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[Addai]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

instead of imagining it why not read the screenshots of the conversation I posted in the Wynn hate topic thats the entire conversation right there and just insert your elf mage in place of my blood mage mage :3

Oh, I did.  I meant when I get to the end and have to listen to Wynne say how good and brave I am and how she wants to follow me...  So, do I suck it up and take her along to get the Zevran "tender gaze" dialogue and meet Aneirin?  Argh, I'm not sure it's worth it.

[Addai]

EccentricSage wrote...

Ooooh!  See, I didn't have him yet when I did the tower... I totally need a re-do. 

Yes, you do!  IMO a character romancing Zevran has to see his Fade dream, for one thing.  It's very revealing.  I wish you got to talk to him about it later.

[Cuddlezarro]

is recruiting Wynn in general ever worth it? (also you really should convince your husband to let you install the "mod" that gives you the blood mage talk, its really just a bug fix and affects nothing else in the game other allowing that dialogue to take place and 2 new options at Eamons call the landsmeet talk if you murdered the tower)

[Sresla]

Transcript Request

Does anyone know the disposition level Zevran needs (it's not love and since I always fully romance him in my games - sorry, I can't play it otherwise, not even to hear the other endings) to get the following quote from him in the epilogue, and what the Warden's conversation leading into it is (and do you need to pick 'Rebuild the Wardens' as the boon from the crown)?

"A Grey Warden? Me? Oh, no no no no. There are some bodily fluids even I won't touch."

Modifié par Sresla, 23 février 2010 - 08:09 .

[EccentricSage]

*snerk* XD Oh Zev....

[Sabriana]

I've been thinking about Wynne, and her nasty, nasty advice concerning the PC/Zevran relationship. Perhaps she's so po'd because it has become quite clear that the Warden is the one who Zevran trusts, and she is the one who gives him the opportunity to grow, not Wynne.

Wynne loves to see herself as the be-all, and know-all of all humanity. Only she can be a teacher, a redeemer, and only she can be a savior (with only a bit of 'help' from the warden). Now she sees someone else getting to Zevran, and helping him, despite her oh so wonderful advice and counseling attempts toward the assassin.

Wish you luck Sresla, I can't help you, none of my PCs can keep their hands of him either.

[ejoslin]

Sresla wrote...

Transcript Request

Does anyone know the disposition level Zevran needs (it's not love and since I always fully romance him in my games - sorry, I can't play it otherwise, not even to hear the other endings) to get the following quote from him in the epilogue, and what the Warden's conversation leading into it is (and do you need to pick 'Rebuild the Wardens' as the boon from the crown)?

"A Grey Warden? Me? Oh, no no no no. There are some bodily fluids even I won't touch."

That's a friendship dialog -- it would either be 91+ friendly or 100 friendly.  It's at the very end, post coronation, if you've chosen to rebuild the grey wardens. When he asks if you'd have him along, you can ask him if he wants to join.  That's when he says that.

Ugh, reread your question.  I can't give you an exact transcription, unfortunately.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 février 2010 - 12:30 .

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

I've been thinking about Wynne, and her nasty, nasty advice concerning the PC/Zevran relationship. Perhaps she's so po'd because it has become quite clear that the Warden is the one who Zevran trusts, and she is the one who gives him the opportunity to grow, not Wynne.

Wynne loves to see herself as the be-all, and know-all of all humanity. Only she can be a teacher, a redeemer, and only she can be a savior (with only a bit of 'help' from the warden). Now she sees someone else getting to Zevran, and helping him, despite her oh so wonderful advice and counseling attempts toward the assassin.

Wish you luck Sresla, I can't help you, none of my PCs can keep their hands of him either.

It's possible.  Wynne obviously does want to be his redeemer.  That's what makes their banter so interesting -- he had so much fun with her in them, even after awhile being the one to bring the subject up (that is  great many lives to save -- maybe I could do one or the other?) just to tease her a bit.  He's so completely unapologetic.  She gets so frustrated with him, though, when he refuses her counselling (MUST you be such a child? Are you incapable of having a single serious conversation?) as if she has the right to ask those questions of someone she barely knows.

Hah, he's so easy going.  

[ejoslin]

So I had decided on this HNF to not make it an Alistair hate game, went through most of his early dialogs, and changed my mind! I'm just worried I won't be able to get him to -100 hostile. I sacrificed Isolde and was awful, which earned me -51 disapproval, so I'm at -58 hostile. I'll murder knife Genetivi, side with Branka (initially, then talk her into killing herself). I can't think of any other approval hits, though.

*sigh* An Alistair hate game is just not the same without his hate speech.  And I'm worried that -80 hostile won't give the same results as -100 hostile.  And there's NO WAY I'm killing the elves.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 février 2010 - 12:51 .

[Sabriana]

He also has her figured out. This conversation is very telling imo:

*******Game Banter Spoilers Straight Ahead************************


 Zevran: So let us pretend that I do, indeed, believe that murder is wrong.

Wynne: (coldly) We are not having this conversation.

Zevran: Were I to believe such a thing, what would I do with it? Feeling guilt about things one can no longer change seems to very time-consuming with little hope for actual gain.

Wynne: But you could change what you do in the future.

 Zevran: (Sigh) What would that require, exactly? It seems to me that feeling guilty would take up a great deal of my time as it is.

Wynne: Perhaps you could save a life, instead? One for every life you have taken.

Zevran: That is a great many lives to save and feel guilty as well. Perhaps I could do one or the other?

Wynne: It is not a game, Zevran. You either know right from wrong or you do not.

Zevran: I... I am so confused. I think I may cry. May I lay my head in your bosom?

Wynne: (Cry of frustration) No! No! You may not!

Zevran: You are so very cruel. How is it that you do not feel guilty?

Wynne: I feel guilty for having ever spoken to you.



**************Fin****************************************

Who's the wise one here? He's right, he can't change the past, nor should he dwell on it. Aside from the fact that his past is all he was then. He didn't choose to become a Crow, after all.

I believe he's telling her that he is perfectly willing to save a life for each one he took, but that feeling guilty is a waste of time.
It's not a game? Who the hell said it was? Right from wrong? In Antiva the Crows are the powers to be, and he was a slave.  She is cruel, she should feel guilty about a lot of things, and Zevran lets her know in the 'Zevran way'.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...


Who's the wise one here? He's right, he can't change the past, nor should he dwell on it. Aside from the fact that his past is all he was then. He didn't choose to become a Crow, after all.

I believe he's telling her that he is perfectly willing to save a life for each one he took, but that feeling guilty is a waste of time.
It's not a game? Who the hell said it was? Right from wrong? In Antiva the Crows are the powers to be, and he was a slave.  She is cruel, she should feel guilty about a lot of things, and Zevran lets her know in the 'Zevran way'.

I agree with your assessment here.  I love how she gets so frustrated when he actually questions her about how useful her advice really is.  And it's interesting that he HAS potentially saved a lot of lives -- he talks the warden out of killing the dalish, the mages, etc.

I actually think Shale is the one he manages to get through to, though.  Perhaps Alistair as well -- I think those two end up friends.  But Shale -- his conversations with her are very special.  I mean, of course I love the squee one where he says it wouldn't be a terrible thing if the warden got pregnant, but the others I like even more.  I also like how the points he's trying to make with his companions happen over several dialogs. He gets them thinking first, before continuing on.

[Sabriana]

In the end, Zevran had a hand in saving all of Ferelden, and he's battling the archdemon with his Warden on the top of Fort Drakon. probably worried that she will die, just as the legends and myths foretell.

So he most definitely is more than even steven with the save one for every taken one.

I agree with the Alistair as friend assessment too. I think as soon as Alistair sees/feels that the Warden (all of mine romanced him at some point in the past, before Zevran entered the picture) is as happily in love with Zevran as he is with her, he will reassess Zevran and Zevran's motives. Alistair would be protective of his fellow warden and former lover, I am sure of that.

As for the 'baby' squee, that conversation is the reason my bestest girl ever is happily consenting to Zevran's enthusiastic endeavors to create a daughter/son with her. He shrugs the bad odds off, he doesn't believe they are unbeatable. After all, the odds of him being not broken beyond all repair and him being so happy now, were even worse

As for party conversation, I wonder what he brought away from his conversation with Sten. The one where Sten tells him about the Antivan Crow he met in his homeland. That last sentence is very thought-provoking:

Sten: "It was her ignorance we pitied, not her mistake. She believe we hoarded things we cared for as her own people do. We were sorry for her, that she thought only some people were important."

Modifié par Sabriana, 23 février 2010 - 02:06 .

[Raiynsong]

Next run when I'm a mage I'm going to have lots of shale + zevran time. I need to hear that pregnant dialog.

I am really wondering where Zevran got his incredible sense of honor. Maybe one of the ****s when he was young. He's so moving even at the beginning when he gives his oath. I find myself really believing him at that point, even though he's joking both before and after, the oath itself rings true. and other than being proud of his skills as an assassin, he's very moral about choices IN the future. he just doesn't feel guilty about the past. and really, if he asks forgiveness of the Maker every time, and believes in the Maker, then he shouldn't feel guilt because he knows he's forgiven.

I had a thought about the -3 when you bury Cailan. In this play through I had Alistair at adore and although we hadn't bedded yet we've kissed (I was waiting for him to ask me since early on he rejected me) Zevran is at interested because we had the "stare" dialog. So the whole RTO is where the warden and Alistair are sharing feelings about their time there, where they first met, the promise of the Grey Wardens as proud soldiers to defeat the blight, their friendship with Duncan (well in the warden's case raw sexual attraction, and in Alistair's case father figure --and probably latent homosexual feelings ). I'm wondering, then if the negative approval from Zevran isn't just a bit of jealousy about how close the warden and Alistair are during this time. A part of her past he can't ever see or be part of... Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it this go round.

/edit after reading about Sten's talk of the Crow.  Wow interesting... I need to spend more Sten time as well.  I really like his character a lot.   Mage will be lucky cause I can leave both Morrigan and Wynne in camp a lot of the time.

Modifié par Raiynsong, 23 février 2010 - 02:13 .

[ejoslin]

Raiynsong wrote...

Next run when I'm a mage I'm going to have lots of shale + zevran time. I need to hear that pregnant dialog.

I am really wondering where Zevran got his incredible sense of honor. Maybe one of the ****s when he was young. He's so moving even at the beginning when he gives his oath. I find myself really believing him at that point, even though he's joking both before and after, the oath itself rings true. and other than being proud of his skills as an assassin, he's very moral about choices IN the future. he just doesn't feel guilty about the past. and really, if he asks forgiveness of the Maker every time, and believes in the Maker, then he shouldn't feel guilt because he knows he's forgiven.

I had a thought about the -3 when you bury Cailan. In this play through I had Alistair at adore and although we hadn't bedded yet we've kissed (I was waiting for him to ask me since early on he rejected me) Zevran is at interested because we had the "stare" dialog. So the whole RTO is where the warden and Alistair are sharing feelings about their time there, where they first met, the promise of the Grey Wardens as proud soldiers to defeat the blight, their friendship with Duncan (well in the warden's case raw sexual attraction, and in Alistair's case father figure --and probably latent homosexual feelings ). I'm wondering,. then if the negative approval from Zevran isn't just a bit of jealousy about how close the warden and Alistair are during this time. A part of her past he can't ever see or be part of... Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it this go round.

Really, the approval hit from Zevran there makes no sense -- I believe there were different writers for RtO.  I'm actually doing RtO right now with the sole intent of ticking Alistair off, so I'll "let the darkspawn have their fun."  I hate the way RtO ends -- all three of the choices are often inappropriate for the Warden (why would a casteless dwarf feel that a nobleman deserves a proper pyre), and Zevran's reaction is completely out of character.

See, Zevran, even at the start, is very predictable with his approval and disapproval. He doesn't disapprove of attending the funeral at Redcliff, nor does he disapprove of either killing or saving Conner/Isolde or going to the circle.  Disposal of a body just seems like something he wouldn't care about one way or the other (like most things).  And most of the time, he can be talked down from his disapproval.  Exception I can think of offhand is letting Vaughn free -- but even THAT makes sense.

I can understand why an assassin would disapprove of the burning of the body, but given that the warden is acting all upset (which may or may not be in character), unless his approval is very low, I can't imagine him disapproving of something that is giving the warden comfort.  It just doesn't make sense.

Edit: And yes, Zevran's honor is something else.  Also his incredible sense of humor.  Both are apparent the first time you meet him.  I love how he won't let the warden send him on a suicide mission -- if he's going to be killed, it will be by the Warden's own hand (I'll at least have my death be an honorable one).  But I think his honor may be tied in somewhat with his religious instruction?  I'm not sure.  If you're a ****house boy but treated decently once a week at the chantry, it's possible some of their better messages got through.

Second edit: Another thing that is bugging me about RtO -- the warden is having flashbacks for things she couldn't possibly have seen.  Parts of the battle she was not involved with.  Ugh, I hate to say this, but the writing is actually pretty poor on the whole expansion.  The fights are fun, if a bit easy, though.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 février 2010 - 02:40 .

[Sabriana]

That -3 would only work in your scenario, Raiynsong. As a matter of fact, it makes sense in that case.

Unfortunately, your case and/or taking him very early on to Ostagar are the only scenarios that could work.

I just can't see that he would respect the darkspawn for their victory and even grant them the right to a trophy. He's been fighting them tooth and nail aside the Warden and his allies, and he knows what vile creatures they are. They are his enemies, he even had to fight a slew of them to get to that point.



And yes, definitely have a lot of Zevran/Shale conversations. They are really good, and some are really funny, especially the "helpless statuary" one.

[Raiynsong]

I never took Shale walking out of honnleath--usually cause i was continuing on to do something with my current party. but I did this time and got a real chuckle out of her stomping on the chicken and then shrugging.

I can't see Zevran siding with the darkspawn either. Perhaps if my scenario is wrong then it's just his annoyance at worrying about a dead body? But that doesn't seem right either, so I'm going with my character's gut on this one that it's an unconscious jealous reaction on Zevran's part.

I do agree the writing is different. Wrynn+Alistair is funny to a point but then quickly becomes annoying (particularly if you're in love with Alistair at the time) and there should have been a reaction when you find the joining chalice and Duncan's weapons. Alistair reacts to Cailan's armor but NOT Duncan's weapons---even when he says in main game he wishes to have had something of Duncan's. A couple of big missed opportunities for real feeling there. (Although my first playthrough I was pretty emotional even without all that.)

Edit:  I know Zevran is spiritual but I hate seeing him as a Chantry-influenced person. ( I was going to say Chantry puppet but I toned it down a bit lol).  The Chantry really annoys my current PC as do the templars and the Circle (well, except she kind of likes Irving).  

Modifié par Raiynsong, 23 février 2010 - 02:40 .

[ejoslin]

Raiynsong wrote...

I never took Shale walking out of honnleath--usually cause i was continuing on to do something with my current party. but I did this time and got a real chuckle out of her stomping on the chicken and then shrugging.

I can't see Zevran siding with the darkspawn either. Perhaps if my scenario is wrong then it's just his annoyance at worrying about a dead body? But that doesn't seem right either, so I'm going with my character's gut on this one that it's an unconscious jealous reaction on Zevran's part.

I do agree the writing is different. Wrynn+Alistair is funny to a point but then quickly becomes annoying (particularly if you're in love with Alistair at the time) and there should have been a reaction when you find the joining chalice and Duncan's weapons. Alistair reacts to Cailan's armor but NOT Duncan's weapons---even when he says in main game he wishes to have had something of Duncan's. A couple of big missed opportunities for real feeling there. (Although my first playthrough I was pretty emotional even without all that.)

Edit:  I know Zevran is spiritual but I hate seeing him as a Chantry-influenced person. ( I was going to say Chantry puppet but I toned it down a bit lol).  The Chantry really annoys my current PC as do the templars and the Circle (well, except she kind of likes Irving).  

Yeh, the problem is, Zev disapproves no matter what the relationship is and what the gender of the warden is.  He's not going to disapprove of my warden's decision, but it is SO horribly out of character for her as well (I am trying to get Alistair to 100 hostile to see if he will marry someone he hates).

Ooooh, and I did not mean to say that Zevran was "Chantry infused."  Just it could be a bit of that influence there -- I hate the chantry as well, but there's got to be SOME good there.  He does talk about confessing his sins whenever he gets the chance.

Edit: Ok, Zevran disapproves of anything but leaving the body where it is, which he approves of +2.  That makes NO sense at all.  He is helping FIGHT the darkspawn, why would he want to boost their morale?  I swear.  But at least I got -8 from Alistair and am now at -77 hostile.  I may be able to get him to -100 yet.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 février 2010 - 02:52 .

[Sabriana]

He is actually pro-mage, which makes him anti-templar in the Tower quest.

[jenovan]

Raiynsong wrote...

I never took Shale walking out of honnleath--usually cause i was continuing on to do something with my current party. but I did this time and got a real chuckle out of her stomping on the chicken and then shrugging.

I can't see Zevran siding with the darkspawn either. Perhaps if my scenario is wrong then it's just his annoyance at worrying about a dead body? But that doesn't seem right either, so I'm going with my character's gut on this one that it's an unconscious jealous reaction on Zevran's part.

I do agree the writing is different. Wrynn+Alistair is funny to a point but then quickly becomes annoying (particularly if you're in love with Alistair at the time) and there should have been a reaction when you find the joining chalice and Duncan's weapons. Alistair reacts to Cailan's armor but NOT Duncan's weapons---even when he says in main game he wishes to have had something of Duncan's. A couple of big missed opportunities for real feeling there. (Although my first playthrough I was pretty emotional even without all that.)

Edit:  I know Zevran is spiritual but I hate seeing him as a Chantry-influenced person. ( I was going to say Chantry puppet but I toned it down a bit lol).  The Chantry really annoys my current PC as do the templars and the Circle (well, except she kind of likes Irving).  

Heh, the bit with the chicken -- pure (gory) comedy gold. XD
Both of the DLC seem to miss some great fodder for reaction -- hello, Avernus' research?!    But yeah... the lack of Alistair commentary on Duncan's weapons, the Alistair/Wynne banter (... she's judging the PC for having fun sexytimes?), and of course the Zevran approval hit... it all gets a big "what's up with that". :/

At least being sad at seeing Cailan was more or less in character for my elf -- he's an empathetic little thing.  It's going to seem weird with my mage...


On another topic, but I guess sort of related to party banter... XD  Which characters will eventually talk to you about your romantic interest (I'm thinking the romance must be at Love or Adore)?  So far I've gotten chats about Zevran from Wynne (her apology, of course), Leliana, and Morrigan (looool.. that one was amusing).  And this is with a male PC. ;D  Do any of the men ever comment, or do they not want to gossip? ;P  (I know Alistair has that one bit in his gossip talk, but that's pretty early on...)

Modifié par jenovan, 23 février 2010 - 02:53 .

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

On another topic, but I guess sort of related to party banter... XD  Which characters will eventually talk to you about your romantic interest (I'm thinking the romance must be at Love or Adore)?  So far I've gotten chats about Zevran from Wynne (her apology, of course), Leliana, and Morrigan (looool.. that one was amusing).  And this is with a male PC. ;D  Do any of the men ever comment, or do they not want to gossip? ;P  (I know Alistair has that one bit in his gossip talk, but that's pretty early on...)

Hmmmm, Alistair only in the "juicy gossip" conversation or when making the warden choose.  Females also get Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne and they're probably all very similar to the male conversations.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 février 2010 - 02:52 .

[Sabriana]

@ Jenovan

Leliana, Wynne (bleh), and Morrigan also comment on the femWarden romance. Alistair has a dialogue with Leliana about Zevran and why would a woman go for a guy like that, etc.

Shale will ask the 'painted elf' about his relationship with the femPC, as will Oghren.

The only ones who don't (in my play-throughs) are my dog and Sten.

[jenovan]

Thanks, guys!

I'm going to have to do a little party shuffling to hear some of the banter. (I wonder if Alistair and Leliana have that talk about a male PC.. hah XD) I know both the Shale and Oghren banters still apply to a man... hmm.



I guess it's not surprising Sten doesn't comment. *snerk* I wonder if Loghain would, but I reaaaally doubt it. ;D (He's been a pleasant surprise to talk with, though!)

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

Thanks, guys!
I'm going to have to do a little party shuffling to hear some of the banter. (I wonder if Alistair and Leliana have that talk about a male PC.. hah XD) I know both the Shale and Oghren banters still apply to a man... hmm.

I guess it's not surprising Sten doesn't comment. *snerk* I wonder if Loghain would, but I reaaaally doubt it. ;D (He's been a pleasant surprise to talk with, though!)

Loghain does not, but his banter with Zevran is SO funny!

[Sabriana]

Yeah, that Alistair/Leliana conversation is interesting. Except for one thing, in it Alistair states that Zevran tried to kill them 'more than once'. I don't understand that statement at all.



I hope that wasn't too spoilerish, Jenovan. That snippet above isn't even 1/4 of the whole sentence



Btw, the Loghain/Zevran talk is still the funniest one around. I still laugh when I hear it.

[ejoslin]

Ok, I just did the ultimatum conversation with Leliana being the love interest (ok, I lead her on this time). It's interesting that Zevran, while he sounds happy that he was picked, doesn't sound nearly as happy or relieved (still happy and relieved, though). I wonder if it's because if you choose Leliana, it implies you prefer women and therefore is not personal, whereas if you choose Alistair, it shows you prefer another man to him.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 février 2010 - 03:18 .