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[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So, have any of your characters decided to spare Loghain because- in a perverse way- he's the one that brought Zevran to you? I had the crazy idea that my current one might. There would be the practical reason of wanting another Warden, but that thought might play into it.

Hah, I sure have. In fact, that has always been one of the reasons for sparing him when I do so -- a life for a life so to speak..  He gave my warden her chance at happiness, inadvertently, so he deserved a chance at redemption.  And that is so sappy sounding, but it's fun.

OTOH, Loghain is no better than that Crow master- he could care less about Zevran's life or yours.  I was thinking about the confusion in Zevran's face when Loghain will not even look at him and dismisses him with disgust.  I bet that is the source of the comment that Fereldans don't know the difference between an assassin and a common killer.  It must also have been a painful reminder of his recent lesson that he is nothing to anyone.  In Ferelden, he is not even valued as he would have been at home.

It must be then all the more painful if the Warden takes the same attitude, i.e. that he's a common criminal.  Not that he doesn't realize he is a murderer (the "history with women" conversation is sooo revealing in this respect).  Ultimately I think it is also good for him to realize that his fighting skills can be used for other things.  He has to experience culture shock to realize that he is a warrior, not just a hired knife.  No wonder that he is so willing to throw in with the Grey Wardens, which is an order who actually do appreciate his skills and operate independently.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

It is totally worth playing a dwarf and waiting for the invitation, just for that kiss.

LOL You're like a dwarf pimp, ejoslin. 

I stayed up way too late last night making a casteless dwarf character.  I might actually play this one.  My previous experiment with a dwarf noble didn't go well, but she was a S&S warrior and that is so boring that I think it added to my grief.  This one I made a DW rogue.  I just don't like to play melee any other way.  I'm thinking of a dual-axe build.  It's more of a str/dex thing which will mean we'll be less efficient than if she were a cunning rogue, but it just seems fitting for a dwarf and will give me a little variety.

She's pretty... I don't like the height or the chubby bum, especially in light armor, but I think I can make myself not look.  LOL  I almost think the brand makes her more attractive- I bet Zevran would agree.  They'll have much more of a "click" than an Aeducan would, I think, even though in his own way Zevran was a part of Antivan upper society.

[Sabriana]

Hmm, I don't think he was part of upper society. He was still a slave, but he was on his way up. I mean, the way Ignacio talks to him, phew. Perhaps, in due time, he could have climbed into the upper echelons, which is proven by the *gag* US epilogue.

But they certainly show similar beginnings. They were both 'throw-away' people from the day they were born.

I do agree with your assessment of Zevran's feeling pertaining to Loghain and the GW (if he's once again made to feel as 'nothing'). His betrayal bothered me for a while, but watching that video, and several others, one thing stands out. Zevran, the most lethal character in my game, goes down the easiest of all. Perhaps his thinking is not so much as second time's the charm for the Warden, but for his death-wish. Now I agree, people who ignore him usually have him in his starter outfit, and didn't bother to level him properly, but he really goes down fast.

He bargained that the Warden would protect him. Maybe he also expected to be at least a little useful. If that's not coming, then he is exactly at the point he started out.

[Creature 1]

Some of what Zevran says about the Crows doesn't make much sense to me. Crows do a lot of their work under cover (har-har), which would require that the public not know who they are. But Zevran says being a Crow gets a person wine, (wo)men, and song, and gets the guard to overlook their misbehavior. If the Crows were to admit their affiliation, well, if I were a noble in Antiva I'd get sketches made of every Crow in the city and post them around my mirror so I'd be sure to know to decline that glass of wine offered by the cute elf at a party.

[Jaulen]

*I don't like the height or the chubby bum*



He he he, but there's a study out that shows a shapely bum is like crack cocaine to the male brain (stimulates same portion of brain as drugs). So having a guy look at a shapely larger round bum would be addictive.....AHHA!!!!! THAT's why Zevran likes the dwarves so much better

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It is totally worth playing a dwarf and waiting for the invitation, just for that kiss.

LOL You're like a dwarf pimp, ejoslin. 

I stayed up way too late last night making a casteless dwarf character.  I might actually play this one.  My previous experiment with a dwarf noble didn't go well, but she was a S&S warrior and that is so boring that I think it added to my grief.  This one I made a DW rogue.  I just don't like to play melee any other way.  I'm thinking of a dual-axe build.  It's more of a str/dex thing which will mean we'll be less efficient than if she were a cunning rogue, but it just seems fitting for a dwarf and will give me a little variety.

She's pretty... I don't like the height or the chubby bum, especially in light armor, but I think I can make myself not look.  LOL  I almost think the brand makes her more attractive- I bet Zevran would agree.  They'll have much more of a "click" than an Aeducan would, I think, even though in his own way Zevran was a part of Antivan upper society.

LOL, I am a panderer -- funny thing is I rarely play a dwarf.  I've done both Noble and Commoner, but usually I play a HNF.

I think the femdwarf is very curvy -- she has a small waist and slim, muscular legs.  She looks cute in Dalish armor (doesn't have that awful straight back for some reason).

I like both dwarf origin stories, though.  I think the casteless has the beginning most like Zevran's, but the noble has in some ways as well -- dwarven politics is very much a dog-eat-dog world.  She had to live constantly looking over her shoulder, never knowing who to trust.  

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

Hmm, I don't think he was part of upper society. He was still a slave, but he was on his way up. I mean, the way Ignacio talks to him, phew. Perhaps, in due time, he could have climbed into the upper echelons, which is proven by the *gag* US epilogue.

He moves in upper society, however, which is how he knows so much about the political game.

His betrayal bothered me for a while, but watching that video, and several others, one thing stands out. Zevran, the most lethal character in my game, goes down the easiest of all. Perhaps his thinking is not so much as second time's the charm for the Warden, but for his death-wish. 

Ah, I think you are on to something, especially given what he says if he leaves you to fight Taliesin alone, i.e. that he was leaving Taliesin to his fate, not the Warden.  Gah, how sad!

[Sabriana]

@ Addai
True. I misunderstood then. I'm suffering from Zevran withdrawal I guess. My Laptop is taking its sweet time defragging and disk cleaning.

About Zevran going down really fast in that fight, I also read in one of the vid comments that the player wasn't even aware of Zevran attacking but found his dead body somewhere by the stairs.

Edited to add: That comment about being unaware that Zevran was even in the fight until the PC found his dead body might have been in a post though. I don't remember where I saw it, but see it I did. I don't want to mislead anyone, ya know.

Modifié par Sabriana, 24 février 2010 - 05:05 .

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Addai
True. I misunderstood then. I'm suffering from Zevran withdrawal I guess. My Laptop is taking its sweet time defragging and disk cleaning.

About Zevran going down really fast in that fight, I also read in one of the vid comments that the player wasn't even aware of Zevran attacking but found his dead body somewhere by the stairs.

He had to know he would lose -- just because he had fought along side both.  And how he told Taliesen he was glad it was him who was sent, that it made things simpler -- that is very ambiguous. I can't tell from the video if Zevran even fights -- but I'm not going to check it and see.  Like in the mage circle if Wynne betrays the warden, Irving goes hostile but doesn't fight.

[jenovan]

I. Swear. To. The. Maker. Every time I write a long post, the browser times out when I hit Submit.
*retypes while lunch gets cold*

Creature 1 wrote...

Some of what Zevran says about the Crows doesn't make much sense to me. Crows do a lot of their work under cover (har-har), which would require that the public not know who they are. But Zevran says being a Crow gets a person wine, (wo)men, and song, and gets the guard to overlook their misbehavior. If the Crows were to admit their affiliation, well, if I were a noble in Antiva I'd get sketches made of every Crow in the city and post them around my mirror so I'd be sure to know to decline that glass of wine offered by the cute elf at a party.

I've wondered the same thing.  Perhaps Zevran's statements can be taken to mean that, if you're a Crow, you "know people" who can get you what you want?  Because, yes, while the Crows as an organization are infamous, for any single Crow to stand out seems bad for business. ;D  Hmm, still not sure how that would work in the case of, "Being a Crow gets you respect" -- respect from who? 

Same deal with the tattoos, or at least, the Crow-specific ones.  Zevran tells Leliana his aren't visible while he's dressed.  Does that apply to all Crows, I wonder?  It'd make more sense...  But still, if they were going the seduction route, might that not raise a red flag in the bedchamber? XD;;  Unless tattooing in and of itself is common in Antiva...

.... I had some other point in my original post and now I've lost it. *sigh* maybe I'll come back to it.

Edit: a-ha.  It was about the city guard or whatnot.  Perhaps it's not so much that any one guard recognizes Crows and gives them a pass... Maybe it's that the guards as an organization have someone from the Crows pulling strings?   (That's how we work it in Vampire: the Masquerade, anyway, haha. XD)

Modifié par jenovan, 24 février 2010 - 05:11 .

[Sabriana]

I watched it and I think two others (and I suffered, oh how I suffered), and Zevran went down so fast I couldn't even tell if he even delivered a blow. I saw him draw his weapons in one of them, but he went down almost right after, and I'm pretty sure he never raised them.



How do you interpret the "makes things simpler" line? I would be interested to hear that.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

I watched it and I think two others (and I suffered, oh how I suffered), and Zevran went down so fast I couldn't even tell if he even delivered a blow. I saw him draw his weapons in one of them, but he went down almost right after, and I'm pretty sure he never raised them.

How do you interpret the "makes things simpler" line? I would be interested to hear that.

I'm not sure, given his first attempt, when Taliesen offered to help, Zevran told him "no."  But he didn't know at that time how much ass the Warden actually kicked and may have thought that the two of them had a chance of winning.  He also, if caring for the warden but not adoring her, is heartbroken by Taliesen's death.

It is possible that he wanted to take Taliesen down with him, however.  He had some time to sit and stew over what had happened.

[Addai]

Was thinking about his comment "Oh, they're just old scars. Ignore them as I do and maybe they'll go away." That last line... wow. I don't think he believes it, but what does it mean that he even says it?

[Sabriana]

ejoslin wrote...
It is possible that he wanted to take Taliesen down with him, however.  He had some time to sit and stew over what had happened.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that, especially given the tone of voice, and the facial expression he uses when he says that.

I also thought that it has become clear to him that he'll never be rid of the Crows, that once again Taliesen wants to 'make up something', and look what it got him from the master.

Given the way he goes down without any/much of a fight, he might have also thought that he could kill two birds with one stone and have the Warden and Taliesen kill each other.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Was thinking about his comment "Oh, they're just old scars. Ignore them as I do and maybe they'll go away." That last line... wow. I don't think he believes it, but what does it mean that he even says it?

That he trusts the warden and is willing to be vulnerable with her.  Also, that despite how he brushes things off, maybe he wants her to know that what has happened to him in the past is something that has scarred him deeply  It's an interesting thing when romancing him, how much he trusts the warden.  For someone who is trying to make things clear that things are shallow, he desperately wants her acceptance, and trusts her with a lot of his pain in that particular conversation.  

[Rhinna]

jenovan wrote...

I. Swear. To. The. Maker. Every time I write a long post, the browser times out when I hit Submit.
*retypes while lunch gets cold*

Creature 1 wrote...

Some of what Zevran says about the Crows doesn't make much sense to me. Crows do a lot of their work under cover (har-har), which would require that the public not know who they are. But Zevran says being a Crow gets a person wine, (wo)men, and song, and gets the guard to overlook their misbehavior. If the Crows were to admit their affiliation, well, if I were a noble in Antiva I'd get sketches made of every Crow in the city and post them around my mirror so I'd be sure to know to decline that glass of wine offered by the cute elf at a party.

I've wondered the same thing.  Perhaps Zevran's statements can be taken to mean that, if you're a Crow, you "know people" who can get you what you want?  Because, yes, while the Crows as an organization are infamous, for any single Crow to stand out seems bad for business. ;D  Hmm, still not sure how that would work in the case of, "Being a Crow gets you respect" -- respect from who? 

Same deal with the tattoos, or at least, the Crow-specific ones.  Zevran tells Leliana his aren't visible while he's dressed.  Does that apply to all Crows, I wonder?  It'd make more sense...  But still, if they were going the seduction route, might that not raise a red flag in the bedchamber? XD;;  Unless tattooing in and of itself is common in Antiva...

.... I had some other point in my original post and now I've lost it. *sigh* maybe I'll come back to it.

Edit: a-ha.  It was about the city guard or whatnot.  Perhaps it's not so much that any one guard recognizes Crows and gives them a pass... Maybe it's that the guards as an organization have someone from the Crows pulling strings?   (That's how we work it in Vampire: the Masquerade, anyway, haha. XD)

Antivan politics thrives on assassination and intrigue.  It's a part of their culture.  Zevran hints at this during a conversation or two ("A Crow was almost put on the throne and made king - but that's another story") about Antiva, and if you read the codex about Antiva, the Crows are so efficient at what they do, Antiva does not even keep an army.  "No king is willing to order his troops to assault her borders,and no general is mad enough to lead such an invasion. The attack would likely succeed, but its leaders would not see the day."  The land has a king, but he's basically just a puppet.  It's really ruled by the merchants, traders, etc..and wealth is the determining factor.  So being a Crow is really a prominent position in Antivan society.  If you are high up in the ranks, you are basically the Ferelden equivilent of nobility.  Zevran was on the climb up.  Yes, they had contracts, yes, they dispatched their targets "secretly" but between the codex and conversations with Zevran, it seems such an integrated part of society, that the subterfuge is more of a finesse on their part - no "civilized" merchant prince would EVER consider just killing someone in cold blood - that is MUCH too vulgar...no, it must be done quietly, skillfully, and with class.  That is where the Crows come in

[EccentricSage]

Like with the sex poem... If you act shocked that he's have sex with her before killing her, he points out that she knew he was an Assassin. It puts his attitude about sex with his marks into new perspective, when you think about it. Also, if you argue with him when he calls Haromont a coward for fearing assassins, Zevran looks bemused and says something about people in Antiva accepting death. So it really seems like a lot of his marks probably knew their days were numbered.


Also, I find the point that he may not even be trying to figt back if he betrays you interesting.  That does make sence.  Wouldn't be too sure unless I see one where he's leveled properly and well equiped, though, as a character who isn't is much weeker than one might expect.  I've totaly had no luck making use of Sten, for instance.  But the idea of it...

Zevran's desperation to be valued certainly also explains how he can stay by the Warden's side even if you choose to do the most horrific things despite Zev's protestations.  That makes it all the sadder, though.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 24 février 2010 - 06:00 .

[jenovan]

Rhinna wrote...

jenovan wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Some of what Zevran says about the Crows doesn't make much sense to me. Crows do a lot of their work under cover (har-har), which would require that the public not know who they are. But Zevran says being a Crow gets a person wine, (wo)men, and song, and gets the guard to overlook their misbehavior. If the Crows were to admit their affiliation, well, if I were a noble in Antiva I'd get sketches made of every Crow in the city and post them around my mirror so I'd be sure to know to decline that glass of wine offered by the cute elf at a party.

I've wondered the same thing.  Perhaps Zevran's statements can be taken to mean that, if you're a Crow, you "know people" who can get you what you want?  Because, yes, while the Crows as an organization are infamous, for any single Crow to stand out seems bad for business. ;D  Hmm, still not sure how that would work in the case of, "Being a Crow gets you respect" -- respect from who? 

Same deal with the tattoos, or at least, the Crow-specific ones.  Zevran tells Leliana his aren't visible while he's dressed.  Does that apply to all Crows, I wonder?  It'd make more sense...  But still, if they were going the seduction route, might that not raise a red flag in the bedchamber? XD;;  Unless tattooing in and of itself is common in Antiva...

.... I had some other point in my original post and now I've lost it. *sigh* maybe I'll come back to it.

Edit: a-ha.  It was about the city guard or whatnot.  Perhaps it's not so much that any one guard recognizes Crows and gives them a pass... Maybe it's that the guards as an organization have someone from the Crows pulling strings?   (That's how we work it in Vampire: the Masquerade, anyway, haha. XD)

Antivan politics thrives on assassination and intrigue.  It's a part of their culture.  Zevran hints at this during a conversation or two ("A Crow was almost put on the throne and made king - but that's another story") about Antiva, and if you read the codex about Antiva, the Crows are so efficient at what they do, Antiva does not even keep an army.  "No king is willing to order his troops to assault her borders,and no general is mad enough to lead such an invasion. The attack would likely succeed, but its leaders would not see the day."  The land has a king, but he's basically just a puppet.  It's really ruled by the merchants, traders, etc..and wealth is the determining factor.  So being a Crow is really a prominent position in Antivan society.  If you are high up in the ranks, you are basically the Ferelden equivilent of nobility.  Zevran was on the climb up.  Yes, they had contracts, yes, they dispatched their targets "secretly" but between the codex and conversations with Zevran, it seems such an integrated part of society, that the subterfuge is more of a finesse on their part - no "civilized" merchant prince would EVER consider just killing someone in cold blood - that is MUCH too vulgar...no, it must be done quietly, skillfully, and with class.  That is where the Crows come in

(bolded stuff emphasized by me

I'm with you until that point (or I should say, right after that point ;D).  I could imagine at least some, if not all, of the Crow masters probably hobnob with the nobility just fine.  Whether or not Zevran was really climbing the ladder, though, is open for debate, I think.  After the events with Rinna, that master still called him worthless (more or less), and Ignacio seems to hold him in little regard.  While Zevran might be very, very good at what he does, I don't know that we have enough information to say he was ever going to move up to leadership, IF his life had continued on its original course.  (Of course, we know what happens if the game ends and he goes back to the Crows!) 

Definitely not arguing that the professional assassin gambit is much more genteel than something like, say, the Provings or dueling at the Landsmeet. ;D  Apparently the Orlesians feel the same way XD  But I think Creature's point was, why would you let someone who is a known assassin get that close to you in the first place?  Perhaps a jaded noble or merchant might find flirting with danger amusing, but that can't be true for 100% of targets... can it?  

*now imagining Crow groupies XD*

Edit:

EccentricSage wrote...

Like with the sex poem... If you act shocked that he's have sex with her before killing her, he points out that she knew he was an Assassin. It puts his attitude about sex with his marks into new perspective, when you think about it. Also, if you argue with him when he calls Haromont a coward for fearing assassins, Zevran looks bemused and says something about people in Antiva accepting death. So it really seems like a lot of his marks probably knew their days were numbered.

Hmm, I've never taken that choice with the poem dialogue, but the poem itself was supposed to be her bribe, her attempt to seduce him so he wouldn't kill her.  Did he lead her to believe it would work?  Or was she fully aware she was going to be going out with a bang? Hmm...

Antiva does seem like a nervy sort of place to live (or at least to be important enough for other people to want to kill), though!

Modifié par jenovan, 24 février 2010 - 06:00 .

[ejoslin]

jenovan wrote...

I'm with you until that point (or I should say, right after that point ;D).  I could imagine at least some, if not all, of the Crow masters probably hobnob with the nobility just fine.  Whether or not Zevran was really climbing the ladder, though, is open for debate, I think.  After the events with Rinna, that master still called him worthless (more or less), and Ignacio seems to hold him in little regard.  While Zevran might be very, very good at what he does, I don't know that we have enough information to say he was ever going to move up to leadership, IF his life had continued on its original course.  (Of course, we know what happens if the game ends and he goes back to the Crows!) 

Definitely not arguing that the professional assassin gambit is much more genteel than something like, say, the Provings or dueling at the Landsmeet. ;D  Apparently the Orlesians feel the same way XD  But I think Creature's point was, why would you let someone who is a known assassin get that close to you in the first place?  Perhaps a jaded noble or merchant might find flirting with danger amusing, but that can't be true for 100% of targets... can it?  

*now imagining Crow groupies XD*

Well, Alistair says something to Leliana along those lines -- that the Orlesian bards are so hot it's worth taking a chance (paraphrased, of course).  

[Cuddlezarro]

Sabriana wrote...

If you haven't heard them before, Jenovan, get ready for some laughs. Shale is also one of the companions who seem to come to understand what Zevran is saying, at least on some level. Oghren is the other one, imo. He just more or less says it in the 'Oghren' way.

Oghren and Zevran have a total bromance by the end of their banter sessions

even if he does find me and Zevran relationship a bit...odd

hes more supportive about it than the abominable old hag is though!

[soignee]

I'm going to hide in this thread untilt he "dwarves are ugly lolololol" thread goes away >:|



ALSOOOO ZEVRANITES: I need your help, what does Zev say post dialogue if he loves you? I think my ending is bugged and I got the standard friendship lines

[Addai]

It does seem that in both Antiva and Orlais, it is not only accepted but welcomed that assassins live among the nobility and are given a certain freedom to do their work. For one thing, everyone needs them, especially in Antiva where there is no standing army. For another, the culture is such that the uppercrust seem to welcome "sport" (to borrow that sex god Kylon's term) as a way to add a certain thrill to life. They certainly are more matter-of-fact about it than Fereldans, as they seem also to be more matter-of-fact about sex. It's interesting to contemplate how Zevran would be perceived in his native element. I imagine he is just an ordinary Antivan, though he did seem to be known for his bravado.

As for what the master says to him, Zevran does say that that master had it out for him. Not sure why he let his words get to him so much, in that case?  Probably just the straw that broke the camel's back, after what happened with Rinna.  And as for Ignacio, he only insults Zevran in response to an insult, so I'm not sure how seriously to take it. Although in the end, Zevran is still an elf, and judging by his conversation with Sten about elves in Qunari lands and his comments about why elven assassins are preferred in Antiva (to wh*re them out), his race puts him lower on the rung than others.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 février 2010 - 06:16 .

[jenovan]

ejoslin wrote...

jenovan wrote...

Definitely not arguing that the professional assassin gambit is much more genteel than something like, say, the Provings or dueling at the Landsmeet. ;D  Apparently the Orlesians feel the same way XD  But I think Creature's point was, why would you let someone who is a known assassin get that close to you in the first place?  Perhaps a jaded noble or merchant might find flirting with danger amusing, but that can't be true for 100% of targets... can it?  

*now imagining Crow groupies XD*

Well, Alistair says something to Leliana along those lines -- that the Orlesian bards are so hot it's worth taking a chance (paraphrased, of course).  

Hmm... Now I can't remember if this is from in DA or other fantasy works, but I seem to remember an implication that the nobles would gladly take a chance on having a minstrel who might be a bard in their court, just because maybe they ARE going to kill someone, and that's exciting. ;D   But not all minstrels are bards, and not all bards are assassins (maybe they're there to steal your secrets...).  Someone who's a known Crow would clearly be an assassin... are people really willing to take THAT risk?

I guess I can't comprehend that level of a nationwide lack of common sense, but that doesn't mean it's not possible XD   I suppose I could see it as: once a Crow comes after you, they're going to get you in the end, so you might as well go with it, but in both of Zevran's stories (...take those as you will!), the targets fight to be spared, and the mage almost managed to get away, at least right then.  They didn't seem too resigned to death, particularly the mage.

(Oh, trying to fill in the gaps in game canon... XD)

[Cuddlezarro]

soignee wrote...

I'm going to hide in this thread untilt he "dwarves are ugly lolololol" thread goes away >:|

ALSOOOO ZEVRANITES: I need your help, what does Zev say post dialogue if he loves you? I think my ending is bugged and I got the standard friendship lines

just ignore the hormonal 13 year old playing the game...wait my 12 year old nephew comes off as more mature than that topic creator

[ejoslin]

soignee wrote...

I'm going to hide in this thread untilt he "dwarves are ugly lolololol" thread goes away >:|

ALSOOOO ZEVRANITES: I need your help, what does Zev say post dialogue if he loves you? I think my ending is bugged and I got the standard friendship lines

no, it doesn't change unless you use dialog tweaks.  It's jarring, especially since they make a point of using different lines when you invite him to your tent and he's rejecting you if he's in love and hasn't been there before.

Dialog tweaks fixes this, but in the vanilla game, it is what it is.

Edit: And in dialog tweaks, unfortunately, what is put in there is obviously recycled dialog.  It's better, but it would have been far better had they put in a better line rather than the standard.  Especially since they include details like telling an "in love" alistair, if you're getting married, "not for lack of trying" about having an heir -- it's different if you haven't been to the tent (very funny too, but how many people are really going to see THAT?).  Actually, now I have to test whether his "after sex" talk is different after you two know you're getting married.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 février 2010 - 06:22 .