35177 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Antikristine wrote...

jenovan wrote...
And I was *literally* just thinking this!  I couldn't have said it any better.  Being someone who enjoys extrapolating things (read: relationships) from the generally sparse information revealed in games, Zevran appeals (as the title of the thread asks) to me greatly.  What might be happening between all those conversations in game?   The characters are well-written, as Antikristine says, but I think there are still a lot of gaps that can be filled in by the player's imagination.  The storyline takes place over a year, at least, after all -- the characters have got to be doing something between those pivotal conversations we have in-game.  Not to say that there should have been more convos in game -- it's amazing to have as many as there are! -- but I feel that if you really want to talk about the depth of a relationship, what you get in game are kind of... progress markers, rather than the be-all, end-all of it.

Well, I agree with your observations about how relationships develop through progress makers in games, and that there are a lot of gaps to fill. Adding a well-presented narrative to a game is one of the great challenges in game design, but I must admit that DA:O is a very good attempt at it. Not that the overall plot of the game is anything special, but what is the beauty of the game is how the designers by the use of very simple techniques have created a fictional universe that feels so engaging. The most powerful technique is through character depth and development, and how this is nicely integrated into game progression.

In this respect, Alistair and Morrigan are the best characters, since they tie into the game progression all the way from beginning to end, but another benefit of using the technique of depth/development of character is that different players will have very different interpretations of the characters, because not all players get to know all characters equally well. This explains why the people who HAVE followed Zevran's romance all to the end find him romantically appealing and to be an individual of more depth than we are led to believe once we meet him.

But this is also where the gap-filling becomes relevant. Even ejoslin who is on her 9th playthrough must fill in gaps, because even though she has exhausted all possible Zevran conversations, the game doesn't tell the whole story. This is not, however, only because it is a game, with its limitations in terms of design. All narratives demand that the readers/viewers fill in gaps as they follow the story. That games may have greater gaps to fill, may be an obstacle in most games, but I think that Bioware has done a great job at balancing this. It IS a game, after all, and having the player play through every night at camp while the companions are eating or playing cards or whatever, would be tiresome.

I love reading how other people fill in the gaps as well. Every person here seems to have his or her own "Zevran" and he's different in many ways for all of us.  And yes, if people had to camp after every so many encounters or whatever, it would be a chore.  But with the party banter, you have to assume it's happening even if you're not playing it -- otherwise, some of the dialogs make no sense.  Also, you're not going to have two people fall madly in love after 10 conversations, no matter how intense those conversations are.

The fact is, I think most people playing who pursue the romances do develop at least some actual feelings for the character.  You come to these boards and see people trashing Alistair for dumping them or leaving them at the landsmeet or being mad because of Alistair's reaction to something they did, and many others defending him and his honor.  You have people like me defending Zevran tooth and nail.  I have to admit I don't keep him in the antivan boots or dalish gloves, but I perfectly understand why someone would do that.  And it's amazing that Bioware was able to make a game that is so immersive that so many do grow to care about the NPCs.

Now, my very important question is this:  Why do dwarves have to have the best Zevran kiss?  WHY?

[Sabriana]

Dwarfs do? Who said that?

Pictures, or it's a lie

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Dwarfs do? Who said that?
Pictures, or it's a lie

It's the truth.  Wow, just play a dwarf and see.  It's the longest kiss, and the sweetest, especially since he pulls away a little at the end and looks in her eyes.

[Sabriana]

No fair.

However, I've already planned playing a dwarf. Another first, because usually I don't play gnomes and dwarfs and halflings, etc. I don't know why, I just can't get into the game. But for DA:O I will. I hear too many interesting things about the dwarf origins all over the place to pass that one up.

Now, if I just could decide which dwarf origin to play first... Noble? Commoner? Decisions, decisions....

[Kohaku]

Sabriana wrote...

No fair.
However, I've already planned playing a dwarf. Another first, because usually I don't play gnomes and dwarfs and halflings, etc. I don't know why, I just can't get into the game. But for DA:O I will. I hear too many interesting things about the dwarf origins all over the place to pass that one up.
Now, if I just could decide which dwarf origin to play first... Noble? Commoner? Decisions, decisions....

~Looks at her clock~ Come on now! I want to go home and play a dwarf. I have to see that kiss!

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, here's a bit of an interesting Alistair/Zevran contrast and it illustrates what I mean by Zevran being the PC's equal but Alistair being her subordinate. This assumes that they're in your party. When you go to Redcliff, Alistair's hometown, and Bann Teagan asks him for aid, Alistair tells Teagan it's not up to him. However, when you go to Orzammar and Harrowmont's second asks for your support, Zevran refuses straight out, refutes what the guy says, and points out why the party should not throw their lot in. Of course, the PC can overrule him, but really, I would think that Alistair would have had the same reaction to Redcliff.



*sigh* I hope I don't get the wrath of too many Alistair fangirls with this one . . .

[Sabriana]

That would also make an interesting part of play. Alistair promises to help, and the PC overules him. Especially with Alistair's habit of getting bent out of shape when he doesn't get his way.

[Kohaku]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, here's a bit of an interesting Alistair/Zevran contrast and it illustrates what I mean by Zevran being the PC's equal but Alistair being her subordinate. This assumes that they're in your party. When you go to Redcliff, Alistair's hometown, and Bann Teagan asks him for aid, Alistair tells Teagan it's not up to him. However, when you go to Orzammar and Harrowmont's second asks for your support, Zevran refuses straight out, refutes what the guy says, and points out why the party should not throw their lot in. Of course, the PC can overrule him, but really, I would think that Alistair would have had the same reaction to Redcliff.

*sigh* I hope I don't get the wrath of too many Alistair fangirls with this one . . .

I'm going to have to reload a previous save. I would have TOTALLY agreed with Zevran. The dwarfs down there pucked my final nerve. That's why I did them first on my current playthough. I should have waited until I met up with Zevran.

[ejoslin]

Well, I certainly would have had a lot more respect for Alistair if he had stepped up and said, "Of course we'll help." But his hometown is being destroyed and he says, "But it's not entirely up to me. Of course, we won't get too far without Arl Eamon's support." And yes, Zevran in Orzammar is worth loading a save for.

Edit: In fact, when I played my dwarf noble, I left Zevran in camp because I was hating Bhelen and was going to do all in my power to make Harrowmont king.  Well, turns out, of course, Zevran was right.  Next dwarf noble, I respect Bhelen for playing the game so well and think Harrowmont is a tool.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 janvier 2010 - 04:02 .

[KariTR]

I adore both Alistair and Zevron so while I don't like to use Alistair negatively in order to highlight Zevron's appeal, he makes a good comparison because we are all familiar with him.

Disclaimer out of the way, in the past on these forums I have always avoided taking issue with posts and threads that claim Zevron is sleazy/STD-riddled etc (though clearly this thread hasnt gone in that direction). Not only do I find those type of posts offensive to the writers, I also find them largely irrelevant in a fictional world that is generally accepting of casual sex/multiple partners. Heck, even Alistair gives more approval if youve licked a lampost than he does if you havent.

The act of sex in itself is not sleazy, but a lack of respect in yourself and/or your partner can make it so.
So how do our amours react once we have led them back to our tents?

On the one hand we have "ask nothing of you except that which you are willing to give" Zevron. Not only does Zevron recognise the burden of your task, he acts on it by ensuring he doesnt become another burden. In modern terms, he gives you needed space. I love how he addesses your PC as "Grey Warden" post-sex, it is said with a measure of both affection and respect; Zevron gives respect with a capital R. And despite his background, his (to me) harmless flirting and those-words-that-must-not-be-spoken, Zevron is emotionally mature and sexually confident. He is altogether an unlikely candidate for infidelity.

Then we have Alistair. On my first playthrough - no spoiler forums, never heard of "hardening" -  Alistair didnt dump my PC post-Landsmeet, for all intents and purposes he did that the minute they have had sex. "Arl Eamon wants me to be King," "I have a duty" etc. etc. Yeah, we are a rare and precious thing before sex, after Alistair is the equivalent of a man, having got what he wanted, dashing from the bedroom promising to call. Now that's what I call sleazy  Although that game had altogether an emotionally satifying ending (see below), I honestly and somewhat to my shame actually did feel a little dirty for my PC when that talk took place.

(For balance, in that same playthrough an unhardened Alistair did become King and my PC had enough coercion to ensure she ruled with him. However, we turned down Morrigan's offer, not because of the sex - had that been the only catch my PC would have done all she could to persuade Alistair - but because we werent going to be party to bringing an old god back to life. So Alistair dies to save the hero's life and it was all so hopelessly romantic I cried for hours and will forever be a slave at Bioware's feet).

In summary, a mature experienced and loyal lover who loves you for you, over a young and fickle virgin who loves you because youre his first.
 

Modifié par KariTR, 06 janvier 2010 - 04:03 .

[Namirsolo]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
What I find appealing about Zevran is his strength and amazing lack of bitterness.

So, you're looking for perfection. The one guy that provides a flawless relationsship.

That'd be why I like to keep Zevran as a good friend. Romancing him seems to make him pretty Mary Sue-ish (in terms of the relationship, no obstacles to overcome, his past has little effect, just happiness and flowers). That'd be not appealing to me at all.

Someone who has murdered a bunch of people cannot be considered a Mary Sue. I dislike how this word gets thrown around. I know you said "in terms of a relationship", but come on. Zevran does a pretty good job of disguising it, but he does have some emotional issues because of his past. He is reluctant to admit his feelings for the PC and really will not at all unless she/he chooses the right dialogue options (and this is a direct result of his past, that you say has no effect). That doesn't strike me as a flawless partner. 

If Zevran were a Mary Sue, he would have escaped the Crows without the assistance of the Pc and would be the greatest assassin that the world has ever seen. He would have had to have surrendered himself to the PC because there was no way anyone could beat him. Further, he would have had no part in Rinna's death but still feel guilty for it. Then he would be giving the PC roses *cough cough* immediately after sleeping with her and telling her that he'll love her forever. 

Although Zevran did not actually kill Rinna, he encouraged killing her and ignored her insistence that she was innocent. Then he spit on her. What he did to her WAS actually pretty terrible and is worth feeling guilt over. Mary Sues have never done a terrible thing in their "life". 

[Creature 1]

If we are talking Mary Sue, that would be the female PC, she would have to be beautiful, with lovely clothes, beloved by everyone, everyone acquiescing to her whims as she possesses the power to convince the sternest mind, and without flaw except for an adorable trait such as clumsiness (I'm looking at you, Bella) or fear of public speaking. And she would have eyes like limpid pools, or azure as the sea, or like violets in spring, or maybe one emerald and one topaz. Her hair would be long, raven black, or red as flame, or perhaps like purest gold. Her hero would adore her and move mountains to be with her. If she were in danger or perhaps captured by her archnemesis he would suffer searing soul pain™ and risk life and limb to save her. Her love could turn the coldest man into a paladin, and through healing sex™ all of his hurts would be soothed.



If Alistair were a Marty-Stu he would be born to lead, with an air of quiet authority, broad shoulders, and rippling abs. He would serve his Mary Sue as her champion, and step aside only to her authority. He would seek the throne if she would only sit beside him, although being willing to give up all if she does not want to be queen, and would rewrite the laws of the land to allow her to rule. If she were ever to betray him, he would go mad with rage and sorrow and seek self-destruction by flinging himself into battle against the darkspawn, taking down hundreds single-handed before their combined blows fell him on the bloodstained field.



If Zevran were a Marty-Stu he would be Jander Sunstar and at least six inches taller. He would be tormented by his past sins, seeking redemption, and finding it in the form of the Mary Sue. He would weep at the lives he had taken, and his emotional torment would be assuaged by her love. Physically scarred, he would bear scars upon his soul as well, and his past crimes and sufferings would prey upon his mind. He would be unable to sleep at night, until one night when the Mary Sue comes to him and through healing sex™ makes him whole. From that time he will become her champion, protecting the innocent and fighting for Good until the day when he is cut down in battle, bidding his farewell to the Mary Sue as she cradles his head in her lap, and bends weeping over his body. He will be carried from the field and buried in a tomb that will stand as a memorial to the power of love, and roses will grow upon it in the dead of winter.



Now I have to go shoot myself.

[BlastedLands]

Creature 1 wrote...



Now I have to go shoot myself.

well.... ouchie! i feel that urge to.

[Sialater]

Creature 1 wrote...

If we are talking Mary Sue, that would be the female PC, she would have to be beautiful, with lovely clothes, beloved by everyone, everyone acquiescing to her whims as she possesses the power to convince the sternest mind, and without flaw except for an adorable trait such as clumsiness (I'm looking at you, Bella) or fear of public speaking. And she would have eyes like limpid pools, or azure as the sea, or like violets in spring, or maybe one emerald and one topaz. Her hair would be long, raven black, or red as flame, or perhaps like purest gold. Her hero would adore her and move mountains to be with her. If she were in danger or perhaps captured by her archnemesis he would suffer searing soul pain™ and risk life and limb to save her. Her love could turn the coldest man into a paladin, and through healing sex™ all of his hurts would be soothed.

If Alistair were a Marty-Stu he would be born to lead, with an air of quiet authority, broad shoulders, and rippling abs. He would serve his Mary Sue as her champion, and step aside only to her authority. He would seek the throne if she would only sit beside him, although being willing to give up all if she does not want to be queen, and would rewrite the laws of the land to allow her to rule. If she were ever to betray him, he would go mad with rage and sorrow and seek self-destruction by flinging himself into battle against the darkspawn, taking down hundreds single-handed before their combined blows fell him on the bloodstained field.

If Zevran were a Marty-Stu he would be Jander Sunstar and at least six inches taller. He would be tormented by his past sins, seeking redemption, and finding it in the form of the Mary Sue. He would weep at the lives he had taken, and his emotional torment would be assuaged by her love. Physically scarred, he would bear scars upon his soul as well, and his past crimes and sufferings would prey upon his mind. He would be unable to sleep at night, until one night when the Mary Sue comes to him and through healing sex™ makes him whole. From that time he will become her champion, protecting the innocent and fighting for Good until the day when he is cut down in battle, bidding his farewell to the Mary Sue as she cradles his head in her lap, and bends weeping over his body. He will be carried from the field and buried in a tomb that will stand as a memorial to the power of love, and roses will grow upon it in the dead of winter.

Now I have to go shoot myself.

Now THAT is an apt description of what these characters are not!  LMAO.  Not even the PC's a Mary Sue, really.

[ejoslin]

You are a brilliant writer. I bow to you!

[Zafireria]

I don't like Zevran, he has a charming look I suppose, but I just can't stand him really. Maybe because he tried to kill me, and that he tried to 'charm' his way out of it. I see him as a Don Juan, I didn't kill him I just made him go back to where he came from. His way of being just annoyed me, but again I don't know this character that well. As said earlier I made him go away so I never had the chance to 'get to know him' he might be different if I gave him a chance.



I am more of a Alistair fan, he really 'clicks' it for me lol. Zevran is just annoying.

[ejoslin]

Zafireria wrote...

I don't like Zevran, he has a charming look I suppose, but I just can't stand him really. Maybe because he tried to kill me, and that he tried to 'charm' his way out of it. I see him as a Don Juan, I didn't kill him I just made him go back to where he came from. His way of being just annoyed me, but again I don't know this character that well. As said earlier I made him go away so I never had the chance to 'get to know him' he might be different if I gave him a chance.

I am more of a Alistair fan, he really 'clicks' it for me lol. Zevran is just annoying.

Well, you had one conversation with him and kicked him . . . I'm pretty sure you wouldn't understand his romantic appeal :innocent:

[jenovan]

Creature 1 wrote...

[...]a Mary Sue epic[...]

Now I have to go shoot myself.

That was amazing.
*trying not to giggle out loud*

[Creature 1]

Namirsolo wrote...
Mary Sues have never done a terrible thing in their "life".

Well, sometimes they have, but the writer appears to see no problem with it, and neither does anyone else in the story. 

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
You are a brilliant writer. I bow to you!

Thanks!    Unfortunately serious writing comes much more difficult.  Perhaps because it requires more originality. 

[Catwall]

Creature 1 wrote...

If we are talking Mary Sue, that would be the female PC, she would have to be beautiful, with lovely clothes, beloved by everyone, everyone acquiescing to her whims as she possesses the power to convince the sternest mind, and without flaw except for an adorable trait such as clumsiness (I'm looking at you, Bella) or fear of public speaking. And she would have eyes like limpid pools, or azure as the sea, or like violets in spring, or maybe one emerald and one topaz. Her hair would be long, raven black, or red as flame, or perhaps like purest gold. Her hero would adore her and move mountains to be with her. If she were in danger or perhaps captured by her archnemesis he would suffer searing soul pain™ and risk life and limb to save her. Her love could turn the coldest man into a paladin, and through healing sex™ all of his hurts would be soothed.

If Alistair were a Marty-Stu he would be born to lead, with an air of quiet authority, broad shoulders, and rippling abs. He would serve his Mary Sue as her champion, and step aside only to her authority. He would seek the throne if she would only sit beside him, although being willing to give up all if she does not want to be queen, and would rewrite the laws of the land to allow her to rule. If she were ever to betray him, he would go mad with rage and sorrow and seek self-destruction by flinging himself into battle against the darkspawn, taking down hundreds single-handed before their combined blows fell him on the bloodstained field.

If Zevran were a Marty-Stu he would be Jander Sunstar and at least six inches taller. He would be tormented by his past sins, seeking redemption, and finding it in the form of the Mary Sue. He would weep at the lives he had taken, and his emotional torment would be assuaged by her love. Physically scarred, he would bear scars upon his soul as well, and his past crimes and sufferings would prey upon his mind. He would be unable to sleep at night, until one night when the Mary Sue comes to him and through healing sex™ makes him whole. From that time he will become her champion, protecting the innocent and fighting for Good until the day when he is cut down in battle, bidding his farewell to the Mary Sue as she cradles his head in her lap, and bends weeping over his body. He will be carried from the field and buried in a tomb that will stand as a memorial to the power of love, and roses will grow upon it in the dead of winter.

Now I have to go shoot myself.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. Well played.

[Italik]

Hello everybody! What a great thread!! Finally a good discussion about Zevvie!

First off, I'm new to the English forum but quite active in the French one (yes yes, i'm a froggie from Montreal so I apologize in advance for my poor English). We only have one thread about romances in the game and surprisingly enough, no one but me talked about Zevran's great romance. Actually girls didn't seem to care at all. I was all  Come on girls, this romance is a quest itself and is sooooooo rewarding.

Anyway, thanks for this. It was great to read. I just wanted to add my two cents regarding Zevran's reactions on particular occasions. First off, Zevran doesn't have an accent in French which is very sad and his voice is pretty... hmmm.. funny.

However, there is that one particular moment where one of Zev's line is far more intense in the French version than the English one. It's when he meets Taliesen again. I think the English non-betrayal Zev says: "And I won't let that happen" where as in French, he literally says: "huh... over my dead body!" I know this expression in English could sound a bit agressive but in French, it meant more of a "Ok I will stop the train before it touches a single hair on your head" soooooooooo protective  That was way too cute!

Also I have a question for you guys. I really want Zevran to ask me to choose between him and Ali. But it's always that Ali asking me  Does that mean I must romance Ali first and then, Zevran? Because in that playthrough, I started things up with Zev quite quickly (reaching him to I guess what you call "Adore" on PC, very fast with presents and conversations). Should I start with Ali first so Zev asks me to choose? Should I mention both Zev and Ali were 100% approval when Ali asked me to choose. Thanks a lot! 

[ejoslin]

First of all, it's worth learning French just to get that line (well, almost).  His line is a bit more assertive in English -- "and I'm not about to let that happen," but still, I like "over my dead body," better.  The way you get Zevran to make you choose is to talk to him first when they both are at adore.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 janvier 2010 - 07:35 .

[Zafireria]

ejoslin wrote...

Zafireria wrote...

I don't like Zevran, he has a charming look I suppose, but I just can't stand him really. Maybe because he tried to kill me, and that he tried to 'charm' his way out of it. I see him as a Don Juan, I didn't kill him I just made him go back to where he came from. His way of being just annoyed me, but again I don't know this character that well. As said earlier I made him go away so I never had the chance to 'get to know him' he might be different if I gave him a chance.

I am more of a Alistair fan, he really 'clicks' it for me lol. Zevran is just annoying.

Well, you had one conversation with him and kicked him . . . I'm pretty sure you wouldn't understand his romantic appeal :innocent:

True that  But just that one convo annoyed me. But I will probably 'try him out' one day, lol.

[Italik]

ejoslin wrote...

First of all, it's worth learning French just to get that line (well, almost).  His line is a bit more assertive in English -- "and I'm not about to let that happen," but still, I like "over my dead body," better.  The way you get Zevran to make you choose is to talk to him first when they both are at adore.

Thank you!  And is there a way to make Zevran asking you in your tent first? Is this the massage thingie? Because I really liked when Alistair asks you out of nowhere. I did it on purpose but now I want to try with Zev.