35177 réponses à ce sujet

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

His line says "Yes Ma'am, but I should warn you that I don't succumb to interrogation even from attractive women such as yourself.  More drastic measures may be called for."  Or something like that..

So they're very close.

Ahh, a tad bit different then, but in a similar vein. X3  Interesting what those subtle differences might say.  Zev's full reply there (to the male PC) is: "Why, yes ser! I should warn you, however, that I've  never been known to succumb to an interrogation.  You may just have to beat it out of me. Creatively." :innocent:

Sylph_14 wrote...
"Hand-to-hand combat, no armor, no clothing... wearing nothing but our sweat."
I totally had a giggle-fit hearing that =D

Seriously.   I can't imagine someone pulling that off without that accent!

Modifié par jenovan, 06 janvier 2010 - 01:43 .

[frostajulie]

Auridesion wrote...

CBGB wrote...

I'm a writer, and I've misread him. I missed an appeal Zevran must have, and I'd like to understand it better. What makes him click with you, if he does?

This is an awesome question.  I think I can keep my answer fairly short.  Personally, I'm not superswept away by Zevran or anything, but here's a concise list of why women would want him (from a fellow writer's perspective, and from a female's):

1.  He's a bad boy.  Taboo? Definitely.  (But none the less, true.)  For the women that don't normally go for the bad guy... well, it is an RPG scenario where it feels safer to allow yourself the chance of fall for the kind of guy you would normally avoid in real life.  There's just something hot about someone who bends/breaks the rules (or just makes up their own!).

2.  Every woman who falls for a ****ty guy like our fictional friend Zev, usually has a vanity complex -- this varries from the self-conscious-and-wants-to-feel-wanted all the way to the I'm-super-perfect-and-everyone-should-love-me.  Secretly, (or not so secretly) regardless of whether or not they are falling for him, they want to suceed at being the one to turn him around from his ****ty ways.  To make a man who doesn't fall in love fall in love with you... that's winning a gold medal in the Girl World Olympics.

Although I probably sound really harsh towards my own gender, the truth is the truth.  Even if it's just a barely audible whisper of desire in the backs of our minds, I don't think any self-aware woman could deny feeling what I've described above at some point in their lives (or wildest fantasies).

I have to completely disagree.  But then again Zev pretty much swept me away from the get go after I took my moonsruck eyes off of AListair.

As a female here is my divergent perspective

1. Zev is broken, completely and utterly broken, so broken that in his first interaction he reveals his shatterred soul and then tells you not to feel sorry for him.  AS IF! He may have just tried to kill me but come on my PC was ready to take him in her arms and promise to keep all the world of bad away from him for the rest of his life.  He stirs all kind of warm nurturing feelings.  I don't want to change him so much as heal him.  There is a line where I can ask him if he has ever known joy and I always choose that line.  When I offer him the gloves his tone of voice is suspicious, uncomfortable, surprised.  It is my favorite gift in the game because I just showed him that he was not nothing.  At least not to me. It is like his life has always been the suck and I get the joy of playing a sword wielding spell throwing Santa claus to his everyday.

2. Zev although cautious is relentless about letting the PC know he finds her attractive and wants her in his bed.  That is a constant high, afterall Zev is worldly and well trained in the sexual arts, to know that he finds your character attractive holds a powerful appeal.

3  His growth as a character as you get to know him better he goes from hilarious, to adorable, to sexy, to utterly and completely romantic.


I don't think he is a bad boy so much as a bad boy wannabe.  I think anyone who has known pain, any kind of emotional pain, heartbreak, despair, abandonment, etc.  they would just see in Zev a kindred spirit and for my own part I want to lift him up away from his pain and show him joy and meaningful love, even if it is only friendship on the part of my lesbian Dwarf Princess Marzipan.

[Namirsolo]

Sylph_14 wrote...

jenovan wrote...

Zevran's rules of engagement, however, are brilliant. XD

"Hand-to-hand combat, no armor, no clothing... wearing nothing but our sweat."

I totally had a giggle-fit hearing that =D

That's the line I was referring to as my second favorite. The way he says it is even better!

[Sylph_14]

Some of my favorite lines are the commentary he gives in Haven.



"Just once I'd like to walk into one of these places and discover a lively dance, or a drinking festival. Or an orgy. But alas, no."

[ejoslin]

I like it when he tells the archdemon, "I remember my first battle!"

Edit: And yes, I know he says it in all battles.  I just find it incredibly funny when it's directed at the archdemon!

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 janvier 2010 - 03:52 .

[Creature 1]

My favorite is "We are ridiculously awesome!" I don't hear it often enough!

[Antikristine]

Auridesion wrote...

CBGB wrote...

I'm a writer, and I've misread him. I missed an appeal Zevran must have, and I'd like to understand it better. What makes him click with you, if he does?

This is an awesome question.  I think I can keep my answer fairly short.  Personally, I'm not superswept away by Zevran or anything, but here's a concise list of why women would want him (from a fellow writer's perspective, and from a female's):

1.  He's a bad boy.  Taboo? Definitely.  (But none the less, true.)  For the women that don't normally go for the bad guy... well, it is an RPG scenario where it feels safer to allow yourself the chance of fall for the kind of guy you would normally avoid in real life.  There's just something hot about someone who bends/breaks the rules (or just makes up their own!).

2.  Every woman who falls for a ****ty guy like our fictional friend Zev, usually has a vanity complex -- this varries from the self-conscious-and-wants-to-feel-wanted all the way to the I'm-super-perfect-and-everyone-should-love-me.  Secretly, (or not so secretly) regardless of whether or not they are falling for him, they want to suceed at being the one to turn him around from his ****ty ways.  To make a man who doesn't fall in love fall in love with you... that's winning a gold medal in the Girl World Olympics.

Although I probably sound really harsh towards my own gender, the truth is the truth.  Even if it's just a barely audible whisper of desire in the backs of our minds, I don't think any self-aware woman could deny feeling what I've described above at some point in their lives (or wildest fantasies).

As frostajulie, I completely disagree with you, but for different reasons than frostajulie.

Zevran isn't really a bad boy. My interpretation of bad boys is not that they have a liberal attitude towards sex, but that you can't trust them and that they might be cheating on you. Zevran's not like that at all. You can completely trust him - even before he commits to you romantically - and I don't get the impression he will be the cheating kind once realizes he has strong feelings for the PC. I actually think Zevran is an honest guy, but with emotional issues related to his past.

Also, he seems sleazy at first, he tells you that if you want him, he's available for sex any time. And if you don't develop the relationship with him (that is, increases his approval score), he will stay that way. But if you do actually romance him, get him to adore you and further, his emotions - and arguably also his personality - changes a lot.

When I romanced him in my second playthrough I wanted to try the "alternative to Alistair", as it were. I didn't expect Zevran to be anything else than he first appears to be - a sleazy guy only interested in sex. And my PC wasn't really interested in anything more either. However, as the relationship developed, he turned out to be someone completely different from the sleazy guy you pick up after the assassination attempt, and that made me find the character interesting.

So I think you're wrong when you blame Zevran's appeal on his bad boy attitude. He's not a real bad boy, and those who initially are attracted to his sleazy behaviour, will realize he's not that kind of guy.

[ryokoryoko]

Zevran fulfills female fantasy of changing-a-man. He's only appealing in a game, as you can see the approval (+/-) floating around. In real life, just how long would you stick with a man that hits on everything that moves?

[nos_astra]

Antikristine wrote...
Zevran isn't really a bad boy.

A common stereotypical belief amongst men is that women will rather fall for the bad guy believing that their love will make them heal and turn out the secret inner good guy. Stuck with an on/off relationsship or worse for years.

I tried to romance Zev but still find it really hard to pick the right answers to get it started. He's just not my type I guess. In real life I went for the good guy choice - the one that is believed to end up at the friendly track.

But I like Zevran a lot and he'd be a good match for a badass elven girl. :-)

Modifié par klarabella, 06 janvier 2010 - 09:48 .

[Sabriana]

Zevran has zero bad boy appeal. The bad boy would be someone like Bishop for example, someone utterly selfish, untrustworthy, and generally carrying a bad attitude. That's not Zevran. Even before any kind of romance/friendship, if treated well he reveals a lot of inner pain and suffering. He also is loyal as soon as he trusts the player, be it a friend or a romance. Heck, as soon as he is assured that the PC will be honest, and will help him get away from his former life, he's the most loyal companion of the bunch (besides my dog).

If there has to be any generalized label be slapped on him, it would be the 'wounded pup' appeal. Yes, he does like sex, but so do many people. He reveals his true self soon enough unlike the true 'bad boy' such as Bishop.

I didn't take literature and writing as a major at university, but I find it odd that a writer would make such a generalized statement that is based on cliche. Sexuality being a taboo must really color and distort people's view on just about everything. I never knew that, because it isn't taboo here.

Because if properly researched it will be known quite quickly that Zevran hides behind the sexual predator image for his own reasons. Unlike true bad boys, who usually are broken beyond repair.

[nos_astra]

Sabriana wrote...
Unlike true bad boys, who usually are broken beyond repair.

In real life Zevran would be broken beyond repair. Lucky PC that her world isn't real life. ;-)

Modifié par klarabella, 06 janvier 2010 - 09:50 .

[Sabriana]

Not necessarily, Klarabella, but the odds are in favor of that. A child of 7 can easily be so utterly shattered that there is nothing that can be done. However, there are the very few that can be healed, and most of those few can only be healed to a certain extend. Aside from that, it takes a long, long time to help those that were horribly abused from early childhood on.

Other than that: Yeah, lucky PC

[ejoslin]

I think THAT is the appeal of Zevran, the fact that he could survive what would have destroyed most people, and not only survived, but manages to enjoy life to its fullest and make the most of everything he does have and keep a fantastic sense of humor to boot. Bad boy? No interest. Fixing someone? No way! Being someone's redemption? Forget it. What I find appealing about Zevran is his strength and amazing lack of bitterness.

Edit: And you KNOW what Zevran's response would be to the analysis of the poster who thinks she has all women pegged -- "You are EXACTLY right!"  Hahahaha, but I don't think she'd know enough to call whoever said that a child :innocent:

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 janvier 2010 - 11:56 .

[Sabriana]

Indeed. The "and yet, you are oddly cheerful" PC line tells you a lot.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Indeed. The "and yet, you are oddly cheerful" PC line tells you a lot.

Absolutely.  As you listen to his horrific stories that he tells with nothing but honesty, not making excuses for his actions, being able to joke about things that would have Alistair dissolving into tears forever, and still seeing beyond himself from almost the start and seeing the PC's own pain is something amazing.

If someone thinks that the appeal of Zevran is because he's a bad boy or because women want to "fix" him or make the stone cold killer melt, they either haven't explored the character much, or chose to keep only looking at the surface.  He is the one character that comes off as the PC's equal instead of subordinate.  Even his personal quest is not done as a favor (as the rest of the personal quests are), but his gratitude afterwards is matched only by Sten's.  And the interesting thing about that is the PC did nothing, really; Zevran's quest was about the choices he made and the changes to himself.

I think I'm rambling now!

[LordBegrezen]

I Myself find Zevran to be very appealing. I just don't understand why everyone seems to think he needs healing or should be "repaired".

I thought the most appealing thing about him was his brokenness, and I didn't want to change that at all. Then again, that is just how I am. Couldn't imagine to be with someone who his NOT emotionally damaged.

Actually that is why he is the only one in the game I would romance in real life. :-)

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
What I find appealing about Zevran is his strength and amazing lack of bitterness.

So, you're looking for perfection. The one guy that provides a flawless relationsship.

That'd be why I like to keep Zevran as a good friend. Romancing him seems to make him pretty Mary Sue-ish (in terms of the relationship, no obstacles to overcome, his past has little effect, just happiness and flowers). That'd be not appealing to me at all.

[Creature 1]

klarabella wrote...
That'd be why I like to keep Zevran as a good friend. Romancing him seems to make him pretty Mary Sue-ish (in terms of the relationship, no obstacles to overcome, his past has little effect, just happiness and flowers). That'd be not appealing to me at all.

Are you looking to solve all of his issues with his past in the span of 30 minutes and a few ad breaks?  That's all there's time for in the game, and that to me would be even worse. 

To me the relationships in the game (not just romantic) are just scaffolds there to build an outline.  You get only a handful of conversations with each character, and no input from them at all at key points in the game.  I do not think at all that Zevran's romance is all kittens and flowers, but writing it more realistically would require a novel.  Since Dragon Age is not that kind of vehicle, what we will get will be a sketch, with many features just suggested by a few lines.  

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
What I find appealing about Zevran is his strength and amazing lack of bitterness.

So, you're looking for perfection. The one guy that provides a flawless relationsship.

That'd be why I like to keep Zevran as a good friend. Romancing him seems to make him pretty Mary Sue-ish (in terms of the relationship, no obstacles to overcome, his past has little effect, just happiness and flowers). That'd be not appealing to me at all.

*grin* I don't think it makes him Mary Sue-ish.  I'm actually not sure what you're saying here (sorry).  In a fictional relationship where there is a major crisis going on, it's nice not having to be taking care of at least one companion's emotional garbage.  If you're a female PC, your other two choices you actually do have to fix by either hardening them or helping them come to terms with their softer side (both have positives and negatives). They also rarely offer any opinions and definitely never take over the lead. I've seen people refer to Zevran as being slavishly devoted, but I'd say he is the one of the three that is the least slavish.  I see him as the closest to the PC's equal.

As far as his past having little effect on the relationship, again, I'm not sure what you mean.  It shaped him, it's also the reason he's in the party, and he has his own demons, but him coming to terms with himself hasn't much to do with whether he and the PC are romantically involved so much as his finally being able to trust someone. And why is looking towards the future instead of dwelling in the past a bad thing?

I guess I just am not sure of the point you're trying to make here.  If you don't find him an appealing character, that's fine.  I don't find Alistair appealing because of his weakness; lots of women love him, though, for his honor, sense of duty, romanticism, and all the things that tie into it.  


You'll never get Zevran to say, "I love you," but his actions say it louder than the words ever could.  Is it a flawless relationship?  You don't get that information.  But I would think it's pretty desirable to build a relationship around love and respect rather than idealization.  However, this is a video game.  And of the three romantic choices given, I definitely find Zevran the most appealing.  

[Antikristine]

ejoslin wrote...
If someone thinks that the appeal of Zevran is because he's a bad boy or because women want to "fix" him or make the stone cold killer melt, they either haven't explored the character much, or chose to keep only looking at the surface.  He is the one character that comes off as the PC's equal instead of subordinate.  Even his personal quest is not done as a favor (as the rest of the personal quests are), but his gratitude afterwards is matched only by Sten's.  And the interesting thing about that is the PC did nothing, really; Zevran's quest was about the choices he made and the changes to himself.
I think I'm rambling now!

I agree. He appears as your equal in all respects, he treats you with honesty and maturity. I also second what you say about his quest; it's not a thing you do for him, it is scripted to appear at a specific point in the game, and in that situation, you don't have much power to affect Zevran. He makes the decision himself, based on how warmly he has been welcomed by the PC earlier.

LordBegrezen wrote...
I Myself find Zevran to be very appealing. I just don't understand why everyone seems to think he needs healing or should be "repaired".
I thought the most appealing thing about him was his brokenness, and I didn't want to change that at all. Then again, that is just how I am. Couldn't imagine to be with someone who his NOT emotionally damaged. Actually that is why he is the only one in the game I would romance in real life. :-)

I also agree with this. He has indeed issues, but I wouldn't call him broken. He doesn't need to be "repaired", what he needs is the opportunity to have a better life and someone who cares for him as his equal.

Creature 1 wrote...
Are you looking to solve all of his issues with his past in the span of 30 minutes and a few ad breaks?  That's all there's time for in the game, and that to me would be even worse. 
To me the relationships in the game (not just romantic) are just scaffolds there to build an outline.  You get only a
handful of conversations with each character, and no input from them at all at key points in the game.  I do not think at all that Zevran's romance is all kittens and flowers, but writing it more realistically would require a novel.  Since Dragon Age is not that kind of vehicle, what we will get will be a sketch, with many features just suggested by a few lines.  

I don't agree here.  I truly think the characters in this game are some of the well-written that have been encountered in commercial digital games, and although there definitely could have been more conversations, this is a design decision. Having too much of it would possibly mean less
of something else, and then it would be a completely different.

In my view, your critique is more fitting for Mass Effect. I'm playing the game again these days to remember what it
is about before the sequel is released, and what surprises me is that the romancable characters in that game talk to the PC about how they've developed warm feelings for the PC after we had 2 private conversations. Well, why do they say that when I don't even know the characters? So compared to that, DA:O's characters are so much more than scaffolds; they are truly developed characters.

Edit: strange formatting

Modifié par Antikristine, 06 janvier 2010 - 01:06 .

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
Unlike true bad boys, who usually are broken beyond repair.

In real life Zevran would be broken beyond repair. Lucky PC that her world isn't real life. ;-)

That I think is the point of Zevran, actually. There are very, very few people who would not be broken by the life he lead -- but there are a few with the inner strength to not only survive, but rise above it, and he's one of those rare people.

[Sabriana]

I'm starting to think that a lot of people playing this game and hating on Zevran keep forgetting that he was sold at age 7 to a very brutal, self-serving organisation. Technically, he's a slave until he finds the PC.

[mousestalker]

Sabriana wrote...

I'm starting to think that a lot of people playing this game and hating on Zevran keep forgetting that he was sold at age 7 to a very brutal, self-serving organisation. Technically, he's a slave until he finds the PC.

This.

It's funny that the characters I first liked in the game (Alistair and Lelianna) have switched places with the characters I liked least (Zevran and Sten) in my affections. The first two are pretty, but fairly weak. Zevran has endured much. It has made him complex and guarded, but it hasn't broken him. Gaining his loyalty is hard, but once gained he is true. Alistair pledges his loyalty quickly, he's desperate for acceptance. But he throws it away just as easily.

[jenovan]

Oooh, now this is getting interesting...

frostajulie wrote...
1. Zev is broken, completely and utterly broken, so broken that in his first interaction he reveals his shatterred soul and then tells you not to feel sorry for him.  AS IF! He may have just tried to kill me but come on my PC was ready to take him in her arms and promise to keep all the world of bad away from him for the rest of his life.  He stirs all kind of warm nurturing feelings.  I don't want to change him so much as heal him.  There is a line where I can ask him if he has ever known joy and I always choose that line.  When I offer him the gloves his tone of voice is suspicious, uncomfortable, surprised.  It is my favorite gift in the game because I just showed him that he was not nothing.  At least not to me. It is like his life has always been the suck and I get the joy of playing a sword wielding spell throwing Santa claus to his everyday.

That's more or less how I feel, too... Not so much wanting to change him as wanting to give him an opportunity to, perhaps to use his own words, find more joy than he's managed to find so far.   When he says he's never been given a gift before... awww, geez.

LordBegrezen wrote...
 Couldn't imagine to be with someone who his NOT emotionally damaged.

I always seem to end up in those situations IRL as well...   Just my personality I guess. 

Creature 1 wrote...
To me the relationships in the game (not just romantic) are just scaffolds there to build an outline.  You get only a handful of conversations with each character, and no input from them at all at key points in the game.  I do not think at all that Zevran's romance is all kittens and flowers, but writing it more realistically would require a novel.  Since Dragon Age is not that kind of vehicle, what we will get will be a sketch, with many features just suggested by a few lines.  

And I was *literally* just thinking this!  I couldn't have said it any better.  Being someone who enjoys extrapolating things (read: relationships) from the generally sparse information revealed in games, Zevran appeals (as the title of the thread asks) to me greatly.  What might be happening between all those conversations in game?   The characters are well-written, as Antikristine says, but I think there are still a lot of gaps that can be filled in by the player's imagination.  The storyline takes place over a year, at least, after all -- the characters have got to be doing something between those pivotal conversations we have in-game.  Not to say that there should have been more convos in game -- it's amazing to have as many as there are! -- but I feel that if you really want to talk about the depth of a relationship, what you get in game are kind of... progress markers, rather than the be-all, end-all of it.

I hope any of that made sense... off to find some coffee.

[Antikristine]

jenovan wrote...
And I was *literally* just thinking this!  I couldn't have said it any better.  Being someone who enjoys extrapolating things (read: relationships) from the generally sparse information revealed in games, Zevran appeals (as the title of the thread asks) to me greatly.  What might be happening between all those conversations in game?   The characters are well-written, as Antikristine says, but I think there are still a lot of gaps that can be filled in by the player's imagination.  The storyline takes place over a year, at least, after all -- the characters have got to be doing something between those pivotal conversations we have in-game.  Not to say that there should have been more convos in game -- it's amazing to have as many as there are! -- but I feel that if you really want to talk about the depth of a relationship, what you get in game are kind of... progress markers, rather than the be-all, end-all of it.

Well, I agree with your observations about how relationships develop through progress makers in games, and that there are a lot of gaps to fill. Adding a well-presented narrative to a game is one of the great challenges in game design, but I must admit that DA:O is a very good attempt at it. Not that the overall plot of the game is anything special, but what is the beauty of the game is how the designers by the use of very simple techniques have created a fictional universe that feels so engaging. The most powerful technique is through character depth and development, and how this is nicely integrated into game progression.

In this respect, Alistair and Morrigan are the best characters, since they tie into the game progression all the way from beginning to end, but another benefit of using the technique of depth/development of character is that different players will have very different interpretations of the characters, because not all players get to know all characters equally well. This explains why the people who HAVE followed Zevran's romance all to the end find him romantically appealing and to be an individual of more depth than we are led to believe once we meet him.

But this is also where the gap-filling becomes relevant. Even ejoslin who is on her 9th playthrough must fill in gaps, because even though she has exhausted all possible Zevran conversations, the game doesn't tell the whole story. This is not, however, only because it is a game, with its limitations in terms of design. All narratives demand that the readers/viewers fill in gaps as they follow the story. That games may have greater gaps to fill, may be an obstacle in most games, but I think that Bioware has done a great job at balancing this. It IS a game, after all, and having the player play through every night at camp while the companions are eating or playing cards or whatever, would be tiresome.