dwarves, you'd end up with an army with the equivalent force of 5000 dwarves, and all those dwarves would be willing. This potentially could save the dwarves, and it definitely would save many, many more lives than it would cost. What makes it evil, really, is the potential for abuse, and it WOULD be abused.

its more like 1 golem=12 dwarves IIRC but thats still a big boon considering golems are supposed to be incredibly powerful and thats still 100 dwarves that are equivilent to 1200 dwarves in combat ontop of the fact they are harder to kill

and like you said Oghren actually points out there would be *many* volunteers...shame Branka is a loony toon but last I checked she aint immortal, plus if you side with Bhelen he kind of kicks the dwarven nobility in the nuts concerning their priverlages and the status quo as well but hes still a bastard as well (though his golem ending is alot better than Harrowmonts thats for sure)

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 23 février 2010 - 04:28 .

[EccentricSage]

ejoslin wrote...

*grin* ES, Zevran just never becomes a kitten hugger. He has much sympathy for slaves, though; especially elven slaves (heh, there's an incident you may see where he actually gets angry with the warden over this later in the game). But again, Zevran can be persuaded that the anvil should be destroyed.

Oh, I think he'd find a kindred spirit in cats.... They are proud killers who are masters of stealth as well.  Heehee... But I know what you meant.  I would have been pissed if they decided to have him do a complete 180 into some fluffball who suddenly thinks there's a perfect and just solution for every problem.  I hate that sort of thing.  I love Zevran's honesty and self acceptance.  He's beautiful.

I'm glad he's also persuadable.  I find it funny when people get mad at characters who disapprove a lot because they didn't reason with them.  Morrigan only gave me -3 at the Circle, and I could totally understand that, since I was asking her to risk her life for people she feels forfeit theirs.

The greater good . . . Zevran may point out that in 100 years the only dwarves left will be surface dwarves. The dwarves have been fighting a losing battle to the darkspawn for hundreds of years, and they're dying out. Couple this with 1 golem = 50 dwarves as far as fighting goes. Then add to it that there would be many volunteers. So for 100 dwarves, you'd end up with an army with the equivalent force of 5000 dwarves, and all those dwarves would be willing. This potentially could save the dwarves, and it definitely would save many, many more lives than it would cost. What makes it evil, really, is the potential for abuse, and it WOULD be abused.

See... I can actually see that.  That is a good point.  Besides the potential for abuse, what gives me pause is that these people aren't just going to be slaves for a lifetime... they will be prisoners for eternity.  They might never be set free by death.  Most people are very short sighted.  Given the cost, I wouldn't even be able to bring myself to let them willingly doom themselves for eternity like that.  Otherwise, I'd say make some golems, THEN destroy the anvil before it can be abused.  lol

I do love seeing Zevran's compassion.  Big time.  He's such a complex character.  I would point out, though, that in 100 years the Dwarves can learn to enjoy being topside.  lol  Realistically, life is about evolution.  If you can't adapt, you don't survive.  It would be a shame, for sure, but in the grand scheme of things, everyone and everything is subject to changing times.

I don't think Leliana and Zevran knew each other -- he said he was a crow, and she knew of the crows. BUT yes, I agree, much of his flirting with her is trying to poke holes in her professed beliefs -- my favorite line is when she tells Zevran they have a lot in common and he answers, "Other than our beauty and purity?" Heh, she doesn't fool him for one second. However, if you do the fourway, Zevran is NOT displeased at all that she's joining (calls her a minx and talks about her smile). I like Isabela too, actually; she's tough and does not hold a grudge.

Right, right, good point.  OK, I can't claim sleep as my excuse this time, so maybe it's not enough playthroughs.  lol  I am bested by your incredible memory ether way, though.  Seriously.

Heh!  XD  I also loved it when he kept trying to get her to tell him about her visions.  He probably doesn't dislike her, but then it takes a lot for him to dislike a person.  I honestly see a sense of comradery in some of his banters with various party members.  When he was telling Morrigan that she shouldn't become bitter and miss out on her youth, I thought that was so sweet.  The man gives the best advice, for sure, and seems way more genuine in his occasional acts of concern than Wynne.

Also, you know, I do find Leliana endearing during banter... it's just the shallowness and poor me aspect of her personal story that surprised me into disliking her, I guess you could say.

I'm not getting the fourway this playthrough, I don't think, but I'm sure Davend, my HN will make a mission of it.  He's as bad as Zev in regard to 'conquest', if not worse.  lol

Zevran is not given a pass, I don't think, because he challenges everyone, and is frankly unapologetic for who he is.

See, that's why it bothers me, though.  I guess it's only realistic, but it makes me like them a lot less to know that they would rather a comforting lie than deal with reality.  These reasons for not giveing him a pass are the exact same reasons my Dristen was so quick to, and why I love Zev so.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 23 février 2010 - 04:40 .

[ejoslin]

TripLight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

*grin* ES, Zevran just never becomes a kitten hugger. He has much sympathy for slaves, though; especially elven slaves (heh, there's an incident you may see where he actually gets angry with the warden over this later in the game). But again, Zevran can be persuaded that the anvil should be destroyed.

 

Eh...how high a persuade check? Because at the moment I am locked with 21 Cunning and 2 Coercion, it was an accident! I'll respec later, I promise!

I have no clue.  I always have high coercion, even if my cunning isn't high.  I'd actually be curious to hear what Zevran says if you fail the persuade check (it's probably an easy one, though).  But really, even when Zevran REALLY disapproves, it's at maximum for -5, and there's a gift there anyway.

Cuddlezarro wrote...

The greater good . . . Zevran may point out that in 100 years the only dwarves left will be surface dwarves. The dwarves have been fighting a losing battle to the darkspawn for hundreds of years, and they're dying out. Couple this with 1 golem = 50 dwarves as far as fighting goes. Then add to it that there would be many volunteers. So for 100 dwarves, you'd end up with an army with the equivalent force of 5000 dwarves, and all those dwarves would be willing. This potentially could save the dwarves, and it definitely would save many, many more lives than it would cost. What makes it evil, really, is the potential for abuse, and it WOULD be abused.

its more like 1 golem=12 dwarves IIRC but thats still a big boon considering golems are supposed to be incredibly powerful and thats still 100 dwarves that are equivilent to 1200 dwarves in combat ontop of the fact they are harder to kill

and like you said Oghren actually points out there would be *many* volunteers...shame Branka is a loony toon but last I checked she aint immortal, plus if you side with Bhelen he kind of kicks the dwarven nobility in the nuts concerning their priverlages and the status quo as well but hes still a bastard as well (though his golem ending is alot better than Harrowmonts thats for sure)

You could be right.  I thought it was 50, but even if it's 12, it can save many, many lives, perhaps the entire race.  Bhelen is ok if you save the anvil; he doesn't use it for his own political gains.  Harrowmont, however, does.  I usually destroy it, though. 

[Cuddlezarro]

Harrowmont+golem ending is easily the worst dwarf ending you can get



Bhelens a bastard no doubt about it but his ending doesnt end up starting a war with the surface

[ejoslin]

EccentricSage wrote...


I'm not getting the fourway this playthrough, I don't think, but I'm sure Davend, my HN will make a mission of it.  He's as bad as Zev in regard to 'conquest', if not worse.  lol

Sorry about the MASSIVE snippage.  I really do enjoying your take on things and the way you see the banter!  And you're right, with golems, they are slaves forever.  And they are sentient, which is awful.  Though Shale seems pretty happy with being a Golem, until, of course, Zevran challenges her on it  

I've done the fourway once.  Romancing Leliana, though . . .  eeeep.  I don't get it, but lots of guys love her so I suppose there's something there!

[Raiynsong]

I usually have coercion pretty high so I'm not a good judge but Zev didn't give me a hassle about the anvil. I mean, I'm glad always for his opinion whether I agree with him or not



I did RTO tonight with Alistair, my femwarden, Zev, and Morrigain. When you open the king's chest, Alistair talks about the documents, of course, but for the first time tonight I heard Zevran say something like "Oh, that's a sexy sword. I want it!" referring to Meric's sword. Of course I had to give it to him. I'm using Duncan's stuff cause it's sort of sentimental to me (I was really ****y to him in the alienage but kind of got a crush on him on the way to Ostagar. It's that panther-like walk of his....)



Also, tonight (was a good night ) Alistair asked me to bed ....finally..... what a shy boy. And afterwards, he asks "what about now" and instead of my usual answer (well, the answer when I want to keep him, anyway) I replied "well you're going to be king"

and his reply, which I guess I never caught before, was "well, maybe.... But not right now, anyway (or something like that). Anyway, it was probably the most cynical thing I've heard him say. Knowing how he dumps you later I'm wondering why the femwarden doesn't pick up on it earlier. Especially because she asked about herself being an elf twice. I think this is going to help my roleplay my breakup with him a bit better. She's been attracted to him but wondering all along how serious he was about her. Sure, he says I love you, but he acknolwedges that it's cause we're all caught up in this thing bigger than ourselves.... whereas Zevran is in for the long haul DESPITE this thing bigger than ourselves.

[Cuddlezarro]

I wonder if its possible to bind fade spirits to golems non sentient ones I mean and have them *not* go insane

I know if you destroy the anvil they do try binding spirits to golems(possibly demons?) and they go insane but the smiths that actually did that had no idea what they really where doing plus the anvil was pretty much broken when they tried doing it

whats to say...Branka as loony as she is could with some help from mages (possibly from the Orzammar circle of magi at that if you get that ending)end up getting the spirit golems to work

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 23 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[EccentricSage]

ejoslin wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...


I'm not getting the fourway this playthrough, I don't think, but I'm sure Davend, my HN will make a mission of it.  He's as bad as Zev in regard to 'conquest', if not worse.  lol

Sorry about the MASSIVE snippage.  I really do enjoying your take on things and the way you see the banter!  And you're right, with golems, they are slaves forever.  And they are sentient, which is awful.  Though Shale seems pretty happy with being a Golem, until, of course, Zevran challenges her on it  

I've done the fourway once.  Romancing Leliana, though . . .  eeeep.  I don't get it, but lots of guys love her so I suppose there's something there!

It's good to know you enjoy the convos.  XD  I love a good disagreement, which is part of why I am so in love with Zev's personality.  (I edited in about that on my previous post, but you are way too fast for me)

Yeah... just getting to know her as a FRIEND is throwing up red flags for me... I'm not looking forward to romancing her.  IRL I would not trust her.  In fact, in my experience girls like her will betray you the moment you inconvenience them.  It's the wannabe Mary-Sue type... The girls who fake being the trajick princess because they need to be important and people will do anything to help them.  Guys seem to go for the type, probably because society ingranes them with such an ideal view of women, then they turn bitter woman haters when every Mary-Sue they pick up turns out not to be what she seemed. 

Davend is just going to be nice to her and try to get into her panties.  When the drama starts, he's going to kick her to the curb.  I'm evil like that.  LOL

Modifié par EccentricSage, 23 février 2010 - 04:58 .

[EccentricSage]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I wonder if its possible to bind fade spirits to golems non sentient ones I mean and have them *not* go insane

I know if you destroy the anvil they do try binding spirits to golems(possibly demons?) and they go insane but the smiths that actually did that had no idea what they really where doing plus the anvil was pretty much broken when they tried doing it

whats to say...Branka as loony as she is could with some help from mages (possibly from the Orzammar circle of magi at that if you get that ending)end up getting the spirit golems to work

When you think about it, binding a fade spirit against it's will would be even more morraly aprehensible than binding a willing liveing person's spirit.

[Cuddlezarro]

EccentricSage wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I wonder if its possible to bind fade spirits to golems non sentient ones I mean and have them *not* go insane

I know if you destroy the anvil they do try binding spirits to golems(possibly demons?) and they go insane but the smiths that actually did that had no idea what they really where doing plus the anvil was pretty much broken when they tried doing it

whats to say...Branka as loony as she is could with some help from mages (possibly from the Orzammar circle of magi at that if you get that ending)end up getting the spirit golems to work

When you think about it, binding a fade spirit against it's will would be even more morraly aprehensible than binding a willing liveing person's spirit.

are you a vegetarian by any chance?

[ejoslin]

@ Raiynsong -- I love how the Alistair and Zevran romances are such opposites. One starts so deep and ends up, well, just not what it was. The other potentially starts shallow (though not necessarily) and ends up so deep that nothing else matters. I also think that Zevran viewed the warden for who she was, where Alistair put her on a bit of a pedestal. Zevran's eyes were definitely wide open, and Alistair's were purposely shut.



I do like the "after" talk you get if you've awoken Arl Eamon first as you get much more information than you do if you have the "after" talk before Alistair knows he's going to be put forth as king. I do think Alistair not breaking up with the Warden at that point was completely selfish of him. He does start to distance himself, but he can't bring himself to face the reality, even then. The warden CAN, however, face the reality as well -- she can bring up that they really don't have a future with him as king. She must know (unless she's a Cousland) that she can never marry him if he is king, and she has those dialog choices as well. So I can't blame Alistair at all, because they're both just trying to live for the moment without wanting to face the reality of the situation.



I was going to do a hate-Alistair on a Cousand to see if he'd marry her at 100 hostile, but I can't bring myself to do it. My last hate-Alistair game was so depressing! He's a fun companion to have as a friend. I may actually have to enable the console to see how it works out!

[EccentricSage]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I wonder if its possible to bind fade spirits to golems non sentient ones I mean and have them *not* go insane

I know if you destroy the anvil they do try binding spirits to golems(possibly demons?) and they go insane but the smiths that actually did that had no idea what they really where doing plus the anvil was pretty much broken when they tried doing it

whats to say...Branka as loony as she is could with some help from mages (possibly from the Orzammar circle of magi at that if you get that ending)end up getting the spirit golems to work

When you think about it, binding a fade spirit against it's will would be even more morraly aprehensible than binding a willing liveing person's spirit.

are you a vegetarian by any chance?

No.  Why?  If you are going to point out that killing an animal for food is against it's will, then you missunderstand my argument to begin with. 

[Cuddlezarro]

EccentricSage wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I wonder if its possible to bind fade spirits to golems non sentient ones I mean and have them *not* go insane

I know if you destroy the anvil they do try binding spirits to golems(possibly demons?) and they go insane but the smiths that actually did that had no idea what they really where doing plus the anvil was pretty much broken when they tried doing it

whats to say...Branka as loony as she is could with some help from mages (possibly from the Orzammar circle of magi at that if you get that ending)end up getting the spirit golems to work

When you think about it, binding a fade spirit against it's will would be even more morraly aprehensible than binding a willing liveing person's spirit.

are you a vegetarian by any chance?

No.  Why?  If you are going to point out that killing an animal for food is against it's will, then you missunderstand my argument to begin with. 

how is binding a nonsentiant spirit that cant even feel anything beyond possibly a single emotion to a hunk of stone more amoral than mass murdering animals (which are othen raised in ****** poor conditions) to eat

animals have feelings but the codex points out there are many spirits that are just puffs of a single emotions that cant even think (whisps are a perfect example)

theres a reason I pointed out non sentiant spirits not stuff like the valor spirits or Demons...but as we learn in the game nothing good can come from dealing with demons in any way (and Im betting the inerfnal golem in Awakening is a demon bound golem)

BTW no im not a vegetarian/vegan either before any one calls me one

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 23 février 2010 - 05:21 .

[ejoslin]

Kitten hugger?

[Cuddlezarro]

ejoslin wrote...

Kitten hugger?

Im a kitten hugger and proud of it...not that my cats a kitten any more (she was actually a stray kitten when my bosses wife found her abandoned in a graveyard) now shes fat as hell and bullys my dog about lulz

im like sten as the annoying french girl says about him "a big softie" atleast when it comes to most animals

also i got screenies of Zevrans "murder the mages" talk at the tower any one want me to post them~

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 23 février 2010 - 05:26 .

[Raiynsong]

oh please do! I really wish we could have an apostate mage origin. Maybe with Duncan rescuing me from the "Wrath of the Templars"... which would make early conversations with Alistair really interesting.



Someone somewhere wanted a Dalish mage origin which would also be good. The Circle is just so damned confining.